Amanpour and Company

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

MAYBE WE'LL BLOW THEM UP?

THE PRESIDENT AGAIN THREATENS IRAN AS THIS WAR DRAGS ON AND FROM THE AI RACE WITH CHINA TO RUSSIA CAUSING SERIOUS PROBLEMS FOR NATO, A MYRIAD OF FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES FOR AMERICANS.

I SPEAK TO SENATOR CHRIS COONS AS WE COUNT DOWN TO THE MIDTERMS.

> THEN AS DEMOCRATS QUESTION TRUMP'S OIL DEAL WITH VENEZUELA, HOW IS THE COUNTRY FARING UNDER THE THUMB OF THE UNITED STATES?

I'M JOINED BY EXPERT PHIL GUNSON FROM CARACAS.

> AND -- THOSE WHO WROTE ABOUT THE SYSTEMS OF SEGREGATION, WHEN IT CAME TO THEIR OWN CHOICES FOR THEIR KIDS, THEY ACTUALLY MADE CHOICES THAT BENEFITTED FROM THAT SEGREGATION AND INEQUALITY.

THE SCHOOLING DECISION SPARKING FIERCE DEBATE ABOUT EDUCATION.

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HER AND HER DAUGHTER'S STORY.

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> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE LONG ODDS OF DIPLOMACY, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THAT HE DOES NOT THINK, QUOTE, YOU COULD EVER HAVE PEACE WITH IRAN.

THAT WAS IN A WIDE RANGING INTERVIEW WITH "TIME" MAGAZINE IN WHICH HE ALSO THREATENED TO AGAIN ATTACK THE COUNTRY AFTER THE MIDTERMS.

> MEANWHILE, RUSSIA HIT A SCHOOL IN KYIV TODAY IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.

LUCKILY THE CHILDREN AND STAFF WERE SHELTERING AND UNHARMED.

BUT AS UKRAINE'S KIDS CONTINUE TO LIVE UNDER THE FEROCITY OF RUSSIA'S MISSILES, AMERICA IS STANDING BY, INSTEAD CHOOSING TO EXCLUDE KEY ALLIES LIKE BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND THE BALTIC STATES FROM AN UPCOMING NATO MEETING NEXT MONTH.

AND OF COURSE THE AI RACE WITH CHINA CONTINUES APACE.

HERE'S PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAKING THIS WEEK.

WE'RE LEADING BY A LOT, AND WE DON'T WANT TO MIX IT UP TOO MUCH EITHER.

SOMEBODY SAID OH, LET'S DO A JOINT VENTURE.

LET'S WORK TOGETHER WITH CHINA.

BUT IF WE DO THAT, WE'RE GOING TO BE GIVING A LOT OF SECRETS THAT WE HAVE THAT THEY JUST WOULD WANT TO HAVE, OR ANYBODY ELSE.

AND FRANKLY, THERE IS NOBODY IN THIRD PLACE.

I MEAN, IT'S ALL BETWEEN US AND CHINA, AND PRESIDENT XI WAS HERE.

WELL TALKED ABOUT IT.

NOT THAT MUCH, BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING.

WE'RE LEADING.

SO WHY WOULD I WANT TO DO ANYTHING?

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY LET'S DO IT TOGETHER WITH CHINA, BUT THEN THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO IMMEDIATELY GAIN ACCESS TO THINGS THAT WE KNOW THAT THEY DON'T KNOW.

SO AS THE MIDTERMS APPROACH AT HOME, VOTERS HAVE SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT GRAPPLING WITH THE WORLD.

LET'S ASK SENATOR CHRIS COONS, WHO IS OF COURSE ON THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.

SENATOR, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ALWAYS GREAT TO BE ON WITH YOU.

SO THERE IS A WHOLE LOAD WE'VE JUST LAID OUT.

I THINK EVERYBODY'S REALLY LOOKING AT THE SUPERPOWER COMPETITION, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES.

SO WE HAD THIS SUMPTUOUS WELCOME FOR PRESIDENT XI LAST WEEK AROUND THE U. N. , AND THEN TODAY IS CHINA UNITY DAY.

ON THE EVE, PRESIDENT XI SPOKE AGAIN ABOUT ADVANCING THE GREAT CAUSE OF NATIONAL REUNIFICATION.

NOW, IS THIS THROWING DOWN A GAUNTLET, OR IS THIS JUST STANDARD SPEAK BY A CHINESE PRESIDENT?

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT RIGHT AFTER HIS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP?

LOOK, XI JINPING CONTINUES TO MAKE CLEAR IN EVERY POSSIBLE SETTING THAT REUNIFICATION WITH TAIWAN, BY FORCE IF NECESSARY, IS HIS PRINCIPLE GOAL.

AND BY FAILING TO BE CLEARER AND STRONGER ABOUT OUR VIEWS ON TAIWAN AND ON OUR COMPETITION WITH CHINA, I THINK TRUMP IS ENCOURAGING XI, IN THE SAME WAY THAT HE IS ENCOURAGING PUTIN AND HIS AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE AND HIS ADVENTURISM IN TESTING NATO BY BEING INSUFFICIENTLY CLEAR AND TOUGH.

WHEN TRUMP CAME INTO POWER AGAIN FOR HIS SECOND TERM, THERE WERE IN PLACE EXPORT CONTROLS ON ADVANCED AI CHIPS THAT WERE VERY BOTHERSOME TO CHINA.

HE'S NOW MOVED TO ALLOW NVIDIA CHIPS TO BE EXPORTED TO CHINA.

HE'S NOT STANDING UP FOR AMERICA'S BEST INTERESTS IN CONSTRAINING CHINA'S ADVANCE IN AI.

IN THE SAME WAY, HE ROLLED OUT THE RED CARPET FOR PUTIN IN ANCHORAGE AND HAS TAKEN BOTH SIDES OF THIS WAR, ENCOURAGING ZELENSKYY TO MAKE CONCESSIONS, TO GIVE UP TERRITORY, AND REFUSING TO PROVIDE THE SORT OF TOUGH SANCTIONS AND ONGOING MILITARY SUPPORT THAT I THINK UKRAINE DESERVES.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP BY THE WAY HE'S BEEN ACTING WITH REGARDS TO BOTH OF THESE AGGRESSIVE AUTHORITARIANS, PUTIN AND XI, IS ENCOURAGING AGGRESSION.

SO LET'S TAKE TAIWAN FIRST.

LET'S THROW A LITTLE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE AT YOU, BECAUSE WHILE XI PRESSED TRUMP TO SAY THAT AMERICA ACTUALLY OPPOSES TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE, PRESIDENT TRUMP DID NOT TAKE THAT BAIT.

HAS XI GOT WHAT HE WANTS?

AND WHERE DOES THE $14 BILLION ARMS PACKAGE FOR TAIWAN STAND, WHICH HAS BEEN FROZEN SINCE THE MAY SUMMIT IN BEIJING?

TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, CHRISTIANE, IT'S STILL FROZEN.

AND STEPS LIKE REDUCING OUR ANNUAL MILITARY EXERCISES WITH SOUTH KOREA, NOT STRONGLY DEFENDING THE JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER WHEN XI FACED ABUSE OR AGGRESSIVE SPEECHES, REMARKS BY XI JINPING, AND NOT RELEASING THIS NEXT ROUND OF ARM SALES TO TAIWAN, ALL OF THOSE SEND A SIGNAL THAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO COZY UP TO OR AT LEAST NOT ACCELERATE THE TENSIONS WITH XI JINPING.

YES, HE DID NOT TAKE THE NEXT STEP IN TERMS OF OUR RHETORIC AROUND TAIWAN THAT XI JINPING ASKED.

TRUMP DID NOT SAY THAT AS A COUNTRY WE ALTERNATIVELY OPPOSE TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE.

I THINK THE DECADES OF STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY OVER OUR VIEWS ON TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE ARE A POSITIVE, AND I DON'T THINK TRUMP SHOULD HAVE GIVEN THAT AWAY.

WE CONTINUE TO BE IN A DIFFICULT TRADE WAR WITH CHINA, BUT I'LL REMIND YOU, ONE OF TRUMP'S OWN CHOOSING AND INITIATION.

ON SO-CALLED LIBERATION DAY, TRUMP LAUNCHED DOUBLE-DIGIT TARIFFS AGAINST NOT JUST THE PRC, BUT MOST OF OUR CLOSE ALLIES AND PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD, INCLUDING CANADA AND MEXICO, AUSTRALIA AND THE UK, AS WELL AS THE PRC.

THAT PRODUCED A SHARP RESPONSE FROM CHINA, WHICH USED THEIR DOMINANCE OF CRITICAL MINERALS AND RARE EARTHS TO EXERCISE LEVERAGE BACK AGAINST TRUMP.

AND EVER SINCE THEN, HE'S BEEN HESITANT OF DOING ANYTHING TO FURTHER ESCALATE THIS NEEDLESS TARIFF WAR WITH CHINA.

