Frederica Freyberg:

Never a dull moment when it comes to politics in Wisconsin, from new voting maps to the influence of Donald Trump in elections past and future. We just had to pull our political panel of two together to talk about it. Republican strategist Bill McCoshen is here along with his liberal counterpart, Democratic Scot Ross. Thanks to both of you for being here again.

Bill McCoshen:

Good to be with you.

Scot Ross:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

With the dueling voting district maps coming out from Republicans in the Legislature and the governor’s People’s Maps Commission, the courts will, as we said, almost certainly have it. Bill, first to you. What do we think the state Supreme Court will do when it lands in their lap?

Bill McCoshen:

Well, I don’t think there’s any question, Fred, that it is going to end up in the courts. Let’s make a couple quick points. All the maps that have been released so far, whether it’s the governor’s People’s Commission or the GOP maps or even most of the maps submitted by citizens groups have the Republicans maintaining their majority in the Legislature in both houses. There’s really no way to draw maps where Republicans are not in control of the Legislature after the 2022 election. So let’s start there. Secondly, it’s common in Wisconsin for maps to end up in the courts. Only one time in the last 40 years has not happened, and that was in 2011. Ultimately the courts, all the way up to the United States Supreme Court, said that the maps that the Republican Legislature and the Republican Governor Scott Walker approved were fine. They had to make a couple minor changes in the Milwaukee area, but that was it. So I think you’re going to see a long, protracted battle in the courts on this and there’s a lot more to come.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, do you think that the Republican maps were, “fine”?

Scot Ross:

Absolutely not. Wisconsin deserves fair maps, because when we have rigged maps, Wisconsin pays the price when it comes to education, health care, equality and wages, just to name a few issues. The fact is, just like ten years ago, Republicans went behind closed doors with no public input and produced these maps, which are unconstitutional and which are unlawful and which rig the system in favor of Republicans. Once again, it’s gerrymandering 2.0. I’m going to give you one example of how bad the Republican maps are. Dane County grew by 15% in population. The average in the state was 3.6%. Under Robin Vos’s maps, the Assembly Democrats continue with 12 seats in Dane County. We don’t have any expansion of potential seats in a place where we grew population four times what the average growth was. Governor Evers is good to say that he’s going to veto these maps because they’re wrong, and his People’s Maps Commission did what the process should be, which is transparent —

Bill McCoshen:

No.

Scot Ross:

— fair and equitable. And the fact is —

Bill McCoshen:

That’s false.

Scot Ross:

— I want to echo what Gordon Hintz said, Dem leader. The level of contempt by Wisconsin Republicans for democracy and for the people of our state continues to amaze me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Quick comment to Bill and then I want to move along.

Bill McCoshen:

The initial People’s Commission maps violated — were a clear violation of the Voting Rights Act. They shrunk the number of minority districts from six to two. Even Lena Taylor, state senator who is the leading candidate to be the Democratic candidate for lieutenant governor, said that they were embarrassing and irresponsible to be released. The People’s Maps were drawn in private. They get released in public. They failed on every measure.

Frederica Freyberg:

There is so much to talk about here and it’s going to be going on for a while but I want to get to this. Former President Donald Trump threw former Wisconsin Congressman Sean Duffy into the race for governor this week. Bill, there’s some competition for you for Rebecca Kleefisch. What do you think?

Bill McCoshen:

I would say this. Whoever Donald Trump endorses in Wisconsin will win the primary. I mean clearly Rebecca Kleefisch is out front. She’s been out working hard for two years on this. But if Donald Trump endorses someone else, whether it’s Sean Duffy or Eric Hovde, John Macco, maybe Tommy Thompson, who knows, that person will instantly jump to the front of the line. So Donald Trump controls — his supporters control all of the county parties statewide and what he did last Saturday froze this race until another candidate emerges.

Frederica Freyberg:

Bill, are you saying Tommy Thompson is going to throw his hat in the ring?

Bill McCoshen:

I wouldn’t rule it out but I don’t think he’s currently considering it, but don’t be surprised if there’s one for the thumb coming later on.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wow.

Scot Ross:

Don’t you dare Bill.

Bill McCoshen:

Donald Trump just endorsed an 88-year-old guy for U.S. Senate in Iowa. So don’t rule it out.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, that’s really ripe for discussion. But, Scot, I want to ask what you make of Donald Trump reaching out to pluck Sean Duffy from New Jersey to run for governor in Wisconsin.

Scot Ross:

Let me just say that the Tommy running for an office is the story out of every Republican convention since I moved here in 1997 and that was when he was still running. Radical Rebecca Kleefisch begged Trump to get involved. She embraced his big lie. She embraced his do-nothing approach on COVID and embrace anti-vaxxers. She even is endorsing the plan — if she becomes governor she will sign a bill that allows the Republican Legislature to overturn our elections. This is a huge, huge slap in the face because Sean Duffy isn’t even in politics. He sold his house in Wisconsin. He lives in New Jersey. Lastly, Rebecca’s mentor, Scott Walker, has groveled and genuflected at Trump’s feet every moment since 2016 and Walker’s kid is working for Kleefisch and he still out of nowhere came and said let’s make Sean Duffy the nominee. The fact is whoever is the nominee is going to be a radical, out of touch, extreme and dangerous to the people of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

I don’t have a lot of time left but I want to get to the Michael Gableman investigation into the last election. It’s off to a flying start. But, Bill, is the criticism he and Speaker Vos are getting for the process just partisan blowback?

Bill McCoshen:

I would hope that the Gableman investigation and the Janel Brandtjen hearings and her report from her elections committee would merge sooner rather than later. They can’t be on two separate tracks. If Republicans want to get some kind of outcome out of this, those two processes have to be merged. They can’t be separate.

Frederica Freyberg:

Scot, what’s your comment on the Gableman investigation?

Scot Ross:

Biden won Wisconsin. Every indication shows it’s been proven time and time even. Even Trump’s DOJ said these were the most secure elections in history. Vos and Gableman are embarked on a $700,000 public taxpayer-funded approach to the “Big Lie.” Gableman is a national embarrassment with his buffoonery. Let’s just start with him not knowing how elections work. The things he sent out, the going back and forth on his subpoenas and then finally comparing two reporters at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel to Nazis. This guy’s a clown. He’s a buffoon. He proved when he was Supreme Court — when he was running for the Supreme Court that he was a racist and he’d so anything to win. This is exactly what this is and Robin Vos should be embarrassed for putting this guy in charge of this sham fr-audit.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wow, notwithstanding that, I want to circle back super quickly with about 15 seconds left to Bill and ask you about Tommy Thompson once again. Are you telling us that he is going to run for governor?

Bill McCoshen:

I’m not telling you that. If he got recruited, you know, I think there’s a possibility he would seriously consider it. But I think he would also defer to Sean Duffy or John Macco or potentially Eric Hovde if one of those guys got in. I think there will be an alternative to Rebecca Kleefisch by the first of the year.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. We leave it there. We will get back with you guys as soon as we can. Bill McCoshen, Scot Ross, thanks a lot.

Bill McCoshen:

Thank you.

Scot Ross:

Thanks.