Amanpour and Company

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE FORMER EVANGELICAL PASTOR JOEL HUNTER. HE SERVED AS IT'S PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SPIRITUAL ADVISER FOR EIGHT YEARS BUT THEN HE VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 2016. THIS TIME AROUND HE'S BACKING JOE BIDEN. REMEMBER OF COURSE, CHRISTIANS FORM TRUMP'S BASE BUT HUNTER HAS FOORMD GROUP CALLED PRO-LIFE EVANGELICALS FOR BIDEN. HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO OUR MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT WHAT HAS CHANGED. >> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US. >> I'M HONORED. >> YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 2016 BUT YOU'RE PART OF A GROUP CALLED PRO-LIFE EVANGELICALS FOR BIDEN. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO JOIN THIS GROUP AND HELP ORGANIZE THIS GROUP? >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PRO-LIFE AGENDA IS EXPANDED BEYOND BIRTH. WE'RE NO LESS ANTI-ABORTION. BUT IF WE KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DIE FROM THE PANDEMIC, THE PEOPLE HAD DIE FROM A LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE, PEOPLE WHO DIE FROM POVERTY AND THE OPIOID CRISIS AND SUICIDE AND RACISM AND THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON, AND ON AND ON, ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT TO GOD AS THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL IN THE WOMB. AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE WANT TO MAKE SURE OF IS THAT WE ARE PRO-LIFE COMPREHENSIVELY. WE BELIEVE IF YOU PAY ATTENTION TO THESE OTHER AREAS, IT WILL REDUCE THE CHOICE FOR ABORTION SO IT WILL REDUCE THE NUMBER OF ABORTIONS. >> IT IS ONE THING TO SAY YOU'LL VOTE FOR SOMEONE IN THE PRIVACY OF A VOTING BOOTH. IT IS ANOTHER TO PUT A GROUP TOGETHER TO PUBLICLY ENDORSE A CANDIDATE. YOU ARE GIVING YOUR STATURE TO THIS ENTERPRISE. WHY IS THAT? THIS IS FIRST TIME YOU'VE DONE THIS. WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT TO DO? >> I AM NOW AN OUTCAST TO MANY PEOPLE WHO I WAS CLOSE TO, AND I HAD TO PAY A VERY HIGH PRICE TO DO THIS. I KNEW WHAT WAS COMING. WHEN THE ARTICLE IN THE "WASHINGTON POST" CAME OUT ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT AND THEN THE VERY NEXT DAY, A LARGE ARTICLE WITH MY PICTURE CAME OUT IN THE ORLANDO SENTINEL IMMEDIATELY, INVITATIONS WERE WITHDRAWN. I WAS TAKEN OFF THE AIR. MY DAILY DEVOTIONS ON THE CHRISTIAN RADIO STATION. IT WAS TAKEN OFF THE AIR. NOW, THE CURIOUS THING ABOUT THIS IS, THESE ARE MY FRIENDS BUT THEY WERE SO AFRAID OF LOSE GO INCOME, AND SO AFRAID OF LOSING THEIR CONSTITUENCY THAT THEY HAD TO DO THAT. SO I TOTALLY GET THAT. BUT THERE CAME A TIME IN MY LIFE WHERE I PROJECTED FOUR MORE YEARS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE KIND OF DIVISION AND THE KIND OF HOSTILITY, AND THE KIND OF, THE TONE OF PERSONAL ATTACK, AND WHAT THAT WOULD DO TO OUR CAPABILITY OF MAKING POLICY THAT'S WOULD ACTUALLY SOLVE THE LARGER PROBLEMS. I KNOW JOE BIDEN. I'VE WORKED WITH HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES IN THE WHITE HOUSE. HE'S A GOOD MAN AND HE'S WIRED TO PUT TOGETHER THOSE COALITIONS. OBAMA WAS A MASTER AT THIS. HE WANTED PEOPLE IN THE ROOM WHO THOUGHT DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES. HE HAD THE INTELLECTUAL CAPABILITY OF SURVEYING THE ROOM. TAKING ALL THAT INFORMATION. AND THEN MAKING THE DECISION. SO ANYHOW, WASN'T JUST, I CAN'T DO ANY MORE TRUMP. IT IS, I DO THINK THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS THE POTENTIAL TO PUT TOGETHER COALITIONS