PART OF THAT IS OVER AI.

YOU HEARD I HOPE WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LED IN TO YOU, THAT NO, I CAN'T GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING BECAUSE THIS IS ABOUT WE TWO.

IT'S EITHER U. S. OR CHINA THAT'S GOING WIN AND WE ARE RIGHT NOW IN THE LEAD.

BUT DID THE SUMMIT PRODUCE ANYTHING THAT MADE YOU THINK THERE MAY BE SOME GUARDRAILS OR WHAT THE TECH INDUSTRY IT'S SELF IS CALLING FOR AND INCREASINGLY WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE CALLING FOR.

THERE WAS TALK OF SOME HOTLINE.

WHAT WAS ACHIEVED THERE?

I DID DISCUSS THAT WITH THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR AT A RECENT PUBLIC EVENT HERE.

WE WERE BOTH AT A MEMORIAL SERVICE FOR ALAN GREENSPAN ON MONDAY.

AND I WAS ENCOURAGED BY PRESS ACCOUNTS THAT THERE IS AT LEAST AN OPEN LINE OF COMMUNICATION.

BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF ALARMS THAT ARE BEING RUNG BY AI LEADERS IN RECENT WEEKS ARE RAISING MY LEVEL OF CONCERN AND ANXIETY AND THAT OF MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES HERE IN THE SENATE.

I DO THINK THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO BE THE WORLD LEADER IN FRONTIER AI RESEARCH AND EXPECT REASONABLE GUARDRAILS.

LAST NIGHT ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE, I TRIED TO PASS BY WHAT'S CALLED UNANIMOUS CONSENT AN AI WHISTLE-BLOWER PROTECTION BILL THAT SENATOR CHUCK GRASSLEY AND I HAVE WRITTEN AND INTRODUCED.

SENATOR TED CRUZ OBJECTED BUT SAID THAT HE WILL WORK WITH US IN THE COMING WEEKS TO TRY AND NARROW IT AND GET IT PASSED WHEN WE RETURN IN NOVEMBER.

THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER BIPARTISAN BILLS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

I INTRODUCED ANOTHER ONE WITH SENATORS LANKFORD AND BRITT AND SCHATZ THAT WOULD COMPEL TRANSPARENCY ABOUT SAFETY TAKEN BY AI COMPANIES, WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO TEST THEM FOR THEIR POTENTIAL THREATS TO CHILDREN, AND MORE BROADLY TO OUR SOCIETY.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE ONE REALLY SETTING THE TONE HERE.

AND AS YOU SAID, CHRISTIANE, WHEN HE PUBLICLY ANNOUNCES THERE IS NO NEED FOR US TO CUT ANY GUARD RAILS ON ANY AI SYSTEMS, WHAT HE'S DOING FLIES IN THE FACE OF DIRE PREDICTIONS FROM TECHNOLOGY LEADERS LIKE BILL GATES OR THE CURRENT CEOs LIKE DARIO AM ADI.

IT IS TIME FOR US TO BE TOUGHER ON OUR CONTROL OF CHIPS WHICH HELP FUEL CHINA'S RACE TOWARDS FRONTIER AI AND TO EXPECT REASONABLE GUARD RAILS FROM THE INDUSTRY AND TO WORK IN A COLLABORATIVE BIPARTISAN WAY TO DELIVER THOSE GUARDRAILS.

LOOK, EVERY MAJOR TECHNOLOGY FROM JET AIRLINERS AND AUTOMOBILES TO BANKING ONLINE AND NUCLEAR ENERGY HAS GUARDRAILS IN PLACE.

HAS WHISTLE- BLOWER PROTECTIONS, HAS FEDERAL INSPECTORS, HAS A FEDERAL REGULATORY AGENCY.

WE SHOULD EXPECT NO LESS OF THIS RAPIDLY DEVELOPING AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TECHNOLOGY.

YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHERS IN THE TECH WORLD WHO DON'T AGREE AND THINK THIS IS ALL DOOM MONGERING AND SCARE TACTICS, BUT, YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT YOU - -HOW WORRIED ARE YOU?

YOU SORT OF OUTLINED IT.

YOU TRIED TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION.

YOU HAD SENATOR CRUZ NOT GO WITH IT FOR THE MOMENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE SENATE, WILL YOU PICK IT UP AGAIN AFTER THE MIDTERMS, EVEN IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T WIN, WILL YOU DO WHAT THE PEOPLE ARE ASKING, AND THAT IS TO PROTECT THEM FROM UNBRIDLED AI?

DO YOU THINK EVEN REPUBLICANS MIGHT TAKE THAT UP AFTER THE MIDTERMS?

YES.

I HAD LENGTHY AND SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS WITH REPUBLICAN SENATORS ON THE FLOOR LAST NIGHT.

WE WERE HERE VOTING FOR SEVERAL HOURS.

MEMBERS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, MEMBERS OF THE COMMERCE COMMITTEE, MEMBERS OF THE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE.

BECAUSE WHILE I SEE THE VERY REAL POSITIVE POTENTIAL OF AI TO HELP WITH CURING DISEASES OR WITH CLEAN ENERGY OR TO CONTRIBUTE SIGNIFICANTLY TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, IF ANY OF THE MAJOR ALARMS BEING RAISED BY BUSINESS LEADERS IN AI, IF THEY'RE AL OUGHT TRUE, WE HAVE ONE LAST CHANCE TO GET THIS RIGHT BEFORE AI GETS AWAY FROM US.

NONE OF THE TECHNOLOGIES THAT I JUST REFERENCED, NUCLEAR POWER OR AUTOMOBILES OR JET PLANES IS CAPABLE OF IMPROVING THEMSELVES WITHOUT HUMAN ENGAGEMENT.

AI INCREASINGLY IS, AS YOU WELL KNOW, CHRISTIANE, AND YOUR VIEWERS PROBABLY DO AS WELL, THERE WAS AN ALARMING INCIDENT RECENTLY WHERE AI AGENTS BUILT BY OPENAI BROKE OUT OF THEIR CONTAINMENT SYSTEM, WENT OUT ON TO THE INTERNET AND FOUND AND ATTACKED ANOTHER AI COMPANY CALLED HUGGING FACE.

AND THEY DID THINGS THAT THEIR CREATORS DIDN'T EXPECT THEY COULD DO OR WOULD DO.

TRYING TO CONCEAL WHAT THEY WERE DOING, INVENTING A LANGUAGE TO COMMUNICATE BETWEEN THESE HUNDREDS OF AI BOTS THAT HUMANS CAN'T UNDERSTAND.

THE FOLKS WHO ARE DEVELOPING AND LEADING THIS RACE TOWARDS AI ARE INCREASINGLY ALARMED BECAUSE AI AGENTS ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THINGS AND DOING THINGS THAT THEY DIDN'T EXPECT AND THEY CAN'T EXPLAIN.

THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED.

AND IF WE GET THIS WRONG AND IT GENUINELY GETS AWAY FROM US AND BEGINS DESIGNING THINGS TO HURT PEOPLE, IT WILL BE THE LAST MISTAKE WE EVER MAKE.

I RECENTLY WATCHED A POWERFUL MOVIE CALLED THE AI DOC, A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT HOW TO BALANCE APOCALYPTIC AND OPTIMISTIC VIEWS OF AI, AND I'D RECOMMEND IT TO YOUR VIEWERS.

IT IS A SURVEY OF ALL THE MAJOR THINKERS IN THIS SPACE AND IT LEFT ME BOTH OPTIMISTIC AND TERRIFIED.

WELL, POINT TAKEN.

YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THE APOCALYPTIC POTENTIAL NATURE OF THIS.

AND OF COURSE IN A BYGONE ERA AND EVEN NOW, THE APOCALYPTIC NATURE OF A NUCLEAR THREAT AND THE, YOU KNOW, INABILITY TO WORK WITH RUSSIA, PARTICULARLY OVER THE CURRENT SITUATION IN EUROPE AND THE CONSTANT ATTACKS ON UKRAINE, WHICH ARE GETTING WORSE AND WORSE.

SO WHAT I WANT TO UNDERSTAND FROM YOU, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND FROM SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN MOOTED BY THE PENTAGON SAYING --AND LET ME GET IT STRAIGHT TO GET THE RIGHT COUNTRIES -- THAT THERE IS AN UPCOMING MEETING AT WHICH POLITICO REPORTS THE PENTAGON WILL HOLD THIS MEETING IN POLAND NEXT MONTH, BUT HAS LEFT OUT BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND THE BALTIC STATES, WHICH ARE ALL MAJOR DEFENSE SPENDERS.

THE INVITED GROUP INCLUDES GERMANY, POLAND AND THE NORDICS, MAYBE DENMARK AFTER THIS DEAL OVER GREENLAND, WHICH GIVES THE U. S. MAYBE A BIGGER FOOTPRINT THERE.

