Frederica Freyberg:

Our next guest is nationally recognized in the field of police reform. Noble Wray is the former chief of Madison Police and longtime officer. He’s now a consultant for community and trust-based policing methods across the country. Thank you so much for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So as an expert in police practices and reform, when you saw the images of what happened to George Floyd, what went through your head?

Noble Wray:

First of all, just like many Americans, it was just horrific to see that just emotional — it’s just a lot of emotions going through my head. I feel it from a community member, an African-American male or someone that’s been in policing for now over 30 years, really. And, you know, I felt for the family. It was just a terrible, just a terrible set of circumstances.

Frederica Freyberg:

So putting even a finer point on that, how well do you understand the anger of protesters marching in solidarity over racism and white supremacy as they mourn the death of another black man?

Noble Wray:

I understand it from different angles. I came up in Milwaukee. My parents and my family was very much involved with Father Groppi and the civil rights movement. That rings very strong for me. As a police officer as one that has advocated for police but also police reform, it hit me hard because all of those gains we thought that we were making over the years, you know, and recognizing that trust can be lost in just one instant, just one instant, so that was very difficult. But understanding that talking to community members both here in Madison and across the nation, this is a real issue. It’s been a real issue. And one of the things that I think we mistake, we do by mistake in our profession, is that if there is an absence of tension or if people are not complaining to law enforcement, it sends a signal that things are okay. But in reality, this is a perfect example that things are not okay. The tension was out there. The frustration, the decades of frustration was out there. And then this was the match that really hit at the core of so many people. One of the other things I’d like to say, Frederica, this is different. I’ve been at a lot of protests. Madison is a state Capital. This is not a protest. This is a movement. And a movement happens when the people that are directly impacted by a particular issue, they’re not the only ones impacted. This has gone beyond African-Americans. This is gone to– this is worldwide. The other thing in a movement is when you see a shift in status quo thinking, what I’m hearing out there is people are asking for something different. They’re saying we want a response to police misconduct to happen in a more rapid fashion. We want police officers that are engaged in similar conduct to be treated just like an average citizen would be treated. And it should be. If we’re the guardians of democracy, we should be held to a higher standard.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think those calls will be different this time? Will this be the situation that causes change?

Noble Wray:

I hope so. I hope that the change that takes place, the reform that takes place, goes beyond the moment. And as I alluded to earlier, we get lulled into thinking just because people are not out there protesting that there’s not an issue. Because there are clear issues of reform that need to take place in this profession.

Frederica Freyberg:

Like?

Noble Wray:

Like I think, you know, areas — areas for — I’ll give you an example. I think law enforcement needs to provide disciplinary–automated, disciplinary records to the public. It needs to be transparent. Needs to be done in a way where human resource issues are protected within a department. But I think over time people need to know what’s happening on a disciplinary standpoint. I think Graham v. Connor, the landmark Supreme Court decision that took place in the ’80s regarding use of force, I think those things need to be looked at. I’ll give you just drilling down into that a bit more. There’s a proposal at the state level and that proposal is to look at how do we focus in on the minimal amount of force necessary in a use of force situation. California has passed legislation that is similar to that. What Graham v. Connor did, which there are aspects of it I really like, but it moved us away from focusing in on the minimum amount of force, which I think has more of a moral objective in the operations of police when they’re dealing with the use of force. That is always — when I came on, that was always in the back of my mind. Use the minimum amount of force necessary when you’re engaged in that situation. I think we lost that under the objectively reasonable standard that came out of the Graham v. Connor decision.

Frederica Freyberg:

And so do you support the proposal that exists at the state, a bill by Democrats that deals with use of force? Do you support that provision?

Noble Wray:

I have not seen the bill, so I’m always reluctant to say that I support it in its entirety until I see it. I have just heard about it. And from what I’ve heard, I think it’s going in the right direction. It’s like to see the legislation. But I know that I was tracking California’s legislation on it, and I think they’re going in the right direction with it.

Frederica Freyberg:

The legislation seems fairly brief. It basically says that the primary duty of officers is to preserve the life of all people and use deadly force as a last resort. There are some other provisions, but those are the two main prongs.

Noble Wray:

I think that’s going in the right direction. Again, I followed the California legislation and they had to work that through the language, so that it met the needs. But what it comes down to, one of the things that we have lost as it relates to use of force in policing, is language, statutorily language, Supreme Court language, that reinforces the morality, the ethics, the humanity of policing. And I think that legislation that’s being proposed is trying to get at that.

Frederica Freyberg:

Very briefly, what learned wisdom would you impart on current police officers?

Noble Wray:

Learned wisdom is this, I think policing has really evolved. I think we’ve made great strides. But the learned wisdom is is that it’s constant. We lose sometimes because we get caught up in the day-to-day push of things. I mean, we’re out there fighting fires. It is a difficult job. But the things that are important about our profession, building trust, connecting with people, procedural justice, you know, the competency and the character that it takes to do this job, the guardianship which we’re entrusted with, that takes work and it’s every day and it’s hard to do. And so that is something that we still have to emphasize.

Frederica Freyberg:

We leave it there. Noble Wray, thank you very much.

Noble Wray:

Thank you.