Breaking the Deadlock

TANG: A wise man once said, "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them" in our brave new world of online sports gambling.

Why do you feel so compelled to gamble as a way to get rich?

STEPHANIE RUHLE: We're talking about teenage boys with undeveloped brains.

ED ELSON: Young people are more addicted to these platforms than ever before.

No longer do they have to go to the casino.

They got one in their pocket.

JONATHAN COHEN: The legalization of sports gambling just in the last few years has been unlike anything we've ever seen.

SHAWN FLUHARTY: We could have guardrails or we could have blindfolds.

Blindfolds is pretending that gambling does not exist.

DANIEL WALLACH: We don't want a profit on the backs of problem gamblers.

Brother, please.

The FanFuels of the world would not exist but for their biggest losing customers.

You're paying for the price of entertainment.

A.I.

is going to change everything about the way that people predict sports events.

It doesn't sound good to me at all.

I'm not buying it.

I love the prediction market.

This is where our gambling universe is headed.

I think we should stop calling it prediction markets.

It's sports gambling.

They are actually lobbying against my efforts to protect consumers.

FLUHARTY: You keep your federal hands off my state legislation.

(laughter) Well, with all due respect, Governor, no.

ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

AARON TANG: Panelists, welcome.

Over the next hour, we will confront all sorts of hard choices in our brave new world of online sports gambling.

Gambling can bring joy to a lot of people, but it can have other effects too, especially for young men's health.

We'll start our story in the state of Middlevania, at a Sunday family dinner at your house-- Stephanie Ruhle and Tiki Barber.

And you're joined by Shawn Fluharty.

Shawn, Stephanie is your sister.

And Stephanie and Tiki, you have a son, Jeremy.

Jeremy is 21, good kid.

Hit some bumps in college, dropped out.

He's now living at home, working part-time at Star Cups.

(laughter) But Jeremy brings up a topic that's near to many of your hearts.

It's this year's March Mayhem college basketball bracket.

Shawn, are you excited for March Mayhem?

Very.

Family tradition.

TANG: Family tradition.

Tiki?

I'm in.

- Stephanie?

20 bucks, we can swing it.

TANG: We can swing it, okay.

You're Venmo-ing Jeremy your $20.

When he calls out, he says, "I have an announcement.

"I got Mom a surprise early birthday present.

A brand new zero-gravity massage chair.

Top of the line."

Fantastic, thrilled.

Though I'm worried, where did he get the money?

Mm.

Would you say something to him?

I mean, it's sort of complicated, right?

Our son is down on his luck, he left school.

I'm sure he's been in somewhat of a shame spiral over it.

And to assume he got the money in some unsavory way would only make him slide down that spiral more.

And I don't really want to put him in that position, so I think I would accept it at face value.

TANG: Okay.

Ed Elson, you have an up-and-coming podcasting career focused on young men, finance.

Tell us what it might be like to be Jeremy right now, living at home, unsure about his future.

Is it hard for him?

I would assume it'd be very hard, but I think he's in the same position as a lot of young men.

A lot of young men are living at home right now, with their parents.

He probably took out a credit card.

He probably used some "buy now, pay later" app to pay for it.

But I would assume that he's probably trying to make the best of a bad situation.

He wants to feel something good, He wants to make his mom happy.

- Okay.

Later that night, Jeremy is sitting in his room, scrolling on his phone.

He sees that he has $800 in his Venmo account.

Money from his family members for the March Mayhem bracket, and he agonizes.

But by the end of the night, he's cleaned it all out, transferred all of it to his sports gambling app.

It's the next day.

The scene is a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a brand-new community mental health center.

Shawn Fluharty, you're there because not only are you Stephanie's brother, you are also Middlevania's sitting governor.

Congratulations.

- Thank you.

A lot of hard work went into that.

(laughter) I bet.

And Daniel Wallach, you are Senior Vice President of Regulatory Affairs for FanFuel, the nation's leading sports gambling operator.

And the two of you are here because this community health center is the product of your hard work.

Five years ago, you passed a bill to legalize sports gambling here in Middlevania, and you dedicated the tax revenues for community health centers, just like this one.

Richard Blumenthal, you're also at this ribbon-cutting ceremony.

You are Middlevania's senior Senator in the United States Senate.

Tell us, what concerns you might have if sports gambling was legal here?

Sports betting is a great source of revenue.

It'll enable mental health centers to be built, but at the same time, it will create more need for those mental health centers, because it can be highly addictive, particularly for young men.

And so, what you need is to use some of that revenue to do treatment and research about the problems of addictive gambling, and you really need effective state legislation.

FLUHARTY: I agree with that, and that's why we did just that.

We made sure consumer protections were in place, because you know where consumer protections are not in place?

The black market, the unregulated market.

But our market now, in Middlevania, is protecting the consumers and it's providing that revenue.

And also, Senator, while you've been a great advisor to me through the years, you keep your federal hands off my state legislation.

(laughter) Well, with all due respect, Governor, no, we're not going to keep our hands off.

(laughter) And the reason is because your legislation was totally ineffective in failing to keep up with a lot of the technology that now FanFuel is able to use.

TANG: Mr.

Wallach.

Yeah, I mean, one of the important safeguards of a regulated sports gambling industry, particularly in a state like Middlevania, is that there are consumer protection, responsible gambling protocols that the offshore market doesn't provide.

State regulation is the ultimate consumer- protection-friendly measure, and it is a compromise.

Obviously, the gambling companies want to make as much money as possible, but we also realize that we don't want our customers to become addicted.

TANG: Jonathan Cohen.

You are the nation's leading expert on sports gambling.

You literally wrote the book on this industry.

My life must be amazing.

(laughter) TANG: I'm wondering what this means in real terms for young men like Jeremy.

So... the legalization of sports gambling just in the last few years, has been unlike anything we've ever seen when it comes to gambling.

