Frederica Freyberg:

A strike by nurses at UW Health in Madison was averted this week after an agreement with the hospital to regularly talk about workplace concerns.

Colin Gillis:

We’ve shown up for each other to support one another and build our collective power to improve our working conditions and patient care at UW Health. Today, we celebrate a big step forward. We’re excited to work together with the UW administration to solve the challenges we’re facing. This moment matters for healthcare workers and other working people all across the country.

Alan Kaplan:

For UW Health, for its board, for its leadership, for the organization, it’s always been about the legal question, can we or can we not, after Act 10, recognize a union, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, for purposes of representing our employees in collective bargaining? We wanted to be able to come together in a constructive, productive way, focused on patient care issues, focus on workforce issues, focus on all those things that we all care about. And so in that regard, as Colin was talking about, we were able to find a way that we can bring those that wish to be part of a union to come to the table with us to start talking about these issues.

Frederica Freyberg:

The next step is for the State Employment Commission to rule whether the hospital can recognize and bargain with the nurses’ union. Ultimately the courts will likely decide that question. It’s complicated in Wisconsin, with its Act 10 law that stripped most public unions of most bargaining rights, especially as UW Hospital nurses are outside the provisions of bargaining law and lost their union rights because of Act 10. We turn to Don Taylor, a professor at the UW Madison School for Workers who has extensive experience working for unions. Professor, thanks very much for being here.

Don Taylor:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

So how would you regard this detente that happened this week? Is this a win for the nurses’ union?

Don Taylor:

I think it is, I think it is. The agreement that was reached recognizes that the workers can join the union, can operate as an organization inside the hospital and clinics. While the thornier legal questions are yet to be resolved, the question of whether or not the nurses can get together and have their voices heard collectively appears to have been resolved.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you think this will set some kind of a precedent going forward for other bargaining units?

Don Taylor:

I don’t think directly. I think because the nurses are in kind of a special legal status where they were removed entirely from state collective bargaining law, the other public employees, teachers, highway maintainers and so forth, are still covered by what’s left of Wisconsin public sector bargaining law. And so they wouldn’t be able to do exactly what the nurses have done, but the nurses’ success could certainly inspire them to try and experiment with different ways of approaching the issue.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because we saw like 15,000 nurses in Minnesota walk off the job, go on strike, and they’re in a very different position than the UW Health nurses, is that right?

Don Taylor:

Absolutely, absolutely. Minnesota has a very different set of laws, and actually allows public sector strikes in some cases under certain conditions.

Frederica Freyberg:

So it is your expert belief, though, that UW Hospital could legally bargain with its union nurses?

Don Taylor:

Yes, yes, that is my position. The removal of UW Health from collective bargaining law, unlike other public employees, effectively puts them back in the situation that any employee was in prior to the enactment of collective bargaining law. And in that situation, the absence of a statute doesn’t prohibit voluntary collective bargaining from taking place. It simply doesn’t require it.

Frederica Freyberg:

And yet here we are, looking at potentially the courts having to resolve this after the State Employment Commission makes its ruling, but if the courts resolve it, and that is what UW Hospital administration says should happen, is it not likely that it goes all the way up to the state high court, which is the court that ruled that Act 10 was constitutional. So you know, what does that look like for the nurses’ union going forward?

Don Taylor:

Well, I would assume that they are calculating those risks and the situation does need to be resolved as to their status, which although I have kind of a clear vision of it, is unique. And the court could obviously rule in a way that’s detrimental to what the nurses want, and they’ll have to regroup and restrategize at that point. It does seem that hospital management has taken the position that they are prohibited from engaging in collective bargaining, and they really can’t step forward further than they already have without some clarification of what the statutory responsibilities are.

Frederica Freyberg:

We’ll see how that proceeds, but more globally, I’m understanding that more employees are kind of wanting to join unions, wanting to collectively bargain. What are the conditions, the work conditions that have led to that?

Don Taylor:

Well, I think the pandemic had a lot to do with it. A lot of employers struggled to adapt to the new health and safety needs of their workforces with the related workforce shortage that we’re now experiencing. More employees are being made to do the work of — you know, the same amount of work with fewer people, and that makes it harder to not just keep a workplace safe, but to maintain work-life balance and avoid excessive overtime, so I think all of those things are adding up to additional interest in unions. The younger workforce tends to be more interested in unions and there’s a new poll that the approval of unions has reached the highest level since I think the 1960s, so I think all of that is coming together, and the last thing I’ll say on that is simply that once some groups started having success, that inspires others to move forward. The first Starbucks, for example, that unionized then inspired others to follow the same track.

Frederica Freyberg:

How responsive are employers being to that?

Don Taylor:

Not very. And that historically has been the case in the United States. You know, we’ve seen employers at the very least express their opinion, which they’re allowed to do, that they don’t believe the employees need a union. Others have been charged with what are called unfair labor practices in terms of discriminating against employees for wanting a union or retaliating against employees for wanting a union, which is very common.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Professor Don Taylor, thanks very much.

Don Taylor:

Thank you.