FROM TRADITIONALLY OPPOSING PEOPLE OR PARTIES OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY TO GET DONE WHAT YOU CAN'T GET DONE WITH AN UP OR DOWN VOTE. >> WAS THERE A TIPPING POINT FOR WITH YOU PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT RESOLVED IT FOR YOU THAT, AT THE VERY LEAST, YOU COULDN'T SUPPORT HIM AGAIN? >> YEAH. THIS STARTED VERY EARLY WHEN HE STARTED CATEGORIZING IMMIGRANTS AS RAPE. IS AND MURDERERS AND -- >> THAT WAS THE FIRST DAY, SIR, THAT WAS THE FIRST DAY. THE VERY FIRST DAY HE ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY. BUT YOU VOTED FOR HIM ANYWAY. >> I VOTED FOR HIM THINKING THAT THIS IS HOW HE'S RUNNING. HE IS APPEALING TO THIS CERTAIN BASE. HE'S APPEALING TO PEOPLE. I KNEW WHAT THAT WAS. THEN I REALIZED THERE WAS A TONE BEING SET DOWN FROM THE LEADER OF OUR COUNTRY INTO ALL OF OUR COUNTRY, THAT THIS IS HOW WE'LL LIVE. FOR PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH US, WE ARE GOING TO COUNT THEM AS ENEMIES. OUR RHETORIC IS BECOMING, GOING TO BECOME WEAPONIZED. THERE ARE WINNERS AND LOSERS AND WE'LL BECOME THE WINNERS. AND OPPOSITE OF THE GOSPEL, IT IS ME FIRST. OUR COUNTRY FIRST. AMERICA FIRST. NOBODY ELSE COUNTS AS MUCH AS WE DO. AND THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF THE MESSAGE OF JESUS WHICH SAYS LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF. THEY'RE AS IMPORTANT AS YOU ARE. AND SO YOU SPEND YOUR LIFE CONSIDERING NOT ONLY WHAT IS GOOD FOR YOU BUT WHAT IS GOOD FOR THEM. SO THAT WAS KIND OF MY PROGRESSION. >> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID, HE WOULD DELIVER CONSERVATIVE JUDGES. WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE REPUBLICAN SENATE, HE HAS DONE SO. HE HAS DELIVERED ON EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE NOMINEES CERTAINLY TO THE SUPREME COURT AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW THE THIRD NOMINEE IS BEING STILL CONSIDERED. HE'S DELIVERED WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. SHOULDSOME WOULD SAY AS THEY DID WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON. IF YOU DON'T LIKE HIM A IT'S A HUMAN BEING, DON'T HANG OUT WITH HIM. IF THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU WANT, THAT'S WHAT YOU GET. WHY ISN'T THAT ENOUGH? >> WELL, THAT IS THE POINT. I THINK HE HAS DELIVERED. I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH HIS NOMINEE FOR SUPREME COURT. I THINK SHE'S A GREAT HUMAN BEING. HE'S DELIVERED ONLY AND SOME OF THE POLICIES. I'M NOT AGAINST SOME OF HIS POLICIES. BUT THERE REACHES A POINT OF DIMINISHING RETURNS WHEN YOU SAY WHO HE IS AS PERSON, HOW HE APPROACHES THE POLITICAL SPHERE IN WAYS THAT ARE DIVISIVE AND ACCUSER TO AND WILL CONTINUE TO DIVIDE OUR COUNTRY. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS AS LINCOLN QUOTED, A HOUSE DIVIDED CANNOT STAND. >> I WAS SURPRISE THAT HAD SO MANY PROMINENT EVANGELICAL LEADERS FELL SO HARD FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP. HE JUST SEEMS TO BE ANTITHETICAL TO THE VALUES THAT THESE LEADERS SAY THEY HOLD. WHY IS THAT? >> THERE ARE PEOPLE WILLING TO OVERLOOK PERSONAL BEHAVIOR, PERSONAL RHETORIC THAT DOESN'T MATCH THE GOSPEL. IT DOESN'T TAUGHT WHAT JESUS TAUGHT US. FOR THE SAKE OF POLICY SUPPORT. AND SO THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF THEM WERE DOING. HE PROMISED PRO-LIFE LEGISLATION. HE PROMISED A LOT OF CERTAIN. HE PROMISED TO PAY ATTENTION TO RELIGIOUS ISSUES AND RELIGIOUS PROTECTION. AND 2016, THERE WAS SOME FEAR THAT THE RADICAL LEFT WOULD EXPUNGE THE PUBLIC SQUARE OF RELIGION, SO OVER AND SO FORTH. IT IS LIKE THE MAFIA