Amanpour and Company

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE HAVE TO KEEP TRYING, WE HAVE TO TRY TO FIND MY OWN OWN MEANS TO SETTLE THIS PROBLEM HAVE THIS CONFLICT.

>> THE LEBANESE PRESIDENT MAKES A PLEA FOR PENALTIES AS THE MIDDLE EAST WAR THREATENS TO ESCALATE.

ANY EXCLUSIVE CONVERSATION WITH JOSEPH AOUN.

THEN -- >> THE FBI HAS BEEN THE AGENCY IMPACTED THE MOST BY THE ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> MICHEL MARTIN TALKS TO JACQUELINE MAGUIRE AN FBI VETERAN AND PUBLIC CRITIC OF DIRECTOR KASH PATEL'S LEADERSHIP.

?

?

>> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FOR A WHILE, IT LOOKED LIKE THE MIDDLE EAST WAR MIGHT TIP INTO FULL SCALE FIGHTING AGAIN AFTER THE FIRST MAGE EXCHANGE OF FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN SINCE THE APRIL CEASEFIRE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP RESPONDED POSTING, ISRAEL AND IRAN MUST IMMEDIATELY STOP SHOOTING.

TEHRAN ANNOUNCED IT SUSPENDED MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST ISRAEL BUT WARNS THAT STRIKES WILL RESUME IF ATTACKS ON LEBANON CONTINUE.

THEN LESS THAN AN HOUR AFTER THAT, THE ISRAELIS STRUCK A NUMBER OF VILLAGES IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

TRUMP EVEN SAID THAT HE CALLS THE SHOTS, NOT THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL, AND LEBANON HAS BECOME BOTH A POTENTIAL TRIPWIRE AND COLATERAL DAMAGE.

NOW, WHEN I SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT, JOSEPH AOUN, IN BEIRUT ON FRIDAY, HE ADDRESSED THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THE ISRAELI PEOPLE DIRECTLY.

>> I REALLY WANT TO LIVE IN A PERPETUAL WAR?

AREN'T YOU FED UP WITH WAR SINCE 1948.

TO OUR WANT TO REALLY LIVE IN PEACE?

LET'S SIT AND TALK.

>> WE WILL HAVE MORE OF MY EXCLUSIVE CONVERSATION WITH PRESIDENT AOUN IN A MOMENT.

FIRST, NIMROD NOVIK, A VETERAN ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR AND FORMER SENIOR DIPLOMATIC ADVISOR TO THEN-PRIME MINISTER SHIMON PERES.

NIMROD NOVIK, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO HOW DO YOU SORT OF DESCRIBE WHAT JUST HAPPENED OVERNIGHT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS THE AIM?

>> WELL, I WISH MORE OF US WOULD HEED THE REQUEST OF THE PRESIDENT OF LEBANON, QUITE COURAGEOUS, CALLING US TO SIT DOWN AND TALK SERIOUSLY.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS AN EXHIBITION OF IRAN'S BRAVADO, A SENSE OF VINDICTIVENESS.

THE REGIME SURVIVED.

THEREFORE, ASSUMED THAT IT WON.

IT WAS INFLICTED VERY HEAVY PAIN, BUT APPARENTLY THE REGIME IS MORE RESILIENT.

AS LONG AS THE PAIN IS ON THE POPULATION, THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

AND WHAT IRAN IS TRYING TO DO IS REALLY REVERSE ITS HISTORICAL COURSE WHERE HEZBOLLAH AND LEBANON WAS SUPPOSED TO COME TO AID IRAN IF ISRAEL WERE TO STRIKE IT.

NOW THEY REVERSED THE DIRECTION AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TRYING TO DEFEND THEIR REMAINING ASSET IN THE REGION, BUT, AS OUR PRIME MINISTER AND OTHERS HAVE ALREADY SAID, ISRAEL CANNOT ACCEPT THE SITUATION WHERE ISRAEL CANNOT DEFEND ITSELF IN LEBANON BECAUSE IRAN MIGHT STRIKE.

SO HERE WE ARE IN A THREE-WAY CHESS GAME.

>> YES, INDEED.

OF COURSE, WITH ALL THESE CEASEFIRES THAT GET SIGNED LET'S SAY BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON, THE ACTUAL FIGHT IS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH, AND THEY ARE NOT PARTY TO THE CEASEFIRE.

SO IT'S ALL PRETTY DIFFICULT AND STRANGE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT'S GOING TO.

BUT YOU SAID YOU WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD HEED THE WORDS OF PRESIDENT AOUN.

WE WILL GET TO THAT.

WHAT ABOUT HEEDING THE WORDS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP?