IS THAT POSSIBLE?

I MEAN, WHY?

ISN'T IT PUTIN'S DREAM TO SPLIT NATO, OR ARE WE READING SOMETHING DIFFERENT INTO THIS?

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT, THAT IT'S PUTIN'S DREAM TO DIVIDE NATO INTERNALLY AND TO DIVIDE THE UNITED STATES FROM NATO.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS HURDLING TOWARDS THAT OUTCOME.

I WAS AT THE MOST RECENT NATO SUMMIT IN ANKARA, MET WITH MANY NATO LEADERS.

I WAS ALSO AT THE U. N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY JUST A WEEK AGO, AND WHAT I'M HEARING FROM OUR NATO AND GLOBAL ALLIES IS REAL CONCERN ABOUT HOW RELIABLE THE UNITED STATES AS AN ALLY AND A PARTNER.

REMEMBER, THE END OF THE DAY, THE ARTICLE 5 COMMITMENT THAT'S AT THE HEART OF NATO IS ABOUT TRUST.

IT'S ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT OUR ALLIES TRUST US TO COME TO THEIR DEFENSE AS THEY CAME TO OURS IN THE EVENT OF AN ATTACK.

AND THE BALTIC STATES ARE AT THE VERY TOP OF THE LIST IN DEFENSE SPENDING, IN INTEGRATION INTO NATO, INTO BEING FORWARD-LEANING AND HELPING UKRAINE, AND IN BEING ALARMED AT THE VERY REAL POSSIBILITY THAT PUTIN WILL ATTACK A NATO COUNTRY.

PUTIN'S RUSSIAN MILITARY IS DOING EVERYTHING IT CAN TO CARRY OUT WHAT ARE CALLED GRAY ZONE ATTACKS, HIRING SABOTEURS, SENDING DRONES INTO NATO AIRSPACE AND THEN BRINGING THEM BACK OUT, CONDUCTING CYBER ATTACKS, PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES EVERY SINGLE DAY.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED, CHRISTIANE, THE ONGOING BRUTALITY OF RUSSIAN ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN TARGETS IN UKRAINE AND THE FACT THAT OUR EUROPEAN NATO ALLIES ARE DEDICATING TENS OF BILLIONS OF THEIR DOLLARS TOWARDS ARMING AND SUPPORTING UKRAINE LEAVES ALL OF THEM WONDERING WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

BRIDGE COLBY, WHO IS THE POLICY DIRECTOR AT THE PENTAGON, IS LEADING A SO-CALLED NATO REVIEW.

AND I MET WITH HIM RECENTLY BECAUSE I'M THE SENIOR DEMOCRAT ON DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS TO PRESS HIM ON WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

IT'S CAUSING REAL WORRY AMONGST NATO ALLIES THAT THEY MIGHT BE ABRUPTLY PRESENTED WITH A WITHDRAWAL, WITH A DECISION BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO WITHDRAW KEY AMERICAN TROOPS AND CAPABILITIES FROM NATO EXACTLY AT THE MOMENT WHEN THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE PUTIN IN HIS AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE AND POTENTIALLY AGAINST NATO.

IT'S A DANGEROUS GAME THEY'RE PLAYING.

THE EUROPEANS HAVE STEPPED UP.

THEY HAVE GENUINELY TAKEN ON, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE LONG BEFORE, A FAIR SHARE OF THE COSTS OF DEFENDING EUROPE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, BRIDGE COLBY, SECRETARY HEGSETH, THEY SHOULD TAKE THE WIN AND CELEBRATE THAT COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY AND THE UK AND THE BALTIC STATES ARE SPENDING AT A MUCH HIGHER RATE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

AND IF WE ARE GRADUALLY GOING TO TRANSITION TOWARDS A EUROPEAN-LED SECURITY FOR EUROPE, IT SHOULD HAPPEN OVER A DECADE, NOT ABRUPTLY AND NOT WITHOUT FULL CONSULTATION.

YEAH, I MEAN, THAT WAS --THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS IN THAT BRIDGE COLBY REPORT ANY WAY FROM POLITICO ON THIS.

WE'LL HOPE TO TRY TO TRACK THEM DOWN AND PICK THEM DOWN.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY ON IRAN AND THE HORMUZ STRAIT.

IT IS BACK AND FORTH REPORTS.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHETHER ANYTHING SUBSTANTIVE CAME OUT OF MEETINGS, INDIRECT MEETINGS AT THE U. N. , PRESIDENT TRUMP AGAIN SAYS HEY, WAIT UNTIL AFTER THE MIDTERMS AND WE'LL GO BACK ON THE OFFENSIVE.

IT'S JUST A LOT OF MIXED MESSAGING, AND AGAIN, FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, THEY WANT TO SEE IT ENDED BECAUSE, AMONGST OTHER THINGS, THE MASSIVE PRICE HIKES.

LOOK, AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS ARE BEARING MUCH HIGHER COSTS FOR FERTILIZER AND THUS FOOD AND GROCERIES, FOR DIESEL AND FOR GASOLINE, EVEN FOR HELIUM, WHICH IS USED IN CRITICAL MEDICAL TESTS.

ALL OF WHICH TRANSIT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THERE IS A STEADILY INCREASING VOLUME OF UNREFINED PRODUCT OF CRUDE OIL GETTING THROUGH THE STRAIT, BUT THE IRANIANS CONTINUE TO LAUNCH INDISCRIMINATELY DRONES AND BALLISTIC MISSILES AT CIVILIAN SHIPS TRANSITING THE SHAPE.

AND RECENTLY, THE HOUTHIS, AN IRANIAN PROXY GROUP BASED IN YEMEN, ARE STRIKING SAUDI SHIPS IN THE RED SEA AND ARE MAKING ADVANCES IN TERRITORY AROUND THE PERIMETER OF THE RED SEA THAT MAY ALLOW THEM TO MORE DIRECTLY CONTROL THE BAB EL MANDEB, THE STRAIT THAT LEADS PRODUCT IN AND OUT OF THE RED SEA.

THIS IS A MESS.

CHRISTIANE, PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK US INTO THIS WAR WITHOUT CONSULTING OUR ALLIES, WITHOUT CONSULTING CONGRESS, AND WITHOUT MAKING A CLEAR CASE.

WHEN WE GO TO WAR, WHEN WE ASK AMERICA'S MEN AND WOMEN AT ARMS TO TAKE UP THE RISK AND THE SACRIFICE, WE DESERVE A PRESIDENT WHO GIVES US A CLEAR CASE.

WHAT ARE THE COSTS, WHAT WILL THE DURATION BE, AND WHO SHOULD BEAR THOSE COSTS.

JUST YESTERDAY, THE LAST AMERICANS WERE WITHDRAWN FROM IRAQ AFTER 23 YEARS, AND THAT'S THE SORT OF FOREVER WAR, WITH AN UNENDING COST IN BLOOD AND TREASURE THAT AMERICANS VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE HE PROMISED NOT TO DO THAT AGAIN.

THIS WAR WITH IRAN WAS SUPPOSED TO BE QUICK, CHEAP, AND EASY, SIX WEEKS.

RELATIVELY FEW IF ANY CASUALTIES.

AND HERE WE ARE MONTHS AND MONTHS LATER, AND WE'RE PAYING THE PRICE AT THE PUMP AND THE GROCERY STORE, 18 AMERICANS HAVE PAID THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, AND HUNDREDS MORE HAVE BEEN WOUNDED, AND OUR MILITARY FACILITIES AND EMBASSIES THROUGHOUT THE REGION HAVE BEEN STRUCK AT A COST OF BILLIONS.

WE WILL BE PAYING FOR THIS WAR FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.

AND CHRISTIANE, I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY BREAKTHROUGHS OR FRANKLY ANY PROGRESS HAVING BEEN MADE IN THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT HAPPENED ALONG THE SIDELINES OF THE U. N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY OR THROUGH OTHER INTERMEDIARIES.

WE'RE STUCK.

WE'RE IN A DIFFICULT PLACE.

AND I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP NEEDS TO DROP BACK 20 YARDS, CONSULT WITH HIS ALLIES, CONSULT WITH OUR PERSIAN GULF PARTNERS AND COME UP WITH A PLAN THAT CAN WORK AND THAT DOESN'T LEAF IRAN PERMANENTLY IN CONTROL OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

AND VERY BRIEFLY, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO MOVE ON, DO YOU THINK IF ONE OF THE HOUSES OF CONGRESS GOES TO THE DEMOCRATS AFTER THE MIDTERMS THAT WHETHER IT'S THE HOUSE OR SENATE OR BOTH, CAN --CAN CONGRESS USE THEIR LEVERAGE TO ACTUALLY DEMAND THE KINDS OF THINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

WE HAVE ACTUALLY PASSED -- ON THIS.

IN BOTH CHAMBERS A WAR POWERS ACT RESOLUTION OF DISAPPROVAL.