Gambling has of course been a part of human history forever, but gambling as much money as you want on Malaysian women's doubles badminton on your phone in the middle of the night has never been a part of our never-ending dance with the forces of chance.

Is that an option for me?

It is a legal option in the state of Middlevania, thanks to the work of Governor Fluharty.

(laughter) And so, what, what-- what he might deem as effective and sufficient consumer regulation and what the FanFuels of the world probably dub sufficient consumer regulation, I would dub as an insufficient amount-- specifically of what I would call friction of insufficient speed bumps along the road to help young men like Jeremy, for example, gamble and gamble safely without gambling more than they can afford or than they intend.

I want to get back to the ribbon-cutting ceremony, because Senator Blumenthal, one of your aides pulls you over and says, "Great news.

"A FanFuel representative has just told me "they would like to donate $1 million "to this community health center.

"To name it in your honor, "the Richard Blumenthal Community Health Center, brought to you by FanFuel."

(laughter) What do you say?

Thanks, but no thanks.

- No thanks.

- And, the reason is, they are creating the problem.

And as good as it sounds, it is fraught with peril for people to have excessive trust in this industry.

They are actually lobbying against my efforts to reform and protect consumers.

They are sending... armies of lawyers and lobbyists fueled by millions more dollars than they're putting into mental health.

TANG: Governor Fluharty, Senator Blumenthal said no.

They would like to donate, FanFuel, $1 million, to name this community health center in your honor.

The Governor Shawn Fluharty Community Health Center, brought to you by FanFuel.

What do you say?

$1 million.

- I'd rather not have my name on it.

- Say it again?

I would rather not have my name-- I don't think political... That's the choice they're offering you.

I don't think politician's names should be all over buildings, but that's a subject for another day.

But I will say this-- TANG: So, are you a no on the $1 million?

No, I'll accept the $1 million... - With your name on it.

- ...because they're involved, they've brought jobs.

And when we ran this legislation, we fully understood at the time, Senator.

We understood that we could have guardrails or we could have blindfolds.

And blindfolds is pretending that gambling does not exist.

Guardrails understands that it does and it should be regulated and it should be safe.

And that's exactly what we've done in Middlevania and now we have FanFuel as a partner in our state contributing to our community.

Okay.

And just like that, Shawn Fluharty Community Health Center brought to you by FanFuel opens.

Alan Levy.

you are the founder of Predict It A.I., a leading tech startup that brings the power of A.I.

to tell the future, including the future of sporting events.

FanFuel's C.E.O.

has asked you to give a presentation about what A.I.

is capable of.

A.I.

is going to change everything about the way that people predict sports events and people predict future events in general, because we can ingest almost infinite amounts of information, much more than a single human being, and give the FanFuel customers the best possible information, so that they can make the most informed decision.

We're not saying that we're building a crystal ball, but we're not saying we're far from it.

TANG: Let me just get this straight.

You can take A.I.

to predict almost anything.

You can predict what our customers, what our users are going to want?

LEVY: They can definitely do that, and, it's going to be very, very important for users to understand not only how to interact with FanFuel, but also to be able to get the best quality information so that they can make the best predictions.

Because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

At the end of the day, information is power, and the FanFuel fans want the most power.

Okay.

See... RUHLE: Wait a minute.

TANG: Yes.

- I hear that we're talking about perfecting gambling, but we're leaving out the idea of not gambling.

If we weren't focused on perfecting gambling and making it superstar fantastic, maybe we could roll it back, and then our son, when he's in his room looking at that $800, that wouldn't be offered to him on his phone.

He'd potentially say... - There goes my sister again.

(laughter) What?

- There goes my sister.

TANG: There goes your sister.

- Yeah, we fight a lot.

(laughter) TANG: Mr.

Levy, FanFuel's C.E.O.

says "I would like to pay you "and Predict It A.I.

a bunch of money.

"We'll give you access to all of our users' data, "betting histories, bank transactions, you name it.

"And you'll predict for us "all the games they might want to bet on, "when they'll have money in their bank accounts, "so that we can ping them "with just the right notifications on their apps to encourage them to play."

Do we have a deal?

- We have a deal.

I think that it is... the individual's choice to be responsible, and what we're doing is we're providing the best information possible.

Information can never be the enemy.

So, I think it's pretty naive to say that people wouldn't gamble.

I think that giving them the best opportunity and the best methodology and the best information is probably an ethical decision.

It's not that they wouldn't gamble at all, but the fact that it's being offered to them with such accessibility in a way that has never been before.

Now, it's everywhere, 24 hours a day.

And so, the fact that we're offering it in this perfect way, it's not that it's "should they gamble or shouldn't they gamble?"

It's the way that it's being offered as opposed to so many other things that young people could be doing.

That's the issue.

BLUMENTHAL: Jeremy and a lot of other young males are going through challenges that... Tiki and Stephanie and I never faced.

No longer do they have to go to the casino.

They got one in their pocket.

That's the casino.

And the technology means that FanFuel can track Jeremy, literally in seconds.

Ah.

Governor Fluharty, I want to give you a chance to convince your sister.

(laughter) Can you convince her that the brave new world of A.I.

smashed together with this very attractive gambling product, that it's going to be okay for her son?

FLUHARTY: Well, Sis, I know that you are concerned that it's available, but it is more protected than it's ever been.

It's more regulated than it's ever been, and it's safer than it's ever been.

RUHLE: When we talk about this March Mayhem we do as a family every year, it's a social event for us.

It's a chance for Jeremy to be with his aunts and uncles.

It's a chance for us to entertain, as opposed to FanFuel being able to geolocate Jeremy sitting in his room alone.

That's a completely different gambling experience than a family event, with everybody's coming for Tiki's seven-layer dip.

(laughter) I want to give Mr.

Wallach a chance to defend FanFuel, and then we... Well, everybody's making great points, but it's not a binary choice here between, you know, sort of a family mayhem bracket pool versus targeting vulnerable gamblers.

