Armed in America: Faith & Guns

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Martin: We come together when it's time to grieve.

We turn together to our faith, to our God.

At these times, it doesn't matter what church you belong to or how you pray.

Not after another mass shooting... another accidental death... another loss of somebody's child.

But we are divided when it comes to how to stop the next one.

So what are people of faith called to do about it?

Guns kill people.

[ Indistinct shouting ] In the documentary "The Armor of Light," we watch Evangelicals who have been allies in the fight against abortion argue over whether you can carry a gun and still call yourself pro-life.

You're afraid of guns, you leave them to other people.

Listen -- I'm not afraid of guns.

You know one of the reasons that I'm afraid of them?

I'm not afraid of them.

Because I don't trust myself.

This evening, a town hall meeting at the Northland Church in Orlando, Florida.

We continue the conversation with faith leaders from across the country.

Join us for the PBS town hall "Armed In America: Faith and Guns."

Good evening and welcome.

I'm Michel Martin, host of NPR's "All Things Considered," and I'm happy to be partnering with PBS for an intimate conversation about a very big topic.

I want to thank our host, Pastor Joel Hunter, and the good people here at Northland church.

Northland is the largest Evangelical congregation in the state of Florida.

And next to me here, of course, Rob Schenck, the subject of the documentary "The Armor of Light," directed by Abigail Disney and her co-director Kathleen Hughes, who are also here with us tonight.

I want to remind everybody that we'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

So to start out, what are people of faith called to do, if anything, specifically about gun violence?

Reverend Hunter, what are people of faith called to do?

If anything.

Well, we -- we are always called to do something, um, and I believe that the Second Amendment gives every American the right to personally own guns.

Uh, I am alarmed at the increasing tendency and capability of a violent response, um, that's growing in our culture.

Personally, I own two guns, no bullets.

Karen Swallow Prior, professor at Liberty University.

That's a school whose president, Jerry Falwell Jr., has encouraged students to carry concealed weapons on campus, and you also carry a concealed weapon.

Am I right about that?

Yes.

Professor?

Well, as a Christian, for me, gun ownership and use is a matter of stewardship, um, so being a good steward of God's creation includes, for my family, using guns to provide food in an ethical way.

It also allows us to, if need be, God forbid, uh, to protect the innocent, but as in all matters of stewardship, it also requires a great deal of responsibility.

It's a grave responsibility.

The Reverend Kenneth Blanchard has written a book called "Black Man with a Gun," and he is a proud supporter of gun rights.

Reverend Blanchard, I know you feel very strongly, particularly as an African American, about the right to bear arms being part of a civil right that had been denied African Americans in the past, but does that point of view also intersect with your faith in some way that you want to tell us about?

In a big way, my thing on faith as it intersects is that... compassion is missing, personal responsibility is missing, and my job is to tell that we have a sin problem, not a gun problem.

Troy Newman is an ordained Presbyterian minister, a lifelong member of the NRA, and President of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue.

As a minister of the gospel for the past three decades, I've literally dedicated my life in the defense of the innocent human beings, starting from the moment of conception but also fighting all the way through natural death, and I believe that the scripture does speak to this.

In fact, Proverbs 24:11 says, "Rescue those unjustly sentenced to die," and so, I've spent the last two decades-plus of my life learning self-defense and learning a different defense mechanism so that we could defend innocent human life.

Dianna Hobbs -- in her popular blog, she writes passionately about Christianity and non-violence.

You know, I talk to a lot of women and men nationwide, and people have real, legitimate concerns.

They want to protect their families, but then I feel challenged by the word of God to see what would Jesus do?

And I just cannot find support in scripture for the use of violence, because Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, to love our brother, and so my challenge is to view it through a Biblical lens and not personal fears or feelings.

Martin: Shane Claiborne?

Amen!

What she said!

Shane Claiborne is an Evangelical community organizer who grew up with guns and who now leads demonstrations in south Philadelphia, where he melts AK-47s into shovels.

Just AK-47s?

Hey, any gun somebody will donate, we'll melt it down.

All right.

I believe as a Christian, Jesus is my model for everything, and I think Jesus didn't have a lot to say about standing your ground, but he had a lot to say about loving our enemy and turning the other cheek.

In fact, when his own disciple picked up a sword to protect him, he scolded and told him to put his sword back.

And the early Christians understood that as a powerful testament of non-violence.

They said, "When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian."

'Cause if ever there was a case for justified violence to protect the innocent, Peter had it, but he scolded.

And we see in Jesus this perfect love.

Jesus didn't carry a gun, he carried a cross.

Hobbs: Mm.

I want to remind everybody that we'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

Rob Schenck, I'm going to skip you.

The reason I am going to skip you for now is that the documentary "The Armor of Light" tells the story of a dramatic change in the way you came to view the gun debate in this country.

Reverend Schenck has long proudly considered himself a pro-life activist.

He has been a visible and public leader in the anti-abortion movement.

He was silent on the matter of gun violence until one day when a mass shooting occurred right in near his home in Washington D.C. at the Washington Navy Yard, and in the film, he describes the moment that he felt things changing for him.

Reporter: Tonight, the FBI is urgently seeking the public's help.

Reporter #2: Another mass shooting in America, this time at our country's oldest naval facility, the Washington Navy Yard.

[ Siren wails ] Man: At least five people shot.

We are confronting yet another mass shooting.

Schenck: What happened at the Navy yard was a very shocking episode of violence on a scale that was almost unthinkable inside a military complex.

But that military complex happens to be within sight of my own apartment.

So I grabbed my prayer stole and my Bible and did the only thing I could do and the thing I thought most meaningful to do, and I knelt and I prayed.

There were at least 12 dead people of gunshot wounds in my neighborhood.

Reporter: ...62-year-old Kathy Gaarde, 73 year-old John Johnson... Schenck: And I realized I have to address it.

