By the River with Holly Jackson

Host> New York Times bestselling author, Joshilyn Jackson writes thrillers with unique female characters based in the South.

>> My name is Joshilyn.

I have wanted to be a writer since I was three.

In fact, my mother published my first novel that year using the Crayola and Staple methods.

So it's always kind of been, I've always been a storyteller.

It's what I love, and I'm just lucky enough to get to do my favorite thing in the world for a living.

Host> Her book With My Little Eye follows Maribel and her daughter as they move from LA to Atlanta to escape a stalker.

Joshilyn> It's the story of a working actor, not like a famous person, like a, like I'm a working novelist, you know, somebody who gets to make their living do the thing they love most in the world.

And she's what I call an ex pat, by which, I mean, she's from Georgia, but she's been living in California.

Host> Okay.

And a fan kind of gets obsessed with her.

And she has a rule that she will never go back to Georgia.

In fact, she won't even fly through the Atlanta airport, which, you know, you can't, I mean, if you die before you go to heaven or hell, you have to go through the Atlanta Airport.

Host> Somehow.

Right.

>> Right.

So, but the only job she can really get in her field is in Atlanta, where we have a lot of filming going on.

And so she takes it to get away from the guy, and she moves back into her past and back into her old culture, bringing with her, her 13-year-old daughter, Honor, who's on the autism spectrum.

And of course, because it's domestic suspense, you can guess that, that the stalker does not calmly stay in California going, oh, well, fair the well.

Good luck.

>> Right.

>> No.

So it's kind of a, it's a little bit of family drama.

I think the heart of the book is the mother-daughter relationship, but you know, it's a Joshilyn Jackson book.

So I like a little bit of kissing and a little bit of shooting.

Host> Joshilyn talks with me about her theatrical background and how it helps her narrate her own audio books.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit by the river.

Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

>> Hi, welcome to By The River.

I'm your host, Holly Jackson.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

You know, By The River is one of those shows that we go beyond the book.

We're talking to the author about how they got to the story and what led them there.

Oftentimes we learn fascinating things, and I know that we will today, today we are talking to Joshilyn Jackson and her latest book With My Little Eye.

It's a great cover.

'cause I spy -- >> No relation.

Holly> Exactly.

No relation, by the way, with the Jacksons.

But this is a great book cover because I'm seeing this, you know, I spy with my little eye kind of thing going on, so that's really good.

All right.

So tell us a little bit about yourself first.

>> My name is Joshilyn.

I have wanted to be a writer since I was three.

In fact, my mother published my first novel that year using the Crayola and Staple Method.

So it's always kind of been, I've always been a storyteller.

It's what I love, and I'm just lucky enough to get to do my favorite thing in the world for a living.

Holly> That is so cool.

Let's, let's talk about this book in particular, this latest one With My Little Eye.

How would you describe it?

>> It's the story of a working actor, not like a famous person, like a, like I'm a working novelist, you know, somebody who gets to make their living doing the thing they love most in the world.

And she's what I call an ex pat, by which, I mean, she's from Georgia, but she's been living in California.

Holly> Okay.

>> And a fan kind of gets obsessed with her, and she has a rule that she will never go back to Georgia.

In fact, she won't even fly through the Atlanta airport, which, you know, you can't, I mean, if you die before you go to heaven or hell, you have to go through the Atlanta airport.

Holly> Somehow, Right.

>> Right.

So, but the only job she can really get in her field is in Atlanta, where we have a lot of filming going on.

And so she takes it to get away from this guy, and she moves back into her past and back into her old culture, bringing with her, her 13-year-old daughter, Honor, who's on the autism spectrum.

And of course, because it's domestic suspense, you can guess that, that the stalker does not calmly stay in California going, oh, well, fair the well, good luck.

>> Right.

>> No, so it's kind of a, it's a little bit of family drama.

I think the heart of the book is the mother-daughter relationship, but you know, it's a Joshilyn Jackson book.

So I like a little bit of kissing and a little bit of shooting.

Holly> Okay.

Okay.

(laughs) >> Not too far away from each other.

>> I gotcha.

All right.

So let's talk about your inspiration for the book.

