Frederica Freyberg:

A first look tonight at the U.S. House of Representatives’ vote to advance the presidential impeachment inquiry into the public phase. The resolution authorizes the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee to conduct open hearings and allows the president and his attorneys to cross-examine witnesses once taken up by the Judiciary Committee. That committee would then write any articles of impeachment to be voted on by the House. For his part, President Trump again declares this as a witch hunt and Republicans called the vote part of a “Soviet-style process.” The Democratic leader calls the procedures in the resolution transparent and open. The vote was almost entirely along party lines. In Wisconsin, all Republicans voted against the resolution. All Democrats voted in favor, including U.S. Representative Ron Kind of La Crosse. He joins us now by telephone. And thank you for being here.

Ron Kind:

My pleasure, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

Some were wondering whether you would vote yes on this resolution, representing a district carried by Donald Trump in 2016. Why did you vote in favor?

Ron Kind:

First of all, I’ve always been in favor of a full, thorough investigation to get to the bottom of these extremely serious allegations. As a former special prosecutor here in Wisconsin, I know it’s important for us to gather all the facts, all the evidence so we know what an appropriate remedy should look like. But I also remind people, I voted in favor of opening up the Clinton impeachment inquiry back then because I view my role as a co-equal branch of government seriously. We have a Constitutional obligation to make sure that everyone is playing by the rules, including the executive branch. If we don’t do it, no one else will. I think it’s important that we do go forward on the investigation, gather the information in regards to this matter.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to the Clinton impeachment, in the end you voted against that. Am I right?

Ron Kind:

I did. That’s correct.

Frederica Freyberg:

What political concerns do you have, though, with voting to proceed to the public phase given your district?

Ron Kind:

Truth? Zero. I don’t think you can make political calculations with something as serious as this. And I’ve always said impeachment needs to be a last resort, a last option. It’s an extraordinary remedy that the founders put in the Constitution in order to check unchecked presidential power and the abuse of that power. And I would hope at the end of the day that we all can agree as Americans that no president should be shaking down another foreign government to get them to do a political hit job on their rival. And yet that’s the basis of the allegation, that President Trump was using leverage over the Ukrainian president. The withholding of military assistance that Congress already appropriated and where our national security is directly involved since Ukraine was invaded by Russia and also withheld a White House visit. Even more than that, there’s a story that came out that said they were withholding trade assistance to Ukrainian now because of the same reason, to get that government to do a political investigation against the Biden family. That, I would hope, is deeply troubling to all Americans.

Frederica Freyberg:

What have your constituents said to you about impeachment of the president and the process?

Ron Kind:

Well, I think they appreciate the gravity of the allegations. I’ve been having a lot of listening sessions and that’s what I hear. Most of them haven’t even read the four-page whistle-blower complaint. That’s another important point here. This was initiated by nonpartisan career intelligence officials working in the White House who are deeply disturbed by what they heard and what they saw the president doing with this foreign government. That’s what initiated this entire investigation, not some political witch hunt. And those are serious allegations I don’t think any member of Congress should take lightly or turn their back to. And that’s why we’ve had witnesses come forward now, to corroborate what was in the whistle-blower. And they have been. And soon that will be leading to public hearings so the American people can be privy to this testimony firsthand.

Frederica Freyberg:

In your mind is quid pro quo, withholding Ukrainian aid unless that country investigated Joe Biden, a necessary element for impeachment?

Ron Kind:

I never believed it is. I don’t know where that standard came from. It’s certainly not in the Constitution. I think just the fact that any president — listen. Any president that is asking a foreign government to do something, there’s an inherent power imbalance with that to begin with. It’s hard for another government to say no to the United States of America because of our military and economic weight throughout the globe. I’ve never thought that was a valid argument. There had to be a showing of some quid pro quo, something for something. But clearly the evidence is pointing in that direction, that he was withholding the military aid. In fact just remember, that aid was finally released a few days after the whistle-blower report came out. So there was pressure on the White House to do it then because everything was blowing up on them. It’s clear now from the testimony that we’ve heard from a lot of the nonpartisan professional people in the White House with firsthand information that that’s exactly what was going on here. So it is troubling. And I did not go to Congress to impeach this president or any president. The last thing on our minds. But, again, if the Congress doesn’t step forward and act as a co-equal branch and assume our Constitutional responsibility to keep an eye on the president and what he’s doing, no one else will. And he would move forward with unfettered, unchecked power, which could prove dangerous to the American people.

Frederica Freyberg:

You touched on this briefly, but what is your response to Republicans who call this merely a witch hunt or a Soviet-style process?

Ron Kind:

Well, it’s funny that they’re not arguing about the facts and the evidence, that they’re attacking the process. They’re trying to make this seem it’s just a political adventure. Yet there’s been no rebuttal at all with the underlying whistle-blower report or the corroborating witnesses and there have been many of them now coming forward with firsthand information. Now, you can argue whether you think this rises to the level of an impeachable offense, but to deny those facts and to try to divert and obstruct attention from it I think is very dangerous because it sends a dangerous signal to this president and future presidents that it’s fair game now, that we can ask foreign governments to meddle in our election process. That was the one thing that our founders feared the most, when they were creating this republic of ours, was outside foreign interference in our domestic affairs.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about…

Ron Kind:

For the first time, we’ve got a president who seems to be actively courting that, not just with Ukraine, but he’s publically called for Russia and China to do the same thing. He’s asked Australia and Great Britain to conduct political investigations against some of his rivals.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about the GOP argument that Democrats are simply trying to undo the results of the 2016 election or preempt the next one for all those Trump voters that are in your district?

Ron Kind:

Well, again, Fred, it wasn’t our call to start this investigation. This was based on a whistle-blower complaint from intelligence career officers in the White House that brought it to our attention. And it would be, I think, extremely irresponsible if we didn’t look into these allegations, if we didn’t interview witnesses to find out what was going on here. So, again, they’re trying to make this into some political football, but we’re responding to a nonpartisan whistle-blower complaint and it was our duty to follow up on that and I think it would be unpatriotic if we didn’t do it.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We need to leave it there. U.S. Representative Ron Kinds, thanks very much for joining us.

Ron Kind:

My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:

We asked Republicans in the Wisconsin delegation to join us. They declined. House Judiciary Committee Member Republican Representative James Sensenbrenner released a statement on the House impeachment resolution saying, “An unfair process can only lead to an unfair result and this entire process,” he says, “has been fundamentally unfair to the president. Just as no American including the president is above the law, no one is below it, either. Yet Speaker Pelosi and Chairman Schiff continue to rob the president of his due process rights. The rules outlined in today’s resolution,” he says, “fall embarrassingly short of any objective fairness and will further damage the credibility of our institution.”