We don't want to target vulnerable gamblers.

we track the behavior to make sure that anyone who's gambling too much, maybe we, we... we stop ourselves from trying to target those individuals.

TANG: Okay.

So, with a huge assist from Mr.

Levy and Predict It A.I., FanFuel is bringing gambling to the fingertips of millions of users with A.I.-driven custom marketing campaigns.

One of those users is Jeremy.

He's sitting down to watch his favorite team, Middlevania State, play a very important March Mayhem basketball game.

Ben McDonald.

Ben, you are a Middlevania State legend.

You played college baseball here.

Your son is an athlete here at Middlevania State now, too, and you are a mentor to many of these athletes.

One of the athletes that you mentor is a kid named Darius.

He's Middlevania State's star basketball player, and he gives you a call, right now.

You pick up.

Darius, how you doing, buddy?

(laughter) TANG: Mr.

McDonald, I need your advice.

- All right.

I was in the locker room, and I overheard one of my teammates.

It sounded like somebody was trying to pay him a lot of money to have him miss shots in this game on purpose.

Mm.

TANG: The player I overheard in the locker room is your son.

Mm.

(laughter) It's Ben Jr.

Talk to Ben Jr.

I would say, "What am I hearing?

"Is there potential... "a teammate of yours has told me, potentially, about some wrongdoings going on in the basketball game?"

TANG: "Dad, I'm sorry.

"These new kids, I thought they were my friends.

"They asked if I wanted to make some money.

"By the time I figured out what they meant, it was too late.

"They have text messages implicating me.

They'll turn me in if I don't do what they say."

So, here's what you're going to do.

You're going to sit the game out.

You're not playing tonight.

I'm going to tell-- I'm going to go talk to coach and we're going to get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

But I do not want you playing in that ballgame tonight, because your teammates are counting on you.

And if they can't count on you, I don't want you in the ballgame.

TANG: Okay.

I want to bring in Anita Marks.

Anita, you are Middlevania's foremost sports radio host.

I'm wondering first, if this dilemma that Ben and his son have been dealing with, is that playing out in locker rooms across the country today?

Absolutely.

Why is it happening so much all of a sudden now?

What's changed?

It's... not that anything has changed, it's that now players are getting caught, because it's being regulated.

You know, the bookie who lives up in the Bronx isn't monitoring how many bets are coming in on the under of Ben's son in that game, right?

But you know who is monitoring it?

Yep.

- The FanFuels.

So, so now-- so hypothetically speaking, let's say there's an uptick in the amount of money that's being placed on his son in that game.

Red flag, red flag, red flag.

And then now it's being investigated, and players are getting caught.

It's better now.

- It's better, if... TANG: Mr.

Cohen, do you agree?

- Absolutely not.

That is so asinine.

(laughter) As long as we've had professional sports, we're going to have gambling sports scandals.

If you think about the Middlevania Purple Sox of 1919 and their famous game-breaking scandal, right?

(laughter) This has always been a part of it.

And some-- so, some amount of this is inevitable.

But in no universe could you gamble on an obscure college basketball player to any amount of money, not to mention sort of as much money as you want from your phone.

MARKS: But you-- you really don't believe that there's been professional athletes in the history of professional sports that has thrown a game on purpose.

Of course there have.

- Okay.

Of course, but I'm saying, but now, even just-- even thinking about the collegiate level, the number of people who are gambling has just increased.

The sort of cultural awareness of gambling has gone up by so much, such that there are more students on Middlevania State campus who would never have thought about gambling otherwise.

Not to mention, who are Ben's Jr.

's roommates and then say, "Hey buddy, "if you miss a couple free throws, we can make $25,000."

TANG: Here's what happens.

Middlevania State loses.

A lot of Middlevania State fans are sad, upset.

One of them is Jeremy.

Now, Jeremy started the night with just a $20 bet on Middlevania State, but as the game went on, kept getting prodded, app notifications, new bets, that he can make.

And by the end of the night, he's down $600.

Jonathan Cohen.

What is Jeremy likely to do now that he's lost his $600?

Unfortunately, he's most likely to exhibit the classic and probably most telling symptom of a problem-- a gambling problem, which is loss chasing.

And he's going to start gambling with ever more amounts of money.

Maybe he loses his next one, maybe he gambles now with $40, with $100, $200, until it's all gone.

TANG: Yeah, yep.

And it's exactly as Jonathan says: he's deep in debt.

Ed, Jonathan told us what Jeremy's doing.

Can you help us understand why?

Well, I think the apps, for one, made it very easy to get in that position in the first place, because it is so seamless, because it is so easy, because you're getting the notifications constantly throughout the day.

So, you've got to look at his circumstances.

This guy is living at home.

He's in and out of a job.

He's trying to figure out, "why is that the case?

"What's wrong with me?

How do I get my life together?"

He's probably thinking about, "What are my prospects for my life?

"How do I get rich?

How do I actually build a life that I want to lead?"

And he's realizing that there aren't many options available for him.

TANG: Tiki Barber, you know now that your son has a gambling problem.

I'm wondering if you think it's time now for some tough love.

Jeremy, if Mama Barber had found me doing this, my ass would be red.

(laughter) We can't do that anymore.

So, I want to help you.

And... what are you struggling with?

Why do you feel so compelled to gamble as a way to get rich?

Let's find something else that makes you feel strong.

Let's find something else that makes you feel worthwhile.

RUHLE: But that's so hard to do, because he doesn't have your profile.

- It doesn't matter about my profile.

- He doesn't have your college experience.

- But it doesn't matter.

- And at the root of this... he can't get laid.

(laughter) But he can't, and I don't mean it in a sassy way, but right?

He doesn't have companionship, he doesn't have love, he doesn't have partnership.

And the deeper he goes into this hole, FanFuel is texting him, but no girls are.