How, how did, how did these ideas come to you?

Joshilyn> Well, I mean, I could answer that question like, a hundred ways and it would all be true.

>> Okay.

>> A couple of things, like, for me, it's, it's always the characters.

The characters come first.

And Maribel is kind of like, I'm a former actor and playwright.

I was doing playwriting before I moved into novels.

So this is kind of a road not taken book for me.

Like, I kind of thought of going to LA and writing for television and trying to do some acting and standup and stuff like that.

But I, it, I didn't do that.

I ended up getting much more interested in writing novels, which, not that I'm a control freak, but it requires a lot less collaboration.

(whispers) I'm a control freak.

So it came from there, like, kind of exploring this road not taken.

And it also came from I wanted to write a, a, a female autist as the narrator, 13-year-old Honor is on the autism spectrum.

I am a diagnosed autistic.

I wasn't diagnosed while I was in my fifties.

>> Oh.

>> My daughter is a diagnosed autistic, and it's like heart disease or anything else.

When we study something, we study it in men.

So women on the spectrum look very different.

Most of us are, a lot of us end up as writers or actors because women are under so much pressure to be socially adept, to be connective, that we do these things that are like, they physically teach you empathy.

To write a novel is an act of deliberate empathy.

To be an actor is to try and get into somebody else's head and live that life.

In fact, my daughter is now an actor, like a working actor.

Like, she's doing regional repertory theater right now.

Holly> Okay.

>> So I wanted to, like, a lot of people think Maribel is kind of close to me because she's kind of a high energy, busy little person.

And I'm, I am too.

But really it's Honor.

The, she has a few chapters just interspersed here and there, and that voice is me at 13.

Holly> Oh, okay.

So whenever you mentioned the possibility or the, the idea you had once of becoming, of doing standup, you also acted, these, these are things that are out there on stage with people showcasing, but writing is more of an alone type thing.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> So it, it just seems so different.

What made you make that shift from one to the other?

And how has that been?

I mean, it, it sounds, you know... >> Weirdly, they're the same to me.

Writing a novel and having an acting job feels the same.

It, it's like it both, it starts here in the occipital lobe.

It's not up here in the gray matter.

It's about being somebody else for a while.

>> And when you're acting, you know, you, you just, you bang that fourth wall down, you are alone except for the people you're interacting with.

And they're pretend and you're a pretend.

So, I mean, I, I seem pretty extroverted, I'm sure, but I'm not, I'm a hardcore introvert.

I like people, I like being around people, but then I need to like, I need to gather my animals and be quiet.

Holly> Be quiet too.

Okay, so when you're writing, you're not bothered by the fact that you're alone.

You, you, you love it.

>> I write a lot in coffee houses.

Holly> Oh, you do?

Okay.

Joshilyn> I like noises.

Holly> All right.

Well, let's get into that.

Okay, so I, I've brought this up a few times.

I interviewed somebody who has to write with the sound of his dog snoring, which I think is hilarious.

So do, that's his white noise.

So do you have, you know, a white noise that kind of gets you into that groove of -- Joshilyn> Does he, is, does he drug the dog?

How do you get the dog to sleep?

This is a, this is a really sleepy dog, I guess.

But somebody said he really needs to record it on.

>> Yeah.

He'd need to think about that.

Okay, so do you have a certain white noise you -- Joshilyn> No - noise.

No, I need a ton of noise.

I don't care what the noise is.

At my house, I play music if I'm writing at home or I, I like to write at the airport.

I love the airport.

Great people watching.

>> It is.

>> Coffee house.

The only problem with coffee houses are the guy in the red tie who's really important.

Holly> Oh.

And he's on his phone, that guy.

Holly> And you're hearing all that.

Right.

>> Shhh, you know, peace be with you, sir.

But I need you to be a little more ambient.

Holly> Yes!

>> This is not a show about a guy in a tie, but it's always, it's always a red tie guy.

Holly> You're right.

You're right.

There is.

Joshilyn> So that's kind of irritating.

But yeah, any kind of ambient noise or movement around me is really good.

Holly> All right, so you said that you started at the age of three.

I've never heard anybody go back, go that far back.

That's quite impressive.

