By the River with Holly Jackson

Holly> From a family of Cuban immigrants, Chanel Cleeton uses her family stories as inspiration for her Cuba Saga book series.

Chanel> My family came to this country in 1967 after the Cuban Revolution, and it was just a part of my identity that I really wanted to explore in, in my writing.

Holly> Her novel, the Cuban Heiress is inspired by the SS Morro Castle, a real ship going from New York to Havana.

Chanel> My latest book is The Cuban Heiress, and it is inspired by the true story of the SS Morro Castle.

And that was a luxury cruise ship that used to go on a round trip voyage from New York to Havana.

And this is set in 1934.

It's Labor Day weekend, and this is the last sailing of the Morro Castle.

And on the way back from Havana on this final journey, unfortunately, the ship did catch fire and there was a great tragedy that occurred.

And so this book is set with fictional characters aboard the ship, and you kind of meet them when they're boarding the ship in New York and take the whole journey with them until obviously the end of the cruise.

Holly> Chanel talks with me about her family stories of their exodus from Cuba following the Cuban Revolution, and how she writes stories that are influenced by those experiences Chanel> It was an opportunity for me to, you know, study another moment in Cuban American history.

I find those connections to be so fascinating and I feel like it helps me to understand my past a little bit better and to, you know, appreciate the, the heritage that has gone into making me who I am.

>> I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors as we sit by the river.

opening music Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

>> Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, your host for By the River.

Thanks so much for joining us today.

You know, By the River is the story behind the book.

We're not so much a book review.

We want to tell you about the author and how the author got to that story.

And this season we have a really great lineup and today is very special because we're talking to Chanel Cleeton.

Chanel, thanks so much for joining us and for joining us here on By the River.

Chanel> Thank you so much for having me.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Holly> Alright, so first just tell us a little bit about yourself and we can go all the way, tie it back to your ties to South Carolina.

So tell us a little bit about who you are as a person and a writer.

Chanel> So I'm a Cuban American author.

I write primarily historical fiction that's inspired, inspired by my Cuban heritage, and I have a special tie to South Carolina in that I went to law school at the University of South Carolina.

So I lived in Columbia for three years and really have kind of wonderful memories of my time here.

And I really often say that it was that time in law school, I think that really inspired me to be a writer.

So it's definitely very nice to kind of come back and, and see all that journey that I went on to, to lead to my writing career.

Holly> Also, we're excited about you being here and here as we sit in Beaufort, South Carolina, Beaufort County, just a little bit where we are right now is about an hours drive from Hilton Head.

That's where you were last night, you said you'd been there before.

Chanel> Yes.

Holly> But it's always fun to be, of course whenever you're here it's raining, but you're used to that, you say, because right now you're living in Miami where you're seeing some rain as well.

Chanel> Yes, yes.

Very much used to, to this kind of stormy southern, you know, summer.

So yes.

Holly> All right.

All right.

Let's get into the writing and tell us about your latest book and just a little bit about the storyline.

Chanel> So my latest book is the Cuban Heiress and it is inspired by the true story of the SS Morro Castle.

And that was a luxury cruise ship that used to go on a round trip voyage from New York to Havana.

And this is set in 1934.

It's Labor Day weekend, and this is the last sailing of the Morro Castle.

And on the way back from Havana on this final journey, unfortunately the ship did catch fire and there was a great tragedy that occurred.

And so this book is set with fictional characters aboard the ship, and you kind of meet them when they're boarding the ship in New York and take the whole journey with them until obviously the end of the cruise.

And you know, there's a unique cast of characters on this ship.

We have two heroines, Elena and Catherine.

And Elena is a Cuban woman who's on the ship.

And you learn kind of immediately when you meet her that she has quite a few secrets.

So she has a mysterious past and kind of is on the ship for a very specific purpose that unfolds as the journey goes on.

And then Catherine is an heiress, and I always sort of say that in, in quotation marks.