And if you were to reach out to him, what in the world is he going to say?

"I got no car, I got no school, I have no money."

And so, so-- FanFuel and all this is on top... it's, all of this is piling on top of something deep down.

He just doesn't feel okay.

TANG: I'm wondering if you're going to take matters into your own hands.

Are you going to take his cell phone, monitor his credit card statement, make him delete the app?

- Except of course he's 21 and we can't.

TANG: Why not?

Because once your son is 18, you can't monitor that phone.

You could kick him out of the house if he doesn't agree to all of this.

RUHLE: (inaudible) Kicking him out only compounds the problem.

Now he's more desperate.

TANG: I'm hearing there's no good options.

There are plenty of options.

- This is hard.

FLUHARTY: Because he's in a regulated state, there are plenty of options.

- Yeah.

TANG: Okay, what are your options?

(laughter) In... in Middlevania, because we have a regulated state and we have resources available, there are phone numbers for him to call.

He needs a phone number, that'll help him.

There's help available because we have a regulated industry.

Money is available for resources for individuals like Jeremy.

And if it wasn't for the regulated market in Middlevania, he'd be on an island by himself.

TANG: Jonathan Cohen, is that help that Mr.

Fluharty is talking about, a phone number that Jeremy can call, is that enough for gamblers like Jeremy to solve the problem?

It is not.

Um, it is... maybe in Jeremy's case, if he sort of already hit rock bottom, you can-- you can call a hotline, you can go to the Shawn Fluharty Mental Health Center brought to you by FanFuel, and you can get treatment.

But let's note that Jeremy-- Jeremy's already fallen in the bottom of the well.

Whereas, I would propose that Governor Fluharty could have put higher guardrails around the well to stop him from falling in, in the first place.

BLUMENTHAL: Here's the thing.

TANG: Yes, Senator.

Look at the numbers involved in profits for FanFuel and others that are in this business.

How they are exponentially skyrocketing in profits.

How much of that revenue or profits goes into treatment?

It is a tiny little pittance.

WALLACH: Regulation, consumer protection measures, responsible gambling safeguards.

None of this exists without state-regulated sports betting.

I share Senator Blumenthal's concerns.

More can be done.

More can definitely be done.

TANG: Fortunately, Jeremy himself sees there's a problem.

He says, "I need your help, Mom and Dad.

Can you monitor my credit card statements?"

Just that accountability.

Can you do that for me?"

Absolutely.

TANG: I have a question for you, Tiki, about whether you'd consider some changes yourself.

You are the radio play-by-play commentator for the Middlevania Giants, but you've noticed something's changed lately.

All of the games, the broadcasts, are overrun by advertising.

Nonstop.

Draft Whales, FanFuel, bet on this, promo that.

I'm wondering, are you still comfortable with that, as you see your own son struggling with addiction?

I'm not very comfortable with it, but I also understand the revenue model of major professional sports.

I understand that we've exhausted the advertising space, and so there needs to be new avenue-- avenues for advertisers, as well as new eyes.

Can you go to work every day, read the latest betting lines to hundreds of thousands of listeners as your own son is trying to make this change in his life to stop betting?

It would be a challenge.

And so the question is, Stephanie, (laughter) Honey... (laughter) do I need this job so much that I'm going to compromise my morals?

I don't think it's an either-or.

TANG: Okay.

Because you have the platform that you do, you can find a way to use it for good.

You are not saying that gambling should be banned.

The Senator isn't saying that, but the fact that you have this public position, you can start to use it for good in a positive, constructive way, rather than tap out.

But you realize that's a commitment that's going to have a lot of pushback, especially from the people who sign my paycheck.

It's going to challenge them to hold onto me in spite of the fact that they want to fire me.

Threading a needle is really hard.

- It is.

I'm losing my eyesight, too.

(laughter) TANG: All right.

Decision time, Tiki.

Would you step back, at least for the time being, in order to prioritize your son?

I would.

TANG: Wow.

I would.

TANG: Okay.

RUHLE: But the thing for our son, it's not just saying "don't gamble."

We have to help him find something else constructive in his life to fill that void.

Well, maybe that something else is me stepping back from this job.

But everybody else would see the example that I'm trying to make.

And so, because we have an example-- now this would require putting Jeremy front and center to a public eye about gambling and being a gambling addict.

RUHLE: Which might-- Which might be a great opportunity for him, if our family collectively decided to do that, or... TANG: Okay.

- Tiki going independent and starting to be this champion and this warrior, that might end up being more fulfilling and more profitable.

TANG: Okay.

Here's what happens.

Middlevania's state legislature has proposed a bill called the Safer Bet Act.

Senator Blumenthal, this bill, the Safer Bet Act, is modeled on a piece of federal legislation that you have drafted in the United States Congress.

Unfortunately, that bill has... stalled in Congress, like literally everything else.

(chuckling) But there is momentum in the States to follow your lead.

So can you tell us what would the Safer Bet Act do to rein in gambling?

The Safer Bet Act would prohibit the bets during the actual play of the game.

It would prohibit tracking, using algorithms to track the users or betters.

Jeremy seems to be turning the corner in his life, until he gets that ping on the phone saying, "Jeremy, we miss you."

Right.

- "You haven't been betting."

Mr.

Levy, you didn't seem super excited when you heard these betting restrictions in the Safer Bet Act.

Well, the Safer Bet Act is never going to be able to pass, because it is based in a world of naivety.

And here in Middlevania, we live in the real world.

So in the real world, things like banning A.I.

algorithms is impossible.

How are you going to ban me from using algorithms at home?

I think that the thing that you are demonizing is information, and information can never be banned.

My job is to provide an extraordinary experience for my customers and to provide amazing information.

That is my job, and I'm going to do that to the best of my ability.

BLUMENTHAL: And your job is to make money, and... - One more point.

TANG: One more point for Mr.

