Frederica Freyberg:

Last year Governor Evers appointed Judge Joseph Donald to the State Court of Appeals. At that time, Donald was only the second African-American to serve at that level. This week, he joined liberals on the state Supreme Court and other Wisconsin appeals court judges in calling for making the bench more diverse and acknowledging racial bias within the legal system. We asked Judge Donald to join us earlier this week and we thank you very much for being here, judge.

Joseph Donald:

I am delighted to be here and thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So the open letter that you signed on to says, “We need to recognize the ongoing injustices in our legal system and the barriers that stand in the way of justice.” What are the ongoing injustices?

Joseph Donald:

Well, first let me say this, with respect to the other cosigners of that letter. I am just delighted and very proud of their willingness to step forward and to recognize that we do have a problem in our justice system. The main issue is to ensure that we treat people with fairness and equality. And anyone that has spent any time in the system understands that there are areas that really need improvement. You know, it’s my belief that we have way too many people locked up and locked up for way too long. But we have to try and figure out what are those sort of systemic barriers and processes that are creating this inequity.

Frederica Freyberg:

So what are some examples of the barriers?

Joseph Donald:

Well, I would say the biggest barrier, if I had to put them in sort of broad terms, ignorance is a barrier, denial, and silence. You know, I think there is a need for those who work or who are leaders within the criminal justice system and justice system to speak out. And I think that this letter goes a long way to at least engage and start the conversation. There was a time when judges typically sort of just laid back in the background and never really asserted themselves into the public discourse. But I think that we are now in a new environment, particularly given all of the anger and grief and frustration that the people feel. And so I think there is a need for judges to step forward and to speak to these issues.

Frederica Freyberg:

You talk about ignorance and denial. On whose part?

Joseph Donald:

Well, sort of those who just say that there isn’t a problem. You know, oftentimes people will take the position, well, I didn’t create this problem. I don’t go out and arrest people and bring them to court. You know, they’re brought to my court. But to say that you’re not part of the system and to not ask questions as to how someone comes into the system, why they come into the system. You know, I have to say that as — when I was a trial court judge, I would sit there and routinely see, you know, black defendant after black defendant, and the question ultimately comes, why are we doing this and what is going to be done about it? It isn’t enough to just say, well, you know, if people just stopped committing crimes, they wouldn’t end up in the criminal justice system. But if you look at sort of what are the root causes, trauma, mental health, economic. You know, so those are the things that sort of bring people — the root causes that bring people into the system. I recognized that as a trial court judge when I created the drug treatment court to try and figure out ways to divert people from the criminal justice system. It isn’t all about retribution and punishment. And so I think that there is — there is — we are in a new environment now, and I think people are demanding that we take a more active role in ensuring that there is fairness.

Frederica Freyberg:

We need to leave it there. There’s so much more to talk about, and we appreciate you joining on this. Judge Donald, thanks.

Joseph Donald:

Well, thank you, Frederica. I’m delighted to be on and I look forward to continuing the conversation.