Ask This Old House

Kevin

Today on "Ask This Old House"...

Nathan

This seems safe. I'm heading to Richmond, Virginia, to show you how to tighten it up. Can see that they actually toenailed through the base of the newel into the tread and also added this filler block, which they toenailed into the riser. Now the reason that didn't work is because they never got into any structure.

Mauro

Do you have paint on your old hardware? I'll show you how to take it off.

Heath

Us electricians seem to have a language that's all our own, from a single gang old work box to a fan-rated pancake ceiling box. I'll help you figure out what we're talking about.

Richard

If you have a dinosaur of a thermostat like this, there's a new way to upgrade to a smart thermostat without having to run new wires.

Kenneth

Hey,

Nathan. Nathan

Hi, Kenneth. How you doing?

Kenneth

Doing well.

Welcome to Richmond. Nathan

Thanks for having me.

Kenneth

Yeah. This is my wife, Micah.

Nathan

Hey, Micah. Nice to meet you.

Kenneth

Yeah. Welcome to our home. It's a 1927 Sears kit home.

Nathan

Oh, wow,

a kit home. Kenneth

Yeah.

Nathan

Wow. Nice. 1927. That was a pretty aggressive idea that they had there to let a homeowner go through a catalog and pick out all their parts and pieces, and then they'd package it up and send it out on a railroad car to you.

Micah

Yeah.

Nathan

Do you know what model you guys have?

Kenneth

It's the Van Jean.

Nathan

Oh, the Van Jean, nice, nice. Well, it's really aged well over the years.

Kenneth

Yeah, thanks. We've replaced the floors down here on the first level, and then this was the big project that we undertook. This used to be two separate rooms.

We had a wall here... Nathan

Okay.

Kenneth

...which separated our dining room from our kitchen. The kitchen was really small.

Micah

Yeah, I wanted a bigger sink and a little more cook space, and so we started thinking about getting a bigger sink, which led to different cabinets, and next thing you know, it's all open air so...

Nathan

Quick little renovation, nice.

Micah

Yeah, exactly.

Nathan

So, is this the newel post you guys wrote me about?

Kenneth

Yeah. So, this is what I e-mailed you about. As you can see, it's a little wobbly and squeaky, and, yeah, wasn't sure if you could help us out.

Nathan

I think I can help you tighten this up. Let me get some tools, and we'll get started.

Perfect. Micah

Perfect.

Nathan

So, guys, what you have here is a newel with a square base, but then below this, it's actually turned to a dowel. You can tell that by, if I pull it to the side...

Kenneth

Oh, wow,

yeah. Micah

Oh.

Nathan

You see the dowel under there?

Yeah. Micah

Yeah.

Nathan

So the way they installed this is, they framed out a pocket and slid it down inside. So, over the last about 100 years, people been coming down and rocking on it...

Yeah. Micah

Yeah.

Nathan

...and this problem's not new. You can see that they actually toenailed through the base of the newel into the tread and also added this filler block, which they toenailed into the riser, and the reason that didn't work is because they never got into any structure. I want to get into the stringer, and the way I'm going to do that is come through the newel post, through the block, through the riser and get into the stringer to really lock it all together.

Okay. Nathan

And I know where that is because I'm going to look right on top.

Kenneth

Oh,

yeah. Nathan

You can see the nails that they drove down through the tread into the stringer. So we have about an inch and a half of material that we're looking for that we can drive those structural screws right into.

Okay. Kenneth

Mm-hmm.

Nathan

So the first thing we want to do is plum up the newel post before we re-secure it. Let us know when it looks plum.

And looks good. Nathan

Looks good? All right. I'm going to use these cedar shims. It'll help protect the wall and the newel post but also offer a little fine-tune adjustment.

There we go. Nathan

All right.

Micah

Mm-hmm.

Nathan

I'm just going to mark where the screws will go. All right. I'm going to use a Forstner bit to create a pocket for the head of the structural screw.

Drill motor whirring

Nathan

I've already marked the depth on the drill bit using some painter's tape so I know how far to drill in. All right. You keep it square, and I'll keep it level.

Kenneth

Great.

Nathan

We don't want to split the newel post, the block, or the stringer with the structural screw, so we're going to pre-drill using a 3/16 bit.

Drill motor whirring

Nathan

You'll notice I taped off the depth on this drill bit, as well.

Perfect. Kenneth

All right.

Nathan

All right. Let's start again. All right, Micah. You're up. To tighten up this railing, we're going to use 6-inch structural screws. Come down just a little bit. There you go.

