Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW THE FLOW OF MISINFORMATION ALSO HEIGHTENED TENSIONS IN PLACES LIKE THE WEST BANK AND UKRAINE AND IN THE UNITED STATES. HOMELAND SECURITY'S NEWLY LAUNCHED DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD HAS LASTED ONLY A FEW WEEKS IN THE FACE OF INTENSE CRITICISM. ITS LEADER HAS RESIGNED. SHE'S RENOWNED EXPERT ON COUNTERING DISINFORMATION AND HAS BEEN SPEAKING TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE UNDER ATTACK ONLINE. >> HEY. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. >> WHAT WAS THE BEHIND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S DISINFORMATION PROJECT? WHAT WAS THE GOAL. >> SURE. SO I WAS CONTACTED TO MEET THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD, WHICH IS A SCARY SOUNDING NAME. THE INTENTION BEHIND THE PRODUCT WAS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO COORDINATE THIS MASSIVE DEPARTMENT, WHICH HAS MANY, MANY DIFFERENT EQUITIES AND DISASTER MANAGEMENT, BORDER PATROL, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE ELECTION SECURITY AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE. TO TAKE THE VARIOUS BITS OF COUNTER DISINFORMATION WORK THAT THE DEPARTMENT WAS DOING AND REALLY JOIN THEM UP. TO HARMONIZE THEM. >> WHAT DID THEY DO? HOW DID THEY DO IT? THEN ASK YOU WHY YOU THINK THEY DID THIS. >> SURE. >> IT'S IMPORTANT TO START WITH SOME BLAME ON THE PROJECT. WHEN IT WAS ANNOUNCED A MONTH AGO, THE DEPARTMENT LEFT OUT KEY EXAMPLES. THE FACT THE BOARD WAS FED UP TO PROTECT CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES. IT WOUND GOING TO BE MONITORING AMERICANS. IT WAS AN INTERNAL GOVERNANCE GROUP. BECAUSE OF THAT INFORMATIONAL VACUUM, CONSERVATIVES JUMPED AT THE CHANCE TO FILL IN THE BLANKS. THEY SAID THE BOARD WOULD BE POLICING THE INTERNET. THEY SAID THAT I WAS A, YOU KNOW, FULL OF INFORMATION AND ATTACKED MY SCHOLARSHIP AND MY RECORD. I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT BECAUSE IT SHOWS HOW DISINFORMATION WORKS. WHEN WE LACK INFORMATION, THERE ARE THESE INFORMATIONAL VACUUMS THAT GET FILLED. IF WE DON'T RESPOND QUICKLY ENOUGH, THAT'S THE NARRATIVE THAT STICKS. TALK ABOUT THE DIMENSIONS OF WHAT IT WAS. SMEARS AGAINST YOU. >> YEAH. WHAT THE BOARD WAS DOING, THAT INFORMATIONAL VACUUM LEAD TO A LOT OF ATTACKS ON ME AND MY FAMILY. IT WAS NOT JUST ABOUT MY RECORD. IT WAS MY TWEETS AND PREVIOUS STATEMENTS BEING CHERRY PICKED AND TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND, YOU KNOW, STRIPPED OF ALL NEW ORLEANS. IT WAS GENDERED AND SEXUALIZED ATTACKS AGAINST ME. IT WAS, YOU KNOW, DEATH THREATS ALMOST EVERY DAY FOR OVER THREE WEEKS AGAINST ME AND MY FAMILY. IT WAS DOXXING OF ME AND MY FAMILY AND OUR PERSONAL INFORMATION. AND I THINK IT'S OKAY FOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO BE CRITICIZED. WE SHOULD HELD TO ACCOUNT AND CRITICIZED. THE ATTACKS OF THE PERSONAL NATURE WERE MEANT TO SILENCE ME. THEY WERE MEANT TO PUSH ME OUT OF THE JOB. TO MAKE ME TOXIC TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION. TO SILENCE ME. THEY CONTINUED EVEN AFTER I RESIGNED FROM THE JOB WHICH WAS ABOUT THE LACK OF CLARITY OF THE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION. I RECEIVED ATTACKS FROM SITTING U.S. REPRESENTATIVES WHO WANTED TO MAKE ME THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THEIR PREELECTION PUSH HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AHEAD OF THE MIDTERMS. I'M JUST A PERSON. I'M 39 WEEKS PREGNANT NOW. NOT THAT IT SAVES ME FROM CRITICISM, BUT I WOULD WISH WE HAD A LITTLE BIT MORE HUMANITY IN OUR POLITICS RIGHT NOW. AND THAT THESE ATTACKS WOULD STOP. THE CLEAR INDICATION IS THAT THE FOLKS WHO ARE IN POWER ARE EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE NOT SAYING IT OVERTLY, ENDORSING THESE TYPES ATTACKS MY FAMILY HAVE RECEIVED. THEY KNOW THIS IS HOW THEIR SUPPORTERS ACT ONLINE. IT'S A SCARY