It's not a huge spoiler.

Early on you realize that she also has quite a few secrets.

And so the paths of the two women intertwine aboard the ship.

And there's also a jewel thief who's on board and kind of a few other characters who have nebulous motives that, that come out throughout the journey.

Holly> I'm particularly interested in the research process and historical fiction.

So tell me what you did for this book to make sure that things line up the way they're supposed to.

Chanel> So research is really such a huge part of my process, and not just in terms of the facts that go into the book, but the research really shapes the plot as well.

I find that the historical narrative is often a driving factor in my character's motivations.

And it often affects their, you know, actual physical ability to move throughout the ship.

It affects the plot in those ways.

You know, obviously you have limitations in that, you know, certain things have to happen on certain times.

So you have to craft the plot to get to those specific points.

So with this book, you know, because it was an actual tragedy that happened, there was quite a bit of investigation post fire on what happened.

There were a lot of interviews.

It was something that was highly studied at the time.

It sort of dominated the news at the time.

And so there were a lot of sources available, which was really useful to be able to kind of look back on and understand what it would've been like for the passengers on the ship at that time.

And also kind of getting a sort of a bird's eye view of, you know, what went wrong and how that influenced the future.

So I was able to look at a lot of primary source material, like those interviews, news articles, you know, that happened at the time from secondary sources.

And then also there was quite a bit of non-fiction written about the event that was really useful.

I also like to use photographs, for example.

That's a really helpful way for me to sort of get that perspective that I think is really invaluable when I'm trying to bring my characters to life.

And so really anything I can find on an event is, is what kind of goes into the heart of the book and, and is a useful way for me to, to kind of craft the lives of the characters in the setting of the novels.

And you know, fortunately I've written quite a few books now set in the 1930s.

And so bringing in, you know, the important elements of the great depression that you have going on, you know, in Cuba you had just had a revolution that had happened in 1933 and then also the end of prohibition.

You know, all of those historical factors really influenced the lives of the characters and also the conditions on the ship.

Holly> How did you go about making the choice to do this particular event?

Chanel> So typically what happens is the book that I wrote before, this was Our Last Days in Barcelona, and that one was set in the 1930s.

And when I'm writing a book, I like to just kind of take a macro view of what was going on in the world at the time, just to understand, you know, is there an important event that I need to mention?

Is there something that would've impacted my characters that maybe isn't germane to the plot of the actual book I'm writing, but is useful information?

And so when I was doing that research for that book, I came across this mention of the cruise ship that had, had this tragic event happen in 1934.

And it was one of those things that I knew didn't belong in the setting of Our Last Days in Barcelona.

That one's primarily set around the Spanish Civil War, but it was a, a kind of data point that, you know, stuck with me and I thought, 'Oh, that's so interesting that I've never heard of this.'

You know, there's some similarities to the Titanic, for example, which, you know, we obviously all know about and hear in popular culture, but the Morro Castle had, you know, primarily been a ship that, you know, with time had been sort of forgotten, you know, at the time, it dominated the narrative and a lot of people weren't as familiar with it.

And so I was really fascinated by that.

And then as I began to dig deeper into the ship, its origins and its history, I realized there was quite a bit of natural mystery sort of surrounding the fire.

You know, the captain mysteriously dies on the final night of, of the cruise, and there were, you know, extreme weather conditions that were impacting the ship at the time the fire happens.

There were rumors of smuggling going on between Cuba arms and people, arms going in and people coming out of Cuba at the time, and the ship being used for that.

And so there were just so many natural interesting points to it that it sort of stuck with me and I knew it was a subject I wanted to delve into deeper.

Holly> Why do you stick with the Cuban experience?

And was that the plan all along as you as you began writing?

>> So it wasn't necessarily the plan all along.

I wrote romance before I wrote historical fiction, and then when I started writing historical fiction, my first book for historical fiction was Next Year in Havana.