Drill motor whirring

All right. Micah

Okay.

Do the next one. Micah

All right.

Drill motor whirring

Nathan

All right. We should be pretty tight. Give it a shake and see what you think.

Kenneth

Oh, wow! That's much better.

Nathan

Much better?

Kenneth

Yeah.

Nathan

Little less squeak to it?

Kenneth

Oh,

yeah. Nathan

All right. Good. All we have to do is patch these holes, since we drilled 3/4-inch holes with the Forstner bit. Then I just picked up some 3/4 stock dowel. We're going to glue it up, drive it in... and then we'll cut it flush.

Nice. Kenneth

Yeah.

Nathan

Get that out of the way. Oh, great cut. We'll touch it up with some 220 sandpaper, and then we'll add some paint. All right. We just need a little bit of paint. So let's do this. Let's work right off the -- off the lid just for this...

That works. Nathan

...little touch-up.

Micah

Thank you.

Looks good. Micah

Thanks.

Nathan

All right, guys. You're all set. What do you think?

Micah

This is awesome.

Thank you so much. Nathan

You're welcome.

Micah

Yeah, thank you for coming.

Kenneth

Yeah, thank you for coming to Richmond.

Nathan

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. Kenneth

Yeah.

Kevin

Hey,

Mauro. Mauro

Hey, Kevin.

Kevin

What's for lunch?

Mauro

Well, we're cooking a hardware zuppa today.

Kevin

A zuppa?

Mauro

It's gonna be very nice.

Okay. Mauro

All right.

Kevin

So I presume we're talking about getting paint off of old hardware. Man, how many times have we seen this, right?

Mauro

More often and more often. So we presume that you're going in an old house. So you see, like, those beautiful old doors. You expect to see some nice hardwares on it.

Kevin

Yeah.

Mauro

But all of a sudden, you're looking at this.

Kevin

Right. But underneath it, you know, you usually have something good to work with. Right? I mean, there is nice hardware buried underneath all those layers of paint.

Mauro

Absolutely.

Kevin

So we've seen this before, right? Sometimes a slow cooker and boil it in there in some kind of solution.

Mauro

Well, yes, there we go. There's a lot of different ways. People use different techniques, like acetone, rubbing alcohol, or even paint strippers to remove the paint off hardware, but I like to use hot water and baking soda.

Kevin

Old family recipe right here?

Mauro

Always works.

Kevin

All right. Is this in there yet?

Mauro

Yep, we're going to add it right now.

Kevin

Okay.

Mauro

There's not the right amount that you can just...

Kevin

Can't overdo it?

Mauro

Can't overdo it.

Kevin

Right, it's baking soda.

Yep. Kevin

Not that aggressive.

Mauro

Not really.

So that should be good enough. Kevin

Okay.

Mauro

I'm going to put that aside. Now we're going to put some of the hardware in there.

Kevin

All right. Well, I don't want to do all this. So you pick a couple.

Mauro

Pick one, and we'll go from there.

Kevin

Well, I'll pick this one here.

You pick one. Mauro

All right.

Let's do it. Kevin

I love those old hinges.

Mauro

Let's dip right in there.

Kevin

And this guy, the plate?

Mauro

The red one.

Kevin

We'll see if that actually works.

Mauro

Let's do another one. Let's put this window locks... right there. Maybe we get this one, too. Let's try it. Right? Hardware zuppa. Obviously, if you're using this cooking pot for stripping paint, make sure that you do not use them for cooking anymore. Well, Kevin, it's been like 15 minutes.

Let's check it out. Kevin

Glove is on already.

Mauro

All right. Let's move this one out. And let's get this one here, too.

Whoa. Kevin

Yep.

Take a look at that. Kevin

Peeling off. So check this out, Mauro. It's just -- Look at that. It's just a sheet of paint that came right off, almost one piece.

Mauro

You can remove with your fingers, look at that.

Kevin

Peeling it right -- Wh-a-at?

Mauro

Oh! Look at that.

Kevin

Holy smokes, that's awesome.

Mauro

That comes right off.

Yep. Mauro

All right. If there's any paint that didn't come off so easy, so we're going to use this nylon soft-bristle brush.

Kevin

Soft brush.

Mauro

Yeah, don't use the wire ones. They're going to scratch the hardware all over.

Kevin

So the metal brushes, the wire brush is too aggressive.

Absolutely. Kevin

So nylon softy.

Mauro

Nylon softy, that's the way to go for it.

Kevin

Piece of cake, right?

Mauro

See, when you use the right technique, everything comes so easy with your fingers.