Levy, one more point.

Please, Mr.

Levy.

LEVY: One more point.

You wouldn't ban humans that have got more knowledge than other humans from gambling.

So why would you ban A.I., which is the ultimate equalizer, which helps me as someone who knows nothing about sports be equal to people who've studied their sports their whole lives and put the odds in my favor?

We're not banning algorithms.

We're banning certain uses of algorithms to exploit people like Jeremy, who are vulnerable.

WALLACH: Hold on a second.

Hold on a second.

We haven't talked about one feature of state regulation that everybody is ignoring, and the advice I would give to Stephanie and Tiki is have your son self-exclude himself from FanFuel.

We don't want to target him.

If he has a problem, we don't want him participating in our platform.

State laws that this governor signed a bill on and state laws around the country have as one of its features the ability of an individual to self-exclude himself and, in some cases, for family members to initiate that process.

That's FanFuel's preference for Jeremy, to self-exclude himself?

Brother, please.

What's the alternative?

I know that's what I want, but I do not believe that is what you want.

I do want that.

TANG: Okay, I want to come back to the Safer Bet Act.

Senator Blumenthal, you happen to be old friends with Middlevania's favorite son, Ben McDonald.

Huge sports celebrity.

And you know that if a sports celebrity like him comes out in support of the Safer Bet Act, that could change public perception.

Would you give Mr.

McDonald a call, see if he'll come out, speak in favor of this law of yours?

I'll give anyone a call who would try to do some good.

I'm going to give you a call-- your credibility is a lot bigger than mine.

People will listen to you more than they'll listen to me.

I'd be totally against anything to do with gambling.

You'd support this law?

I would definitely support it.

BLUMENTHAL: The effects of this are real, they are heartbreaking, tragic.

When people lose money in their bedrooms and then have to face the real world, they're in debt, they're ashamed, they've lost their identity.

TANG: Mr.

Wallach, you are sitting in your office, FanFuel headquarters, when the C.E.O.

stops by.

"Daniel, we've got a big problem.

"I just heard that Ben McDonald "might come out in support of the Safer Bet Act.

"I need your help.

Is there anything we can do to get McDonald on our side?"

Yeah, if we pass, if Middlevania passes the Safe Bet Act, it will make it easier and more accessible for your bettors and gamblers and people like Tiki and Stephanie's son to utilize other channels to make bets.

Hundreds of other unregulated websites that are accessible on your son's phone and your son's phone in your home without any supervision, without any regulation, without any consumer safeguards, without any watchdogs.

TANG: Are you persuaded?

- You're going to have a patchwork of different state laws.

And you're gonna drive bettors to the offshore market... Are you persuaded by Mr.

Wallach's judgment?

No, he's not persuading me-- yeah, no, I'm listening.

I'm listening, this is not a decision you make overnight on one conversation.

TANG: Fair enough.

Are we perfect?

No, no system is perfect, but you know what the worst infrastructure is?

Unregulated gambling, offshore internet gambling.

TANG: Would you call Anita Marks?

Hugely popular radio personality?

Maybe she'll come out, speak against the Safer Bet Act.

Would you give her a call?

I'd give her a call to try to convince Anita that there's merit... Stop right there.

I'm with you.

- Okay.

MARKS: You know, one thing, you know, there's so much great conversation happening, but one thing that we're-- why do people wager?

Why do young men wager?

Why do I wager?

I'm sure there's folks that are out there that like, "Oh man, I want to make the money.

This is how I'm going to make the money," and there are some, like, really brilliant, like, people from, like, M.I.T.

who's got, like, these algorithms and they're making the money.

But, like, the average Joe Schmo like me and all of us, how, why are we wagering?

You know why?

Because if I put a dollar on the Atlanta Falcons and the New Orleans Saints, who are two (bleep) teams that I wouldn't watch for a second of my day, but I've got a dollar on that game, you bet your ass I'm watching it, right?

So this is why people gamble.

And on my radio show, I tell people when I talk about gambling, I'm going to tell you what to put money down.

I tell people don't wager what you can't afford to throw down your toilet because more than not, you're going to lose.

But what are you paying for?

You're paying for the price of entertainment.

It is more entertaining to watch a game, whether it's football, basketball, baseball, when you have money on the game than when you do not.

ELSON: That's what gambling's supposed to be.

But I think what we're seeing here is that's not what gambling is.

It's supposed to be about having fun and entertainment.

That's the whole point of it, but that's not what we're experiencing in this scenario.

We're experiencing actual degradation of someone's mental health, possibly the potential of suicide.

That's not what we're seeing on the ground in these gambling scenarios.

RUHLE: We're talking about teenage boys with undeveloped brains who-- yes, Jeremy has already gone down the path, but there's a lot of boys that haven't yet.

And they're just starting to, in their voyage of self-discovery, as they're high schoolers and they're college-age kids.

And I don't know that they're going to immediately delve into the black market, but what we need to do is limit all of this Disney-fication of gambling.

TANG: Daniel Wallach, you are sitting at your FanFuel office when you get an email from a colleague in the responsible gaming department.

She's put together a report using A.I.

to identify the users who are at risk of gambling problems.

Based on betting histories, transaction histories, she's identified 100,000 FanFuel users, who are "at high risk of job loss, bankruptcy, self-harm."

She recommends that FanFuel shut down these accounts immediately before anything bad happens.

Tell me about your reaction as you read this report.

I might adopt some of that proposal.

At the very least, we're going to be tracking it, imposing betting limits, and, in many cases, probably not allowing them to wager even further.

That's a no-brainer.

TANG: Okay.

- We don't want to profit on the backs of problem gamblers.

So would you shut these accounts down?

Well, it's a case-by-case, we monitor... That doesn't sound like a yes.

Well, you're asking me to paint with a broad brush, make a decision in ten seconds.

TANG: I am.

Yes, I'm asking you.