Reporter: ...46 year-old Kenneth Proctor, and 61 year-old Vishnu Pandit.

Schenck: I'm not sure precisely what I'm gonna do about it, or even if there's anything I can do about it.

Do you -- do we, as Christians, own this problem?

Martin: Do we?

Do you?

Reverend?

I don't think anybody has a pat answer on how to solve the problem.

I think the answer is to approach this with deep spiritual values, deep moral values, and the first step is exactly what we're doing right now.

Are there certain things that we need to talk about again?

For example, the legitimacy of the average citizen being capable of owning an assault weapon?

You know, I-I-I don't see the justification for that.

There are certain laws that say you can't -- the average citizen can't own a bazooka, you know, but we can own a weapon that fires 50 rounds or whatever, you know.

Um, and that's not a hunting instrument.

That's not even an instrument of self-defense in all but the most bizarre scenarios.

So I just want to have the conversation just to see if there's not some ways that we can mitigate the damage that is being done by the proliferation of firearms.

Shane, do Christians own this problem?

I don't think that we own the urgency of what's at stake right now, where -- because growing up in east Tennessee, we had guns, we went squirrel hunting, we got country music that says, "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun, and if you come unwanted, you'll meet 'em both, son."

But then I moved to Philly, and literally this month... three people were killed two blocks from my house.

A 4-year-old was accidentally killed by her own father with a semi-automatic pistol, and I've traveled to a few other states -- I mean, this month, eight people killed in Ohio, five people killed in Georgia.

We had a 2-year-old kid in Milwaukee that shot his mom.

A 2-year-old in Indiana that found a gun and killed himself.

I mean, this is a crisis, a public-health crisis, and I think -- you know, Pastor said we have a sin problem, not a gun problem.

I think why does it have to be either or?

We've got a sin problem and a gun problem.

Troy Newman, do you, as a Christian, as a person who sees yourself as a defender of life -- do you see gun violence as your issue?

I would see violence as my issue and stopping violence as -- you asked earlier, do Christians own this issue?

I believe we own the higher moral ground on this issue.

If you look at the Declaration of Independence as the founding by-laws for our country, it says that rights come directly from God, and the first right given to us and codified by the government is the right to life.

And when we look around the world, we look at the people who are not Christians -- the Communists in Communist China.

Mao Tse-tung killed 40 million people.

Stalin killed 60 million people.

Nobody on this panel is in favor of gun violence.

We're here to stop all violence, and the best way to do that is to have armed personnel that are guarding this building right now.

I want to remind everybody that we'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

Reverend Blanchard, in 2015, there were more mass shootings than there were days in the year, and that means a shooting in which four or more people were killed.

Is this a problem that Christians, particularly those who consider themselves pro-life, should prioritize?

Let's back it up.

Let's back it up.

First, the gun itself is not the problem.

We can have a million guns sitting over here in this corner for 30,000 years and nobody will die because of it.

It's the people that we have behind them.

We have made the gun this demonic symbol that since we have the freedom in this country to sport shoot, to hunt, to recreation, to collect, for whatever reason you have a firearm, it is assumed that because you have this firearm, you are now an evil person.

The round that's used in an "AK-47" is also a deer bullet.

It's also the same thing.

So do we have worse people in this country than other people that don't have as much gun violence?

No.

Are the people here just bigger sinners?

The freedom -- Worse people?

...we have so much freedom, we take ourselves out.

We no personal responsibility.

Nobody wants to take control of their own actions.

We want -- We are professional victims, almost.

And we would rather say, "It is the gun than my cousin who is out of control, has been out of control since I was 7, but now we blame the gun because the gun is PC."

Dianna Hobbs?

The Bible teaches us that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

Who can know it?

And when we begin to feel like we are good, we get in trouble.

And as Christians, we have to begin viewing ourselves as flawed.

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

We have no goodness of our own.

That's our fundamental mistake, so what do you do with that gun in your hand?

Whatever your wicked and deceitful heart tells you to do.

You ready to get in it, Reverend?

Ooh.

Oh, I'm percolating.

You ready?

First of all, in my Evangelical tradition, we'd say, "That'll preach, sister.

That'll preach."

Pastor, I can't disagree with you more because just what we're talking about here is the sinfulness of the human heart, our -- our disposition towards doing evil.

Well, you put a lethal instrument in the hand of a person who has that impulse, and now you have a destructive force you didn't have before.

I think if I asked anybody on this panel, which would you rather face, a sinner with a baseball bat or a sinner with an AR-15, you'd probably take the baseball bat.

Y-You asked are there more evil people in other countries, and I started this debate by talking about the other countries that didn't kill thousands or hundreds of thousands, but multiple millions, and the difference is those people that were murdered were victims.

The first common denominator was they were disarmed.

What would you rather have, Reverend Schenck?

If someone was coming in this room with an AK-47, would you want a bat, or would you want to meet force with equal force?

Well, and you're setting up a scenario, Troy, where I have to buy a gun because you have a gun.

Oh, and the guy next to you has a gun, so you guys better buy a gun because we all have guns.

And now we start feeding I think what pastor was talking about, a culture of violence, where my disposition is, "I have to protect myself violently against you because you might act with violence against me."

I think that's contradictory to a Christian culture.

I would love to know if there are others here who have stories they would like to share.

Uh...Reverend Wright, I believe?

Yes.

Yes.

Your church is-- My church is Heal the Land Outreach Ministry in Fayetteville, North Carolina.

And as I understand it, if I have the story right, at a watchnight service, you were confronted, just this past New Year's Eve, correct?

Absolutely.

You were, in fact, confronted as you were preaching by an armed person.

Uh, yes.

On New Year's night, I began to talk about the violence that takes place in our country, in our, uh, cities around our country.

And the gunman walks in with a semi-automatic, uh, assault rifle, uh, with a fully loaded clip.