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT HE TOLD YOUR PRIME MINISTER NOT TO HIT IRAN, THAT'S A RED LINE, AND CERTAINLY NOT TO HIT BEIRUT.

THAT'S ANOTHER RED LINE.

ISRAEL SEEMED TO AGREE AFTER, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE SHOWDOWN LAST NIGHT.

BUT NONETHELESS, SAYS IT WILL STILL HIT SOUTH LEBANON, SOUTHERN LEBANON.

WHAT, AGAIN, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS BECAUSE WHO IS CALLING THE SHOTS?

>> WELL, MANY IN ISRAEL WONDER HOW DO WE GET TO THIS POINT WHERE ON ISSUES OF NATIONAL SECURITY DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE IN JERUSALEM.

YEAH, YOU POINTED OUT THE SENTIMENT IN THE COUNTRY.

WE ARE AT THE POSITION WHERE DECISIONS ON MAJOR ISSUES ARE MADE IN WASHINGTON.

AND THAT'S A PHENOMENON OF THE LAST COUPLE YEARS NOW.

THE CEASEFIRE IN GAZA WAS IMPOSED BY TRUMP.

VARIOUS CEASEFIRES IN LEBANON WERE IMPOSED BY HIM.

NETANYAHU'S APOLOGIES TO THE -- EMBARRASSING APOLOGIES TO QATAR AFTER ISRAEL STRUCK HAMAS MILITANTS IN HIS WAS ONE.

THERE WAS A SERIES OF EVENTS WHERE THE PRESIDENT REALLY IMPOSED HIS WILL ON THE PRIME MINISTER AND TO MANY OF IT IS PUZZLING.

WHAT IS IT THAT BROUGHT US TO THE POINT - -YEAH?

>> WELL, JUST TO ASK YOU, THAT THAT MEANS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES APPEARS TO WANT TO KEEP SAYING HE WANTS HE IS CLOSE TO GETTING AN END OF WAR OR PEACE DEAL WITH IRAN.

CLEARLY, THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL DOESN'T FEEL THAT WAY.

HE WANTS TO KEEP HAVING THE ABILITY TO BOMB IRAN.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

>> WELL, LOOK, WHEN YOU ENTER A WAR ON THE BASIS OF FLAWED ASSUMPTIONS AND WRONG ANALYSIS, YOU PEND ENDORSEMENT UP WITH A SITUATION WITH NO GOOD OPTIONS.

THE ASSUMPTION THAT LED THE PRIME MINISTER AND AT LEAST TO THE EXTENT IT WAS MADE PUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT AS WELL, WAS THAT THIS WOULD BE A VENEZUELA TAKE TWO.

VERY QUICKLY, REGIME WILL COLLAPSE.

THE BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT WILL BE ELIMINATED.

THE NUCLEAR WEAPON THREAT WOULD BE DEALT WITH FOR ETERNITY.

IRAN'S RELATIONS WITH PROXIES, WITH MILITANT PROXIES IN THE REGION WILL BE --WILL END.

NONE OF WHICH HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.

AND ONE PROBLEM THAT NEVER EXISTED APPROACHED TO TOP THE AGENDA, AND THAT'S THE CLOSURE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, WHICH AFFECTS GLOBAL ECONOMY.

SO, YEAH, YOU ENTERED THE WAR ON THE BASIS OF FALSE ASSUMPTIONS AND TODAY YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD OPTIONS.

I THINK THAT THE ASSUMPTION THAT ISRAEL, EVEN JOINTLY WITH AWESOME AMERICA, CAN OVERNIGHT CHANGE THE REGIME IN IRAN WAS A FANTASY AND WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF EXPECTATIONS UNMET.

>> RIGHT.

SO THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER, WHO IS IN AN ALLIANCE WITH FORMER PRIME MINISTER BENNETT TO CONTEST THE NEXT ROUND OF ELECTIONS, HE HAS SAID THE CURRENT ROUND OF FIGHTING SERVES NO STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM, AND GIVEN EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID ABOUT ENTERING A WAR UNDER FALSE WHATEVER, FALSE ASSUMPTIONS, POOR WAR GAMING, DO YOU THINK IT WOULD RATHER BENEFIT ISRAEL TO TRY TO GET TO AN END TO THIS WAR RATHER THAN KEEP GOING AT IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS NOT THAT I AM OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF A POSSIBLE AGREEMENT.

ITS NOT GOING TO BE A GOOD AGREEMENT.