I'd have to look at the data, and if the data says, if the data supports that, absolutely yes.

Okay, the data says that a significant percentage of these 100,000 people, many of them will suffer job loss, bankruptcy, self-harm.

WALLACH: Well, how speculative is this?

Give me some granular details.

If you're talking about individuals who are wagering huge sums of money on a threadbare income or they're unemployed and they're betting higher and higher amounts and losing, we don't want those types of gamblers.

I'm going to shut those accounts down.

You're going to shut those accounts?

But you can't say you're going to shut every account down if I'm presented with, you know, one report.

I'd have to look at individual accounts.

This is the 100,000, this is the one percent that's the most concerning.

That's what I'm giving you.

We do not want to target people who are the most vulnerable, who have behaviors like that, that are just, they're betting over their heads.

We do not want that.

- Okay.

It sounds like we might have some agreement-- Mr.

Levy, you agree with that?

- I agree with that.

I think that's exactly what A.I.

's purpose-built for.

It can identify the problem cases.

The simple fact is they don't shut down the account.

(laughter) COHEN: The FanFuels of the world would not exist but for their biggest losing customers.

82% of the revenue just comes from just 3% of the betters.

And I would bet, ha-ha, some of them have V.I.P.

hosts who are employees of FanFuel, whose job it is to get those people to gamble more money and to send personalized enticements, develop a personal relationship to keep them engaged and keep them betting.

TANG: Mr.

Wallach, what's going to happen if you shut these accounts down?

WALLACH: I'm VP of compliance and regulatory.

It's my job to limit and lessen the risk of the company.

And if these accounts are at the extreme side of representing problem gamblers, we do not want to have these accounts.

RUHLE: And by the way, Jeremy, who's got no game, who's got nothing going on, now gets to have a V.I.P.

host on FanFuel.

Right?

When the only time you could really blow it out and go to Vegas once a year, twice here, maybe if you were a whale, you'd have that V.I.P.

host and you'd lose your shirt.

Now, day in and day out, 24 hours a day, there's a host there to tell you that you're the man and just come bet a little bit more.

TANG: We're going to move ahead a couple months.

Tiki, Stephanie, Jeremy is doing better.

He's happiest when he talks about his girlfriend, Ruby, who you're eager to meet.

But one night as you're looking through the credit card statements, you see a series of suspicious transactions to Interactive Entertainment Services, LLC.

Three charges on a Tuesday night, $30, $100, $20.

A few days later, $50, $10.

What do you think is happening?

I mean, we have to assume the worst.

Unless... of course, we're going to talk to him.

He asked us to monitor him.

He sees you at the table looking at his statements.

He's like, "What's up, Mom, Dad?

Everything okay?"

Anything you want to tell us, Jeremy?

"No.

Are those the credit card statements?

Is there a problem?"

Yeah, there's some unusual activity.

"Oh, I'm sorry, Mom and Dad, I should've told you.

"Those are charges for things that I bought for Ruby.

"I'm so sorry, guys.

I know I'm not "the most trustworthy-- I'll have Ruby tell you herself.

You want to meet her?"

Well, it's been three months and we still haven't met her.

Starting to doubt whether or not she's real.

(laughter) TANG: He heads to his room, opens up a chat window and says, "Hey, Ruby.

"Can you tell my parents what those credit card charges are for?"

The answer, "Those charges are "subscription fees for me, Ruby.

I'm Jeremy's virtual companion."

I actually feel relieved.

(laughter) TANG: Why do you feel relieved?

Because it's not the same problem.

Now, it's a different problem.

(laughter) But not one that is necessarily detrimental to his health, to his long-term mental statement.

TANG: Mom is not so sure, Tiki.

But it is the same problem.

BARBER: Is it?

It is the same problem.

It's not that our son loves gambling.

He's seeking companionship.

He's seeking a dopamine hit.

He's seeking validation.

He's seeking companionship.

And all of this goes back to the root cause of the problem.

Our son is desperately sad and lonely.

And when he was 13, COVID hit.

When he was 18, he was graduating high school and there was protests going on.

He went through-- he tried to make it in college and had no social abilities and had to come home.

Our boy hasn't developed the actual social and emotional skills to be a functioning adult and he's not one.

Yes.

But he has friends like Ed.

TANG: Well, Ed, let's talk about it.

Let's talk to Ed, Ed!

At this point, I think if he's legitimately presenting Ruby as his companion, as his girlfriend, at this point we have to just draw the line and say, "Jeremy is mentally ill.

Jeremy is struggling with an actual mental problem."

If he has the gambling addiction and now he's obsessed with the fake companion online, you need to treat it in the same way that you treat a drug addiction or an alcohol addiction or any other addiction-- it's a mental illness.

TANG: Alan Levy, is it possible that a virtual companion could be a good thing for somebody like Jeremy?

I mean anything is possible, I don't know Jeremy and I feel like he should have been hugged more as a child, maybe.

(laughter) But I feel like as A.I.

develops, it's going to become a larger and larger place for it in all of our lives.

And how that fits in, I don't think any of us know yet.

We're all trying to figure out almost as we go along.

So maybe he's got a problem, and maybe he's just at the vanguard of a mega trend.

But you're not... Oh, he's on the-- he may be on the vanguard of a mega... Does that mean-- hold on, just let me, Does that mean you think it's possible that virtual companions, virtual girlfriends could be a good thing for some people?

Yeah, I think so.

I think that in the future, A.I.

is going to replace a lot of roles.

Everyone in this panel is probably surrounded by people that love them, friends, family, but there's a lot of lonely people out there.

There's a lot of people who haven't got anyone to turn to, and maybe it's a viable option.

In this case, Jeremy has got wonderful parents, clearly very, very passionate, and he should turn to them.

But I don't think that it is out of the realms of possibility that in the future, all of us will have A.I.

companions.

It doesn't sound good to me at all, I'm not buying it.