My members thought that I staged it to give the message more of -- of a reality.

[ Chuckles ] Initially, I thought it was a dummy weapon, but when I saw the ammunition shining, I said, "This is real."

Well, I-I'm retired military, so I understand weaponry and I understood what I had to do to disarm him.

I asked him, "Can I help you, sir?"

And it was dependent on his next response whether I would -- I was close enough to him to -- to grab him, to disarm him if he would have got belligerent or anything of that nature.

But he said, "Can you pray for me?"

So when he said, "Can -- Can you pray for me," I said, "Well, w-what's the problem?"

He still had the weapon.

And, uh, he said, "Well, I just need you to pray for me."

You know, of course, I'm -- he got a weapon, I'm-a pray for him.

[ Laughter ] So, uh, I said, "Will you give me the weapon?"

He -- He gave me the weapon and ammunition.

I gave it to one of my deacons, and I patted him down and frisked him.

I-I have to ask you this, because you did, in every sense of the word, disarm him.

Mm-hmm.

What do you think -- what was your weapon of choice?

Love was my weapon of choice.

I-I felt no fear.

My faith kicked in when he said, "Pray for me."

I looked into his eyes, and I saw his soul.

I saw his humanity.

And the love of God kind of just filled the room.

Um, and I was more concerned about him at that point.

You know, a lot of times, we look at the outer appearance.

We look at people how they look, the color of their skin, they're white, they're black, their hair, texture, or the clothes they are wearing.

It's not about the outer surface at all.

It's about the heart.

And it's about love.

When I looked at him, he looked scary.

It was a dangerous situation a-at the church that night, but things have changed at my church since then.

How so?

Do -- Do you now have armed guards?

We -- We have armed guards.

Um, you know, I myself am a concealed-weapons permit, and -- Did you have that before?

I was in the process of getting it.

I was waiting for, you know, the courts to finish the paperwork.

Does that not seem a contradiction to the story you just told us?

It seems to be that you -- or it doesn't?

No, see, the problem is -- see, I believe that there -- that we are wrestling in a spiritual warfare.

There is demonic influences in our world.

Now people will walk into your church and they will just kill people.

People wouldn't want to come to a church if they thought that you didn't have some mechanism in place for them to be safe while they worship.

All right, well, thank you.

I might come back to you.

Sir?

You are...?

I'm Reverend Anthony Thompson from Charleston, South Carolina, and I'm here to, uh, just give you a brief story on the Emanuel Nine incident.

My wife was a victim of that incident.

In Charleston, South Carolina.

Mother Emanuel, a historic church.

Dylann Roof came in and actually joined the Bible study, and at some point, he killed everybody there.

Those he could.

And um... since that day -- I mean...I knew g-gun violence was prevalent, but I never really paid any attention to it until it happened.

He had an assault weapon.

And, um... how he obtained an assault weapon, because of a loophole in South Carolina's, um, gun laws.

And, uh, that's one of the things I'm advocating for right now.

What are your thoughts about what should happen now?

Well, s-some laws need to be changed.

You have gun shows and who don't do background checks at all.

And so if someone cannot obtain a gun legally, they'll just go to a gun show.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We are sorry for your loss.

I think I speak for everybody when I say we are so sorry.

Did you want to add something?

Do you mind stepping out here with me?

I'm Rabbi Steve Engel.

I want to question the panel a little bit because we are all people of faith, and I know that in my tradition, which was the first of the traditions here, and we all grow from the Jewish tradition, is that we believe that the sanctity of life, the saving of life, and the -- the -- the security of life is the primary value in all of our religious traditions.

It doesn't -- I'm with a friend here -- my two friends, the Imam and the Reverend -- we have the same.

No matter what religion you follow, we would probably all agree that the sanctity of life is most important.

And yet, in this discussion, we've focused a lot on guns and the kind of guns and all that, and I'm not an expert in guns.

I'm not an expert in the Constitution, but I am an expert in faith.

And if that is true that the sanctity of life is most important for people of faith, then the question that I ask all the panelists, and I think the movie did an expert job in bringing this out, is that if we focus only on that issue, of the sanctity of life, then I have to say that I disagree with some of the gentlemen here, that I think that guns in our country have taken away more lives than saved lives.

So I want to ask, as people of religion, if sanctity of life is most important and it's been proven that we haven't saved lives with guns but we've killed more people with guns, then shouldn't we as people of faith do something about guns in our country?

Thank you, Rabbi.

Thanks.

[ Applause ] Troy, did you want to respond?

Well, I would say first of all, I hear the rabbi's frustration and the frustration and terrible tragedy of having your wife murdered.

I am not a politician.

I am not a lobbyist for the gun-maker.

I'm not even a spokesperson for the NRA, but I'm a minister and a minister first.

And I know that the Bible does teach us to defend innocent human life, and I think as Christians, we do own the higher moral ground.

Uh, there was a church shooting in Colorado just a few years ago where a gunman came in with a full-blown AR15, a lot of clips, but one person with a pistol stopped that from being a two-person murder from being a mass homicide in that church.

She was a police officer.

Important to -- She was a volunteer and former police officer.

But she was a licensed police officer.

But thank God she was volunteering that day.

Thank God she was.

And so again, nobody is in favor of -- of gun violence or the proliferation of criminals owning guns.

I believe that we can stop a majority of the gun violence that we have in this country with the laws that are already on the books.

In Hesston, Kansas, a criminal got a gun.

The people in San Bernardino -- the -- the terrorists in San Bernardino illegally obtained these guns.

Martin: But why don't we, then?

Enforce the laws that are already on the books.

If -- If we can stop this level of violence -- and first of all, I do have to say, it's not that I think people are in favor of violence.

The question is whether they find the status quo acceptable.

That's right.

That's really the question.

