Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW TO THE UNITED STATES AND POLITICS AND A DATE THAT STILL REVERBERATES, JANUARY 6th, 2021. THE FINDINGS OF A TEN-MONTH INVESTIGATION INTO THAT DAY'S INSURRECTION AGAINST CONGRESS WILL BE PRESENTED ON THURSDAY. THE FIRST PUBLIC HEARING WILL LIKELY FEATURE VIDEO CLIPS AND SOME OF NEARLY 100 INTERVIEWS THE INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE HAS CONDUCTED. OUR NEXT GUEST HAS DOCUMENTED THE POLITICAL TWISTS AND TURNS OF THE PAST 18 MONTHS IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THIS WILL NOT PASS," JONATHAN MARTIN IS NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" AND IS JOINING WALTER ISAACSON. >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE. JONATHAN MARTIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> YOU AND ALEX BURN HAVE WRITTEN THIS GREAT BOOK, "THIS WILL NOT PASS," THAT HAS REALLY SET THE STAGE FOR THIS WEEK'S HEARINGS ON JANUARY 6th. THE WHOLE THING IS IN THE BOOK. WHAT ARE YOU HOPING THOSE HEARINGS WILL DO? >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME? AND I THINK THE BOOK DOES CAPTURE THE MIND-SET OF THE SENIOR GOP MIND-SET. AND THEIR MIND-SET IS VERY DIFFERENT THEN THAN IT IS NOW. AND WE HAVE KEVIN McCARTHY ON AUDIO TAPE TALKING TO FELLOW HOUSE GOP LEADERS ABOUT HOW QUICKLY THEY CAN GET DONALD TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE. IT'S NOT A DEBATE ABOUT TRUMP'S CULPABILITY ON THE 6th, IT'S AN URGENT QUESTION, OF WHAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT METHOD TO GET TRUMP OUT OF THE PRESIDENCY, BECAUSE HE REPRESENTS A THREAT TO THE CUP. THEY TALK ABOUT THE 25th AMENDMENT, ABOUT, OBVIOUSLY, GOING TO TRUMP AND URGING HIM TO RESIGN. AND WHETHER OR NOT IMPEACHMENT WILL BE CARRIED OUT. AND TO GO TO THAT POINT TO THE END OF 2021 WHEN McCARTHY IS BACK TO MAR-A-LAGO SHOWS YOU HOW THE ARE REPUBLICAN PARTY CAME BACK TO TRUMP. BUT IN THOSE HOURS AND DAYS AFTER THE 6th, THERE WAS NO QUESTION THAT THE SENIOR LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY WANTED TO CUT TIES WITH TRUMP AND WANTED TO CAST HIM OUT IMMEDIATELY. AND I THINK THIS COMMITTEE'S INQUIRY IS GOING TO CAPTURE HOW DIFFERENT THE PARTY'S THINKING WAS IN THE DAYS AFTER THE 6th AND HOW GRIEVOUS THEY BELIEVED THAT TRUMP HAD BEHAVED AND WHAT HE HAD DONE TO THE CAPITOL AND TO THE COUNTRY. >> YOU TALK ABOUT KEVIN McCARTHY BEING AGGRIEVED AND REPORTED THIS AND KEVIN McCARTHY SAID IT WAS TOTALLY FALSE AND YOU HAD MADE IT UP. AND BOOM, YOU POPPED AN AUDIO TAPE THAT PROVED YOU EXACTLY RIGHT. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? WAS THAT SOME SET-UP? YOU KNEW HE WAS GOING TO DENY IT AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO USE THE TAPE? >> WE COULDN'T HAVE PREDICTED HOW MR. McCARTHY WAS GOING TO RESPOND. BUT OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU MAKE AN EMPHATIC AND SWEEPING DENIAL LIKE HE DID, WHILE KNOWING THAT THE REPORTING IS ACCURATE, IT DOES RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR INTEGRITY. AND I THINK KEVIN McCARTHY HAS DONE GRAVE DAMAGE TO HIMSELF IN THE LONG-TERM BY OPENLY LYING ABOUT REPORTING. OBVIOUSLY, WE DID HAVE THE AUDIOTAPES THAT DID PROVE HIM TO BE WRONG. AND HE HAS NOT FACED ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THAT YET, BUT IN THE LONG-TERM, THERE ARE REAL QUESTIONS ABOUT HIM GOING FORWARD, BECAUSE OF HIS DENIALS. NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE