Frederica Freyberg:
The first report from a court-ordered monitor show conditions at Wisconsins juvenile prison continue to be a problem for inmates and staff. In tonight’s look ahead, the state will close Lincoln Hills and Copper Lake in coming years, following inmate abuse and resulting lawsuits. The state agreed to pay nearly $20 million in the case of a girl left permanently disabled when staff there failed to respond to her suicide attempt. A separate class action lawsuit on behalf of several inmates over their treatment, including the use of pepper spray, restraints and segregation, resulted in the court-ordered monitoring at the institution. For reaction to the report, we are joined by Larry Dupuis, legal director at ACLU Wisconsin, which filed that class action lawsuit. Thanks very much for being here.

Larry Dupuis:
Thank you for having me, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:
So the report noted only partial compliance on the use of things like pepper spray and mechanical restraints and segregation. Having filed that lawsuit over the use of those measures, what is your reaction to that?

Larry Dupuis:
Well, obviously we would like to see full compliance, substantial compliance, but that was understood that it was going to take some time. In fact, with regard to pepper spray, there was a timeline over which they were supposed to eliminate it completely so we didn’t expect elimination. The real problem here is the use of — continued use of pepper spray in situations where it’s not necessary to protect youth from physical harm or guards from physical harm. So there’s still continued uses of pepper spray for kids doing things like just hanging their arms outside their cells, which is completely inappropriate.

Frederica Freyberg:
So in terms of other kinds of conditions that were occurring at Lincoln Hills and Copper Lake, including abuse, do you continue to hear of that?

Larry Dupuis:
Not so much the sorts of physical abuse that were occurring a few years ago. There are — we consider use of pepper spray in inappropriate circumstances to be abusive and excessive use of restraints. And the restraint use seems to have completely subsided, not entirely gone but mostly gone. That was particularly troubling. It had just really dehumanized the kids. They felt like animals. And that’s been eliminated with no apparent ill effects. One of the interesting things about the monitor’s report is that it indicates that in spite of declines in the use of these extreme measures, there have been no additional assaults or, in fact, there’s been a reduction in assaults. So that is an indication of what we’ve said all along, and what experts in the field have said all along, is that you don’t need to use these sorts of abusive approaches to try to control behavior. There are other ways to do it.

Frederica Freyberg:
The level of staffing at the institution also stood out in the monitor’s report with roughly a third of positions at the time they were looking at it unfilled. The report calling this “serious, chronic and dangerous.” How concerning are the levels of staffing to you?

Larry Dupuis:
Very concerning. In fact, that has been one of the major problems from the time we filed the lawsuit. I mean, there was an exodus of staff even before then. But there had been a lot of turnover, and now what we’re seeing is, in order to fill the positions, just sort of minimally filling those positions, they’ve had to ask people — not just ask people but essentially compel people to come in and do double shifts. And that just leaves people frazzled. It’s a very difficult job to begin with, and to then have to do double shifts, involuntarily, it makes it that much harder. So there’s just a lot of tension at the facility. Especially, you know, it varies, there’s some — you know, there’s some staff who are amazing and amazingly willing and able to sort of manage the stress, but there are many who are having trouble with that. And it affects the kids as well.

Frederica Freyberg:
What did you think of Governor Tony Evers visiting the prison a week ago? Is it kind of a sign of new attention?

Larry Dupuis:
I certainly hope so. It’s definitely an improvement that at least somebody cares enough at that level to visit the facility and visit the kids. Obviously there are complications that are going to come from trying to get this place closed but that really is what needs to happen, I think. I think these chronic staffing shortages aren’t going to end. I think they really need to — I mean, one of the more encouraging things in the report is actually the reduction in the number of youth at the facility. And that itself may lead to an easier time finding a way to place these kids in smaller facilities when they need to and really looking more seriously at non-incarcerated approaches to dealing with youthful offenders.

Frederica Freyberg:
We need to leave it there, Larry Dupuis, ACLU. Thank you very much.

Larry Dupuis:
Thank you.