Frederica Freyberg:
Now to a conversation we started on last week’s program and a closer look at diversity in the workplace. Now, that conversation last Friday was just getting good, or should we say really getting good, when time ran out. As just mentioned, we are talking about diversity and inclusion in the workplace. First, we ask why in self-described progressive Madison are people of color looking to move away?

Kwasi Obeng:
Madison can be a welcoming city, but then if we can’t answer as to why families choose to leave and do not feel comfortable being here just because they don’t see a whole lot of people advancing who look like them or whatever the case is, I mean that’s an issue.

Frederica Freyberg:
We kick off round two on this topic with Samba Baldeh, the Madison Common Council president, and Tania Ibarra, chair of the board of directors for the Latino Professionals Association. Thanks to both of you for being here again.

Samba Baldeh, Tania Ibarra:
Thank you for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:
So as to that question about Madison, does the culture of whiteness in this city, in our state, kind of deter people of color from coming here or staying here? First to you, Samba.

Samba Baldeh:
So I think it is more about belonging and being able to connect with the people that you interact with on a daily basis. Whether it’s at work, outside of work, if you are a family person, are your kids also connecting at school or after school? So all these things are one reason why the schools, the local government, communities, we are all interconnected in this diversity effort. And so if you interest talent to come to the city and so they can go to work and maybe find a little bit of diversity, but after work program, what is happening? So we all have to make sure not only are we working to diversity our workplaces, but even after that, what other services are being provided to our communities so that they feel that they belong. I mean, where do I go after work? I go to a bar, doesn’t look like myself. I go to an open space like the park, the programming is mainly geared towards, you know, the locals and things like that. So these are all issues, I believe, that takes people out of the city after they are being interested here. So I think this is where the city of Madison comes also, where we, the parks department, make sure that programming within the parks accommodates everybody. What are the services that public spaces do provide for people of color so that they go there and feel like this is also their community? But even after programming, what kind of businesses do we promote within the city? What services are we providing to individuals to be able to start businesses that really attract a different talent? We all live life differently. So we want to have those elements of the way we live life within our community. I think that is one reason why after a while people decide to move. Even if they go to school and in many cases also when you talk to people who are not here, they are feeling like looking at the numbers of what is really happening, this is not a community where I can feel I’m a part of. So there’s a lot of work that needs to be done from local government to state government to county government, but also to corporations and even our communities. In a community are they feeling left out? They also find a way to integrate into a community to the extent that we have a culture that is reflective of who we are and where we are coming from.

Frederica Freyberg:
Tania, that question to you as well.

Tania Ibarra:
I think it’s twofold. The first one which Samba covered very well is the sense of community and belonging into the area that you live and what is the meaning of life. You know, you can go to work 8:00 to 5:00, but then outside of that what does that mean? And within that, when you are part of a minority, what is my sense of community? And secondly, I think it’s also opportunities in terms of the workplace and how people get promoted or the growth of a person. This is actually a topic that’s very near to my heart because if I think about my cohort of Latino professionals, when I first came to Madison in 2006, there was probably only two who were still here. And I have great connections with the people who moved away. Chicago. I’ve been to visit them and where they moved to, Texas, all over the place. But I think it’s both. They move because of better opportunities for work and they may have felt stuck.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about this issue of Madison being so progressive and feeling so progressive and yet being a community that turns out not to be welcoming in the way of integrating people of color?

Tania Ibarra:
So I think what I like to think about is the difference of belief versus practice, right? We like to believe that we are welcoming, that we are open to other ideas, that we are open to other cultures and that we like to make everybody feel that they belong into our community. But then in practice what does that look like? You know, what does it mean to be an inclusive community? How do you welcome other points of view? And how do you get interest in other cultures? I think there’s a lot of — there is a lot of lack of comfort of entering discussions about different lifestyles, different cultures, like people are afraid to get curious because they don’t want to ask the wrong question, the wrong way. And so I think it’s that gap.

Frederica Freyberg:
So how do we fix that?

Samba Baldeh:
So also I think it also has to do with policy. So I think the city by itself, me and you and all the individuals who live in the city, are very liberal. How does that translate into diversifying our communities? It has to do with policies. It has to do with corporate initiatives and things like that for people to really feel like this community that calls itself diverse is actually diverse. So I think there are a couple of ways to fix it. City government must be open and be willing, for example, to have something in place that promotes this diversity. But at the same time retention, how do we keep these people when they come here? The other way corporations also have to find a way not only to bring in talent, but provide that environment where the talent, like she was saying earlier, promotion and development and all this kind of stuff.

Frederica Freyberg:
In fact, let’s take a listen to another piece of sound that we gathered in the field about this issue of people of color in the workplace and their ability to move up.

Yusra Murad:
Make sure that there are people from under-represented groups like in your spaces, in positions of leadership, not just the token, you know, brown person so that when — you know, when the photographers come, you can shove them to the front.

Frederica Freyberg:
So how do you change how people of color are able to climb the proverbial ladder?

Tania Ibarra:
So actually we focus on what’s at the top. But the reality is we have to look at the entire pipeline. So one of the first hardest things to do for anybody is to get that first supervisor/manager role. And the discrepancy starts that starts early in the career. So if we — if there is a study done every year that measures the pipeline, at the entry level you have the same amount of women, the same amount of men, and they also measure people of color in there. I invite everybody to go check it out. In the first cut, there is 134 men that get promoted over 100 women. The same discrepancy is managed for women of color and people of color. Then you get to the director level and go get to the executive level. So as you move from each step of the ladder, that pool gets smaller and we can’t expect to have the right representation at the top if we are not looking at what are we doing with that first promotion. Why do 34 more men get promoted or why do more white people get promoted proportionally?

Frederica Freyberg:
Very briefly, Samba, with just 20 seconds left, what’s your response to that idea of why this ladder to the top is restricted?

Samba Baldeh:
So I think a couple of things. For example, if you look at it from the city perspective, we have these labor laws or labor contracts that are out there. Say, for example, if me and you were to take an exam for a promotion and you’ve been there 20 years and I’m just coming this year. Let’s say I get 95, you get 85. But you get 20 points because you’ve been there for 20 years. So that alone gives you that many advantage. Even though you may be performing very poorly and on the exam, I’m the one who is performing better, but I still cannot get that position. So we have to find a way to break those barriers. So the other thing I think is in the corporate world, leadership must be very deliberate in picking people of color or minority groups into leadership. So what happen is my culture is different from your culture. So what you see as efficiency or lack of it is different from the way I see it. Sometimes we take this deliberate and move people forward and give them a chance. But sometimes it’s not only their performance, but how do they bring in other people to perform? Ii mean studies show that diverse communities perform better than communities that are not diverse or workforce that is not diverse. It’s got to be deliberate from a corporate perspective and city and local government must have to find ways to really break these barriers that prevent people of color or minority groups from moving up the ladder.

Frederica Freyberg:
Thank you again for this second conversation.

Tania Ibarra, Samba Baldeh:
Thank you.