By the River with Holly Jackson

Host> Susan Zurenda uses her extensive teaching experience to inspire her writing.

>> Twenty years of my career was teaching English in community college, and I had taught a few years before that at a high school.

And then my last ten years in my career, I went back to public school to high school.

Host> Her book, "The Girl from the Red Rose Motel," explores the complex bonds between adults and teenagers and the power of the families we both inherit and create.

>> This book is really about two things that, that converge.

It is about what it's like to have experiences in public high school today, even though the book is set in 2012, it's contemporary and it combines two sort of populations of people who might go to a public school.

Host> Susan talks with me about how she connects with her readers.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit by the river.

Narrator> Major funding for "By The River" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years, The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

>> Hi, I'm your host Holly Jackson for "By The River."

Thanks so much for joining us.

You know, "By The River" is a show that goes beyond the book.

It helps you get a better understanding of the journey that led the author to their story, how they got there, why they got there.

We take a better look behind the scenes of how it, how it all happened.

And we have a great lineup for you this season on "By The River."

And today we're sitting down with Susan Zurenda and she is talking today about her book, "The Girl from the Red Rose Motel."

And really excited about this because it has a lot of emotion, much like your past book.

Thanks so much for joining us.

>> Thank you, Holly.

And thank you for inviting me to be here on "By The River."

Holly> Yes.

Let's go ahead and get right into it.

Tell us, what is this book about?

>> This book is really about two things that, that converge.

It is about what it's like to have experiences in the public high school today.

Even though the book is set in 2012, it's contemporary, and it combines two sort of populations of people who might go to a public school, those who are very well off and in the most advanced classes.

And a young woman, the protagonist, the girl from the Red Rose Motel, who's a bright girl but disadvantaged and her family lives in a rundown motel.

So these two young people's lives converge in the novel unexpectedly, and they get very entwined with their English teacher who gets very involved in their lives.

Holly> Okay.

You are a former English teacher.

Susan> I am.

>> So how did your experiences in the profession of teaching influence this book?

>> There, there certainly is an influence.

Now, I will say that Angela Wilmore, the English teacher in "The Girl from the Red Rose Motel" is a lot nicer and funkier than I ever was.

(laughter) But, you know, the setting, the circumstances, the atmosphere, do call on my experience, my 33 years of experience as an English teacher and also a kind of, for lack of a better word, sort of a bipolar life that I had during some of my last year's teaching in high school where I taught the, the most brilliant, usually well off AP English students.

And I also had a class of what was called then Reading Strategies, which was comprised of the lowest students.

And by that, I mean in terms of their, what they had been able to learn in school and usually their socioeconomic status.

They were the kids who were having trouble passing the exit exam.

And it was my job to see if we could get them from a fourth grade reading level to the level that they could pass the exit exam in a semester or two.

And sometimes we succeeded and sometimes we didn't.

So those two ex-, those two extreme experiences were kind of the impetus of my developing Sterling Lovell who is an AP English student in the novel, and Hazel Smalls, who is a girl, as I mentioned, who lives in a motel in disadvantaged circumstances >> That had to be a struggle as a teacher to make that shift.

I imagine the, the teaching style is totally different when you're talking about the different demographics.

What was that like for you as a struggle and how do you portray these teacher struggles within the book?

>> It was a struggle.

I mean, you just kind of had to turn off oneself and get in the mode, you know, it was just, and you did it in five minutes, you know, from one completely different population of young people to another.

And in the novel, Angela teaches one class of, of, I guess you'd say, basic English students in the novel, and then she has all the AP students.

And one of her challenges is realizing that Hazel and Sterling have met each other and, and have become interested in each other and watching this happen and trying to figure out what her role is because Sterling has crossed, he's an arrogant, cocky young man, and he has crossed a line with her and to the point that she put him and two or three of his friends in, in-school suspension, which is a place students like that would never imagine themselves.

But that's where he, that's where Sterling meets Hazel.

And so she finds herself kind of renegotiating her understanding of Sterling as she begins to see his empathy for Hazel.

And he, he will come, Hazel's in her first period class, and he will come to that class before school to see her, even though that's really illegal.

He's not supposed to be in any other class before school, but she begins to, you know, let some of these rules slide.

And, but she is, is in a sort of a precarious place trying to protect Hazel and yet really becoming quite fond of Sterling in the process.

>> At what point in your life did the storyline come about?

>> Well, most of the plot is, is made up in this novel.

There are a couple of things, two that I can think of specifically that were based on real experiences.

And one, and maybe the most important one is what really catapults the plot into action in the novel.