It's not acceptable, and that's why -- But so the question, then, if you could stop this with the laws that are already on the books, why don't we?

Can't.

Why hasn't it?

You can't.

Michel, m-may I just comment?

And, you know, I listened to the pastor over here, and the confrontation that you had with that man -- that to me is a beautiful testimony of our deepest Christian core principle.

Now, if you had drawn your glock and put it right in that man's forehead, I wonder if that would have been the same testimony of faith that you exemplified in that moment of love.

I would say that was a greater act of courage than drawing a weapon could have ever been.

Martin: So -- So do you think that the Reverend Wright is now lacking in courage because he has now made the decision to arm his congregation, to have armed guards?

No.

No.

Do you think that?

We're -- We're human.

I can't say what I would do in a violent confrontation like that, because look, you know, we are all made of the same flesh and blood.

So for me, this is a spiritual issue.

It is not a legislative or political issue.

I think it is best solved in the kind of discussion we are having here.

Because the Second Amendment is not the last word for believers.

There's a commandment higher than the U.S. Constitution.

Much higher.

[ Applause ] And -- And we answer to that.

I want to remind everybody that we'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

I do want to acknowledge that we have with us tonight individuals representing a variety of congregations.

Many of the religious leaders here worked with Reverend Hunter on an interfaith council, uh, to heal the community after the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, which took place in the Orlando area.

Would you mind standing so that we can acknowledge your work, those of you who have been working with this so we can acknowledge you for the work that you've been doing?

[ Applause ] Thank you.

Thank you all for coming.

That shooting of Trayvon Martin led to a national debate on something called Stand Your Ground, the Stand Your Ground laws, and I think Captain Mark Canty is here.

Thank you.

He is the chief of the SWAT team in the Orlando area.

And, Captain, do you mind if I could just ask you?

What is Stand Your Ground?

I think a lot of people think, "Well, what's -- How is it different from self-defense?"

Before Stand Your Ground, you had the duty to retreat before you, um, were allowed to defend yourself.

When -- When the Stand Your Ground Act came into effect, if someone is -- is presenting a deadly force threat to you, you no longer have to retreat.

You can defend yourself.

Do you mind if I ask you your opinion of this?

Sure.

Um...

I'll tell you.

Um...I'm Muslim.

Um, I feel that my job is a calling.

Um, and I mean it to the deepest of my core.

And every day, I get up and I-I put on body armor and I put on a gun, um, and I go out and -- and I try to fight the evil out there.

Unfortunately, I think there is -- there is a lot of evil.

If I could be, or the officers could be, everywhere at every given moment, that would be great.

But we can't.

And I think people should have the right to -- to defend themselves.

Right.

It's still about good judgment.

Mm.

And it's still in your heart.

I-I've been on the SWAT team for 16 years, and I-I was a sniper for seven of -- of those years.

And I have had people in a scope, and I've looked at them and they've been -- um, I would have been completely justified in taking their life.

But I didn't because there was other -- there was other methods at the time.

Well, you've given us a lot to talk about here.

Thank you.

Reverend Hunter, you -- you wanted to respond.

The officer raised a couple of -- of -- of questions that kind of launch us into a different, uh, different field.

Number one, Stand Your Ground is not, uh, merely a self-defense mechanism if you're attacked.

It calls for your interpretation of whether or not you will be harmed.

That calls into a-a whole different field of "I perceive that someone is a threat to me."

Now, he's right.

We live in a violent society.

We're being trained.

Our kids have video games that they just, you know, everything's kill this, kill that, and so on and so forth.

We more and more have a media that is telling us that we are under attack.

If you are carrying, you already have a level of fear that you could be attacked.

And so, part of this is not just can you defend yourself.

It is is there a cultural trend to assume that someone, especially someone different than you, that you don't know, is your enemy or going to attack you, and does then that provoke something that is an overreaction that now has the capability that wasn't there before?

Our -- Our rhetoric has become attack rhetoric.

It's no longer, "Can we have a discussion?"

It is, "If you don't agree with me, you're now my enemy."

And that -- that just gets a whole lot of people in trouble.

All right, I'm gonna walk over here.

I'm gonna ask Lucy, do you mind, uh, joining us here?

Lucy McBath, uh, is the national spokesperson for a group called Moms Demand Action.

So, Lucy, you became an activist after your 17-year-old son, Jordan Davis, was killed.

McBath: In Jacksonville, Florida, in what the country has deemed "The Loud Music Case."

And in my situation, my son was murdered based upon a person's ability to use a firearm, uh, expansively, based upon a perception of fear and threat -- not even a credible threat.

Martin: In the film "The Armor of Light," uh, you describe learning about it from Jordan's dad, and we're gonna just play that clip.

McBath: It was the day after Thanksgiving, and I picked up the phone and said, "Hey, Ron, how you doing?

What's going on?"

You know, "Happy Thanksgiving."

And there was just silence.

And I said, [Voice breaking] "Where's -- where's Jordan?

What's wrong with Jordan?"

And he s-- he said... "Jordan's in the hospital."

He said, "Jordan-- Jordan's been shot."

And I just started screaming, and I was like... "What's wrong with Jordan?

Is he okay?"

And he said, "I need you -- I need you to get on the first plane and come down here."

Narrator: Jordan was killed in an altercation at a gas station by a man who shot into this SUV.

The man later said Jordan and his friends were playing loud music and that when he asked them to turn it down, he felt threatened by them.

He pled self-defense, with his lawyer citing Florida's so-called Stand Your Ground law, but a jury convicted him of first-degree murder and he's serving life in prison.

Lucy, obviously, there is so much that we could talk about here.

Thank you for -- It cannot be easy for you to keep talking about this, um, but you have been willing to.

And you are particularly interested in talking with people with faith about this issue, and why is that?

Why are you willing to keep reliving this?

Because people's lives are at stake, and the preservation and sanctity of human life is at stake.