IT'S CLEAR CONGRESS DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS WAR.

AND ULTIMATELY, CONGRESS' REAL POWER IS THE POWER OF THE PURSE.

AND SO WHEN WE RETURN, DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ARE GOING TO BE A CENTRAL ISSUE ON THE TABLE.

AND I HOPE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PAYING ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SENIOR REPUBLICAN APPROPRIATORS ARE SAYING THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE HIM THE EXTRA HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS HE IS SEEKING FOR THIS WAR.

SO I DO THINK THAT WHEN CONGRESS IS IN DEMOCRATIC CONTROL, HE WILL NOT SEE THE FUNDING HE NEEDS.

WE WON'T LEAVE AMERICA'S MEN AND WOMEN AT ARMS IN A LURCH.

WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY, MAKING SURE THAT THE CREW OF THE USS LINCOLN, FOR EXAMPLE, OR OUR TROOPS WHO ARE DEPLOYED IN THE MIDDLE EAST ARE CARED FOR.

BUT SOME OF HIS WILDER ADVENTURES CREATING A NEW TRUMP BATTLESHIP AND GOLDEN DOME WILL NOT GET FUNDED, AND HE WILL THEN HAVE TO COME TO CONGRESS FOR US TO FIND A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER, WHICH I BELIEVE WILL INCLUDE ENDING THIS WAR OF CHOICE IN IRAN.

REALLY INTERESTING.

SENATOR COONS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM WASHINGTON AND CAPITOL HILL.

QUOTE, THE BIGGEST OIL DEAL IN WORLD HISTORY.

A TRUMPISM, OF COURSE, BUT HE IS REFERRING TO THE PENTAGON DEAL TO TAKE A LARGE STAKE IN A VENEZUELAN OIL COMPANY.

SEVERAL TOP DEMOCRATIC SENATORS SOUNDED THE ALARM WARNING THAT UNDERMINES THE COUNTRY'S DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION AS CALLS FOR ELECTIONS IN VENEZUELA GROW, OPPOSITION LEADER AND NOBEL LAUREATE MARIA CORINA MACHADO HAS BEEN BLOCKED FROM ENTERING HER OWN COUNTRY.

LET'S GO TO PHIL GUNSON, A JOURNALIST, WHO HAS LIVED IN VENEZUELA FOR MORE THAN 25 YEARS.

HE IS JOINING US FROM CARACAS.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, PHIL GUNSON.

LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, YOU'VE BEEN THERE, AS I SAID, FOR 25 YEARS.

YOU'VE LIVED THROUGH MANY CYCLES OF CHAVEZMO, AND NICOLAS MADURO.

DO WE CALL THIS CHAVEZ 2.

0?

HOW DO YOU TERM WHAT'S ON THE TABLE RIGHT NOW?

YES, VERY GOOD QUESTION, CHRISTIANE.

HOW DO WE DEFINE THIS.

FOR MANY PEOPLE, THE REVOLUTION IS OVER.

CHEN CHAVEZMO WAS BUILD AS A RADICAL ANTI-IMPERIAL EXPERIMENT.

AND THE FACT IS THAT ALMOST EVERYTHING THEY'VE SAID OVER THE LAST QUARTER CENTURY IS NOW BEING REVERSED.

NOT JUST RHETORICALLY, BUT IN PRACTICE.

NOW IT APPEARS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IN CARACAS IS A KEY ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES.

ITS GEOPOLITICAL ALIGNMENT HAS CHANGED RADICALLY.

IT'S NO LONGER IRAN, CHINA, RUSSIA THAT IS WELCOME WITH OPENED ARMS HERE.

IT'S U. S. CABINET SECRETARIES AND EVEN THE HEAD OF SOUTH COM CIA.

I THINK THE REVOLUTION IS OVER, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT THAT'S LEFT IN POWER IS GOING TO BE LEAVING ANY TIME SOON.

OKAY.

SO THAT'S INTERESTING.

WE'LL DELVE DOWN ON THE ELECTIONS.

SO FOR MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING IN VENEZUELAN EXILES, THE REALIGNMENT IS JUST FINE.

THEY WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE AMERICANS AND BUSINESS THAN IRANIANS AND RUSSIANS AND I DON'T KNOW WHO ELSE COMING OVER THERE.

THOSE WHO ARE CONSIDERED OUTSIDE THE SORT OF NORM IN TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL RULES AND NORMS.

SO WHAT ABOUT ELECTIONS?

AS I LED INTO YOU, WE BASICALLY KNOW FROM HER PEOPLE THAT MARIA CORINA MACHADO HAS BEEN BASICALLY PREVENTED BY LAND, SEA, AND AIR FROM.

COG HOME, EVEN THOUGH DELSI MENTIONED THAT THE ELECTIONS WOULD TAKE PLACE, BUT NO TIMELINE YET.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO COME?

I JUST WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU SOMETHING I ASKED ANOTHER MAJOR LEADER IN THAT HEMISPHERE, BRAZIL'S PRESIDENT LUNA DA SILVA WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM EXCLUSIVELY AT THE U. N.

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE COUNTRY HAS ENDED.

THIS IS NOT GOOD.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THE U. S. , AND IT'S NOT GOOD FOR VENEZUELA AND DEMOCRACY EITHER.

THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BUILD PARTNERSHIP IN VENEZUELA SO THAT VENEZUELA --I SAID THE OTHER DAY, IF I WAS SY, I WOULD CALL FOR ELECTION TO CHOOSE WHO IS GOING TO BE IN NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY.

THE WAY THE U. S. IS TREATING DELSI'S BOSS.

DO YOU ALSO THINK THAT DELSY RODRIGUEZ IS ABANDONING SOVEREIGNTY OR IS SHE CLEVERLY RIDING A WAVE OF INVESTMENT, GETTING RID AS YOU SAID THE REVOLUTION HAS ENDED.

DO YOU THINK SHE'S MAKING A GOOD PLAY FOR THE FUTURE HEALTH OF VENEZUELA'S ECONOMY AND ITS PEOPLE ?

YEAH, I DON'T THINK THOSE TWO THINGS ARE NECESSARILY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

I THINK YES, SHE'S ABANDONED SOVEREIGNTY.

SHE'S ABANDONED SOVEREIGNTY IN ORDER TO STAY IN POWER, MAYBE TO STAY PERSONALLY OUT OF JAIL.

AND CERTAINLY, THE FACTS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS PUSHING VERY HARD TO OPEN UP THE VENEZUELAN ECONOMY, TO BRING IN BILLIONS IN INVESTMENT, PARTICULARLY FROM THE U. S. MAY FAVOR DELSY IN THE SENSE IF IT IMPROVES THE ECONOMY, MAYBE IMPROVES HER OWN PERSONAL STANDING WHICH IS VERY LOW AMONG THE VENEZUELAN ELECTORATE.

MAYBE THE SUPPORT FROM TRUMP AND EVEN THE ABANDONMENT OF LONG HELD CHAV ISTA PRINCIPLES KEPT HER IN POWER.

HER BROTHER JORGE IS THE HEAD OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.

THEY UNDERSTAND IF THEY WERE TO GO INTO FREE AND FAIR ELECTION ANY TIME SOON, THEY'RE GOING TO BE VOTED OUT OF POWER.

I THINK THEIR INTEREST IS IN DRAGGING THEIR FEET, IN YES, MAKING A FEW REFORMS HERE AND THERE, BUT MAKING IT AS SLOWLY AS POSSIBLE IN THE HOPE OF FINDING A WAY TO STAY IN POWER, EVEN DESPITE THE CALL FOR ELECTIONS.

AND WHAT ALTERNATIVE OR RECOURSE DO YOU THINK ARE THE DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION ACTUALLY HAS IF THEY CAN'T EVEN LAND?

SOME PEOPLE HAVE COME, BUT NOT THE MAIN ONE WHO IS CREDITED WITH HAVING WON THE LAST ELECTIONS.

WHAT RECOURSE DO THEY HAVE?

YEAH, WELL, MARIA CORINA MACHADO, IN PARTICULAR, WHO IS BEING PREVENTED FROM RETURNING, OF COURSE IF VENEZUELA WERE A DEMOCRACY, MARIA CORINA MACHADO WOULD HAVE BEEN IN POWER ALREADY FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

SHE WOULD BE THE RIGHTFUL PRESIDENT.

HER SUBSTITUTE CANDIDATE BECAUSE SHE WAS BANNED FROM STANDING WAS THE OVERWHELMING VICTOR IN 2024.

BUT SHE CAN'T GET BACK.

AND OF COURSE THE MORE SHE STAYS OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY, THE MORE SHE'S BASICALLY BEING BLOCKED FROM IMPLEMENTING HER ELECTORAL STRATEGY, HER BID FOR POWER, THEN THE MORE SHE IS LIKELY TO SUFFER FROM THE SYNDROME THAT AFFECTS EVERY EXILED LEADER.