And it is the scene in which Sterling and three of his friends basically take over her lesson.

One day she's teaching a, a play, an early feminist play, 19th century play, and they just begin to play devil's advocate.

And every time she tries to carry the discussion forward, they one up her or come up with some inane comment until she finally decides she's done, she's not gonna teach the class anymore.

And she closes her book and she goes to her desk and Sterling, the character just comes up and starts teaching the play, and at that point, she realizes that has crossed a line she can't deal with.

In real life, one year when I was teaching AP English, there were these eight boys, I called 'em the Hateful Eightful, and that's what I call 'em in the book.

They had been terrorizing teachers' classrooms since middle school.

<Wow.> But because they were very brilliant, because their families were influential, teachers had mostly overlooked their antics.

And so here they are seniors and no one has ever really called them to task.

Now, you're supposed to call parents and talk to parents.

I called one of those parents one time and she told me she taught her son to challenge authority.

And I thought, well, that's, that there won't be any, any respect coming from here.

So in real life I had a similar situation where these boys overtook my class and I put 'em in, in-school suspension.

And that day lived on an infamy until I retired.

<Wow.> Beginning of every school year, you know, students said, "Oh, you're the teacher who --" And I went, nah, those boys put themselves there, but I never had another moment's trouble out of them.

<Wow.> So I used that real life experience to catapult the novel into action.

But beyond that, most of it is fiction.

>> Okay.

You also bring a lot of awareness to the homeless population and especially those living in motels.

What did you learn during your research throughout this story?

>> Well, I became, I mean, I don't know, you know, what students might or might not have specifically lived in, in motels, you know, when I was teaching that reading strategies class.

I'm, I'm certain some of them did, but there was a very proactive guidance counselor at the high school where I, I taught my last 10 years.

And she knew about, like, they're called the sheltered homeless.

And she knew about these families living in motels, and it got to be more and more difficult crisis for these young people.

And she started a nonprofit organization called CAST: Care, Accept, Teach... Care, Accept, Share, Teach.

<Okay.> I got it.

And I began talking to her.

And when I was writing the book, I, I interviewed her, and the nonprofit goes on to this day.

She started it a, a good many years ago, and I volunteered through her to serve some Christmas meals to folks living in motels, took children shopping for shoes and things like that.

And, and really got to a little bit better understanding of what this life is is really, really like for them.

And I, I did write down a statistic, just so you know, you can be aware of how serious this situation is.

This is just a, just a, like a, a moment.

But on a single night, which happened to be January 26th, 2022, in South Carolina, we had 2,294 people who were sheltered homeless.

So that most likely means the majority of those were living in, in motels.

And one other statistic: in overall in the year 2021, we had 11,970 children in South Carolina experiencing homelessness.

<Wow.> And you think, okay, how, how do those children even begin to think about learning?

<Right> Going to school when they're, every minute of their lives is challenged?

Holly> Right, and whole family in one room and all of that.

Susan> Yeah.

Oh yes.

No kitchen.

No, it's yeah, abysmal, >> Certainly eye-opening.

What do you hope that your readers grasp from what they learn through this story?

>> Well, one thing I hope they grasp is that kindness is pretty powerful.

And that if people do reach across the lines to each other as Hazel and Sterling do, they learn from each other.

And true kindness and, and empathy toward one another, no matter what station of life you're living in, what socioeconomic class is going to bring about good.

It's going to help life move forward.

It's going to bring awareness, it's going to bring, bring improved circumstances.

So if I think about, you know, that's one thing I hope that people will, will take away from the book.

>> You know, I think that we can all think of an experience, a moment that happened in our lives that we're different because of that.

But I also think through our own writing that we can become changed.

Because, you know, it's, it's like you're teaching yourself, but you know, sometimes whenever we sit down and write, it's like we enter this other world or something and then you're like, you're different because of what you wrote.

So do you feel like your characters in this book taught you anything?

Do you think, do you see differently because of what you wrote?

>> Oh, yes.

Oh yes.

I mean, writing literature can change us, and it's whether we write it or, or we read it, literature can change us.

I believe that with all my heart and was a, a mantra of mine when I was teaching, because we can get inside the hearts and minds of people in a way that we really can never do in real life.

Because people have, they have shields up, they're not gonna let you completely inside.

And, and, and we don't often even get that close to, to really understand the insides of people.

And so when I developed the character of Hazel, I knew from the beginning she was very insecure.

She felt shame.

She was embarrassed about her circumstances.

I knew she would grow and developed as a young woman throughout the novel, but I don't think I realized myself until it happened, the bold decision that she ends up making at the end of the novel.