But I mean, so you've always been writing.

>> Yes.

Was there ever a stopping place?

Even though you weren't doing it professionally, but you were, was it a pastime at home sort of thing, always?

>> Yes.

Oh, yes.

In fact, I'm, I'm dating myself here, but Walden Books came out with this -- Holly> Oh, I remember that!

Joshilyn> -- blank book that was not a diary, like it looked like a book, but it was blank.

And that was, I guess I was in middle school, early high school, and I loved Stephen King.

I still love Stephen King.

He's probably one of my favorite writers.

So I started, I would buy these blank books and write a horror novel that lasted- It was as long as the number of pages I had if I started running outta time, the writing got -- Holly> And what age is this you're writing the horror novel?

Joshilyn> Middle school.

Holly> Middle school.

Okay.

>> And like, they were not, I, I mean, I'm just gonna be honest with you, Holly, they weren't great.

There was one called -- Holly> You had to start somewhere.

Joshilyn> Don't Go into the Woods.

Holly> Do you still have these?

>> My mom has 'em in the attic, she says.

Holly> Okay.

>> Don't Go into the Woods.

And it was about a bunch of girls who looked remarkably like the girls who were meanest to me in middle school.

They went into the woods one by one, and no good came of it.

Holly> Something happened to them.

We never saw them again.

Oh my gosh.

All right.

So who would you say influences your writing?

You just pretty much said, that's the mean girls in middle school did in the beginning, but who now, in terms of authors, and... >> I'm a super eclectic reader.

Like I'm a weird reader.

I think this is because like, I had a brother who was five years older than me.

And when I, I went to read Charlotte's Web for the 45th time, I was probably seven or eight years old.

And he thumped his hand over the book as I was trying to get it off the shelf.

And he was like, I cannot listen to you cry over that spider, one more time.

That was a spoiler, Charlotte dies y'all.

Sorry.

>> Yeah.

He, and he and I was, I, I was like, I'm gonna tell, and he's like, well, I glued all the pages together and you can't read Charlotte's Web, but I'll buy you a new one if you read this.

And he handed me a Conan the Barbarian book by Robert E. Howard.

>> Oh.

Which I had no business reading at eight.

But, so I was reading like high fantasy stuff like that, and low fantasy and pulp.

Love pulp.

And I was also reading all the expected girl books Like a Little Princess, the Secret Garden.

>> Yeah.

I read, tried To Kill a Mockingbird, when I was nine, and I thought it was a book about how to make Boo Radley come out like an adventure book.

And I've read it probably every year since, and it's been a different book for me every time.

But I loved that adventure book at nine, just as much as I love the book about justice that I read now.

So all of those things.

Oh, and I was stealing my mom's books.

I read Jaws at nine, I read Roots at ten, under the covers, absolutely forbidden.

And so -- Holly> Did you ever tell her that, by the way?

Joshilyn> Oh, yeah.

Holly> Okay.

Joshilyn> She was horrified.

Holly> Right.

And I'm still that way.

I'm still a hugely eclectic reader.

Like, my favorite book so far this year have been like, the book you would think I would be reading like the, the Lost Book of Flora Lee, by Patti Callahan Henry.

>> Yes.

>> Loved that book.

But I also loved Madelina and The Dark, which is set at a convent in, in, in Italy at the middle ages and one girl is there because inside this convent there was a music school, and this is true.

And she's ambitious.

And one girl is there because they're trying to get her to marriage without her ruining herself, which is a job of work for this girl.

And the two of them, like, it's about female ambition, and it's a little bit, it's a little bit magical and it's amazing.

And then I'm also reading like Grady Hendrix, I love, you know, the Southern vampires, the Southern Book Club's Guide to Killing Vampires.

So... Holly> It sounds like you do a whole lot of reading.

>> I do.

I think literature's a conversation.

And you need to sit down, shut up, and listen before you talk.

>> Well, I do love how, I mean, you seem like you're really into the story, the one that you're reading and the one that you're writing.

So how does it feel to you, whenever you can close the book and whew, I got it out.

Is there that moment of relief or is it like you, you gotta get to the next one?

Tell me about that kind of in between time for you.