OVER TIME PEOPLE FORGET THEM.

PEOPLE RUN OUT OF FAITH THE IN THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE GOING TO RETURN AND COME TO POWER.

SO SHE NEEDS TO COME BACK VERY SOON.

BUT BROADLY SPEAKING, THE OPPOSITION AS A WHOLE, MANY OF WHOM, MANY OF THE POLITICAL LEADERS HERE DON'T BELIEVE WITH MARIA CORINA MACHADO'S STRATEGY OR DON'T FAVOR HER BRAND OF POLITICS.

BUT THE OPPOSITION AS A WHOLE NEEDS TO COME TOGETHER AROUND SOMETHING THAT WILL ANSWER THE DEMANDS OF THE VENEZUELAN POPULATION.

AND THOSE INCLUDE NOT ONLY CRITICISMS OF WHAT DELSY RODRIGUEZ IS UP TO IN HER GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO CRITICISMS OF WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS DOING.

THE PROBLEM THAT BOTH HAVE, BOTH THE GOVERNMENT AND THE OPPOSITION IS THAT THEY'RE BOTH UNDER TUTELAGE.

THEY'RE BOTH BEING MANIPULATED BY THE U. S. FROM AFAR.

IT'S AS BIG A PROBLEM FOR THE OPPOSITION AS IT IS FOR THE GOVERNMENT, PROBABLY EVEN BIGGER.

LET ME JUST PLAY SOME SOUND THAT WE'VE GATHERED FROM PROTESTERS.

Translator: ENOUGH ALREADY.

WE WANT ELECTIONS.

WE WANT OUR LEADER, MARIA CORINA MACHADO, THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF OUR DEAR BELOVED VENEZUELA.

Translator: MR.

DONALD TRUMP, WE ARE PREPARED.

WE SHOWED IT ON OCTOBER 28th, 2024, AND WE REMAIN PREPARED TO SHOW HIM THAT HERE WE HAVE LEADERSHIP AND WE HAVE A PEOPLE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR THEIR FREEDOM, AND THAT WE WILL CONTINUE IN THE STREETS AND THE FIGHT.

Translator: UNFORTUNATELY, THE HAND OF DONALD TRUMP IS INVOLVED HERE.

IT IS REGRETTABLE, BUT THAT'S HOW IT IS.

WE ARE NOT FOOLS.

WE NOTICE WHAT IS HAPPENING.

THEY'RE SAYING THERE IS A CHANGE, MY GOD, WHAT CHANGE?

SO THAT WAS A GROUP OF WOMEN WHO OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU HEARD, WANT THEIR FREE VOICE AND THEIR FREE VOTE.

BUT HOW MUCH OF A STRONGHOLD?

CAN YOU SORT OF GIVE US A VIEW OF HOW STRONG.

YOU JUST SAID, OF COURSE, THAT HAD MARIA MACHADO BEEN THERE, SHE WOULD BE PRESIDENT.

RIGHT NOW WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE VOTE THAT THE OPPOSITION COULD COUNT ON, DO YOU THINK?

WELL, IF THERE WERE FREE AND FAIR ELECTION TOMORROW, AND MARIA CORINA MACHADO STOOD AGAINST DELSY RODRIGUEZ, SHE WOULD WIN BY A VERY LARGE MARGIN.

THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY SOME PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY ON THE CHAVISTA OR EX-CHAVISTA SIDE WHILE THEY MAY NOT LIKE DELSY, DETEST MACHADO EVEN MORE.

DELSY WOULD GET A CERTAIN BOOST IN THE ELECTIONS FOR NOT BEING MARIA CORINA MACHADO.

BUT 4/5 OF THE VOTE WOULD GO TO HER.

NOW OF COURSE WE DON'T KNOW IF THERE WILL BE A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE WILL BE THE CANDIDATE.

OVERALL, PEOPLE WANT CHANGE.

AND THE CANDIDATE PROMISING CHANGE IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY, VERY BIG CHANCE OF WINNING ANY ELECTION WHENEVER IT MIGHT TAKE PLACE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE COST OF LIVING, PEOPLE'S -- LOTS OF POVERTY AND MALFUNCTION OF THE ECONOMY OVER THESE PAST MANY YEARS.

NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE ADMINISTRATION TALK ABOUT, AS I SAID, THESE BUSINESS DEALS, PARTICULARLY OIL DEALS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAILED A VERY, VERY BIG ONE THAT WAS MADE WITH DELSY'S GOVERNMENT AS THE BIGGEST OIL DEAL IN WORLD HISTORY.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND HOW YOU THINK IT COULD ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, HELP RAISE THE STANDARDS OF LIVING FOR PEOPLE THERE.

IT'S THEIR OWN NATURAL RESOURCE.

YEAH.

LIFE FOR ORDINARY VENEZUELANS SINCE THE 3rd OF JANUARY, SINCE THE U. S. INTERVENTION THAT REMOVED MADURO FROM POWER, IT GOT WORSE.

IT'S NOT TRUE DONALD TRUMP SAYS THEY'RE DANCING IN THE STREETS.

IF THEY'RE DANCING IN THE STREETS IT'S FROM FURY AND INFLATION BECAUSE INFLATION REMAINS AT SEVERAL HUNDRED PERCENT A YEAR.

SALARY, WAGES ARE ABSURDLY LOW.

YOU CAN'T LIVE ON THEM.

PUBLIC SERVICES ARE IN A TERRIBLE STATE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE PROTESTING MOST ABOUT RIGHT NOW IS THE POWER CUTS.

THE IRONY IS AS THE ECONOMY DOES START TO GROW, THAT IS THE OIL PRODUCTION STARTS TO INCREASE, THE IMPACTS OF THAT ON ORDINARY PEOPLE IS NOT POSITIVE, IT'S NEGATIVE, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING EVER MORE LENGTHY AND FREQUENT POWER CUTS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE ANGER.

IF PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR AND MARCO RUBIO WERE TWO OF THE MOST POPULAR POLITICIANS IN VENEZUELA WITHOUT BEING HERE, I KNOW THAT'S NOT THE CASE THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER, A LOT OF FRUSTRATION THAT PROMISES WERE MADE THAT EVERYTHING WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MUCH BETTER FROM THE 3rd OF JANUARY, AND OF COURSE IT ISN'T HAPPENING FOR NOW.

TO THE EXTENT IT MAY HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE, THAT SEEMS A VERY LONG WAY FOR MOST ORDINARY VENEZUELANS.

AND HOW DO YOU ASSESS THESE OIL DEALS?

SOME OF THE INFORMATION WE HAVE FROM U. S. OFFICIALS IS THIS BIG ONE GIVES WASHINGTON A 35% STAKE IN A COMPANY THAT WOULD OPERATE 17 OF VENEZUELA'S OIL FIELDS.

AND PATIENTLY A 100-YEAR LEASE.

IS THAT ACCURATE?

WELL, NO, IT'S NOT ACCURATE.

ALMOST NOTHING OF WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID WAS ACCURATE.

IT'S NOT A 100-YEAR LEASE.

THAT'S SOCIALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN VENEZUELA.

IN VENEZUELA, THE OIL FIELDS EXIST.

THERE AREN'T 65 BILLION RECOVERABLE OIL.

IT'S PROBABLY CONSIDERABLY LESS.

THERE ARE MANY BIG QUESTIONS.

THE DEAL IS NOT PUBLIC.

WE DON'T KNOW THE TERMS OF IT.

IT'S A DEAL WITH A COMPANY RUN BY A GENTLEMAN WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED IN MANY DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS, INCLUDING THE U. S. FOR ALLEGED MONEYLAUNDERING AND CORRUPTION.

IT'S NOT CLEAR WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING TO COME FROM TO DEVELOP THESE 17 FIELDS MOST OF WHICH ARE VERY UNDERDEVELOPED ALREADY OR SIMPLY GREENFIELD SITES WHERE IN ORDER TO BEGIN PUMPING OIL, YOU'D FIRST HAVE TO BUILD A ROAD TO THE PLACE WHERE THE CONCESSION IS LOCATED, EVEN BEFORE YOU START TO BUILD THE OIL INFRASTRUCTURE, THE HOUSING FOR WORKERS AND SO ON.

SO TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE NEEDED.

NOW THAT, THE COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE IT.

THE U. S. HAS SAID IT'S NOT GOING PROVIDE IT.

SO UP TO NOW, WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT MONEY IS GOING TO COME FROM.

AND JUST VERY QUICKLY, BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS ALSO LOOKING TO CUBA, AND AGAIN, SECRETARY RUBIO ISSUED PRETTY MUCH AN ULTIMATUM TO HAVANA, IF YOU DON'T DO THE REFORMS WE WANT, YOU'LL FACE CONSEQUENCES.

EVERYBODY SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS BEING PLANNED IN CUBA?

YEAH, IT'S HARD TO SAY, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A DELSY IN CUBA.