It was, it was almost like she made it.

And I went, whoa, girl.

<Yeah.> Well, you've come -- Holly> I think that's so cool.

because you write it, but then you surprise yourself.

>> Yeah.

I'm just writing it, but it's, I don't know how to explain it.

I'm writing it, but it's her life or her who she is, her voice is just simply coming through me and, and she makes this decision at the end that I just applauded her for.

Holly> Right.

I love that.

As we speak right now, how long has it been since you have, have taught, you've had this window of how, how long?

Susan> I retired from full-time teaching in 2013.

<Okay.> I taught a couple of adjunct classes for a year or two, but, but full-time teaching, I, most of my 20 years of my career was teaching English in community college.

And I had taught a few years before that at a high school.

And then my last 10 years of my career, I went back to public school, to high school.

And that's, it's, it's those years really I think that I'm calling on more than anything with the atmosphere and setting of the book.

Holly> The reason I asked that question is because my mom's a teacher, and she was a teacher.

You know, you're always a teacher.

That's, that's what I'm getting at.

(Susan laughs) That's what I'm getting at because yeah.

Susan> (laughing) You are always a teacher.

>> You haven't been in the classroom in so long, but you're still teaching, you know, as even through this book.

<That's true.> And my mom's the same way, and she still identifies, you know, as a teacher.

And I'm like, Mom, it's been a while, you know?

But yeah, it's, yeah.

Susan> It's, it's who we are.

Holly> It's one of those things, it's just in you forever.

>> I guess it is a cliche to say that, you know, some people are just born to teach and, and, and that's true, I'm sure, in hundreds of professions.

You're born to be.

And, but yeah, it's, I think from a very early age though, I tried, I mean, I was a journalist at first and, but from a very early age, you know, I would put dolls in front of the blackboard and teach them.

So I, I suppose it's always, and I am from a long line of teachers.

I think my, my older daughter is a teacher and I believe she's fifth in line in line of, in my maternal line of, of, of teachers.

>> Wow.

Yeah.

It's it's in your life.

Susan> Yeah.

It's something in the psyche.

>> I think so too.

All right.

Let's talk about what you're, what you're reading and what you're writing now.

>> Right now, I've just finished reading Geraldine Brooks, "Caleb's Crossing," which is a really powerful novel.

I am getting ready to do some reading to blurb a book <Okay> for another author who has a Southern novel coming out.

He lives in Georgia.

And writing: I'm toying with the idea of fictionalizing, a young woman's story who's had, who had a, an incredibly difficult life whose, whose mother married her off at age 15 to an older man.

And her life was just miserable.

And you think, well, do we really wanna hear about all of that?

But her, she is so powerful.

I mean, she has come through the other side to become a very successful, I say young woman, young for me, she's about forty or forty-one.

She's come through the other side.

She's, that life is gone.

She is married, she owns her own business.

And the most powerful part of her story for me is that she's been able to forgive that mother.

And I don't know, that's what I want to try to wrap my head around <Right.> In terms of the core, if I, if I decide to pursue that.

>> Right.

Because it, it's almost the unforgivable.

Susan> Right.

I don't know that I would have the power, you know, if, if what had happened to me happened to her, that happened to her, I don't know.

<Right.> So that's a very, very, that's the part that really grabs me and makes me think this is a story worth investigating and fictionalizing, >> One thing I haven't talked to authors about is this honor of getting to put a blurb on a book.

What is that experience like, the selection and all that?

I see Patty Callahan Henry is at the top of yours.

She's a name that comes up a lot on the show.

I know she's real supportive of all her writing friends.

>> She is.

She is.

She is.

It can be an arduous process for an author to get blurbs because, well-known authors like Patty or Ron Rash, who's also blurbed the book, they, they are inundated, you know, with requests and there's no human way that that authors can fulfill every request for a blurb.

<Right.> You know, so far I, I've, I've been asked just a few times and, and I have been able to honor the request each time, but, you know, when I become famous, <Yes!> really famous!

(laughs) Holly> You are now.

We're on "By The River."

Come on.

>> Exactly.

Exactly.

What am I talking about?

But it's, it, it, it, it becomes difficult.

But I, I know how important it is for an author to get endorsements from other authors.

And so I'm, I'm doing my best to fulfill those requests, at least for the time being.

Holly> Refresh my memory on this, because I know you and I have talked before, but when did, when did the book writing start?

You were so busy with motherhood and with teaching.

When, when did the process of I'm gonna write a book begin?