Take a look at that. Kevin

Love it, I love it. Look at that. Almost good as new, huh?

Mauro

Look at that. Just clean them off, and they can go right back on the door that they came from.

Kevin

All right. Check that out.

That looks nice. Kevin

Huh? Almost good as new.

Look at mine. Kevin

All right. Although, as easy as this was, we wouldn't have had to done any of it if people didn't paint their hardware.

Mauro

That would be the easiest way.

Kevin

So don't paint your hardware?

Mauro

No,

don't do it. Kevin

All right. Thank you, Mauro,

good tips. Mauro

You're welcome. Thank you.

Kevin

Hey,

Heath. Heath

Hey, Kevin. How are you?

Kevin

All right. Looks like you got the letters about folks not knowing what to buy in the electrical aisle.

Heath

It's a confusing aisle sometimes.

Kevin

Right? You think you know what you need. You go down there, and all of a sudden, all these options, and then you realize you have no idea what you need.

Big aisle of boxes. Kevin

So what do we do?

Heath

Let's start with the easiest and the most common, new work.

Kevin

New work, okay. And when you say new work, not new work that you're doing that Saturday. You're talking about new construction.

Heath

Not a new job but the type of construction. So new construction,

open frame. Kevin

Okay.

Heath

So, for something like that in a residence, we typically use new work plastic boxes like these, and the advantage to these is they're fairly quick. We can nail them right onto a stud, wire them quickly and then cover them up with the drywall.

Kevin

And they come with a little nailing flange and oftentimes a nail is embedded.

Heath

Exactly.

Kevin

And you've got enough room to bang that in, and so they go. They set themselves into them like that.

Heath

Little tab to set the spacing.

And look what you get. Heath

And that's the finish.

Kevin

And they're usually always plastic?

Heath

Not always plastic. We tend to use plastic more often than not when we're doing new construction. Sometimes you do run into metal, and that is an option, as well. It depends on the type of cable you have. So if we're using nonmetallic cable...

Kevin

With a plastic box?

Heath

We'll try to do plastic. If we run into metal-clad cable, we want to use a metal box.

Kevin

Got you. And what is it about the metal boxes that we like?

Heath

The metal box is actually designed with a clamp to hold that metal-clad cable, also accepts a ground screw, and that lets you ground and bond everything together.

Kevin

We want to make sure that metal box is grounded.

Heath

Correct.

Kevin

And this is new work, as well, so you presume that you've got enough room to screw through it...

Heath

Put a screw through there.

Kevin

...into

the stud. Heath

Exactly.

Kevin

So if that's new work, this is old work?

Heath

This is old work.

Kevin

So we've got an existing wall, and we're either going back into a hole where a box was, or we've got to pop another hole in.

Heath

Or we're looking to add something.

Kevin

All right. How do we make sense of these?

Heath

All right. This is one of our more common boxes that we use for old work. It's a single gang plastic old work. What you would do is you'd mark the outside of this box, cut the drywall, slide it into place, and then you'd actually tighten those screws and draw that clamp forward to hold it in.

Kevin

Got a little bit of a flange there. Look at you with the spinny display here.

Something like that. Kevin

It'll grab right there, and there is no stud that you're going into. So you could pretty much put this anywhere in the wall.

Heath

Right in the middle of a bay is fine.

Kevin

If it will hold. All right. What's the difference between, say, this guy and this one here?

Heath

So this one you can use on new drywall, as well, but this also helps if you have an older home with plaster and lath. If you can find the stud and cut right up against it, you can actually slide this in and screw it from the face.

Kevin

Yeah, look at that. So it's got a screw at an angle coming out that side, and the idea is that you can access it from the front, go through and drive that into the stud.

Heath

And secure the box right to the stud, acting like new work, but it's actually old work.

Kevin

Very clever. So these, you call them single gang?

Heath

This is a single gang.

Kevin

And then from there, we go to double gangs?

Heath

Something like a two-gang. You can go to a three-gang, a four-gang. It depends on your application and how many switches you're looking to put in.

Kevin

Right. And these two, for example, basically same idea. There's tabs, just twice the space.

Heath

Exactly. Just the different size, different application.

Kevin

Square or rectangle, and then the round guys?

Heath

We typically use these for lights. So, bathroom sconce, sconce in a hallway or living room. That's when we use something like this. Same idea -- cut a hole, slide that in, tighten the screws. It would draw back just like one of these.

Kevin

And if we were going above-head into the ceiling, different choices there?