And that one was really inspired by my Cuban heritage.

My family came to this country in 1967 after the Cuban Revolution, and it was just a part of my identity that I really wanted to explore in, in my writing.

And so when I wrote that book, it was a really personal kind of powerful thing for me to, to look at, you know, the influence that that's had on me and also to kind of travel back in time through my characters and understand what that experience of the revolution would've been like for my family.

And you know, just from there, the characters sort of took on a life of their own.

I wrote a series of books that really centered around this fictional Cuban family that I created in Next Year in Havana.

And then with The Cuban Heiress, this is really the first standalone from that series in the sense that we don't have a Perez family member in this book.

But it was an opportunity for me to, you know, study another moment in Cuban American history.

I find those connections to be so fascinating and I feel like it helps me to understand my past a little bit better and to, you know, appreciate the heritage that has gone into making me who I am Holly> And understanding all this, has this included some travel on your part?

Chanel> So I have not been to Cuba primarily because it is kind of, I think a, a bit of a sensitive thing with my family, given all that they've experienced in the revolution.

We were going to go for a family reunion and it just became kind of a difficult subject for some of the older family members who had been through difficult times there.

Holly> Yeah.

>> So it's something I've kind of put on pause for right now, out of respect for that.

But it's something that, you know, being able to explore it with these books and being able to feel like I can kind of traverse these storylines with my characters has been so powerful.

And I think having these connections as well, you know, being able to talk about these books with people, hearing other experiences from other Cuban Americans and also people who, you know, aren't from Cuba, but perhaps their families have had similar, you know, experiences in their own countries.

You know, having those, those relationships and that insight has been so powerful for me.

So I'm, I'm so grateful for what, you know, these books have given me and, and just the experience that I've had writing them and, and being able to speak with readers about them.

Holly> Yeah.

Well, one of my librarian friends, one of her things I always overhear her say, especially to children is, you know, a book can take you wherever you want to go this summer because through the book you can travel, you know, to all over the world and everything.

And so really you're traveling to somewhere that you want to go, but you're not yet, out of respect, but you're taking yourself and the other readers there and there's a special beauty in that based on the story you told, I think.

Chanel> No, absolutely.

And you know, kind of anecdotally with COVID, a lot of us who write historical fiction, you know, that impacted a lot of authors being able to travel to places, and so it was kind of an experience where, you know, when you were writing and you were kind of stuck and you couldn't really go anywhere, having that ability to kind of delve into these books and feel like you were, you know, traveling to the places was certainly a nice thing I think to have.

And also, you know, we're so fortunate living in these times with technology to have the ability to do the research that we can and to get kind of the level of detail, you know, even if...for whatever reason you're not able to physically go to a place, you know, there's so many resources now, which I think is very helpful.

Holly> Right, and a Zoom interview with someone or something like that is- It still blows my mind even though we've been doing it for years.

It's just, it's really almost magical to me that we can do what we can do.

All right.

So let's back up to when you decided to actually write, I mean, tell me about your degrees, where you thought they were going to take you, and then how that pivot happened.

Chanel> Sure.

So my undergraduate degree is in international relations, and then I have a master's degree in global politics.

And I studied in England, so I did all my degrees in London at two universities there.

And then I went to law school.

I always thought that I would want to be an attorney and I went to the University of South Carolina and I have a law degree, but while I was at the University of South Carolina and studying law, I kind of realized, maybe it wasn't necessarily the right fit for me.

That what I thought, you know, I wanted to do wasn't quite it.

And I started thinking about what I'd been passionate about throughout my life, and I've always been a reader.

Books have always been such a huge part of my identity.

And so I just honestly for the first time kind of thought, well, what if I tried to write a book?

And I will admit, I wrote in some of my law school classes, perhaps, yeah.

I would sit with my computer and, you know, I'd be in torts, and I was working on my novel, but it was a... fun way for me to, I think have a creative outlet that I probably needed at that time during law school.