As a Christian nation, as a nation of faith, we have lost our way.

When people that even consider themselves Christians can use violence as a means to act out their fears, we have lost our way.

If we are a nation that is founded one nation under God, where is the God in the systemic violence that is played out every single day across the nation?

That is not what God advocates.

God does not advocate that, you know, violence begets violence.

We cannot continue to live in fear, and fear is of the enemy.

That is not of God.

And so if we continue to live in the ways that we're living, it's almost as if we are -- we are giving in to the fears that have been, um, just played out all over the country, and people are dying.

91 people a day are dying in this country, senselessly, over fears.

So -- so you're telling me that 90 people have died due to gun violence in this country.

91 people, every single day.

And since even Sandy Hook -- 150 school shootings have -- have happened since Sandy Hook.

That's almost a school shooting every single week.

We have lost our way.

Thanks, Lucy.

Thank you.

[ Applause ] Um...Troy Newman, I-I just have to ask you as a person who sees himself as a person who's dedicated to the defense of innocent life, what do you say to Lucy?

I mean, would a good guy with a gun have saved her son's life?

I -- What do you say?

Well, first I would say, as a father of five children, I can't imagine the loss of my own child, and just the tragedy and heartbreak that you felt.

And I completely understand and empathize with you, and I think we may just be coming at it from slightly different angles.

I heard you mention the sanctity of human life.

You're in this to save innocent human life, and that at my core -- and Rob, who I've worked with for 25 years -- is who we are.

That's what we believe.

That's what we fight for.

The Bible says, "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend."

Jesus did that for us.

We are to emulate that.

We are to model that love.

That's who we are.

Okay, but the -- but the question that Lucy and the question that Reverend Schenck have posed to you -- you Troy Newman and to you, Reverend Blanchard, and to others -- really, to all of us here -- is can you be pro-life and rely on the gun as your means of walking in the world, and can you be pro-life and be pro-gun at the same time?

That's the question.

Yes, and first of all, Jesus told his disciples, when he was going to the cross, "If you don't have a sword, go buy one."

That was an instrument of -- of self-defense.

He said, "Sell your coat if you don't have -- " "We've got a couple," they said, "Well, that's enough."

You see, the concept of self-preservation, of preserving innocent human life, the fact that there are armed officers at this church right now and around the country, that we hire police officers, FBI agents, military personnel, to carry guns for us, to protect us, is a testament to the fact that we are a Christian nation because we value innocent human life.

I said it before -- we need to enforce the gun laws.

Thankfully, that horrible man was convicted of murder, never going to see the light of day.

And I'm against the death penalty.

That's how much I believe in -- in preserving human life.

But her son is already gone, so does that... make it okay that he's -- the man who killed him has been held accountable for no reason?

The idea of punishing somebody for a crime that they did is so that the people, the Bible says, will hear and fear.

They will hear what happened and they will fear that same thing happening to them.

Let's portray that on the evening news, that this man is spending the -- the rest of his life in jail, so the next time these fools pick up a gun and think they're standing their ground, or whatever defense that he tries to make for murdering somebody, other people will say, "I can't do that."

Look, I am trained in several forms of martial arts, several forms of defense, and the fight we win every single time is the fight we don't get in.

The fight we don't get in is the fight we win.

Who else wants to say something?

May I just -- counterpoint, with all due respect, to my friend of many, many years, uh, whom I love as a brother in Christ, and -- and we preserve our friendship even though we have a big difference here.

But I'd like to tag it to what the rabbi said earlier.

Uh, I think we share in common an absolute respect for the sanctity of God-given human life, and I think where this argument, Troy, falls apart is that it forces us to categorize people and say that there is a person who has absolute value and there is a person who doesn't.

And the person who doesn't is the threat to me, or at least the person who I perceive as a threat.

And I can neutralize the threat, and that to me is a process of dehumanization.

We start categorizing people.

We can neutralize threats -- not take human life, but neutralize a threat -- so I first have to dehumanize you, and, Troy, you and I have spent 30 years talking about the process of dehumanization.

When the pro-choice movement talks about the fetus as compared to the unborn child, there is a process of dehumanization of that child.

When I start talking about a threat rather than a human being, including an enemy that Jesus commanded me to love, and then I have to ask the question, can I love my enemy with a bullet to the middle of his head?

And that's -- we're talking about killing human beings.

I want to remind everybody that we'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

So you came to this concern relatively late in your career as an activist, and I'm just wondering why.

Schenck: I had harbored for a long time a concern that we were experiencing a crisis of faith in our Evangelical community.

And I can only speak for the Evangelical community, but I suspect this carries over to other communities of faith, too, where there was something about this kind of jumping on a cultural bandwagon of a populist gun culture that was being promoted not by Christians, but by secular forces in our society.

And I would call the NRA, for example, a secular organization that does not have core faith principles, and I was seeing a lot of my people, including my -- my colleagues in ministry, other Evangelical clergy who were kind of getting swept up in this, that I think is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Professor?

Th-The problem with the lack of respect for life and with violence and, um, and disrupted communities is that we don't approach these issues from a holistic view, and this is what I think the church has to offer.

The word "community" has come up a lot tonight, and these answers must be solved in community and in communities because communities are different, and, uh, stewardship within communities is different.

So for example, in the rural communities where I live, we eat ethically by providing -- trying to provide as much as we can for our own food by harvesting and hunting food.

That's what I eat, um, and that's -- it's ethically sourced.

C-Can I ask you why you carry a gun?

Um, my husband bought me a hand gun a few years ago because I'm a runner and we live in -- in a rural area, uh, and the only places I have to run are on isolated roads.

And, uh, I was harassed and stalked by, um, a man, and, uh, a gun would never be my first choice of self-defense.

I have several, uh, now strategies of self-defense.