I think there's a mental issue there.

You know, and when you talk about Jeremy, I mean, his mom is trying to get him laid.

Early in life, that would send any kid into mental issues, you know?

If my mom is doing it.

(laughter) You know?

Like, I can't I can't even get over that statement, like if I found out my mom was trying to get me laid, it's like, "I'm moving out."

(laughter) You know, so that might be one of Jeremy's issues, you know?

But I really think, when you listen and you hear everybody talking, Jeremy is depressed.

TANG: Okay.

- It's a tough time to be a kid, but I can't imagine having a relationship with something that's not real.

TANG: Okay, so.

As Jeremy's parents, friends, struggling with this concept of an A.I.

chatbot girlfriend, it turns out that Daniel Wallach and FanFuel are having a similar conversation over at FanFuel headquarters.

That's because a marketing team has just made an intriguing pitch to you.

FanFuel should pay the virtual girlfriend platforms to have the platforms promote your product, encourage them to go on FanFuel and bet.

What do you think?

No, awful business decision.

Are you kidding me?

TANG: No.

Why?

WALLACH: Because we offer a product that engages sports fans and is a form of entertainment.

We don't need to be sending messages through A.I.

chatbots to influence their real-life partners.

That is an improper use of A.I.

Shut that down.

Shut that down.

Alan Levy, do you agree with that?

I agree with that, I think that there's delineation and regulation is good and there should be delineation and A.I.

shouldn't be allowed to run amok.

But I just want to point out something that a lot of people on the panel when you're speaking about A.I.

girlfriends are shaking their head and looking pretty disgusted.

And that's fair because technology is scary.

We are entering a new phase.

A.I.

is a new phase and we should be allowed to embrace it in the forms that it comes if it can help people.

I just thought that if FanFuel doesn't do it, the black market is going to, so if FanFuel says no to A.I.

chatbot girlfriends, why wouldn't the black market do it?

So you got to do it.

Otherwise, they're going to go to the black market.

Oh, no.

We're not the black market though.

There's a difference.

The black market is going to have a chatbot girlfriend getting Jeremy hooked; come on, you got to go in.

You said so.

TANG: All right folks, here's what happens.

A new market competitor swoops in, makes the deal.

And just like that, virtual companions are recommending that their users bet on sports.

Meanwhile, Middlevanians have come out in support of the Safer Bet Act, and it passes through both houses of the legislature.

Governor Fluharty, that bill is now sitting on your desk.

I'm holding the veto pen.

That's absolutely right.

You are.

What are you going to do with it?

I'm going to veto it.

TANG: Why?

Because it's not based on science or data.

We're not going to blindly govern.

We're going to govern based on facts and evidence and not just emotions.

Okay, so you're going to veto the Safer Bet Act.

You're going to veto banning A.I.

use in marketing.

You're going to veto limits on bets and deposits based on what people can afford.

You're going to veto advertising restrictions.

There are maybe things in there that we could look at individually, but the Safer Bet Act is a large conglomerate of perceived issues, and I'm not going to govern based on emotions.

I'm going to govern based on facts.

TANG: Okay-- Senator Blumenthal, maybe you have some influence.

We're going to ask the legislature to override his veto, and we're going to begin a referendum campaign because there are thousands, millions of parents and citizens out there who know that some regulation is necessary.

But, we're going to have a formal task ahead because for all their platitudes, this industry will fight tooth and nail any regulation at the state level.

That's why we need citizen involvement and engagement.

Democracy is not a spectator sport.

The senator is playing hardball.

Does that move anything for you?

No.

(laughter) I would tell the senator, my polling numbers are much better than the federal government's and I would... TANG: Nothing's worse.

I would move forward.

TANG: Okay.

They were better.

(laughs) TANG: Okay, Governor Fluharty vetoes the Safer Bet Act.

But the legislature overrides the veto.

The Safer Bet Act becomes law here in Middlevania.

Six months pass.

And it's exactly as the industry feared, gambling on sports betting platforms like FanFuel craters, down by half.

Tax revenue is down by half, too.

The Shawn Fluharty Community Health Center brought to you by FanFuel closes for lack of funding.

Going to hurt a lot of people.

But I have even worse news.

Gambling addiction is still rampant here in Middlevania.

People are still betting huge amounts of money, losing it on sports.

They're not doing it on FanFuel, anymore, they can't because of the Safer Bet Act.

They're doing it on unregulated prediction markets.

Jonathan Cohen, can you help explain to us what are prediction markets and how are they different than sports books?

Prediction markets are technically investment platforms that allow someone to "invest" or purchase a contract based on the outcome of an event.

It could be an election, it could be who's going to be the bridesmaids in Taylor Swift's wedding or whoever the Taylor Swift equivalent is here in Middlevania.

And it also will include sporting events.

So you can gamble on real world events in a fashion that is not subject to state regulation, but is in fact regulated by the federal governments.

TANG: Why is it subject to state regulation?

Help us understand that.

So because these are technically investment platforms, they are regulated... ...debatably, they are nominally regulated by the Commodities Future Trading Commission from Washington and not subject at all to state gambling law.

And it is the prediction markets that get Jeremy in the end.

He relapses.

All after a sudden turn by his virtual girlfriend, Ruby, paid for by a prediction market.

Ruby says, "It's not gambling, Jeremy, it's investing.

You can beat the market."

Jeremy loads up an account, and within a week, he's lost $10,000.

And in a moment of desperation, he makes a terrible mistake.

Tiki and Stephanie, you come home late one night and your house is ransacked.

Your family heirlooms, valuables, jewelry, gone.

Jeremy's gone, too.

What's the worst case scenario playing through your mind right now?

That our son is dead.

Yeah, not that he did it, that someone did it to him.

TANG: Anita Marks.

You have been a pretty strong supporter of sports betting.

I'm curious if you might reconsider any of your views if you had to imagine that this might be your child missing, in danger.