MATTER THAT IT RAISES ABOUT HIS INTEGRITY, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT IT RAISED ABOUT HIS POLITICAL JUDGMENT, AS WELL. SORT OF DOING THAT WHEN YOU KNOW THAT WHAT YOU SAID WAS OUT THERE. PEOPLE HEARD IT. I THINK IT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT MAKES PEOPLE IN EVEN HIS OWN PARTY WONDER ABOUT McCARTHY'S CAPACITY. >> WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WAIT A MINUTE. TRUMP JUST A DAY AGO ENDORSED HIM, AGAIN. HE'S GOING TO BE THE LEADER IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, REPUBLICANS, PROBABLY SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE. WHAT YOU SAY SEEMS WRONG. THE REPUBLICANS HAVE RALLIED AROUND HIM, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS DONE THIS. WHY IS THAT? >> I THINK IN THE SHORT-TERM, THERE HAS BEEN SORT OF A RALLY EFFECT, SORT OF, CIRCLE THE WAGONS. LOOK, TRUMP IS NOT EXACTLY A TRUSTED SUPPORTER OF KEVIN McCARTHY OR OF ANYBODY. HE'S NOT KNOWN, WALTER, FOR HIS LOYALTY. AND I THINK, TRUMP, OF COURSE, WANTS TO KEEP McCARTHY CLOSE TO HIM AND LOVES THAT KEVIN McCARTHY SCRAMBLED TO FIX A POLITICAL PROBLEM. McCARTHY GOT TRUMP ON THE PHONE AND TRIED TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT. BUT NONE OF THAT IS A GUARANTEE OF TRUMP'S SUPPORT OVER THE LONG HAUL. I MEAN, I CAN CITE YOU CHAPTER AND VERSE THE PEOPLE THAT TRUMP HAS TURNED ON OVER THE YEARS. AND LOOK, WHEN WE INTERVIEWED DONALD TRUMP FOR THIS BOOK IN THE SPRING OF 2021, WE ASKED HIM ABOUT KEVIN McCARTHY. AN ALLY OF HIS, THEN AND NOW. AND TRUMP SAID THAT McCARTHY HAS AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT HIS ALLIES. SO, LOOK, I THINK IN THE LONG-TERM, YOU CAN'T BANK ON TRUMP SUPPORTING ANYBODY. AND ESPECIALLY IF SOMEBODY IS ON TAPE HAVING CRITICIZED HIM, HE'S NOT GOING TO FORGET THAT. >> YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ENTIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY, ESPECIALLY THE REPUBLICANS IN WASHINGTON. THEY HAD TOTALLY TURNED ON TRUMP, IT SEEMS, FROM YOUR BOOK, ESPECIALLY McCONNELL, ESPECIALLY THE SENATE LEADER McCONNELL. HOW DID THAT CHANGE? >> SURE. SO THIS IS ONE OF THE MIDWEST INTERESTING THINGS IN OUR BOOK. I SAW McCONNELL IN THE CAPITAL, LATE ON THE NIGHT OF JANUARY 6th. AND McCONNELL TOLD ME HE FELT EXHILARATED FROM THE EVENTS OF DAY. McCONNELL SAID TO ME, TRUMP PUT A GUN TO HIS HEAD AND PULLED THE TRIGGER. HE'S TOTALLY DISCREDITED. AND THAT CAPTURES THE MIND-SET OF THE HIGHEST RANKS OF THE PARTY THAT DAY. THEY BELIEVED THAT THIS WAS "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" ALL OVER AGAIN. THERE'S NO WAY THAT TRUMP CAN RECOVER FROM THIS AND WE AS A PARTY CAN WASH OUR HANDS OF HIM AND MOVE ON. AND WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS AFTER THAT IS McCONNELL AND McCARTHY REALIZE THAT THEIR VOTERS DON'T WANT TO MOVE ON, AND THEIR VOTERS, FRANKLY, AREN'T TERRIBLY BOTHERED BY TRUMP'S CONDUCT. SO THEY HAVE TO, IN McCONNELL'S CASE, GO MUTE, OR IN McCARTHY'S CASE, RE-EMBRACE TRUMP. AND THAT'S THE REAL COMEDOWN WE CHRONICLE IN THIS BOOK, THIS GREAT DEFERENCE OF REPUBLICAN LEADERS TO THEIR VOTERS WHEN IT COMES TO DONALD TRUMP. AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT HAS SUSTAINED TRUMP FOR SEVEN YEARS IN AMERICAN POLITICS, THE ELITES OF THE PARTY BEING UNCERTAIN ABOUT OR DOWNRIGHT SCARED OF THEIR OWN VOTERS. >> YOU TALK ABOUT SPEAKING TO SENATOR McCONNELL