>> The best book in the world is the one I haven't started yet, 'cause the one I'm working on is work.

And it's hard.

Oh, it's hard.

And the next one is so easy, it's just gonna fall out.

I see it so clearly in my head.

>> And you can't wait for it until you start typing it.

>> Until I start typing it.

I mean, at the same time too, there's this feeling like, you know how people say their books are their babies?

Holly> Oh yeah.

Joshilyn> Yeah, okay.

That's crazy.

You don't sell your babies.

I think of my books as my boyfriends.

Holly> Oh.

Joshilyn> And it's a very -- Holly> That's a first for me.

>> -- passionate, involved, intense relationship.

And sometimes it's really bad.

Sometimes we fight.

>> Yeah.

Sometimes it's really good.

And I just don't wanna be with anybody else.

And that relationship sort of runs its course.

And when I finish the book, it's like, we break up.

But it's a really good breakup.

Like, we're always going to be friends.

Holly> We've had a good time.

>> I'll always think highly of him.

I'll always love him.

>> Yes.

I want him to have a wonderful life with readers and bestseller lists.

You know, I want them -- Holly> This is a great explainer.

I love that.

>> But the new book is my lover.

The, my new book is -- Holly> Exciting.

Joshilyn> -- where my heart is.

Holly> New, new things.

Yes.

>> And also harder, you know?

Holly> Right.

>> Like the memory of that.

That's, oh, he was so sweet.

And you forget all the fights.

Holly> Yes.

Yeah.

Joshilyn> But the one you're with, you know, that's work.

Holly> I love that, explainer.

Okay.

I wanna make sure that we cover the, the autistic, autism part of the book.

>> Sure.

What made you decide to go that route?

And you told us that -- Joshilyn> So we knew my, our son was autistic.

>> Okay.

Because boys get diagnosed and he's, I mean, he's very, he's doing great.

>> Yeah.

He lives independently.

He has a job.

He has his friends.

He's, he's really just, he finished his degree.

He's amazing.

But he had a lot of intervention and a lot of help.

And when my daughter was in high school, she came to me and said, Mom, I think I'm autistic too.

And I laughed at her.

I mean, she's this outgoing little actor who's starring in every, she has the lead in all the high school plays.

I'm like, honey, you're not autistic.

Sit down.

>> Yeah.

And she and I, and she was, she was pretty insistent about it.

And I was like, well, why do you think you're autistic?

So she starts listing all these things.

And I laugh at her.

I laugh at this child, and I say, honey, that is completely normal.

I was just like, that.

Okay.

It's not normal.

And I was just like that.

And I'm eventually, I mean, she started showing me the list of, there was a book about what autism looks like in women.

And it was like a checklist of both of us.

So we went and started.

Holly> So it is different, men and women, this checklist you're talking about.

>> I mean, there's, there's certainly, like, for example, I have a phenomenal memory for the things I'm obsessed about.

>> Okay.

I've never taken a note for a book I'm working on.

I'll do whole interviews, I'll go on research trips.

I don't take notes.

I can't forget any of it.

It's all I think about.

So I've, I've got that autistic obsession with the topic.

It just happens to be my books.

You know, the story I'm writing.

And my memory for that is, I thought that was normal.

But like, I can quote from interviews that I've done with people that I, I just, it's, it's a pretty good memory for that.

But it seemed normal to me 'cause I'm living inside of it.

Holly> That's how you are.

Right.

>> Right.

So, I mean, there are certainly tons of parallels.

It's really in the way we present.

Like, I, I mean, I don't wanna be, I don't wanna guess what you're thinking, but I don't think most people, like sometimes when I tell people I'm autistic, they say, oh, I think we're all a little autistic.

Because they don't get, like, because I, I, this is called masking and I'm really good at it because I've had professional theater training and I know how to make facial expressions.

I learned that manually.

I know how to make eye contact.

I learned that manually.

Women compensate in social ways, in ways a lot of male autist don't.

We are under, you know, we're raised to be the social glue.

So we're taught these skills that we don't, it's different for boys.

So yeah, there's a lot of similarities, but the difference in the way we present makes us get missed.