I feel like as a steward -- good stewardship of my own life, uh, and my own time and my own, um, gifts before God, to protect myself with whatever.

Do -- May I -- May I ask you, with respect...

Yes.

...can you envision yourself actually shooting someone?

I cannot picture myself doing that, no.

But, you know, w-when people talk about, um, giving up your life for your faith and, um, what Jesus would do and turning the other cheek, I mean, I am a Christian and I believe those things, but I don't think giving -- being willing to give up your life for a brother or being willing to sacrifice your life for your faith is the same thing as -- as, um, allowing someone to abduct and rape and murder you.

Martin: Do you think -- Schenck: May I?

Rob Schenck?

Yes, you may.

Just pose a question to Reverend Blanchard in light of what Karen has said, of what, uh, Professor Prior has said.

Uh, I think you said you're a firearms instructor...

Yes.

...uh, professional instructor.

Isn't -- Isn't Karen in trouble for having that weapon and not being ready to kill?

Because when I went -- underwent firearms training, very professional trainer, who said, "I'm not even going to train you until you can tell me that you are ready to kill with that weapon because if you are not ready to kill, that weapon will likely be taken from you in a confrontation and used to kill you and probably to kill others."

Would you agree with that?

Is -- Is it a problem for someone to carry a loaded weapon and not be willing to kill another human being with it?

I think what she gave you was her honesty.

Um, in the real-life situation, nobody can tell you, until they are there, what they would actually do.

Um, I think one of the things that we get hung up on is that we should not murder.

Period.

That's -- That's from the gospel.

I believe that even lambs have teeth.

Everybody, everything from an amoeba has the ability to protect themselves at some level.

We need the same thing.

That's all.

Martin: We actually have done a poll.

Um, we wanted to get a sense of how people view guns, and the question was, "Do guns generally harm or protect people," and there were some really striking differences that I want to bring up.

And our polling tells us that more than half of Evangelicals we polled believe that guns protect people rather than harm people, but there is a significant difference in viewpoint when you ask the same question of Christians who are black and Latino.

And this is where I'm going to play another clip of tape.

Cynthia Hurd, Susie Jackson, Ethel Lance... ...Depayne Middleton Doctor, Tywanza Sanders, Daniel L. Simmons... ...Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, Myra Thompson.

Narrator: The sad mathematics of life and death in this country are that the rate of death by gun violence is two times higher for black Americans than for white Americans, higher also for Hispanic Americans, especially teenagers, than for white Americans.

[ Horn honks ] So perhaps it's not surprising that our PBS Armed in America poll found that while more than half of white Christians, 63%, believe guns protect people, black Christians are not in agreement with them.

In fact, roughly the same percentage of black Christians, 61%, say the opposite, that guns tend to harm people.

70% of Hispanics say the same.

We'd like those of you watching or listening to join the conversation online.

The hashtag is #ArmorOfLightPBS.

Troy, I'm going to ask you very briefly -- why do you think that your brothers and sisters in Christ see the same issue so differently than you?

Obviously, they all don't, because we have a diversity of views on this panel, but why do you think that people who have some of the same understandings, theological understandings that you do about so many things don't agree with you on this?

Have you -- Have you ever thought about that?

It's simple.

It's simple.

The white, middle-class Evangelicals use guns for protection, and unfortunately, the people on the lower socio-economic rung of the ladder are victims of gun violence.

What do you think about that, Shane?

I-I mean, I can't even process that.

Can we go for a commercial break or something?

Like, that blows my mind.

I mean, it feels racist to me, like, because I-I-I gr-- I mean, I-I live in a neighborhood where we see, uh, a lot of violence.

I mean, it's -- it's in our culture, it's in everywhere, but, like, I go to Kansas and Ohio, like all over our country, we see people dying from the guns, and to me, it's, uh -- I mean, I-I can't even really process what Troy just said, and -- Wait, are you calling me a racist?

What -- What you said feels racist to me.

It feels racist.

It's the truth.

Look, where is the gun violence happening?

It's happening in inner cities.

We see them every day.

My office is located in the inner city.

My building -- My building has -- The people who have done mass shootings in this country... My building has bullet holes.

...are often white men.

White men are some of the most dangerous mass shooters in this country.

[ Applause ] We minister to the people in the inner city every day.

I'm working with these kids, and I see the violence.

My office gets shot up in the -- in the exchange of gunfire.

We live in different worlds.

We live in different worlds.

When I was in -- When we were in Philly, we took some of the victims of gun violence, and it was actually on Good Friday.

We had a Good Friday service out in the streets, and we told the story of Jesus, you know, as he died on the cross and, uh, the women weeping at the foot of the cross.

And, um... then this mother came forward, tears rolling down her face, and she says, "I understand something today that I never understood before.

God understands my pain.

God knows what it feels like to lose his own son," and I realized that she was the mother of a 19-year-old that had died on our block.

And I think something happens when we aren't in touch with each other's pain and when that -- like, when this just becomes a debate and figures and statistics and we don't feel the tears, the agonizing pain of Lucy and other people.

Like, these are names and faces.

238 people died from gun violence in Philadelphia last year.

Like, that's 238 names and faces, and we've got to know those fa-- those names.

It's got to break our heart.

What about what Troy said, which is that he thinks that white middle-class people use guns for self-protection, and what's your -- what's the other end of that equation for you, since you don't like how Shane characterized it?

What's the other end of that equation?

Where -- You're saying black people don't use guns for protection?

Look at the statistics.

Where are people dying?

They are dying in gang-related violence.

Look at Chicago.

Every single weekend, dozens of people are being murdered.

In my own community, a-a small town in Kansas, there are people dying in the inner city every single week, and you say that we don't know their names.

Pardon me, I am in that community every single week.

Just last weekend, we were reaching out to the homeless, an inner-city community, with a big feed and the gospel message.

That's exactly what we did.

What about -- What about suicide?