And I just got really fortunate, I did a literary internship, which was really helpful to help me learn the business and kind of understand, you know, that side of it.

And then I got an agent, got a book deal right when I graduated law school and kind of took off from there.

And I have been really fortunate to kind of find my passion and to be able to, to pursue that.

Holly> Do you ever look back and you're like, wow, this, this is wild how this all happened?

Chanel> It is.

And you know, I see so many echoes of kind of my academic life and how that's influenced... my career because, you know, a lot of the books that I write writing historical fiction, especially dealing with Cuba, you know, I deal a lot with political history.

Holly> Yeah.

>>...so I think having that academic background has been really helpful.

And then also law school, you know, you read and write so much and so being able to kind of condense large amounts of material when I'm doing my research is, is incredibly helpful.

And I definitely credit law school to, you know, all those nights of enormous amounts of reading that you would get and kind of have to synthesize into a small amount for, you know, the next day's lesson.

I definitely use those research tools when I'm doing research for historical fiction, as well.

Holly> Yeah, that's a good point.

All right, so let's talk about your writing style.

So is it, you give yourself so many hours per day or just kind of when the mood hits you?

How does it go?

Chanel> So I would say I'm very deadline driven.

I publish a book, a year, which typically that puts us on a pretty tight production schedule in terms of when my publisher will need to have the, the manuscript and when we have to go through the editorial process.

And so really that, that's kind of, you know, I know it needs to be in by X date and then I sort of work backward and see what it takes to get it there.

Often I'm working on sort of three books at a time, so I'll be writing one book, editing another book, and then probably, you know, marketing, publicizing another book.

So, Holly> Wow!

Now is that difficult that juggle?

Chanel> It is a little bit, I'll admit, Holly> Like, what am I talking about?

What am I writing about?

What am I reading about?

Chanel> Yes.

And I have to refresh my memory.

Like last night I will admit I had to refresh my memory a little bit because it is, you know, often you're writing, you're talking about a book you wrote two years prior.

Holly> Yeah.

>> So it can be a little bit tricky, but it just becomes sort of a, a multitasking exercise where you say, okay, you know, edits are due on this book, so I'm not going to be writing the new one and I'm not going to be, you know, doing too much publicity.

I'm just going to focus on getting my edits in.

And then when you have a stretch where, you know, you don't have a deadline, you really delve into writing the new book.

So it's probably another thing I learned from law school, probably another tool that, you know, I picked up there... Holly> I love hearing this because I think that the average, I mean, I know I'm in this category, the average viewer probably doesn't realize that.

Like when we are all as readers celebrating this big book, you celebrated it quietly, you know, a year ago when the rest of us weren't allowed to hear about it, you know?

And so you're now celebrating something else that we don't know about yet.

Chanel> It's kind of like having a little secret that you can't share with people.

Definitely, Yes.

Because you, But it's, you know, that's the reason too, I think it's so important that you have passion for what you're writing about because we spend really years, I mean, between the research, the writing, and then, you know, when it actually comes out and you're talking about it so much, you spend years with these characters, years with these subjects.

So you have to really be interested in what you're doing and be really passionate about it, I think to kind of keep that spark that carries you throughout the process.

Holly> Yeah.

All right.

Tell me who your close readers are, who you trust with these stories.

And I'm especially interested if any of those included are family members, because I know you said this is a kind of a sensitive subject for some of them.

Chanel> So with my first book with Next Year In Havana, I did consult with my grandfather and my father who lived through the revolution because I really wanted, you know, to make sure that I had a lot of those important details and things.

I knew it was going to be history that people had lived through that was very personal and important to them.

And so while the family is fictional and Next Year In Havana was fictional, I wanted kind of the, the spirit of the book to feel accurate, and to have that resonate with readers.

With my other books, typically my editor and my agent are, are the two that really have the most input and definitely my editor the most.