Wow, um... Of course.

Um, it hits home, right?

When it's you and it's your child, and I'm sure I would feel extremely different, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I didn't want to have to say it, but it sounds like Governor Fluharty was right.

The odds of Jeremy relapsing on FanFuel, which was heavily regulated by my administration, are a hell of a lot smaller than what happened in the prediction markets, when there's no barrier in place, when there's no regulatory structure in place, and no consumer protections in place.

TANG: Senator?

Would you propose a federal law to make sure states can regulate prediction markets just the same as they regulate sports gambling platforms in Middlevania, A.I.

restrictions, betting limits, and the like?

I would do so, in fact, we are writing a bill right now.

Anita Marks, would you support prediction markets being treated no better?

Same as sports gambling platform?

I no longer have a son who has an issue, right?

TANG: Correct.

- Okay, all right.

Um, I love the prediction market, I think this is where our gambling universe is headed.

TANG: If you did have a son, because certainly there are people who do have sons, there are sons, brothers, husbands out there who are at risk, would that have changed your answer?

Again, if I was personally affected, and I had a son who had an issue, then I, knowing me as a, as a, I'm a mother of three dogs and two cats, I'm not a mother of a human.

But I know that I would... TANG: It would affect you.

It would affect me and I would have probably a different perspective, knowing me.

But I don't.

TANG: Okay.

And also, this is my career, this is how I thrive.

I'm a sports gambling analyst.

TANG: Million-dollar question, maybe the billion-dollar question, honestly.

Daniel Wallach, Senator Blumenthal will sponsor this bill to have prediction markets regulated under state law, just like any other gambling industry.

Would FanFuel also support a law regulating prediction markets?

Of course, of course.

They should not be getting a free ride as they're currently getting.

TANG: Governor Fluharty, do you agree, prediction markets should not get a free pass, should be regulated more?

Prediction markets represent revenue theft to the state of Middlevania.

TANG: Wow-- folks, we may have broken the deadlock.

(laughter) Everybody agrees on prediction market regulation, I think.

Maybe not Anita.

On the fence.

One final chapter, and it's a dilemma for you, Senator Blumenthal.

Some time passes, a presidential election approaches, it's a big one.

After a fierce primary, your party nominates a candidate you are proud to support.

That candidate says to you, Senator Blumenthal, I want you to be my vice president.

Are you interested?

If I think I can add something to the ticket, yes.

TANG: It says one little thing: you know we lost the last election because we lost touch with young male voters.

Can't make that mistake again.

You've been talking a lot about regulating prediction markets.

Can you just stay quiet about that?

No.

TANG: No.

Just like that, dashes your hopes of being vice president of the United States.

BLUMENTHAL: And you know why, Madam President-to-be, which is that we'll lose lives.

If we don't impose some order on both prediction markets and sports gaming on the internet.

RUHLE: Can I just say, young male voters are also not a monolith?

If Senator Blumenthal actually goes to those communities, and goes on those podcasts, and speaks to those voters about helping them find their joy and find their entertainment, but in smart, sensible ways, I actually think that they'll be open to it.

ELSON: I would say that actually young men would support Senator Blumenthal's position.

For the same reason, if you were to ask an alcoholic, someone who's addicted to alcohol, addicted to drinking, drinking ruined their life, do you love drinking?

Do you love alcohol?

I don't love alcohol, it's ruined my life for various reasons.

So, the idea that just because we use the substance that we're describing here, which is gambling, which is prediction markets, doesn't mean we love it.

It doesn't mean that we want it in our lives more.

It actually probably means that we don't want it in our lives, we're probably upset that it was put into our lives in the first place.

So, I would say that Madam President doesn't have her finger on the pulse, in fact, young men would support him being on the ticket.

TANG: Okay, folks.

And I think we should stop calling it prediction markets.

It's sports gambling.

TANG: Okay, folks.

Months go by.

With the help of therapy, rehab, a strong support network at home, Jeremy is on the path to recovery, but every day is a struggle.

And as we think back about the difficult year that Jeremy has had, this struggle, my final question for you, what obligation, what responsibility do we have to protect young people like Jeremy in these difficult times?

MARKS: In my industry, sports talk radio, and specifically being a gambling analyst, we have to be honest.

I never tell anyone, this is the lock of the week, I never tell anyone, I guarantee you you're going to win this bet.

This is for entertainment value, more times than not, you're going to lose, and I think my peers and I take it upon myself, we have to be more aware of that and more... careful.

COHEN: I don't want to just reflexively ban something because some small percentage of people can run into trouble.

And I think if we did that, you sort of get rid of the things that make life worth living.

And so, I think the north star for all of this, should not be government profit, should not be corporate profit, I think it should be the wellbeing, in this case, specifically the wellbeing of young men.

And if that is the north star, the regulatory framework, the corporate framework should all be aligned specifically with that mission to advance that goal.

It's a difficult time to be a youth in today's world.

It just is, that's the reality of, there's so much pressure on social media, there's so much pressure in a lot of different ways, but we have to look over them, and keep them close to us, that's just where I am.

ELSON: I think we all agree that you need some form of regulation.

I think most of us agree on this point.

I think the question that we have to ask then is, is the regulation that we have in place, is our strategy actually working?

If you look at young people today, and you look at Jeremy as the example, when we see anxiety levels at all-time highs, and loneliness levels at all-time highs, depression levels at all-time highs, young people are more addicted to these platforms than ever before, you have to at least recognize whatever we're doing isn't working right now.

RUHLE: Just because your kids are quiet doesn't mean they're okay.

You have to knock on their door, open their door, and engage with them.

TANG: And with that folks, we bid farewell to Middlevania, until the next time.

(applause) ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

ANNOUNCER: For more about "Breaking the Deadlock," visit us at pbs.org/deadlock.

"Breaking the Deadlock" is available on Amazon Prime Video.