WHAT THEY DID IN VENEZUELA IS NOT GOING TO WORK IN CUBA.

THE REGIME IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF REGIME.

I DON'T THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO TAKE ON ANOTHER MAJOR FOREIGN POLICY CHALLENGE.

AND LET'S FACE IT, CUBA IS ONLY 19 MILES FROM THE SHORE OF THE UNITED STATES.

HE HAS NOT DEALT WITH IRAN.

HE'S NOT FINISHED THAT.

SO WHILST THERE IS CLEARLY A DESIRE TO TURN CUBA INTO A U. S. SATELLITE AGAIN AND FOR BUSINESS PEOPLE, BOTH CUBAN AMERICANS AND OTHER AMERICANS WHO WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO GO INTO CUBA AND INVEST AND TURN THE COUNTRY AROUND OF COURSE ECONOMICALLY, THE POLITICS OF THAT ARE NOT CLEAR AT ALL.

AND FOR NOW I DON'T THINK WE REALLY KNOW.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD GO BADLY WRONG.

ALL RIGHT.

INDEED.

OKAY.

PHIL GUNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> NOW, THE JOURNALIST NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, FOUNDER OF THE 1619 PROJECT, SPENT HER CAREER REPORTING ON INEQUALITY.

SO WHEN IT CAME TIME TO SEND HER OWN CHILD TO SCHOOL, SHE AND HER HUSBAND CHOSE TO LIVE BY WHAT SHE REPORTS.

THEY ENROLLED NAJYA IN A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK AND LATINO SCHOOL IN BROOKLYN.

AND SHE WROTE ABOUT THEIR DECISION IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE.

WELL, NOW NAJYA IS A YOUNG ADULT, AND SHE HAS HER OWN THOUGHTS ABOUT THEIR DECISION.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES ABOUT HER CHOICES AND NAJYA'S RESPONSE.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

NIKOLE HANNAH- JONES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SO FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK, YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT RACE, EQUALITY, INEQUALITY FOR SOME TIME NOW, REALLY FOR MUCH OF YOUR CAREER.

SO TEN YEARS AGO, YOU WROTE ABOUT YOURSELF.

YOU TURNED THE LENSED ON YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE DECISION YOU MADE, YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MADE TO SEND YOUR DAUGHTER NAJYA TO A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SCHOOL, I GUESS A HIGH POVERTY SCHOOL.

COULD YOU JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FIRST OF ALL WHAT DROVE THAT DECISION?

SO, I MEAN, I WOULD MORE APTLY DESCRIBE THE SCHOOL AS A RACIALLY AND SOCIAL ECONOMICALLY SEGREGATED ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN NEW YORK CITY IN BROOKLYN.

AND I BEGAN MY JOURNALISTIC CAREER COVERING SCHOOLS IN DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA.

SO IN MY KIND OF FORMATIVE YEARS AS A JOURNALIST, I WAS WRITING ABOUT SCHOOL SEGREGATION, SCHOOL INEQUALITY, AND REALLY THE FUTILITY OF THINKING THAT WE COULD JUST TEST AND PUT HIGH EXPECTATIONS ON SCHOOLS WHERE NINE OUT OF TEN CHILDREN LIVED IN POVERTY, WHERE THEY OFTEN DIDN'T GET THE BEST AND MOST RIGOROUS INSTRUCTION, AND SO I BEGAN TO REALLY THINK DEEPLY ABOUT NOT JUST THE STRUCTURES OF INEQUALITY, BUT THE CHILDREN WHO WERE IN THESE SCHOOLS WHO HAD BEEN PROMISED THAT EDUCATION WAS GOING TO BE THE GREAT EQUALIZER AND YET WERE IN FACT FACING A SYSTEM OF EDUCATION THAT WAS ONLY CEMENTING THEIR DISADVANTAGE.

SO, YOU KNOW, FAST FORWARD 15 YEARS OR SO, MY DAUGHTER, WE WERE IN NEW YORK.

WE MOVED TO NEW YORK WHEN MY DAUGHTER WAS 1.

MY DAUGHTER WAS 4 YEARS OLD, AND THE MAYOR HAD JUST IMPLEMENTED OUR FIRST CITYWIDE PRE- K, UNIVERSAL PRE-K.

AND WE WERE LOOKING FOR A SCHOOL.

AND I HAD DECIDED IN MY OWN HEAD PRETTY EARLY ON THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US TO LIVE OUR VALUES, THAT I HAD WATCHED THROUGH YEARS AND YEARS OF REPORTING ON SCHOOL SEGREGATION, THOSE WHO ADVOCATED ON BEHALF OF THE KIDS IN THOSE SCHOOLS, THOSE WHO OH POSED SEGREGATION, THOSE WHO WROTE ABOUT THE SYSTEMS OF SEGREGATION, WHEN IT CAME TO THEIR OWN CHOICES FOR THEIR KIDS, THEY ACTUALLY MADE CHOICES THAT BENEFITTED FROM THAT SEGREGATION AND INEQUALITY.

SO I JUST MADE UP MY MIND REALLY EVEN BEFORE I HAD MY OWN CHILD THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO DO THAT WHEN IT CAME TO IT.

SO THAT'S WHY WE CHOSE TO ENROLL OUR DAUGHTER IN THE SCHOOL THAT WE WERE IN, UNDERSTANDING THAT BOTH SEGREGATION IS STRUCTURAL.

IT'S CREATED AND MAINTAINED THROUGH POLICY, BUT THAT DIDN'T ABSOLVE INDIVIDUALS OF THE CHOICES THAT WE MADE FOR OUR OWN KIDS.

I WASN'T PLANNING ON WRITING ABOUT IT.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS AS WE WERE IN THIS SCHOOL, THE SECOND YEAR, OUR SCHOOL BECAME EMBROILED IN ITS OWN INTEGRATION BATTLE.

AND IT MADE KIND OF NATIONAL NEWS BECAUSE BROOKLYN HAS THIS REPUTATION OF COURSE FOR BEING VERY PROGRESSIVE, AND FOLKS ARE LOOK AT THIS PROGRESSIVE CITY WITH THESE PARENTS WHO DON'T WANT INTEGRATION FOR THEIR KIDS.

SO IT REALLY BECAME KIND OF UNAVOIDABLE.

I FELT LIKE I HAD TO WRITE ABOUT IT.

SO WHAT WAS THE REACTION?

THAT PIECE WAS 10,000 WORDS ON SCHOOL SEGREGATION.

AND I HAD NO IDEA IF PEOPLE WERE GOING TO READ IT, IF IT WAS GOING TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE.

BUT MY GOD, DID IT EVER.

UP UNTIL THE 1619 PROJECT, I HAD NEVER HAD THAT SORT OF RESPONSE TO ANY OF MY JOURNALISM.

AND NOT ONLY DID PEOPLE RESPOND TO IT, BUT PEOPLE STARTED TO MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES FOR THEIR KIDS' EDUCATION BASED ON THIS PIECE.

AND WE SAW, YOU KNOW, AN ENTIRE KIND OF RESURGENCE OF INTEGRATION MOVEMENTS BOTH IN NEW YORK CITY AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND AN ISSUE THAT HAD BEEN KIND OF CONSIDERED SETTLED OR WE HAD GIVEN UP ON IT, WE HAD THROWN OUR HANDS UP, SUDDENLY WAS BEING TALKED ABOUT AGAIN.

THAT TO ME IS JOURNALISM AT THE HEIGHT OF ITS POWER.

AS I RECALL, THERE WAS SOME NEGATIVITY AS WELL.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO JUST THOUGHT THAT YOU WERE CRAZY.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

OF COURSE.

I MEAN, I DON'T AN AMBITIOUS WORK WHO DOESN'T HAVE PEOPLE THAT FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW, THE SAME RESPONSE THAT I'M HERE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT TODAY.

YEAH.

I CERTAINLY SAW SOME OF THAT BACK THEN YOU KNOW, THE SAME ARGUMENTS, WHY WOULD YOU SACRIFICE YOUR CHILD FOR AN IDEA?

YOU'RE EXPERIMENTING WITH YOUR CHILD FOR AN IDEA.

THERE WAS DEFINITELY SOME OF THAT.

IT WASN'T MOST OF THE RESPONSE, BUT THAT WAS THE RESPONSE, OF COURSE.

IN YOUR LATEST PIECE, YOU BRING US UP TO DATE ON WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THOSE TEN YEARS.

UH- HUH.

BOTH STRUCTURALLY AND WITH YOUR DAUGHTER'S EDUCATION.

HOW WOULD YOU SUMMARIZE THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU HAD THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT IN YOUR SECOND PIECE?

IT WAS A HARROWING EXPERIENCE.

MY DAUGHTER AND ALL THE OTHER CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOLS WHERE SHE ATTENDED EXPERIENCED EXACTLY WHAT I HAD DOCUMENTED THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE CAREER.