ON THE EVENING OF JANUARY 6th, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE CAPITOL. YOU WERE IN THE CAPITOL FOR THAT ENTIRE DAY. TELL ME, WHAT WAS IT LIKE? >> SURE. IT'S KIND OF LIKE BEING AT A SUBMARINE IN THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN. YOU CAN'T SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE SURFACE, BUT I DIDN'T FULLY APPRECIATE THE SCALE OF THE ATTACK IN THOSE HOURS, BECAUSE WE WERE WATCHING IT ON TV, WE WEREN'T WATCHING IT ON OUR PHONES LIKE EVERYBODY AT HOME WAS. I WAS EVACUATED WITH THE ENTIRE U.S. SNA, VIA THE TUNNEL UNDER THE CAPITOL BUILDING. SO I WAS IN SECLUSION WITH MOST OF THE SENATE. AND I CAN TELL YOU, THERE WAS GREAT ANXIETY THAT DAY, AS WE REPORTED IN THE BOOK, WE HAVE AN ENTIRE CHAPTER IN THE BOOK ON THIS, AMONG THE SENATORS ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY. LINDSEY GRAHAM AT ONE POINT INTERRUPTED A CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER WHO WAS SPEAKING TO THE SENATE, RIGHT TO BRIEF THEM, AND DEMANDED THAT THE CAPITOL POLICE USE ANY MEANS NECESSARY TO RETAKE THE U.S. CAPITOL. ALMOST SHOUTING AT THE POLICE OFFICER. AND THAT SET OFF A BRIEF ALTERCATION BETWEEN GRAHAM AND SOME DEMOCRATIC SENATORS WHO WEREN'T TOO HAPPY ABOUT HIS INTERJECTION. AND I THINK THAT KIND OF ANXIETY QUICKLY BECAME ANGER AT DONALD TRUMP, AGAIN, IN BOTH PARTIES FOR INCITING THIS RIOT. IN FACT, LATER THAT DAY ON THE 6th, LINDSEY GRAHAM GETS THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL FOR TRUMP ON THE PHONE AND SAYS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE TRUMP TELL THESE PEOPLE IN THE CAPITOL TO GO HOME, WE'RE GOING TO CALL FOR THE 25th AMENDMENT. AND I THINK THAT CAPTURES THE SORT OF INTENSITY OF THE ANGER TOWARDS TRUMP THAT DAY. IT WAS BIPARTISAN, AND THERE WAS A SENSE OF, HE'S REALLY GONE TOO FAR THIS TIME. AND THERE WERE REAL CONCERNS ABOUT PHYSICAL SAFETY. WALTER, I CAN RECALL LISA MURKOWSKI, THE SENATOR FROM ALASKA, PUTTING HER ARM THROUGH THE ARM OF ONE OF HER COLLEAGUES, WHO USED TO SERVE IN THE MARINES AND SAYING, I'VE GOT MY MARINE RIGHT HERE, AND HOLDING HIM TIGHT. THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THE AMERICAN SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, TO PUT IT MILDLY, WHERE LAWMAKERS ARE SCARED FOR THEIR LIVES. BUT THAT WAS CERTAINLY THE CASE ON JANUARY 6th. >> ONE OF THE NEWS THAT'S COME OUT MORE RECENTLY, WHAT YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK, BUT EVEN FOR SO, IS DONALD TRUMP'S TREATMENT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, AND ALMOST BEING WILLING TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO HANG HIM. >> TRUMP HAD NO SYMPATHY WHATSOEVER FOR THE PLIGHT OF HIS VICE PRESIDENT, WHO ALONG WITH HIS AND DAUGHTER WERE IN THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th. AND TRUMP WAS STILL MORE FIXATED ON OVERTURNING THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION THAN THE PHYSICAL SAFETY OF HIS OWN VERY LOYAL VP. AND I DON'T THINK THE RELATIONSHIP WILL EVER RECOVER FROM THAT DAY AND TRUMP'S LACK OF CONCERN ABOUT PENCE. HE NEVER CALLED PENCE TO CHECK IN ON HIM. AND THERE'S NOW REPORTING THAT TRUMP WAS HAPPY TO HEAR ABOUT THE CHANTS OF "HANG MIKE PENCE." HE DELIGHTED IN THE PRESSURE BEING INFLICTED ON PENCE AND PENCE'S INNER CIRCLE RECOGNIZED THAT PENCE WAS GOING TO INVITE THREATS TO HIS SAFETY. AND PENCE'S OWN STAFF WARNED THE SECRET SERVICE ABOUT THAT EVENTUALITY. SO, YEAH, WITH I THINK PENCE AND HIS STAFF ARE GOING TO BE KEY PLAYERS IN THIS JANUARY 6th INVESTIGATION, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THEY FEEL SOMEWHAT RADICALIZED, WALTER. YOU KNOW, FOUR YEARS OF LOYALTY BORDERING ON SERVITUDE. AND THAT'S THE REWARD THEY GET, BECAUSE PENCE WON'T OVERTURN THE ELECTION. IT TELLS YOU A LOT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP. AND I THINK FOR PENCE, IT WAS THE MOMENT WHERE HE REALLY DID PUT COUNTRY OVER PARTY. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE FULLY APPRECIATE THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS THAT WE WOULD HAVE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY, IF MIKE PENCE MAKES A DIFFERENT CHOICE ON JANUARY 6th. THE UNCERTAINTY BETWEEN JANUARY 6th AND JANUARY 20th WHEN BIDEN WAS TO BE SWORN IN IF MIKE PENCE FOLDS AND BENDS TO DONALD TRUMP'S PRESSURE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEEPLY, DEEPLY ALARMING AND I THINK REAL CHALLENGE TO FABRIC OF OUR COUNTRY'S DEMOCRACY. >> DO YOU THINK MIKE PENCE WILL RUN FOR PRESIDENT AND DO IT ON THE INTEGRITY THAT HE SHOWED? >> THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION, I THINK HE WANTS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, AND I THINK HE WOULD BE HAPPY TO RUN AGAINST DONALD TRUMP. IN PART BECAUSE OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE. I THINK HE WANTS TO BE SORT OF VINDICATED ABOUT WHAT HE DID ON THE 6th. I INTERVIEWED PENCE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND HE TOLD ME HE TRAVELS THE COUNTRY AND HAS PEOPLE COMING UP TO THANK HIM ALL THE TIME FOR WHAT HE DID ON THE 6th. >> BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND ITS PRIMARIES WILL THANK HIM FOR THIS? >> THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. LOOK, I THINK THAT PENCE WOULD HAVE REAL DIFFICULTY GETTING THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION, WHETHER IT'S AGAINST DONALD TRUMP OR ANYBODY ELSE, IN PART BECAUSE OF TRUMP'S CONTEMPT FOR HIM NOW. I THINK THAT CREATES CHALLENGES FOR PENCE. BUT JUST THE FACT THAT HE WANTS TO RUN AND THERE'S NOW THIS FISSURE BETWEEN HE AND TRUMP REALLY CAPTURES THE EXTRAORDINARY NATURE OF THESE TIMES AND IT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY WE WROTE THIS BOOK ON THE LAST TWO YEARS IN AMERICAN POLITICS. IT'S UNPRECEDENTED TO THINK OF A FORMER VP RUNNING AGAINST THE PERSON WHO PUT HIM ON THE TICKET A MERE 12 YEAR TO DATE LATER. >> BUT EVEN MORE ASTOUNDING IS WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND HOW UNPRECEDENTED THAT WAS. AND HOW EVERYBODY FELL IT THAT DAY. DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS. AND YET, YOU SAY, THIS WILL NO PASS. AND IN SOME WAYS, IT HAS PASSED. THE MOST AMAZING CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS WE'VE HAD IN 50 YEARS HAS PASSED. DO YOU THINK THE HEARINGS THAT START THIS WEEK COULD REIGNITE INTEREST AND PERHAPS OUTRAGE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR DEMOCRACY. >> I THINK IT WILL DEFINITELY REIGNITE INTEREST. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT OUTRAGE. BECAUSE I THINK THE PEOPLE THAT WERE OUTRAGED AFTER THE 6th AND STILL ARE PROBABLY DON'T NEED TO BE REMINDED. AND I'M NOT SURE THOSE THAT HAVE MOVED ON CAN FULLY BE "A," TOUCHED, AND "B" OUTRAGED. MAYBE THEM BE TOUCHED BY IT. I JUST THINK THAT AMERICANS HAVE A CAPACITY TO MOVE ON AND THEY FOCUS ON THE HERE AND NOW OF THEIR OWN LIVES MORE THAN THE HEALTHY AND THE DEMOCRACY OR WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th. I THINK THAT THAT JUST SORT OF COMMENTARY ON WHO WE ARE, AS A COUNTRY, I'M NOT TERRIBLY SURPRISED BY IT, ESPECIALLY, WALTER, IN THIS VERY POLARIZED MOMENT. WE'RE IN OUR TRIPLE CAMPS, AND YOU THINK, BECAUSE OF THAT SILOING THAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY, IT DOES MAKE IT HARDER TO SUM AN OUTRAGE. IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT MOMENTUM FROM WHEN NIXON WAS PRESIDENT. AND THAT'S WHY WE CALLED THE BOOK "THIS WILL NOT PASS," BECAUSE WHAT WON'T PASS IS THIS TRIBALISM, IS THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE SORT OF LOCKED IN RED VERSUS BLUE, IN SORT OF COLD WAR FOR YEARS TO COME. JUST THINK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOW AND THE LAST PRESIDENT WHO LEFT OFFICE IN DISGRACE RICHARD NIXON. THE ITEM OF REPUBLICAN LEADERS IN THE CONGRESS IN THE 1970s, YOU KNOW, TREKKING TO SAN CLEMENTE, TO KISS NIXON'S RING AND TRY TO GET NIXON'S BLESSING FOR THEIR PRIMARIES IN 1976 WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE, BECAUSE NIXON WAS A PRAIA. HE WAS TAINTED BY WATERGATE. HIS OWN PARTY DIDN'T WANT TO TOUCH HIM. I THINK NOW WE HAVE SUCH DIFFERENT INFORMATION SYSTEMS, THE IDEA THAT TRUMP WOULD SORT OF COLLECTIVELY BE BANISHED FROM THE COUNTRY IS JUST NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN, NO MATTER HIS CONDUCT, BECAUSE A GOOD CHUNK OF THE COUNTRY IS JUST NEVER GOING TO CARE. >> ONE OF THE STARS OF THIS HEARING, I SUSPECT, IS ALSO ONE OF THE STARS OF YOUR BOOK. AND THAT'S LIZ CHENEY. AND WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE CAN DO. WHAT ARE HER FEELINGS THAT YOU REPORT IN THIS BOOK. AND HOW WILL THAT AFFECT HER ROLE AS THE CO-CHAIRMAN OR VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, AS A REPUBLICAN SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE, WE HAVE FOCUS ON WHAT HAPPENED. >> YEAH, SPEAKING OF BEING RADICALIZED BY THE OF THE 6th, LOOK NO FURTHER THAN LIZ CHENEY. WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT TO NOTE, A DOWN THE LINE CONSERVATIVE. THIS IS WHAT'S SO STRIKING ABOUT THIS ERA, IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BECOME, YOU KNOW, SUCH A PERSONALITY DOMINATED FACTION IN WHICH THE TEST OF LOYALTY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GUNS OR ABORTION RIGHTS OR TAXES OR UNIONS OR REGULATIONS. IT'S ENTIRELY ABOUT FEALTY TO ONE PERSON. SO LIZ CHENEY HASN'T DEVIATED FROM PARTY ORTHODOXY. AND THAT'S WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS MOMENT. IN THE PAST, WE HAVE THESE GRAND CLASHS WITHIN THE TWO PARTIES. IT WAS ALWAYS OVER IDEOLOGY AND IDEAS. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TODAY. YEAH, CHENEY'S GOING TO BE A CENTRAL PLAYER IN THESE HEARINGS. I THINK PELOSI HAS GAINED TRUST IN HER AND I THINK CHENEY WANTS TO USE THIS MOMENT AS KIND OF A CLARION CALL FOR THE COUNTRY. I THINK SHE KNOWS THAT SHE'S IN A TOUGH SPOT POLITICALLY. SHE MAY NOT SURVIVE HER PRIMARY IN AUGUST. MAY NOT BE BACK DONG NEXT YEAR. AND THIS IS HER OPPORTUNITY, HER BEST OPPORTUNITY TO USE THE PLATFORM SHE HAS TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT WHAT SHE THINKS IS THE THREAT DONALD TRUMP STILL POSES TO AMERICA AND THE CONSTITUTION. >> JONATHAN MARTIN, AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU, WALTER.