And it's the same with, like, heart disease, like the difference in the way women present, their heart disease gets missed 'cause we've only studied men.

>> Right.

All right.

So, so your daughter read this book.

She came to you, you eventually said, Whoa.

Joshilyn> Let's go talk to somebody about this.

So you both get diagnosed.

>> Yeah.

And since by, by being diagnosed, do you feel that -- Joshilyn> Yes.

>> -- you're any different other than -- Joshilyn> Well, it's been kind of a big relief because people are paying attention now.

And friends of mine with very bright, very weird daughters.

Their daughters are getting diagnosed.

And I'm a comfort to them.

I can say, oh, she's gonna be fine.

Let's talk about what she needs.

And I know all the resources and stuff.

That feels really good.

And also, like, it's, let me forgive myself for a lot of stuff that I wasn't able to do.

Like, I, I have almost no executive function.

I married executive function.

And before I married that sweet man, I had my mother who was walking executive function.

And in between there, like, he was my best friend from the time we were teenagers.

So I knew him, but I didn't marry him until much later.

So in between that time, like, I failed out of multiple colleges.

I was unable to hold a job.

I, I, I couldn't do things that people who are neurotypical can do without.

I mean, I'm a pretty bright person, but I couldn't know when it was Thursday.

(laughs) I, yeah.

So, I mean, I have some, I have some challenges.

I have some challenges.

Holly> I'm so glad we're talking about this because I bet there are viewers who are like, wait a minute, this sounds just like me.

>> Yeah.

Or my kid.

>> Yeah.

And so.

Holly> By including it in the book, what are you trying to achieve for the readers?

>> I just wanted, like, I love Honor.

She's such, she's a whole person.

She's so real to me.

She's very key in the book.

And the way she thinks is...

I mean, it's very, it's first person.

I think it, if you, I think if you're autistic, you'll read it and be like, yes.

I mean, you know, if you've met one autist, you've met one autist.

We're weird and we're different from each other.

But there are these things that make us what we are, that I think, I don't know, I mean, like, when I get letters from readers, it's about Honor.

It's about her relationship with her mother for this book.

Something really special.

You know, I still, I still keep my hand in the acting pool.

I read, I read audio books professionally.

>> Oh, I'm glad you went there because I meant to.

>> Yeah.

Joshilyn> I read my own, I read for other people.

>> Yes.

I've read for Patti Callahan Henry sometimes.

>> Have you?

Okay.

Let's talk about that.

Joshilyn> Well, this book is really special to me because they did a whole cast.

And I wanted, I wanted a, an actor with autism to read Honor.

I read Maribel and my daughter auditioned and they cast her.

And so -- Holly> Wow, that's really special.

>> And so, I read the mom, she reads the daughter.

She's great.

She keeps it like, the director was like, the other, the other actors are all amazing, like people who I listen to all the time.

And she just, she keeps up, you know, she's, she's very good.

So.

Holly> So if you have a cast, are you all in the room together?

Joshilyn> No.

No.

It's different chapters.

>> Okay.

So it's different point of view chapters.

We all listened to each other.

>> Okay.

And approximated each other's voices for dialogue.

>> Oh good.

Which is really fun.

>> Right.

All right.

So are you, I'm just kind of envisioning this setup.

Is this kind of like a, you're in the comfort of your home when you do it?

Joshilyn> Oh, no, I'm in a studio.

Holly> Or do you go into a nice facility kinda.

Joshilyn> Yeah, with a sound engineer.

>> Right.

And I've got a director in my headset.

Holly> Because whenever I do listen to these, I'm like, this must to be exhausting to read all these words at once.

I know there's water breaks.

(laughs) >> I mean, yeah, there's water breaks.

Yeah.

I read this.

I read a hundred thousand word book in about three to four days.

I'm pretty fast reader, though.

And so, but I love it.

Like it's, it's an acting job.

For the first time last year I did enough audio books.

I qualified for my SAG card, which was like my 20-year-old self's dream.

So that was, that was kind of like, okay.

All right.

Holly> Okay.

I feel the need to ask you this question because of all that you do.

How many hours of sleep at night do you get?

>> Oh, yeah.