Do you count suicide as gun violence?

Of course.

Because don't a lot of white people kill themselves with guns?

Claiborne: And it's harder to kill yourself with a baseball bat.

Isn't the suicide rate, in fact, higher than it is the homicide rate?

I'm sorry, that's a little bit of a bait and switch.

Okay, go ahead.

You were talking about why people -- But gun violence -- You're talking about your poll.

Your poll said this.

But -- But I'm asking you, isn't that a part of gun violence?

If someone shoots themselves with a gun, it's gun violence.

I mean, d-do we have to say the -- the obvious?

And don't -- don't a lot of white people kill themselves with guns, too?

Is that not part of the conversation, as well?

I -- I'm just -- Why -- Why is it a black or white issue?

I-I-I don't know if -- if this a race question, what is being framed up now, but another question we ought to put on the table is easy access to firearms for people who frankly should not have them.

And I would say that goes for somebody in Kansas who is scared to death that -- that somebody is going to carjack them tomorrow, that an ISIS terrorist is going to show up in their community and they are charged with fear and highly attenuated.

You know, I happen to have the blessing of being married to a psychotherapist.

She'll tell you what people are capable of doing when they are highly attenuated and when they are driven by fear.

And we have a terrible fear problem in our own Christian community, and yet, Jesus says to us over and over again, "Fear not.

Do not be afraid."

And yet, so often the reason that we are buying and packing and stockpiling ammunition is out of fear.

Okay.

Dianna, did you want to jump in here?

I think you do.

Hobbs: Yeah, I've just been itching, because I do believe there is some legitimacy to that issue.

My husband and I do a whole lot of work in the inner city.

There is a lot of violence, and economically, African American communities, there's -- there are not enough resources, not enough jobs.

And even our legacy of slavery and our history, it plays into some of the mind-sets and mentalities that we work hard to reverse with revital-- revitalizing communities and talking to local law enforcement and the FBI and pastors and community leaders and the children gang members, sitting them down together so that we can have a discourse.

Here's what I want to say -- I was sexually molested when I was 6 years old by a neighbor.

Knew my neighbor.

I did a national campaign for women who are sexually assaulted, and most of those atrocities are perpetrated by folks we know well.

It doesn't happen by some bogeyman stranger out there, and so sometimes, we tend to fear what we don't understand.

And that's why dialogues like this are so important.

We've got to be in community with one another, and so I believe that if we never come together and talk and gain an understanding, then we cannot foster relationships and no real change can happen.

We've got to know each other.

We can't really love each other fully if we don't understand one another, so I think this is important.

There is a problem with crime and violence in the inner city, but it's not unique to black folks.

It's all folks.

We need to talk and we need to work some things out.

I wanted to say that I -- this question of where people get the guns is -- is a really important one.

I mean, I think we can all agree that, like, you can't legislate love.

Some of the laws that we thought would be really sensible and cut down the gun violence in our neighborhood would be things like one-handgun-a-month law.

Let's say, we are not taking away the Second Amendment, but if you're buying more than one handgun a month per person, that you may not be making the world a safer place.

But those laws have been stopped over and over, you know, th-that saying that's a regulation on guns, you know, and -- and I think, like, we -- we need some common-sense laws that say if you can't fly on an airplane because you're, you know, on the watch list, you shouldn't be able to buy a gun.

I think of Liberty University, Karen's school, and they just are now going to allow students to take guns into the dorms, you know?

You think, like, gosh, these are, like, kids that can't even buy alcohol -- not that they would at Liberty University anyway.

[ Laughter ] But they can't buy alcohol, but they're -- they're going to have guns.

Like, that's not a good idea!

We've got to say this isn't a good idea.

It's not about -- like, actually, 3/4 of the NRA believes that public safety and common-sense gun laws are not in conflict with each other, that we can do better than what we have right now.

I-I had a quick question for Abby, if you don't mind.

Abby -- Abigail Disney is the filmmaker.

I -- You're not, as I understand it, a member of the Evangelical community.

No, I'm not.

And I was just wondering what -- I was going to say "possessed," but I won't.

[ Laughs ] What -- What moved you to investigate this particular area?

What -- What gave you -- W-Why did you spend -- What was it, three years?

Yeah.

Working on this particular project, and I'm just really more interested in what caused you to... want to have this conversation.

Well, because I knew it would be a really rich conversation.

I-I was raised in a very faithful house.

When you grow up in a strong Christian tradition, you don't -- you don't leave the Sermon on the Mount behind.

It comes with you everywhere you go, and it certainly has for me.

And, you know, I could see that there was this group of people who described themselves as Christians who overwhelmingly support it.

And I just thought to myself, you know, there's a very big problem here, because no matter how much you have a right to defend yourself, I didn't see the dread.

I didn't see the absolute morbid fear of having to take a life.

So -- So I-I found Rob Schenck, and it began a whole conversation.

We really -- I really appreciate what Abby said.

That was -- She was reading my mind, I think, because it is about a culture -- um, a gun culture, which is not the same thing as -- as just guns.

Um, th-the notion of fear has been brought up a-a lot, and certainly, that is a factor, but what I see at play in gun violence and gun culture is not fear but machi-machismo, um, swagger, and power.

Uh, when Aaron Burr fatally shot, uh, Alexander Hamilton at the turn of the 19th century in America, uh, in a duel, that wasn't about fear.

That was about power and swagger and politics, um, and that's the kind of culture that we've inherited in -- in these gun questions.

And if the -- the church has any role in helping to solve it, it's not just -- it's in exploding these categories and finding new ways to -- to address the issues, not according to the old categories or the old political parties.

I'm going to ask Reverend...Thompson.

You had a thought that you wanted to share.

Thompson: I've heard some of you say that politics won't cure this, and that's true.