>> I have always written short fiction since, since college and I had published a g ood bit of short fiction, but it wasn't until I retired from full-time teaching and my, my daughters were basically grown at that point, my, my aging parents, that was behind me.

And I realized that if I was ever gonna write a long work, it was then or never.

<Right.> And so I just threw myself into it.

I was also working, when I retired from full-time teaching, I began to work part-time, supposedly part-time, though it seemed like more.

Holly> (laughs) It usually turns into more.

>> Yes, for a woman who owns Magic Time Literary Publicity, And she puts authors on tour and she needed a writer.

She needed someone to read the books that she was of the authors.

And I read the books and I wrote pitches about them and I pitched them to the media and that threw me into the world of authors.

<Okay.> You know, threw threw me into the world of some pretty well known authors.

And that was also an impetus behind my thinking, okay, it's, it's now or never for you.

So that was my debut novel "Bells for Eli."

And now we have "The Girl from the Red Rose Motel."

Holly> Yes.

You know, I, I'm talking to people and a shared friend we have, Jonathan Howell.

He always says, "I have a working word document."

That's what I love.

I love that he says that, a working word document.

(Susan laughs) He doesn't call it a book, but, you know, a lot of people say, "Oh, I'm gonna write a book one day.

Well, time passes on.

And -- >> I like that phrase.

Holly> -- you've reached that moment where where, like you said, the time is now.

So, you said this is a -- >> All kinds of factors come together to motivate people, you know, to decide to have a working word document.

I love that phrase.

I'm gonna tell Jonathan.

I'm gonna steal that from him.

(Holly laughs) >> Alright, well our time is wrapping up.

>> Okay.

But it's been a lot of fun talking to you.

I always do wonder how the, the book cover comes together.

So is this particular knob key any meaning that we should know?

>> This is what my publisher decided to do.

But, of course, the suggestion here is that this key, this key into this knob is a door to the Red Rose Motel.

Holly> I like it.

So, all right, well, it's always a pleasure talking to you.

Thanks so much for coming to Beaufort.

>> Thank you, Holly.

What a pleasure to be on "By The River," and yes, it does make me famous.

Holly> Yes, you're famous.

Absolutely.

I love it.

Thanks so much.

And thank you all for joining us for "By The River."

We do love having you around and we welcome you to read these books, the one we're talking about today, "The Girl from the Red Rose Motel" by Susan Zurenda.

Thanks a lot for joining us and we'll see you next time right here by the river.

>> No one in his right mind would stay overnight in this crummy place, he thought.

Even as he knew people actually lived here day after day, week after week, Sterling walked back outside shuttered.

He wandered back to the office because what was the point of freezing his ass off to watch people blow hair dryers on frozen pipes?

The office might not be warm enough for comfort, but it was a heck of a lot better than outside.

He would sit and wait.

Approaching the door, he saw the arm of a slim figure inside rubbing a cloth up and down the clouded glass.

He didn't want to startle the cleaning lady who wasn't looking out, her head turned down and covered in a furry black hoodie.

So, he knocked, she spooked anyway, stepping back.

Sterling opened the door.

"Sorry, didn't mean to scare," he said and stopped.

As the person under the hood looked up at him, for a moment, they stared at each other.

"Go," she mumbled, backing away.

"Zelle."

"What?"

"It's you."

"What are you?"

Sterling exclaimed.

He reached out to touch the sleeve of her jacket.

She jerked her arm away.

"Hey, Zelle, it's okay.

You work here?"

She nodded yes and then no.

Like the scared rabbit when they first met, but worse, she sprang from one foot to the other frantic.

"Zelle, it's okay.

You work at my old man's motel?"

"I'm here, same as you, working "or I'm supposed to be "helping thaw frozen pipes.

"But I left now so I'll probably be in trouble."

"What the hell."

Sterling reached out again and this time made contact with Zelle's arm.

She looked at his hand on her sleeve.

"Please go," she said so quiet he could hardly hear her.

"Why?"

Sterling asked, "It's cold as a witch's you-know-what, and I don't wanna freeze," he said and grinned.

Zelle shook her hand from her arm, shook his hand from her arm.

"It's not with me," she stopped and started.

"What's not?"

he began, but she hurried around him, nearly tumbling out the glass door.

He followed calling her.

She didn't turn back.

He sprinted trying to catch up along the sidewalk, but she got away like her life depended on it.

Yards ahead, she turned a right angle and ducked into her corridor panting.

He stopped then knowing she lived here.

Otherwise she wouldn't have run like that.

Narrator> Major funding for "By The River" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.