DEAL WHERE YOU THAT A I FOR PROTECTION. AND THAT'S WHAT THEY SAW IN PRESIDENT TRUMP. TO BE HONEST, THAT'S WHAT HE'S DELIVERED. HE'S DELIVERED JUSTICES, CERTAIN LEGISLATION TOWARD PROTECTING RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, SO ON AND SO FORTH. SO THEY GOT WHAT THEY VOTED FOR. IN MY VIEW THEY GOT MORE THAN THEY VOTED FOR. I VOTED FOR HIM. I CAN'T THINK THE SENATOR CLINTON, SECRETARY CLINTON, WAS REALLY GOING TO INCLUDE FAITH ISSUES IN HER ADMINISTRATION. AND HE HAD PROMISED, AND OF COURSE, I DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS. I SAID, WELL, WE'LL TAKE A CHANCE. I THINK THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO VOTED FOR HIM THE FIRST TIME, WHO WILL NOT VOTE FOR THEM SECOND TIME, ALTHOUGH HE STILL HAS A VAST MAJORITY OF EVANGELICALS. >> YOU'RE NOT ALONE. THERE ARE OTHERS IN YOUR GROUP INCLUDING THE GRAND DAUGHTER OF BILLY GRAHAM AS PART OF A GROUP WHO SAID SIMILAR THINGS. SHE SAID BEING PRO-LIFE IS MORE THAN JUST ABORTION. IT IS ABOUT A RESPECT FOR LIFE IN ALL, THROUGHOUT LIFE. WE'VE HAD 5,000 PEOPLE SIGN ON TO THAT STATEMENT. THE PEOPLE WHO ORGANIZED IT, WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS FOR QUITE A WHILE. WE'VE HAD POSITIONS OF NATIONAL LEADERSHIP. WE WANT TO EMPHASIZE THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. WE DON'T WANT TO JUST PICK UP ONE ISSUE AND I REALLY HAVE THE SCRIPTURE, MAKE THAT THE LITMUS TEST FOR EVERYTHING WE DO. THE BIBLE SAYS A LOT ABOUT POVERTY, ABOUT HELPING THE AILING, ABOUT JUSTICE ISSUES AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. AND WE WANT A COMPREHENSIVE BIBLICAL APPROACH. >> SOME OF THE REACTION THAT YOU'VE GOTTEN FROM PEOPLE WHO YOU CONSIDER TO BE YOUR FRIENDS, HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? IT JUST SEEMS LIKE YOU DIDN'T REANNOUNCE YOUR FAITH. I MEAN, YOU DIDN'T PICK YOUR HEAD UP AND SAY, ALL THE THINGS, I'VE REACHED ALL THESE 30 YEARS, I CHANGED MY MIND. YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT. YOU SAID I DON'T SUPPORT THIS PARTICULAR CANDIDATE. WHAT DOES THAT SAY? AND I SUPPORT SOMEONE ELSE. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS? >> I TOTALLY SYMPATHIZE WITH THESE PEOPLE. I WAS A PASTOR OF A CONGREGATION FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS. SO I KNOW WHAT IT IS TO BE PROTECTED. I TALKED WITH A YOUNG PASTOR THAT HAS HUGE CONGREGATION IN OUR AREA. AND HE WAS ONE THE OF ONES THAT SAID, HEY, LET'S DO YOUR PREACHING GIG AT OUR CHURCH UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTIONS. AND I'LL HAVE YOU ON IN 2021. HE SAID, HE SAID, I'VE PREACHED TWO WEEKS BLACK LIVES MATTER. AND I LOST 20% OF OUR CONTRIBUTIONS AND FINAL% OF MY CONGREGATION. AND SO THESE ARE FOLKS THAT ARE TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR INSTITUTIONS, THEIR -- ASSEMBLED CONGREGATION. SO I TOTALLY GET THAT. I SYMPATHIZE WITH THEM. AND THEY'RE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN. BUT THEY'RE ALSO VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THEIR POSITION. THEY KNOW THEY SHOULD BE SPEAKING OUT ON JUSTICE ISSUES. THEY KNOW WHEN IT COMES NEUTERS OF WHITE SUPREMACY, WITH ROBERT JONES' BOOK, THE LEGACY OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY. THEY KNOW THESE ARE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT TO PORTRAY THE GOSPEL AS IT REALLY IS. BUT THEY'RE AFRAID, ESPECIALLY OF THOSE VOICES. I GET MAIL EVERY DAY. MUCH OF IT UNSIGNED. I'LL NEVER READ ANONYMOUS VOICES BUST THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE ATTACKERS. AND THERE ARE SO MANY MORE ATTACKERS THESE DAYS. >> DOESN'T THAT SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A SORT OF A CORE OF EITHER RACISM OR INTOLERANCE IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT IS NOT BEING ADDRESSED? THAT IS IN FACT BEING ENABLED? WHAT DOES THAT SAY? >> ABSOLUTELY IT DOES. AND FULL DISCLOSURE, RIGHT BEFORE I TRANSITIONED OUT OF THE, MY PASTOR, I HAD FORUMS ON RAX, ON THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. I HAD 800 LGBTQ FOLKS COME IN AND TALK ABOUT HOW THEY'VE BEEN HURT FROM THE CHURCH. AND THE LEADERSHIP CAME TO ME AND SAID, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT TRANSITIONING TO THE NEXT -- SO THAT'S WHAT THERE IS. TO SELL YOUR SOUL FOR A LITTLE TEMPORARY POWER. BUT IT'S VERY EASY AND I CAN TELL YOU AS A PASTOR, IT IS VERY DWROIS JUSTIFY, I DON'T WANT TO DIVIDE THE CONGREGATION. AND WHAT WITH THE STAFF? DO I PUT THEIR JOBS IN DANGER? SO IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. I DON'T WANT TO UNDERSELL THE DIFFICULTY IN BEING PROPHETIC, PROPERLY PROPHETIC IN THE CHURCH. BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU, MICHELLE, IF THE CHURCH DOESN'T LEAD IN THE MORAL PATH FORWARD AS FAR AS JUSTICE, AS FAR AS EQUALITY, BEING COMPREHENSIVELY PRO-LIFE. THEN IT WON'T GET DONE. THE PEOPLE SEE US AS THE CONSCIENCE. IF THE CONSCIENCE DOESN'T SPEAK UP, WE'LL JUST DO WHATEVER IS CONVENIENT AND WHATEVER IS GOOD FOR OUR GROUP. >> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I WAS WONDERING IN A WAY IF THERE IS A PART OF THAT YOU FEELS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IT IS ALIENATING TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE ATTRACTED, WHO LOOK TEMPERATURE AND SAY THESE PEOPLE HAVE NOTHING FOR ME. AND THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER AS LONG AS THEY BENEFIT. IS THERE ANY WAY THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE SO? >> ABSOLUTELY. SPECIALLY FOR THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS THAT HAVE NO AUTOMATIC LOYALTY TO INSTITUTIONAL RELIGION. THEY LOOK AT THAT AND THEY SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. THIS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM HOW I THOUGHT JESUS WAS. THIS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HEAR. THE LOVE. GOD IS LOVE. THERE IS NO CONDEMN NATION IN CHRIST. THIS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HEAR. I KNOW THE DRAW OF POWER. AND THE DRAW OF WITHHOLDING YOUR VOICE SO YOU CAN BE NEAR POWER. PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SPIRITUAL ADVISER FOR EIGHT YEARS, ONE OF THEM WROTE DEVOTIONS EVERY WEEK AND I KNOW THAT TEMPTATIONS I HAD OF NOT SPEAKING FORWARD IN AREAS WHERE I DISAGREED WITH HIM. HE COULD TELL YOU THAT I DID DO THAT THOUGH. I KNOW HOW EASY IT IS NOT TO SAY, WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY IN ORDER TO HAVE A PHOTO OP IN THE OVAL OFFICE. IT IS JUST VERY, VERY TEMPTING. >> HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW THAT YOU'VE PUT YOURSELF OUT THERE? HOW DO YOU FEEL? >> I FEEL GREAT. I DID THE RIGHT THING. AND SO I SLEEP VERY WELL AT NIGHT. I BELIEVE THAT IT WILL GIVE SOME OTHER PEOPLE PERMISSION TO SAY, I NEED TO THINK BROADER THAN JUST BEING ANTI-ABORTION. I CAN BE ANTI-ABORTION. I CAN TRY TO PROTECT CHILDREN IN THE WOMB. BUT MAYBE I CAN HELP AN EXPECTANT MOTHER CHOOSE NOT TO GET AN ABORTION BECAUSE SHE'S HAD THE SUPPORT AND THE RESOURCES TO CARRY HER BABY TO TERM. MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO ACTION PLEASURE OUR GOALS. SO I CAN LIVE WITH MYSELF. AND I THINK I'M DOING THE RIGHT THING. >>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.