AS I SAY IN THE PIECE, WE DIDN'T GO INTO THIS WITH NAIVETE, AND YET STILL MANAGED TO FEEL CRUSHED BY THE SYSTEMS OF INEQUALITY THAT CREATED THESE TYPE OF SCHOOLS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS DEVASTATING MOMENT WHEN SHE WAS IN THE FOURTH GRADE.

YOU GET HER MATH WORK BACK AND YOU DISCOVER THAT ALMOST EVERY ANSWER IS WRONG.

AND THEN THE TEACHER, PART OF THE REASON IT'S WRONG IS THE TEACHER HADN'T BEEN CHECKING IT.

AND YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND CONSIDER PULLING HER OUT THEN, BUT INSTEAD YOU FOUGHT FOR HELP FOR THE WHOLE CLASS.

THIS KIND OF PATTERN REPLICATED ITSELF THROUGHOUT SOME OF THE ADMINISTRATORS WERE UNRESPONSIVE.

SOME OF THE TEACHERS WERE INCOMPETENT.

THERE WERE CLASSES SHE WAS IN WITH WHERE THE TEACHER'S OWN ATTENDANCE WAS SPORADIC.

IT'S ONE THING AFTER ANOTHER.

AND YOUR DAUGHTER AT ONE POINT STARTS LOOKING UP THE SCORES AND HOW THE SCHOOL IS VIEWED AND WHAT THE STATISTICS ARE.

AND SHE SAYS YOU PUT ME IN A BAD SCHOOL.

UH-HUH.

WOULD YOU JUST DESCRIBE, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, WHAT THAT WAS LIKE FOR YOU.

IT WAS A RECKONING I KNEW WAS GOING TO COME.

I MEAN THAT'S --I, AGAIN, IF ANYBODY IS CLEAR-EYED ABOUT WHAT WE WERE GOING TO BE FACING, IT'S SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THESE SCHOOLS FOR 20 YEARS AND HAS DOCUMENTED THEM.

I ALWAYS KNEW THAT MY DAUGHTER WAS GOING TO ONE DAY ASK US ABOUT OUR CHOICES.

NOW I ALSO HOPED HAVING BEEN IN MY HOUSEHOLD AND UNDERSTOOD OUR VALUES THAT MAYBE SHE MIGHT UNDERSTAND WHY WE MADE THE CHOICES, BUT SHE DIDN'T.

SHE WAS 12 YEARS OLD, AND 12-YEAR-OLDS CENTER THEMSELVES AS THEY SHOULD.

AND SHE STRONGLY DISAGREED.

SHE FELT SHE DESERVED A BETTER EDUCATION THAN SHE RECEIVED, AND SHE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW WE COULD HAVE RESOURCES AND NOT GIVE HER THAT.

AND SO, OF COURSE THE PIECE IS VERY HONESTLY GRAPPLING WITH THAT TRUTH THAT WE MADE CHOICES THAT WE FELT WERE FOR THE COLLECTIVE AND COMMON GOOD.

WE TRIED TO LIVE OUR VALUES, AND THAT MY DAUGHTER BORE A COST FOR THAT, AND THAT SHE CONFRONTED US ABOUT BEARING A COST FOR THAT.

SO FAST FORWARD, YOU SAID LOOK, YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MADE THE DECISION FOR HER EARLIER SCHOOL YEARS.

BUT FOR HIGH SCHOOL YOU LET HER CHOOSE.

AND SHE CHOSE A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE.

SHE CHOSE A COMPETITIVE I GUESS A SELECTIVE SCHOOL WHERE THE DEMOGRAPHICS ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR HER?

YOU KNOW, 12, IF ANYBODY HAS PARENTED A TEENAGER, YOU KNOW THAT THAT'S THE AGE WHERE THEY REALLY TRY TO SEEK AUTONOMY FROM THEIR PARENTS.

THEY WANT TO CREATE THEIR OWN IDENTITIES, THEIR OWN VALUE SYSTEMS.

THEY OFTEN TELL YOU EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE DONE IS WRONG.

SO SHE WAS CREATING THAT IDENTITY.

THOSE ARE YOUR VALUES, BUT THIS IS WHAT I WANT.

AND I HAD TO RESPECT THAT.

I FELT SHE WAS OLD ENOUGH THAT SHE COULD PICK WHAT SHE SAW FOR HERSELF.

SO SHE WENT ON A PROCESS OF DISCOVERY.

SHE RESEARCHED SCHOOLS, AND YEAH, SHE CHOSE A SCHOOL THAT WAS OPPOSITE IN EVERY WAY OF WHAT SHE HAD EXPERIENCED PRE-K THROUGH EIGHTH GRADE.

AND INITIALLY IT WAS A STRUGGLE FOR HER.

THIS WAS A SCHOOL THAT HAD A BLACK MINORITY IN THE SCHOOL WHERE A LOT OF KIDS ARE WEALTHIER THAN SHE IS.

AND CULTURALLY, IT WAS HARD, AND ACADEMICALLY, IT WAS HARD.

SHE HAD NOT RECEIVED THE SAME ACADEMIC PREPARATION AS MANY OF HER CLASSMATES.

SHE WAS GETTING LOTS OF HOMEWORK FOR THE FIRST TIME.

SHE HADN'T REALLY DEVELOPED STUDY SKILLS.

SINCE THEN I'VE TALKED TO LATT OF HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATORS WHO SAY THAT'S VERY COMMON FOR NINTH GRADERS IN GENERAL, NOT JUST NINTH GRADERS WHO HAVE COME OUT OF HIGHER POVERTY SCHOOLS.

SO SHE HAD SOME CATCHING UP TO DO.

AND SHE HAD SOME CULTURAL ADJUSTMENTS TO MAKE.

AND IN FACT, WITHIN THE FIRST FEW WEEKS, SHE TOLD ME SHE WANTED TO TRANSFER OUT OF THE SCHOOL, THAT CULTURALLY, SHE JUST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE AS BLACK GIRL THAT SHE FIT IN THE SCHOOL.

SHE WANTED TO GO TO A SELECTIVE HIGH ACHIEVING BLACK HIGH SCHOOL IN BROOKLYN.

AND I WOULDN'T ALLOW HER TO DO THAT.

I FELT SHE HAD MADE HER CHOICE.

SHE HAD DONE THE RESEARCH, AND SHE ALSO WAS GOING TO NEED TO HAVE THIS EXPERIENCE, THAT ALL OF THESE EXPERIENCES ARE LEARNING EXPERIENCES.

THEY BUILD RESILIENCE.

SO SHE STAYED.

WE WERE ABLE TO GET HER THE ACADEMIC HELP SHE NEEDED TO CATCH UP.

NOW SHE'S IN HER JUNIOR YEAR, AND SHE'S ABSOLUTELY THRIVING THERE.

AND SHE TOLD ME THIS SCHOOL WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR HER.

AND THAT I HAVE TO AGREE IT WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR HER.

IT WASN'T THE CHOICE I WOULD HAVE MADE FOR HER, BUT IT WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR HER.

I HAVE TO SAY SHE IS HER MOTHER'S DAUGHTER, BECAUSE SHE MADE UP HER MIND AND SHE PURSUED IT.

SHE DID.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY HER SCHOOL, HER INITIAL SCHOOLING EXPERIENCE WAS AS INADEQUATE AS IT TURNED OUT TO BE?

WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHY IT IS THAT THE SYSTEM REMAINS THE WAY IT IS?

WE CLEARLY DO NOT VALUE EDUCATION AND EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES AS A SOCIETY FOR BLACK CHILDREN, AND ESPECIALLY POOR BLACK CHILDREN LIKE WE DO FOR OTHERS.

SO THERE'S CLEARLY NOTHING WRONG WITH BLACK KIDS BEING IN SCHOOL TOGETHER.

THERE IS NOTHING INHERENT ABOUT SITTING NEXT TO WHITE CHILDREN THAT MAKES BLACK KIDS SMART.

WHAT IT DOES, THOUGH, GIVES THEM ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES WE GUARANTEE FOR THOSE KIDS AND THAT WE WON'T FOR OUR OWN KIDS.

SO WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS YEAH, WE HAVE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS IN MANY ASPECTS OF CIVIL RIGHTS SINCE BROWN V BOARD WAS DECIDED, SINCE THE 1960s.

BUT THE ONE -- THE TWO AREAS ACTUALLY THAT WE'VE MADE THE LEAST PROGRESS IS HOUSING AND SCHOOLS.

IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT THE AVERAGE BLACK PERSON STILL LIVES IN AND THE SCHOOLS THAT THE TYPICAL BLACK STUDENT ATTENDS, THEY REMAIN THE MOST SEGREGATED GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY BOTH ECONOMICALLY AND RACIALLY.

SO THAT'S WHY WE SEE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN SCHOOLS.

THAT'S WHY THE DEMAND FOR INTEGRATION HAS REALLY ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT WE DON'T VALUE BLACK CHILDREN ENOUGH TO RESOURCE THEM.