BUT ANY AGREEMENT THAT PAUSE --STOPS THE FIGHTING, OPENS UP THE HORMUZ STRAIT AND GIVES THE PARTIES THE TIME TO SERIOUSLY NEGOTIATE THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

THE OTHER ISSUES ARE TROUBLING, VERY SERIOUS, BALLISTIC MISSILES, PROXIES AND SO ON.

BUT NONE ARE AS IMPORTANT AS THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

THE NUCLEAR ISSUE IS COMPLICATED AND, THEREFORE, REQUIRES TIME, AND, THEREFORE, A STABLE CEASEFIRE, THE 60 DAYS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS IN MIND, WHICH PROBABLY WILL BE EXTENDED WITH ANOTHER 60, MIGHT GIVE THE BEGINNING OF TIME TO GO NEGOTIATE A VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE THAT TOOK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TWO YEARS TO CONCLUDE.

>> RIGHT.

EXACTLY.

NIMROD NOVIK, AS WE MENTIONED, THERE IS AN ELECTION COMING UP IN YOUR COUNTRY.

POLLS SUGGEST THAT YOUR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS VULNERABLE.

APPARENTLY, ONE POLL INTERNALLY BY THE TIMES OF ISRAEL SHOWED THE PARTIES NOT ALIGNED WITH NETANYAHU COULD GET A MAJORITY IF ELECTIONS WERE HELD TODAY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK A NEW PRIME MINISTER WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY, AND ADDED TO THAT, DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY DANGER THAT NETANYAHU KEEPS USING THIS CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN AS A POLITICAL STRATEGY HEADING INTO THESE ELECTIONS?

>> I'M AFRAID SO BECAUSE THE POLLS ALSO SHOW THAT, AND POLLS OF PAST ELECTIONS SHOW THAT WHAT IS UPPER MOST IN THE MIND OF THE ELECTORATE IN THE LEAD UP TO ELECTIONS AFFECT THEIR CHOICES.

TWO, THREE MANDATES HERE AND THERE, WHETHER THE ISSUE IS SECURITY OR THE ISSUE IS ANOTHER, AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF ISSUES IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT TO YOUR MAIN QUESTION, WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE FIVE LEADERS OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES, ASSUMING THAT THEY WILL FORM THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, I SEE THEM AS HAVING ONE MIND ON SEVERAL ISSUES.

LET ME START WITH WHAT THEY ARE NOT.

THEY ARE NOT READY TO THE DAY AFTER ELECTIONS TO RUN THROUGH AN EMBRACE AND SIGN INTO STATE AGREEMENT.

THAT'S NOT IN THE CARDS ON OUR SIDEERS ON THE PALESTINIAN'S SIDE AND OTHERWISE.

BUT WHAT ARE THEY IN ONE MIND WHICH DIFFERS DRAMATICALLY WITH NETANYAHU?

ONE, THEY WANT TO END THE WAR IN GAZA.

TWO, THEY WANT TO END THE WAR IN LEBANON.

THREE, THEY ARE ALL IN ONE MIND THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL FIRMLY WITH THE JEWISH TERRORISM ON THE WEST BANK.

NEXT, THEY ALL BELIEVE THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY WITH ALL ITS FLAWS IS AN ESSENTIAL PARTNER.

FOR SOME OF THEM, IT IS A PARTNER FOR AN EVENTUAL ONE DAY OVER THE HORIZON TWO- STATE AGREEMENT.

FOR OTHERS, LIKE BENNETT, WHOM YOU MENTIONED, IT IS JUST TO SPARE ISRAEL THE NEED TO CARE FOR THE LIVES AND FUND THE LIVES OF 3 MILLION PALESTINIANS ON THE WEST BANK.

SO EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT TOMORROW MORNING, IT'S GOING TO BE A SEA CHANGE THAT WE CHANGE DRAMATICALLY THE DYNAMICS ON THE GROUND AND ISRAEL'S STANDING IN THE REGION AND BEYOND.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU WORK FOR SHIMON PERES AND ALSO IN THE SORT OF ATMOSPHERE OF GRABIN.

THEY BOTH CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THERE WAS NO MILITARY END TO THIS.

THE PRESIDENT OF LEBANON, A FORMER MILITARY COMMANDER, SAYS THE SAME THING.

IT HAS TO BE NEGOTIATED.

I HEAR WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A SERIOUS ATTEMPT TO WORK TOWARDS NEGOTIATION TO END IT?

>> IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE -- >> YES.

>> I THINK, WELL, I BELIEVE THAT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS WAY OVER THE HORIZON.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ONE CANNOT HAVE A SEA CHANGE ON THE GROUND BY PURSUING A DIFFERENT POLICY.