But we're the ones who vote for people to get into office and they're the lawmakers, they're the ones who can change these laws and to make it where guns are not accessible to people who should not have them, and of course with prayer, fasting, the churches coming together.

You know, we can start right there in each one of our communities.

Okay.

Sir?

Charley Williams.

I'm here with a group for the League of Women Voters of Orange County, and I love the word "stewardship," but we have a need for leadership.

I think when we all came into the hall today and we saw the words together, "faith" and "guns," we did a little -- we did a little choke.

I don't usually think of those two words together.

We need a higher way.

Thank you.

There was somebody -- You wanted to -- May I get you to step out here?

Very briefly.

May I know you?

Imam Muhammad Musri.

This issue is a crisis.

It's an epidemic that needs to be addressed, and the faith leaders are always the conscience of the nation, uh, the visionaries that look ahead and address the problem.

This is a problem that will not be addressed through laws.

We have seen politicians unable to come to terms with it.

It's not going to be addressed by just, uh, taking back the guns.

This discussion that needs to be, as Rob said, taken across the nation to every church, synagogue, mosque, temple.

God teaches us love.

He does not teach us to hate one another or to kill each other, and if we -- if the faith leaders don't take the lead on this and instead, you know, are swept in -- in fear with the rest of the country, um, then we are all in trouble.

Martin: I-I think you've given us a really good place to bring our conversation to a close, so I want to ask each of you, what are you as people of faith willing to do?

What are you willing to do?

Who wants to start?

Do you want to start?

Well, uh, one thing I've been willing to do is give the next 25 years of my life and ministry, God willing, uh, to inviting people of faith into a conversation like the one we just had, only much longer.

Shane, what are you prepared to do?

I'm prepare to continue to, uh, participate in a movement that has this consistent ethic of life that shapes how we think about abortion, the death penalty, uh, Black Lives Matter, and certainly gun violence.

And there's a great image -- I brought a prop, Michel.

Martin: Oh, let's see it.

Uh, there's a great image in scripture that the prophets Micah and Isaiah in the Hebrew scripture, they talk about God's people beating swords into plows and spears into pruning hooks, turning things that had brought death into things that can bring life, and I think that's an amazing image.

It ends up by saying people will not rise up against each other.

They will study war no more and people will live without fear.

And what is -- And so this -- we took that literally and we took an AK-47.

We, uh, got our blacksmiths, and we melted it down and, uh, beat it into this.

So, this is an AK-47 that is now a plow that we use in our garden.

[ Applause ] Now, look at that.

That's the story of scripture, is turning death into life, and so that's what we need to do is turn this country that has a contagion of violence into a country that stands consistently for life again.

Thank you.

I won't mind if you put that away.

It's -- It's a little scary-looking, too.

Dianna, what are you prepared to do?

What should people of faith be prepared to do?

Hobbs: Continue -- Continue to be counter-cultural.

When did the body of Christ stop fighting for the principles in scripture?

We have to go back to the Bible, and even though things are lawful, they are not necessarily expedient for us.

And so let's get our mind in the word.

Stop living in fear and recognize that we are called to serve one another and to preach and live the gospel.

Dianna, thank you.

[ Applause ] Newman: I have to say yes and amen to that.

Preach it!

I will continue to do what I have done for the past 25 years, and that is advocate for the least of these among us.

We talk about violence.

The most violent place or the most dangerous place to be in America today is in the womb.

Over one million babies die through abortion, and I will continue to advocate for their lives.

You talk about beating your -- your, uh -- your swords into plow shares.

What we do is we close abortion clinics through peaceful, nonviolent means, so that's what I'll continue to do.

I will continue to preach non-violence everywhere it reads -- uh, rears its ugly head, and I will just close by saying this -- I so appreciate this forum.

I appreciate all of you.

I appreciate the discourse.

Reverend Blanchard?

Blanchard: I'm so glad to be here.

And I'm glad y'all let me in the room... [ Laughter ] ...because you can't change anything when there's two different worlds, and we are getting there.

It's -- It's going to happen in our lifetime.

I cry every time a mother steps up and says, "I lost my son."

I do.

I do.

Raised by a grandmother who had a loaded shotgun in the corner -- that was just the way from where I grew up.

Right now, I'm -- I'm in a good spot to help the whole dialogue, and I hope we keep on talking.

And just in case nobody told you today, I love you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[ Laughter ] Martin: Dr. Karen Swallow Prior, Professor.

Um, I would like to continue, um, this sort of thing, trying to build bridges across divides.

Um, I think there's a lot of common ground that people on various sides can -- can find, even in terms of common-sense legislation, new legislation, increasing the age of -- that is required, the minimum age for owning a handgun or pistol.

I think that's a common-sense measure.

Increasing support for mental illness, um, for those who are at risk of -- of causing violence, even though that's not always or even often the source.

Um, and, of course, doing what I do, which -- which is educating, which is -- is a much greater form of power.

Education is a much greater form of power than guns.

Martin: Reverend Hunter, I think it's fitting that we give you the last word.

Hunter: Well, I'm a pastor, and so I'm willing to teach my congregation.

You know, the rabbi and the imam -- um, local, um, church leaders are the most trusted, uh, leaders in our nation, and this is a cultural problem.

It's not just a personal problem.

It's not just an individual problem.

There's not just bad guys and good guys.

There's a whole cultural, uh, force.

It is legitimate in a few cases that people will need to defend themselves physically.

That's a very, very few cases.

And I want to teach my people that there's something so much higher than self-protection.

There's -- There's room for reasonable steps toward reasonable safety.

Pastor, thank you.

Um, the very fact that people with such diverse views have had this civil conversation is a beginning, a giant step forward, we would humbly say.

Uh, we would like to thank all of you for being part of it.

We would like to certainly thank you for leading it, and with that, we are just going to say good night and we hope the conversation continues.

[ Applause ] [ Chatter ] This program is made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.