I don't sleep.

Holly> I didn't think so.

>> Yeah.

I, I sleep maybe four or five hours.

I mean, here's the thing, if you have a 20 hour day, you're really tired, but you have a 20 hour day, like you can get a lot done in 20 hours.

>> Yeah.

And I'm easily bored, so I'm always doing something.

Holly> Oh, my gosh.

This is, this is fantastic.

All right.

So we've talked about a little bit with My Little Eye.

What's on the horizon?

What can you tell us a little bit about?

>> I'm writing another domestic suspense.

It's set, it's actually part of, it's set in the Lowcountry in Savannah.

>> Oh!

>> I know.

It's so beautiful here.

Holly> It is.

>> It's, it's just so beautiful.

I I, we've, I've actually spent the morning kind of driving around Beaufort 'cause I had it in Savannah, 'cause I know Savannah, but I kind of feel like that's too big.

I think someplace a little smaller, but I need a river.

Holly> Oh yeah.

So I was driving around looking, took a bunch of pictures.

So maybe a piece of it will be set in Beaufort.

I really like it here.

Holly> No, we are Beaufort, South Carolina.

Beaufort, North Carolina.

>> Beaufort!

Holly> Yeah.

Yeah.

Joshilyn> Okay.

I did not know how to pronounce it.

Forgive me.

Holly> That's fine.

Joshilyn> Yes.

Holly> That's a common thing.

>> Yeah, I'm sure it is.

I mean, my name is, my name gets mispronounced all the time.

Holly> Right, as I did.

>> Great Big H in there.

>> Yes, looked like Joshilyn.

Holly> A silent H. I'm sure you hear it all the time.

I do.

Yeah.

Why?

Thanks mom.

But I mean, I do actually like it because it makes my name memorable -- Holly> It stands out.

>> -- but, which is useful.

>> Did we mention, we have a few more minutes, so I want, did we mention that you're from Decatur, Georgia?

>> No.

because let's do, 'cause I wanna talk about that.

'cause you made laugh explaining it.

>> Yeah.

>> Tell, tell me a little bit about where you live.

>> Decatur's like Mayberry, if you plop Mayberry down in the middle of Atlanta.

We're the only city that has Atlanta all the way around it.

So we're inside the perimeter.

>> Okay.

But we're our own place.

And it's very artsy fartsy.

We've got a festival for that.

It's illegal to not have a dog.

Like it's very, it's very like, tattoo parlors right next to the theological seminary, kind of right next to the vegan restaurant kind of place.

Holly> Oh, this is fun.

>> Yeah.

Lots of, lots of like, lots of like Jesus people with tattoos.

It's, it's a really cool intersection.

Lots of artsy people.

And I love it there.

I mean, it, it kind of, I grew up small town South and, and I like that I know all my neighbors and that it's real walkable and that we've got the historic cemetery right by the house and, and stuff like that.

But that I'm also -- Holly> It sounds like a lot of great material to -- >> Oh,yeah.

Holly> -- give you ideas to write.

>> Yeah.

You know, to surround yourself.

I understand now why you write in coffee shops 'cause Joshilyn> Oh yeah.

Holly> -- with the people watching there.

Joshilyn> Yes.

(laughs) Yeah.

Holly> It sounds good.

All right, so With My Little Eye is the one we talked about today.

Do we have a name for our next one or we're not doing that yet?

Joshilyn> I don't.

Holly> Alright.

Joshilyn> I don't even know yet.

>> We'll see what happens there.

Joshilyn>We'll see what happens.

Holly> And this is number 13.

Well, gosh, if you count all those Walden books.

Joshilyn> That's right.

>> We're in the hundreds.

>> 487 if you count, you know the ones I wrote that had six words in them when I was three.

Holly> I love it.

I love it so much.

Thank you so much for joining us.

This has been a lot of fun and very educational too.

I, I really like what, what we've learned today.

It's been, really good.

Joshilyn> Thank you for having me, Holly.

Such a pleasure.

Holly> Absolutely.

And thank you everybody for joining us here on By The River.

I'm your host, Holly Jackson.

We look forward to seeing you next time right here By The River.

Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than forty years, The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.