INDICATION OF WHERE OUR POLITICS HAVE GOTTEN TO. SOMETHING DEBATED THAT AMERICANS HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT, AND I UNDERSTAND THE CONCERNS, IT'S BEEN PUSHED TO THE SIDE. OUR NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERNS HAVE BEEN PUSHED TO THE SIDE FOR THE CHILDISH ATTACK ON A SINGLE PERSON WHO, FRANKLY, DIDN'T HAVE THAT MUCH POWER WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT ANYWAY. >> IT'S DEPRESSING AND DISTURBING. TO PUT YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION OUT THERE. BASICALLY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO HARM YOU. THAT'S WHAT THAT IS. THAT'S WHAT THAT'S FOR. TO HAVE ELECTED OFFICIALS. WHY DO YOU THINK THE APPROACH WAS THE APPROACH THEY TOOK? WHY DO YOU THINK -- FRANKLY, IT HAS TO BE ASKED, WHY DO YOU THINK THE DEPARTMENT WAS CAUGHT FLAT FOOTED? >> WELL, ON THE CASE OF THE OFFICIALS, THIS IS JUST THE WAY OUR POLITICS HAS BECOME. IT'S BECOME EXTREMELY PERSONALIZED. AS YOU NOTED, MICHELLE. I THINK I'M A GREAT MAIN CHARACTER FOR THEM. I HAVE BEEN OPINIONATED. I'M A YOUNG WOMAN. I HAVE EXPRESSED MYSELF ONLINE AUTHENTICALLY, INCLUDING POSTING VIDEOS SINGING AND THINGS LIKE THAT. IT'S EASY FOR THEM TO ATTACK ME. AND IN THE ABSENCE OF INFORMATION THAT THE DEPARTMENT DID NOT PUT OUT ABOUT WHAT THE BOARD WAS GOING TO DO, IT WAS EASY TO WHIP UP THAT OUTRAGE AGAINST ME PERSONALLY. AGAIN, MAKE ME THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THAT CAMPAIGN. IT WAS JUST TOO EASY FOR THEM. WHERE THERE WAS A LACK OF INFORMATION ELSEWHERE. AND THE DEPARTMENT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY LARGE DEPARTMENT. 250,000 PEOPLE WORK AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY. IT HAS MANY DIFFERENT PRIORITIES AND EQUITIES. I THINK AS THE ROLLOUT WAS HAPPENING, THERE WERE OTHER PRIORITIES. THEN IN RESPONDING TO THE ATTACKS, IT'S KIND OF A DELICATE DANCE. DON'T WANT TO GIVE TOO MUCH CREDENCE TO THE THINGS PEOPLE ARE SAYING. BUT YOU NEED TO RESPOND RAPIDLY AND PROVIDE INFORMATION WHERE IT'S BEING REQUESTED. THE DEPARTMENT WASN'T ABLE TO DO THAT. I THINK WHAT WE SEE HERE IS A DESIRE ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT DESPITE DISINFORMATION BUT MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF HOW TO DO IT. YOU CANNOT JUST PUT OUT A FACT SHEET AND ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S, YOU KNOW, HUGE DISTRUST BETWEEN AMERICANS AND THE GOVERNMENTS NOW, HOPE AMERICANS BUY INTO EVERYTHING. YOU NEED TO TELL A BETTER STORY AND DO IT QUICKLY AND RAPIDLY AND OPENLY AND TRANSPARENTLY. YOU RADIOTHE TARGET OF ALL THE STRATEGIES YOU WROTE ABOUT. AND I HAVE TO ASK -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. DO YOU? >> NO. I HAD TRIED THROUGHOUT MY TIME AT THE DEPARTMENT, WHICH WAS ALMOST THREE MONTHS. U I HAD GIVEN THE DEPARTMENT GUIDANCE ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM AND UNFORTUNATELY IT WASN'T HEEDED. IT SPEAKS TO THE DISPROPORTIONATE NATURE OF THE ATTACKS AGAINST ME. SEEING ME AS A HUGE FIGURE HEAD IN THE DEPARTMENT. I WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO CONTINUE TO TAKE THE ATTACKS IF I FELT THE ADMINISTRATION WERE INVESTED IN THE FIGHT. I DON'T NECESSARILY FEEL THAT ANYMORE. >> TALK ABOUT THE CONNECTION TO NATIONAL SECURITY. WHY DO YOU SAY THAT ADDRESSING THIS TO DEVELOPING ALL THE RESPONSE IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY? >> I THINK YOU CAN LOOK AT THE THREE COUNTRIES I MENTIONED ALREADY. LOOK AT THEIR CAMPAIGNS AND SEE HOW THEY USE OUR POLITICAL POLARIZATION TO FURTHER THEIR OWN ENDS. WE SAW IN 2016 RUSSIA MANIPULATING IN OUR SOCIETY FROM RACISM TO ECONOMIC INEQUALITY TO GENDER INEQUALITY TO PUSH GOALS AND MAKE US MORE POLARIZED. WHEN WE'RE FIGHTING AMONG OURSELVES. WE'RE PAYING LESS ATTENTION TO WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING ABROAD. CHINA DECIDED NOT TO MEDDLE IN THE 2020 ELECTION BUT HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN INFLUENCING OUR POLITICAL DISCOURSE. PARTICULARLY AROUND COVID-19. THESE ARE ISSUES THAT AFFECT AMERICANS. EVERYBODY SHOULD CARE ABOUT IT. WE WANT AMERICANS DEALING IN OUR ELECTIONS. RIGHT. THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE. BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, OUR HEALTH AND OUR PUBLIC SAFETY. I THINK EVERY ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE WANTS THAT FOR THE COUNTRY. IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH POLICING AMERICAN'S SPEECH BUT MAKING THEM AWARE WE'RE BEING MANIPULATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SHARING DISINFORMATION FOR POWER AND FOR PROFIT. SISTER NOT SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS WANT TO BE SEEN BY THEIR BASE AS SUPPORTING AND ADDRESSING. THAT'S EXTREMELY UPSETTING. I THINK REPUBLICANS RECOGNIZE THAT IT REALLY FIRES UP THEIR BASE TO SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE TRAMPLING ON FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. THERE ARE WAYS TO ADDRESS DISINFORMATION WITHOUT TRAMPLING ON FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS >>WELL, WE SAW IT. WE'VE SEEN A RECENT REAL TIME EXAMPLE. UKRAINIANS SUCCESSFULLY GOT OUT IN FRONT OF DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS THAT WERE CLEARLY BEING PLANNED BY THE RUSSIANS TO JUSTIFY THEIR UNPROVOKED INVASION OF UKRAINE. AND AMERICANS, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE MILITARY WERE EFFECTIVE IN SUPPORTING THAT EFFORT BY STRATEGICALLY RELEASING INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION THAT SUPPORTED THE FACT BASIS OF WHAT THE UKRAINIANS WERE SAYING, RIGHT. WONDERING WHY IT IS THEY COULDN'T DO THIS WHEN IT CAME TO AMERICAN INTERESTS. I GUESS THAT QUESTION HAS OCCURRED TO YOU? >> ABSOLUTELY. I THINK UKRAINE HAS LEARNED A LOT. THEY HAVE PAID FOR IT WITH UKRAINIAN LIVES. THEY UNDERSTAND THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT DOES HAVE A MATERIAL AND HUMAN EFFECT ON PEOPLE. THEY RECOGNIZE THAT RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION HAS LEAD TO LIVES LOST IN THEIR COUNTRY. NOW WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DISINFORMATION HERE, I THINK WE CAN POINT TO A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES. COVID, FOR INSTANCE. THE VIOLENT INSURRECTION AT THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th. A NUMBER OF EVENTS THAT OCCURRED. WE HAVEN'T HAD THE NATIONAL RECKONING YET. IT'S SOMETHING THAT DOES PUT PEOPLE IN DANGER. AFTER THE INSURRECTION, YOU KNOW, I WROTE A PIECE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS ASKING IF IT WAS ENOUGH. NOW THAT THE INTERNET HAS COME FOR YOU, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, WILL WE WAKE UP AND ADDRESS THE ISSUE. WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO YET. I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION, TO SOME EXTENT FEELS HEMMED IN BY CONGRESS'S POLARIZATION AND LACK OF ACTION ON THIS ISSUE. THEY'RE AFRAID TO REALLY COME OUT IN FRONT AND PUSH BACK USING EXECUTIVE BRANCH POWERS. AND THERE ARE ALSO, YOU KNOW, LEGITIMATE FIRST AMENDMENT CONCERNS. BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THERE ARE WAYS TO FIGHT DISINFORMATION THROUGH PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS, THROUGH, YOU KNOW, PUTTING TOGETHER SOME REALLY GOOD GUARDRAILS, AGAIN, THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD WAS MEANT TO DO IN ORDER ABLE TO MONITOR WHAT IS BEING SAID. NOT INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS BUT THE GENERAL NARRATIVES GOING AROUND AND PREBUNK THEM. MAKE SURE WE'RE KEEPING AMERICANS SAFE AND, AGAIN, WE'RE PROTECTING OUR NATIONAL SECURITY. >> WE REACHED OUT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY FOR COMMENT. KNOWING, OBVIOUSLY, WE WERE GOING TO SPEAK WITH YOU. THEY SAID THE BOARD'S PURPOSE