Frederica Freyberg:

In tonight’s closer look, another piece of action from the State of the State Address. Governor Evers says he will sign an executive order to create a nonpartisan redistricting commission, which will draw what he calls the people’s maps.

Tony Evers:

A nonpartisan redistricting commission will consist of the people of our state, not the elected officials, not lobbyists, not high-paid consultants. The people’s map commission will visit every Congressional district, hear directly from folks across our state, and draw fair, impartial maps for the legislature to take up next year.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

For some insight on the challenges ahead for the governor’s new redistricting commission, we turn to a national authority and expert witness, including in Wisconsin’s case. Ken Mayer, professor of political science at UW-Madison. And thanks very much for being here.

Ken Mayer:

Good to be with you.

Frederica Freyberg:

What was your reaction when you heard that from the governor?

Ken Mayer:

Well, this is a symbolic attempt by the governor to create an alternative proposal. It’s a little different than what he proposed last year, which is to create a formal statutory process that would generate a map that the legislature would have to consider. This is more of a blue ribbon commission. The details of which we don’t actually know just yet. But the idea would be to create an alternative map proposal that could be lined up against whatever the legislature put together. So you’re looking at a proposal and then an alternative to that proposal.

Frederica Freyberg:

Here’s what Senate Majority Republican Leader Scott Fitzgerald said about this. He says the governor proposed something he believes to be unconstitutional, saying he knows the legislature has the responsibility per the Constitution to not only draw the maps but the Congressional maps as well. What about that?

Ken Mayer:

Well, there’s no question that the Wisconsin Constitution places authority to draw the maps with the legislature. And even the nonpartisan statutory commission that the governor proposed last year would create a proposal that the legislature would have to enact. And the blue ribbon commission is one step back from that. It’s simply creating an alternative with presumably the hope and expectation that it might generate some public pressure, so that legislators would have an opportunity or maybe an incentive to reconsider what they were doing. I don’t think it’s true in any sense that this is an unconstitutional use of [unintelligible] of legislative powers just creating a different map that the legislature might look at.

Frederica Freyberg:

So other laws wouldn’t have to be enacted to have a commission draw an impartial map?

Ken Mayer:

No, the governor, as governors do and political executives do in a lot of places, the 1990s Governor Thompson created a blue ribbon commission on campaign refinance reform. It’s a very common technique for an executive to try to highlight an issue to generate public support or in this case probably to focus public support. But I don’t think there’s any meaningful expectation that this would create a proposal that anybody would insist with some teeth that the legislature would have to consider.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let’s take a look at what the Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce had to say about the governor’s plan. They tweeted out saying, complain all you want about so-called gerrymandering. The reality is that voters outside Dane and Milwaukee vote for Republicans, saying they’d love to see how you divide this map into 99 equal population districts without a GOP majority. What’s your response to that?

Ken Mayer:

That’s an argument that was made in the Wisconsin litigation that the partisan imbalance, the fact that in years that Republicans actually got a minority of the statewide vote, would actually get much more than a majority of seats- 61, 62, 63 seats. And the argument is it’s just a consequence of how people are sorted. The Democrats are concentrated in cities, Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Superior. And Republicans are more efficiently distributed. There’s a grain of truth in that, that Wisconsin — that Democrats tend to — or probably the way to phrase it is that cities which have larger populations tend to be more Democratic. But the notion that that explains the entire scope of the — of the partisan effect of the gerrymandering — I mean it’s ludicrous that the legislature admitted in court that they were trying to create the maximum party advantage, that if you look at the map and district after district, the Democrats are not only packed put also cracked. So that they are situated in districts that have 53, 55, 57% Republicans. So it’s really a rhetorical argument that simply doesn’t reflect the reality of what the effect of geographic sorting might be.

Frederica Freyberg:

What are the best models for nonpartisan commissions drawing maps?

Ken Mayer:

That’s the question, isn’t it? That this is a partisan process. I think one of the models that people are looking at is Iowa, where in Iowa it’s a state agency that looks at — looks at solely population. They are not permitted to look at any election returns. They’re not permitted to look at where incumbents live. There are some specific requirements in Iowa, particularly how congressional districts have to be, have to be drawn. This agency, sort of their equivalent of the Legislature Technology Services Bureau here. It draws a map. The map goes to the legislature and the legislature can either pass it or not pass it. If they don’t pass it, it goes back to, for revisions. But every decade since this system has been created, the map has gone through with no litigation, with very little controversy. And so I think that was what the governor was trying to get at last year. But one of the ways that is common is to not allow election returns to be taken into effect — taken into account. And that’s very difficult because you can create a process that says you can’t look at this. But it’s hard not to because the data are there. But there are a number of alternatives to having a legislature drawing the map in a way that is designed to secure maximum party advantage.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We need to leave it there. Ken Mayer, thanks very much.

Ken Mayer:

Happy to be with you.