SO I'M GRATEFUL THAT YOU'RE ASKING THIS QUESTION BECAUSE I REALLY CAME INTO THIS INTERVIEW DETERMINED LIKE NOT TO GO THROUGH MY PARENTING CHOICES.

THERE IS 8,000 WORDS IN AN ESSAY.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY WE MADE THE CHOICES WE MADE, MY CHILD IS ONE CHILD.

WE SHARED THE PERSONAL STORY OF THIS ONE CHILD TO ILLUMINATE THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF DEVASTATION AND INEQUALITY THAT SCHOOL CHILDREN EVERY DAY WHO REMAIN FACELESS IN THE DISCOURSE EXPERIENCE.

THERE WERE 300 OTHER KIDS IN MY DAUGHTER'S SCHOOLS WHO SUFFERED THE SAME OR WORSE EDUCATION AS MY DAUGHTER DID.

SO I TELL THE STORY OF NAJYA SO THAT WE CAN CARE ABOUT ALL THOSE KIDS, SO WE CAN SEE ALL OF THOSE KIDS, RIGHT.

MY PRIVILEGED CHILD SAYS TO ME I NEVER GOT THE EDUCATION THAT I WANTED.

AND I'M LIKE WHEN SHE SAYS THAT, SHE IS SPEAKING FOR ALL THOSE OTHER KIDS.

WE'RE ARGUING ABOUT WHY WOULD I CHOOSE TO PUT MY CHILD IN THAT SCHOOL.

WHAT WE NEED TO BE ARGUING ABOUT IS WHY DO WE ALLOW THAT EDUCATION FOR ALL THOSE KIDS IN THAT SCHOOL WHEN WE HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO BETTER.

WHY ARE YOU SO CONVINCED THAT IT'S RACE AS OPPOSED TO POVERTY THAT'S THE DRIVER HERE?

BECAUSE I THINK SOME PEOPLE MIGHT ARGUE THAT POOR WHITE KIDS ARE GETTING AN EQUALLY RAW DEAL IN THESE UNDERRESOURCED SCHOOLS.

SO THAT'S MY QUESTION TO YOU.

IS IT REALLY ABOUT RACE OR IS IT REALLY ABOUT POVERTY?

THIS IS EASY FOR ME TO ANSWER.

IT'S BOTH.

SO POVERTY IN AMERICA IS RACIALIZED.

THE EXPERIENCE OF POVERTY IN AMERICA IS NOT THE SAME BASED ON YOUR RACE.

AND HOW DO WE KNOW THIS?

SO WE CAN LOOK AT THE DATA.

THE TYPICAL LOW INCOME WHITE STUDENT ACTUALLY ATTENDS A MIDDLE CLASS SCHOOL.

THE TYPICAL LOW INCOME WHITE PERSON IN AMERICA ACTUALLY LIVES IN A NEIGHBORHOOD OF HIGHER INCOME THAN THEY HAVE.

NOW THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE FOR BLACK FOLKS.

THE TYPICAL MIDDLE CLASS BLACK PERSON, BLACK FAMILY LIVES IN A LOWER INCOME NEIGHBORHOOD, INCOME LOWER THAN THEIR INCOME.

AND THE TYPICAL MIDDLE CLASS BLACK STUDENT ACTUALLY ATTENDS A HIGH POVERTY SCHOOL.

SO THIS IS HOW WE KNOW THAT IT'S NOT SIMPLY ABOUT THE INCOME OF THE FAMILY.

IT'S ABOUT THE RACE AND THE INCOME OF THE FAMILY.

AND ONE EXERCISE THAT I OFTEN ASK PEOPLE TO DO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THIS, IF I WANT TO THINK ABOUT AN AREA OF WHITE CONCENTRATED POVERTY, WE ALWAYS NAME THE SAME PLACE, APPALACHIA.

RIGHT.

IF I WANT TO TALK ABOUT AN AREA OF CONCENTRATED BLACK POVERTY, I CAN GIVE YOU AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF CITIES.

EVERY CITY, RIGHT.

MOST RURAL AREAS.

SO IT IS TRUE THAT LOWER INCOME STUDENTS IN GENERAL ARE NOT RECEIVING THE SAME QUALITY OF EDUCATION AS HIGHER INCOME PEOPLE.

BUT IN THE PUBLIC SYSTEM, WE'RE ACTUALLY NOT SEEING THESE HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF WHITE POVERTY.

THOSE KIDS ARE ACTUALLY GETTING A PRETTY TYPICAL EDUCATION WITH THEIR HIGHER INCOME WHITE COUNTERPARTS.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE FOR BLACK STUDENTS OF ALMOST ANY INCOME OTHER THAN UPPER INCOME.

SO NOW THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN YOUR SECOND PIECE, ALSO AN ENORMOUS REACTION TO THAT.

YES.

WHERE ARE WE?

I KNOW YOU GOT A HUGE REACTION TO YOUR PIECE, BUT DO YOU SEE ANY REACTION TO THE POINT THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE?

SO HERE WE ARE IN NEW YORK CITY.

ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE AND PROGRESSIVE CITIES IN THE COUNTRY, BUT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE ONE OF THE MOST SEGREGATED AND UNEQUAL BOTH RACIALLY AND ECONOMICALLY CITIES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

WE HAVE A SOCIALIST --A DEMOCRATIC CIALIST AS OUR MAYOR.

HE RAN ON TRYING TO REFORM SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE CAUSED SO MUCH SEGREGATION IN THE SCHOOLS.

HE SAYS HE IS HERE TO CHANGE THE CONDITIONS, THE MATERIAL CONDITIONS OF THE WORKING CLASS.

SO NOW IT'S TIME TO SEE WHAT WILL BE THE RESPONSE.

WE HAVE TO HAVE DIFFERENT POLICY.

WE HAVE TO HAVE A POLICY OF INTEGRATION AND EQUALITY THAT IS NOT ABOUT LANGUAGE, THAT IS NOT ABOUT RHETORIC, BUT IS ABOUT THE CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THESE SCHOOLS EVERY SINGLE DAY EXPERIENCING WHAT MY DAUGHTER EXPERIENCED, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE PARENTS WHO CAN PULL THEM OUT, WHO CAN PAY FOR PRIVATE TUTORING.

SO I HOPE THAT THIS PIECE, WHICH HAS GONE VIRAL IN EVERY WAY THAT A PIECE CAN GO VIRAL, THAT HAS PROVOKED A LOT OF OUTRAGE ABOUT ME AND MY HUSBAND AND ALSO ABOUT THE SYSTEM, THAT THIS WILL LEAD TO ANOTHER GALVANIZING MOMENT WHERE WE DEMAND MORE OF OUR LEADERS SO THAT WE CAN PRODUCE MORE FOR OUR CHILDREN.

WHETHER WE WANT TO BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THEY ARE ALL OF OUR CHILDREN, AND OUR SOCIETY BEARS THE IMPACT OF CHILDREN WHO ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TRANSCEND THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES AND TO LIVE UP TO THEIR HIGHEST AMBITION.

WE CAN DO BETTER, RIGHT.

I MEAN, THIS WAS THE ARGUMENT OF MY FIRST ESSAY.

IT'S BEEN THE ARGUMENT OF ALL OF MY REPORTING ON THIS.

NOTHING IS NATURAL ABOUT THESE SYSTEMS OF INEQUALITY.

WE CHOOSE THEM.

WE STRUCTURE THEM IN.

SO WHAT THAT MEANS WE CAN STRUCTURE THEM OUT, IF WE CHOOSE THAT.

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALK WITH ME.

THANK YOU.

> AND YES, WE CAN ALL ALWAYS DO BETTER, AT LEAST TRY.

AND FINALLY, A NEW STANDARD FOR CACOPHONY.

TWO BRAZILIAN CONTENDERS FOR THE TITLE OF WORLD'S LOUDEST BIRD.

FIRST, A RED-THROATED BELLBIRD WITH THE CALL LIKE THE BLAST OF A DISTRESS SIGNAL.

[ BIRD CALLING ] THEN THE REGULAR-LEGGED SERAIMA WHO SOUNDS LIKE A SEAGULL BEING TICKLED, MAYBE.

THIS VIDEO IS FROM A WISCONSIN WILDLIFE PARK.

[ BIRD CALLING ] BOTH BIRDS HAVE A CALL THAT MAY EXCEED 120 DECIBELS, LOUDER THAN A JACKHAMMER.

FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY PERSPECTIVE, IT IS NOT CLEAR WHY THESE BIRDS ARE SO LOUD.

THE BELLBIRD IS POLYAMOROUS, LOOKING FOR AS MANY MATES AS IT CAN FIND WITHIN EARSHOT, WHILE THE SERAIMA ARE STRICTLY MONOGAMOUS.

IN FACT, MALES AND FEMALES ENJOY SINGING DUETS.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGNED UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.