A POLICY THAT CONSIDERED, AS I MENTIONED, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS A PARTNER RATHER THAN ANSWER ENEMY.

A DYNAMICS THAT PUT A HOLD ON SET.

EXPANSION, SETTLE VIOLENCE AND ALL THAT.

GIVE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY HOPE AND SPACE.

>> I HEAR YOU, AND THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

NIMROD NOVIK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

WHEN IRAN ANNOUNCED IT WAS SUSPENDING ATTACKS ON ISRAEL, IT WARNED THEY WOULD START UP AGAIN IF ISRAEL STRIKES ON LEBANON CONTINUED.

AS DISCUSSED, THOSE STRIKES ARE CONTINUING, WHICH MAKES LEBANON THE KEY TO DETERMINING WHETHER THIS IS ABOUT ESCALATION OR DE-ESCALATION.

AND THE COUNTRY IS SUFFERING FOR IT.

TWO LEBANESE ARMY OFFICERS AND A SOLDIER KILLED IN A WEEKEND ATTACK BY ISRAEL.

NOW THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES SAY THEY ARE INVESTIGATING, BUT THEY CALL THE ATTACK AGGRESSIVE AND BAR BARE ACHE.

PRESIDENT JOSEPH AOUN SAYS IT WAS A VIOLATION OF LEBANESE SOVEREIGNTY AND INTERNATIONAL LAW I SAT DOWN FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW.

WE BROUGHT THE FIRST PART OF THAT CONVERSATION ON FRIDAY.

HERE MORE, INCLUDING HIS DIRECT MESSAGES TO ISRAELIS, IRANIANS AND HIS OWN LEBANESE PEOPLE.

ARE YOU PREPARED TO KEEP THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL GOING UNDER THE AMERICAN AUSPICES?

HOW IS THAT GOING AT ALL?

>> ACTUALLY, I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

I AM TRYING TO BENEFIT FROM THE PRESIDENT TRUMP PERSONAL INTEREST IN ENDING THIS CONFLICT, AND AS I SAID, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, BUT WE ARE COMMITTED TO IT.

WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

SO WE ARE COUNTING ON PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS TEAM TO MAKE A BREAKTHROUGH.

BUT WE DID YESTERDAY OR THE DAY BEFORE, IT WAS A TOUGH NEGOTIATION, TO HAVE A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH, A CEASEFIRE IN EXCHANGE OF HEZBOLLAH WAS OVER FROM THE SOUTHERN PART OF LEBANON.

>> ARE THEY GOING TO DO IT?

>> THIS IS DIFFERENT.

THEY CAME UP WITH THIS INITIATIVE AND WE ARE TRYING TO WORK IT OUT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, BUT WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

WE HAVE TO KEEP TRYING.

WE HAVE TO TRY TO FIND ALL MEANS TO SETTLE THIS PROBLEM OR TO HAVE THIS CONFLICT.

IT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST FOR BOTH SIDES.

>> WHAT IS ON THE TABLE?

IS IT A FULL-SCALE PEACE AGREEMENT LIKE JORDAN HAS WITH ISRAEL?

>> NO, ACTUALLY, FOR THE TIME BEING, IT'S NON-CONGRESS AGREEMENT, SECURITY AGREEMENT, YOU NAME IT.

WE NEED TO END THE STATE OF HOSTILITY BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL FOREVER.

THIS COULD BE THE PATH FORWARD FOR JUST AND LASTING PEACE.

AND AS FAR AS PEACE IS CONCERNED, WE ARE PART OF THE INITIATIVE OF 2002 BEIRUT.

SO WE ARE PART OF THE INITIATIVE AND WE ARE COMMITTED TO IT.

BUT YOU CANNOT JUMP FROM A TO Z DIRECTLY.

YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH DIFFERENT STEPS.

THE INTERMEDIATE STEP IS SECESSION OF HOSTILITY OR ENDING THE STATE OF HOSTILITY BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL.

>> WOULD YOU EVER MEET PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU?

>> NO.

DEPENDING ON WHERE WE ARE.

>> WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?

>> NOT BEFORE REACHING AN AGREEMENT.

>> TO END THE FIRST PHASE AGREEMENT TO END THE WAR?

>> EXACTLY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU POINT BLANK RIGHT NOW.

IS THERE A CEASEFIRE?

>> I AM WORKING ON IT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

>> WHAT ABOUT THESE PILOT ZONES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND EVERYBODY IS BEING QUITE TAKEN BY THE ISRAELI REOCCUPATION OF WHAT'S IN ENGLISH CALLED THE BEAUFORT CASTLE, AN HISTORIC AND IMPORTANT SYMBOL.