It's the editorial relationship is a very close one.

You really have to have a lot of trust and it's a very kind of personal one, I think in a, in a way.

You go back and forth a lot and it's very collaborative.

So I've been really fortunate.

I've been with the same publisher now for almost a decade, and I've been with the same editor for almost a decade.

Holly> That's great.

Chanel> So, we have kind of that -we know each other really well.

We know our styles and it definitely helps with the working relationship.

And same thing with my agent, you know, we've been together a really long time and it's nice to kind of have that, that trust and, and sort of that understanding with each other.

Holly> Yeah.

So those, those are your first readers and, and they give you the feedback and you're okay with taking the good, the bad and the ugly?

Chanel> Oh yes.

No, with, with the editorial process, we rip the book apart typically.

Holly> Yeah.

>> You know, it's always better for it, honestly.

I mean that, that first draft, I kind of give myself the freedom to do what I need to do to get the words on the page to start to see.

It's kind of like you're sculpting a piece of clay, you know, it's not- It has bumps and it's not quite where you want it to be, but you know, and trust in the process that when you go through edits is when you'll really fine tune things.

And kind of, I try not to be too critical when I'm writing, but when I'm editing, you know, that's when kind of that critical eye comes in and I'll be like, oh, what did I write this line?

Holly> Yeah.

>> It's terrible, Holly> So you say that answer now with being like book six or seven.

Book one, was it a little harder to take some of that criticism or do you think you were pretty good at it from the start?

>> I think I kind of realized early on and I was fortunate to, I think doing the internship probably helped me see the other side of it.

So I got to see the flip side of what it's like when you're reading someone else's work.

And I think it helped me to understand pretty quickly that I think for this business that's a pretty critical part of it.

You know, that's kind of what separates doing something that you love and then kind of turning it into, you know, a job where yeah, with like any job, you're going to get negative feedback and you know, you're going to get things that are trying to make you better.

And so it's part of that.

It's, you know, having someone that you trust in, I think is really important.

I mean, not every editor is necessarily the right fit for every author, but when you find that connection and trusting that they want to make your book better and that they have insight and a perspective, I mean, it's hard when you're so close to your own work to necessarily be critical, but when you can take that outside feedback and evaluate it, I think it's very useful to, to improving our craft.

Holly> Yeah.

I think that speaks highly, the fact that you all have been together 10 years that you really jive.

That's one of my favorite parts, which is probably strange to people, but it's one of my favorite parts about a concert is whenever the performer gets up and introduces the band members and tells how long they've been with them.

And I'm like, that really says a lot about this group and how they, you know, how they intersect and work together.

So tell us about who you are as a reader.

Do you read historical fiction or - >> I do.

Holly> - other genres?

Tell, tell me about the kind of word you read.

Chanel> So I am an avid reader and I pretty much read every genre and that's really influenced my writing.

So I mentioned, I wrote romance before I wrote historical fiction and I wrote young adult books before I even wrote romance.

So I've kind of written in a few different genres and I think it's really influenced by, if I like to read it, I like to write it.

And I think for authors, you know, reading widely and reading deeply in the genre that you're writing in is so important.

'cause it helps you kind of understand what reader's expectations are for that genre and making sure you're honoring that in your own work.

And then also I learned so much, you know, from different genres.

So I'm reading a fantasy book right now and you know, world building for fantasy is just so incredible.

And so, you know, I do it on a different level with historical fiction, but seeing that put into practice is, is a great way for me to say, okay, you know, what did this author do well?

How can I maybe look at that with my own work and, and see what I could do better on?

Or, you know, that sort of thing.

Romance is great for dialogue.

So when you read a romance, you know, they always have wonderful dialogue.

So I read with both kind of that professional eye of, you know, trying to use it as a learning experience for myself, but then also just the enjoyment of, of being a reader and escaping in the pages of the book.