Heath

Different choices there. In that case, I actually prefer to use metal even with the nonmetallic cable. I like to put something like this, a fan-rated box, that'll kind of future-proof things if they want to put a ceiling fan or a heavy light fixture, and we'll mount this to the structure.

Kevin

So a fan-rated box can carry more weight. And so you're going to go, even if you're putting in an overhead light that's not heavy, you're going to do a fan-rated box just to sort of the future-proof?

Heath

Just to cover ourselves, yeah.

Kevin

Okay. And that would just go right into the structure?

Heath

Exactly.

Kevin

But, of course, no one has ever put structure in the center of the room where I need to put my...

That never happens. Kevin

Never. So in that case, what do we do?

Heath

So in that case, that's when we come to this.

Kevin

Which we've seen you install before.

Heath

It's the same kind of box, but we cut that hole, slide the brace in, spin it until the two ends tighten up against the structure. Once that's tight, you could attach the box, and then you can still carry the weight of a heavy fixture or a fan.

Kevin

Literally expands into that gap and locks into the flanking, right. And then you can move that left to right.

Heath

Exactly.

Kevin

Okay, I think I get it. Next time I'm in the aisle, just make sure you got your phone on.

Heath

Sounds good.

Kevin

Because I'll give you call. Thank you,

Heath. Heath

Thanks.

Richard

Michael?

Michael

Richard.

Richard

Nice to see you.

Michael

Welcome, I appreciate the visit.

Richard

Nice to be here. You know, I see this typical American split-level, and I feel like I'm home. I grew up in one of these buildings.

Michael

My family and I love it here.

Richard

Right. So you wrote me about a thermostat.

Michael

Yes, I did. I've had the house for about 4 years, and I recently had an energy audit done, and they suggested that I'd benefit from a programmable thermostat.

Richard

So be able to turn the heat on or off during the day when you're not here?

Michael

Exactly. But that's where I ran

into a bit of a hiccup. Richard

All right.

Michael

When I went to install the new thermostat, I realized that the wiring in the house was not compatible with the new thermostat.

Richard

Okay. So, what, you only had a couple wires in here?

Exactly. Richard

All right. So... All right. So look at this. This thing is as old as the house. How old's the house?

Michael

It was built in 1962.

Richard

Probably is. All right. Yes, so there's no heat-cool switch, so I assume it's heating only, no air-conditioning?

Correct. Richard

All right. So, the way this thermostat is right now, it's a simple switch. "Yes, I need heat," or, "No, I don't." And so if I wanted to add programmability, I need some way to power the clock. So I could add a programmable thermostat that had a battery in it, and that would mean it'd have to have on-off periods that are the same every day and different on the weekends maybe.

Michael

Okay. But is that something I can access from the Internet?

Richard

No. With any of these modern ones, you're going to have to have a third wire, at least, to power it and a modern system with a heating-AC would need at least five wires, and that's where the challenge comes because it isn't always that easy to run new wires or fish new wires down to the furnace, wherever it is. All right. But there is a device that actually could let us reuse these two wires but give you full Internet accessibility. All right?

Michael

Well, that'd be great.

Richard

So why don't you go turn off the service switch down at the furnace.

I'll go grab what we need. Michael

Sounds like a plan.

Richard

Good. All right. Let's start by getting the old thermostat out of here.

Michael

Okay.

Richard

It's a pretty simple device back then. You set the temperature right here. Behind it, they had a couple different ways it could sense. Sometimes it was actually a mercury-filled bulb, and that bulb would fall and make or break, based on temperature. This is actually a little bimetallic sensor bulb here. They also have a spring, and so as the temperature changed, that spring would have more or less tension, and it would just make that switch.

Okay. Richard

All right? It has a couple of screws that we will get rid of. You need the right screwdriver to fit in there.

Michael

I figured that out the hard way.

Richard

You're so smart.

Both laugh

Richard

I'm going to take off that base plate. You might need a little bit of touch-up, or we might need to cover that with a new base plate.

Sure. Richard

All right. Let's go to the basement. I'll show you the new unit.

Sounds great. Richard

All right, Michael. Here is your oil-fired furnace right here. Here's your duct work going out. Return coming in the back. Thermostat lead from your thermostat right to here, two wires. So we've all seen some version of a smart thermostat. They often look like this, and this has a sensing point inside the building, and it's got smarts. It has a Wi-Fi connection going out and generally the five wires going down.

Okay. Richard

So the new unit will actually have all the brains that this has, but it's going to be in two pieces.

Michael

Oh, okay.