HAS BEEN GROSSLY AND INTENTIONALLY MISCHARACTERIZED. IT WAS NEVER ABOUT CENSORSHIP OF POLICING SPEECH. QUITE THE OPPOSITE. DESIGNED TO ENSURE WE FULFILL OUR MISSION TO PROTECT THE HOMELAND WHILE PROTECTING OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. SHE WAS SUBJECTED TO VISIBLE ATTACKS. AS THE SECRETARY SAID, NINA IS QUALIFIED TO DO THIS WORK. WE KNOW SHE WILL CONTINUE TO BE A LEADER IN THIS FIELD. SO THAT'S THEIR STATEMENT. HOWEVER THEY DECIDED TO DISSEMINATE IT. WHAT ABOUT THAT? MAYBE IT'S A STUPID QUESTION, DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER? >> IT'S WHAT THE DEPARTMENT HAD BEEN SAYING FOR THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS. I WISH WE WERE ABLE TO COME OUT SOONER AND, AGAIN, MORE STRONGLY AS THE ATTACKS BEGAN THE WEEK OF APRIL 27th WHICH WE MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT. I WISH WE WERE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION QUICKLY. IF IT WAS THE CASE, I MIGHT BE AT THE DEPARTMENT TODAY. I HOPE AS THIS BOARD IS EXAMINED BY THE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT THE FOLKS WHO ARE ADVISING THE DEPARTMENT RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF ITS WORK AND GO FORWARD WITH IT. NO NOT SUCCUMB TO THE PARTISAN ATTACKS. WHOEVER THEY EMPOWER TO LEAD IT IN THE FUTURE, I HOPE THEY'RE READY TO SUPPORT IT VOCALLY. THAT PERSON IS GOING TO COME UNDER SERIOUS ATTACK. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS POTENTIALLY HAD THE MOST PREPARED PERSON TO DEAL WITH THOSE SORT OF ATTACKS AND STILL DIFFICULT FOR ME. WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IN THE INTERNET ERA HOW NOT ONLY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES BUT MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS, ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS, ARE WILLING TO SUPPORT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, YOU KNOW, DOING THE WORK AS FIGURE HEADS. THIS IS THE REALITY OF THE INTERNET NOW. UNFORTUNATELY. I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE SECOND BOOK. TOO MANY ORGANIZATIONS DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT AND LEAVE THEIR EMPLOYEES TO TWIST IN THE WIND. >> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION LEFT YOU TO TWIST IN THE WIND? >> I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED A MORE FORCEFUL RESPONSE THAT FOCUSSED ON MY -- THERE ARE MANY. I HAVE WRITTEN TWO BOOKS AND HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF ACADEMICS AND ARTICLES THEY COULD HAVE PULLED FROM AND REBUTTED THE ATTACKS. I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK DURING THE THREE WEEKS WHEN MY PERSONAL REPUTATION WAS BEING ATTACKED EVERY DAY. I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO REBUTTED THE ATTACKS PERSONALLY. BOTH, YOU KNOW, ABOUT MY REPUTATION AND ABOUT THE BOARD BUT THAT WASN'T SOMETHING THE ADMINISTRATION WAS WILLING TO DO I WORRY ABOUT THE YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE LOOKING AT MY TWITTER FEED AND RESPOND TO A TWEET AND SENT A TWEET IT'S HUNDREDS OF FILTHY TERRIBLE MESSAGES. >> I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THE ATTACKS OR EVEN WORSE, IF I WANT A POSITION IN NATIONAL SECURITY OR POLITICS IN THE FUTURE, DO I NEED TO STAY SILENT? SHOULD I NOT SEND THE TWEET? THAT'S THE SILENCING EFFECT THAT I THINK THESE CAMPAIGNS HAVE AND I JUST WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW I WON'T BE SILENT IN THE FUTURE. THESE ATTACKS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP ME. IT'LL CHANGE, PERHAPS, THE WAY I ENCOURAGE ONLINE WHICH IS A REALITY FOR MOST WOMEN AND ESPECIALLY WOMEN OF COLOR. I'M GOING TO CONTINUE DOING WHAT I'VE ALWAYS DONE. SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THIS BEHAVIOR. I THINK IT'S A DETRIMENT TO OUR POLITICAL DISCOURSE AND OUR DEMOCRACY. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY. >> MY PLEASURE.