So I, I love all genres.

I kind of go through different moods, but suspense is something that is a passion of mine and I'm, I've been slowly introducing that a little bit more into my own work as well.

Holly> All right.

So you said that you did young adult to start with, right?

Is that what the start was?

How do you approach that differently than the genre you are now?

Chanel> So I think really it's going back to reader expectations.

You know, what, what does a reader want out of the book?

You know, with young adults there are some similarities in that, I think, when you're looking at a protagonist, you want to see their growth, you know, you want to kind of feel the authenticity of the character.

And so that kind of comes into play with historical fiction as well.

You might just be dealing with a different age range and different life experiences that are then going to be formative for them.

You know, with young adult, you're typically in a high school age.

And so, you know, you're looking at what are those kind of formative high school experiences.

With historical fiction, you know, my characters tend to be kind of twenties, thirties, and so a lot of my protagonists, I write, you know, primarily female main characters.

You know, they're in the time period that they're in looking at kind of these constraints of what is next for me.

You know, is it, is it professional?

Is it motherhood, is it professional and motherhood?

You know, what kind of balance, what kind of expectations are my family putting on me?

You know, do they want to go to a university, perhaps, but, you know, maybe the family's fighting that?

So you see that character growth evolving just in a different life stage, I would say than, than when I wrote young adult.

But it's still kind of centering the protagonist their wants, their needs, and understanding what makes them relatable to a reader and also what would drive them.

Holly> What are you hearing from your readers now?

Do you have any like, special stories of those who maybe might fall in the category of you, in terms of, you know, wanting to go somewhere but not going there yet and that sort of thing?

Chanel> So I have a really special relationship with my, my Cuban American readers.

And I'm really grateful, you know, to them for, for kind of the way they've embraced my books.

You know, when I wrote Next Year in Havana, I had absolutely no idea, you know, that it would get the readership that it had.

Obviously, being picked by Reese's Book Club was a huge, a huge experience for me.

And it really kind of changed the trajectory of my career and I'm so grateful for that.

And so, you know, it, it was a little bit kind of daunting to have written a book that was so personal and that I had kind of this, this big emotional attachment to, and then having, you know, so many people read it that I never even imagined.

Yeah, no, I wasn't really thinking that was going to happen.

Holly> Yeah.

>> And I'm just so grateful for, you know, the reaction and, and the support that I've received.

And it's been so powerful to have people say I saw myself in those characters because I wrote kind of a lot of vulnerability, I think in a lot of my own, you know, feelings of being tied to a place emotionally and having it be such a huge part of my life, but having that physical distance that comes from, you know, being part of an exile community, having, you know, your family come as, as refugees.

And so it's really created a bond for me, you know, with those readers.

And I'll never forget, I think it was one of my first speaking experiences I did about the book.

You know, I read a passage from the book and it was a scene from when the characters are leaving Cuba at the beginning of the novel, and a woman was crying in the audience, and afterward she said how much it reminded her of when she left and she shared her story of, of what it was like for her.

And, you know, I think those are just those really special moments where you really feel like what you're writing, you know, matters and, and you see that it, it is having resonance with people.

And as a writer that's so powerful.

I mean, we hope for that, but that's certainly not some- thing you can ever guarantee.

And so to see that, I just feel so grateful that I'm able to have that opportunity and, you know, that I've been so embraced by, by that community in particular because, you know, I think we all want to see ourselves in books and there are certain communities that are not as represented as others.

And, you know, for the Cuban American community to support these novels so much, has meant a great deal to me.

Holly> Perfect.

Thank you so much for joining us.

This has really been a great conversation and I've enjoyed it and I appreciate you coming on By the River.

Chanel> Oh, thank you so much for having me.

This was really wonderful.

>> And thank you all for joining us here on By the River.

I'm your host Holly Jackson.

We always love having you around and we hope to see you again next time right here By the River.

closing music >> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.