Richard

So, here's the part you'd see upstairs. This is the user interface. It's a touch screen. It's a sensor. It's also where the Wi-Fi will come and go.

Michael

Okay.

Richard

But now instead of having the five wires, it's going to just have the same two wires that are up inside the wall that used to just act as a switch, breaking and closing and opening. Now it's really a digital highway between this base module and the user interface here, and it'll provide power from the base module upstairs.

That sounds fantastic. Richard

Okay? Now what it gives you also is a bunch of choices in the future. Say you want to add air-conditioning.

Michael

Okay.

Richard

You just wire it out of the module. You want to add ventilation, like fresh air coming in, or even humidity, we can have that all come out of the module.

That's great. Richard

All right? So we'll start by getting this thing mounted right down here. All right. I'm going to mount it on this pegboard. It's a good central location.

Drill motor whirring

Drill motor whirring

That's great. Richard

All right. So, here is the two-wire that comes from our thermostat upstairs, and it goes right to the obvious spot right here, where it says 2 TSTAT. Couldn't be simpler. All right. So it doesn't matter which one is which, the red or the white, because it's polarity insensitive. All right. Keep coming, yep.

Great. Richard

All right. All right. Our connection's over here are R, C, and W. So R is red, W is white and common is blue.

Michael

Okay.

Richard

We can get rid of these extra ones, and I'm just gonna strip those wires. Blue to common, and the R is red. So I just make these connections at the furnace.

White goes to W. Michael

Okay.

Richard

Red to R. And the last one is the common, which is going to power the whole rig.

Michael

Great.

Richard

And that's the blue. Red, white, and blue.

Perfect. Richard

All right. Let's put the upstairs unit on. So this wall plate will do a nice job covering that patch.

Michael

Great.

Richard

You don't have to find that paint. Drill a pilot hole.

Drill motor whirring

Richard

Okay, that'll do a nice job right there. Ooh, look at that.

Nice. Michael

Great.

Richard

All right. So the connections are pretty straightforward. You can see the two holes right there. We're just going to push it onto it, and it should make a nice -- It does. One...two.

Michael

Great.

Richard

And now we just got to feed that into the wall. All right. Let's get that caught there. All right. You know what time it is?

Michael

What time?

Richard

Go turn the power on.

Michael

Sounds great. Power's back on to the furnace, Richard.

Richard

All right. You're going to love this thing. Look at this. So it's running now.

Michael

Oh,

that's fantastic. Richard

Okay? I picked the blue background. You can have any color you want. So you can change your temperature settings right here, and now this is programmed. That's your phone. Okay? So now you can remotely turn it up or down. You can double check out your operation. You can see how often it came on during a given month. So you can see. All right?

Michael

That's terrific.

Richard

So you're good to go.

Michael

Thank you so much, Richard.

Richard

Have a nice warm winter.

Michael

I'll try my best. Take care.

Richard

All right. Good.

Kevin

I love the sort of reuse of the two wires, although in this case, for communication and power.

Yeah. Kevin

The only downside is, you still have the control and the sensing in a hallway. What if I wanted it in a different location, like the master bedroom?

Richard

All right. So say you put that in, and you found it was the wrong control point. They do make a disk like this. It's a sensor, but you'd have to run two wires. So say that you put this in the master bedroom wall, you still have to run two wires down to here.

Kevin

But that communicates with this,

which communicates with that. Richard

Right, this is the sensing point, but that's the control point. That's how you change the setting.

Kevin

But in this day and age, Richard, why not wireless?

Richard

Well, people make wireless indoor thermostats. With that, you know, if you're doing a fair amount of Wi-Fi shipping, that's going to wear the batteries down quite often. I don't think battery technology is there yet, and you worry about radio frequency interference. So anytime I can, I love a clean beautiful wire to carry digital.

Kevin

Okay. Well, in any case, a good solution for him, so thank you. All right. Well, keep your letters and your e-mails coming. We'd love to hear from you. So until next time, I'm Kevin O'Connor.

I'm Richard Trethewey. Kevin

For "Ask This Old House." Work as a phone, too?

Richard

No.

Kevin

Hello? Next time on "Ask This Old House"...

Richard

I've never seen a shower valve like this in my entire career, and now it's leaking. I'm heading to Salt Lake City with a solution.

Heath

I'll show you how to refinish worn-out stair treads. The finish is very important on a stair tread. You really want to protect that wood. Once you break through it, water, dirt gets into the grain,

tough to fix them. Kevin

Yep.

Tom

And this garage roof is covered in moss, but the solution is pretty simple.