>> EXACTLY.

DURING THE NEGOTIATION, THE MILITARY-TO-MILITARY NEGOTIATION, THEY COME UP WITH A PILOT -- ACTUALLY, THIS CONCEPT CAME UP DURING THE FOUR -- DURING CHRISTMAS WHEN WE DECIDED TO INCREASE OUR REPRESENTATION AND A CIVILIAN.

THEY CAME UP WITH A PILOT ZONE.

THE PILOT ZONE STANDS FOR AN AREA THAT THEY WILL OCCUPY.

>> THE LEBANESE ARMY?

>> THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES, SORRY, OCCUPY IT, AND THEN WE CAN MOVE FROM ANOTHER REGION TO ANOTHER REGION.

IT'S LIKE A TRIAL REGION.

IT'S A TEST REGION.

AND IT'S NOT ONLY THAT.

WE START REBUILDING IT.

DURING THIS NEGOTIATION, WE PROPOSED --I PERSONALLY PROPOSED THE CHATEAU BEAUFORT AREA BECAUSE IT'S SYMBIOTIC.

IT'S VERY CLOSE TO ONE OF THE LARGEST SHIITE --SO I PROPOSE THE ISRAELIS WITHDRAW FROM IT, AND THEN THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES WILL DEPLOY IN ORDER TO CLEAN IT.

ON ONE CONDITION THAT WE HAVE A COMPLETE CEASEFIRE BECAUSE YOU CANNOT ACCEPTED YOUR TROOPS, YOU CANNOT SEND YOUR TROOPS WHILE THERE IS A FIRE IS GOING ON, SHOOTING IS GOING ON.

SO YOU WOULD BE RISKING THE LIVES OF THE TROOPS.

THIS IS THE IDEA.

IF IT WORKS, WE WILL MOVE INTO ANOTHER AREA.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU CANNOT GO FROM A TO Z OVERNIGHT.

AND SOMETIMES IT TAKES YEARS.

YOU MENTIONED THE FARK, REBELS IN COLUMBIA BEFORE THEY CAME TO AN AGREEMENT WITH THE GOVERNMENT T TOOK YEARS.

YOU MENTIONED THE IRA BEFORE THEY CAME TO AN AGREEMENT, TOOK DECADES WITH A LOT OF INTERVENTION BY THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS, A LOT OF REAL HELP TO GET THERE.

DISARMAMENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THESE END OF WAR SCENARIOS.

BUT HEZBOLLAH REFUSES TO DISARM.

DO YOU THINK THERE WAS ANY OPPORTUNITY RECENTLY THAT THEY WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT IT THIS ISSUE BECAUSE WE READ THAT THERE WAS AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER BOUT OF FIGHTING.

>> REMEMBER, I MENTIONED THE ROOT CAUSES OF ITS EXISTENCE.

THE FIRST PLACE, THE HEZBOLLAH WAS FORMED -- WAS ESTABLISHED IN RESPONSE TO THE ISRAELI INVASION OF 1982.

THE WAR COULD HAVE --SHOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED IN 2000.

AFTER THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF --THE WEAPON AT THAT TIME ACCOMPLISH ITS MISSION BY LIBERATING THE COUNTRY.

BUT AFTER 2000 HEZBOLLAH TOOK MAJOR STRATEGIC MISTAKES.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, AT THAT TIME THAT'S WHEN ISRAEL WITHDREW FROM LEBANON IN 2000?

>> EXACTLY, INTOWN 2000.

REMOVING THE ROOT CAUSES, THAT'S MY MAIN STRATEGY.

BY ENDING THE STATE OF HOSTILITY AND THE STRENGTHENING THE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION, THE SECURITY AGENCIES, THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES AND OTHER GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION SO THAT WE CAN REASON WITH HEZBOLLAH AND WE CAN PRESENT THEM WITH ALTERNATIVE THAT THE STATE IS READY TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY AND TO PROTECT EVERYBODY.

THEY ARE LEBANESE.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE IN DIGNITY, BUT UNDER THE PROTECTION OF THE STATE.

OTHERWISE, IF THEY DON'T AGREE TO TURN DOWN THEIR WEAPON OR TO REASON OR TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT, THEN THEY WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BEFORE THEIR PEOPLE.

THEIR PEOPLE WILL DISCREDIT THEM.

>> SO LET ME TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE BECAUSE IN CONVERSATION WITH PEOPLE PERSONALLY, IN INTERVIEWS, READING ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY, IT IS CLEAR, AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED THEY ARE FED UP.

EF GROUP IN LEBANON IS FED UP AND WANTS AN END TO THIS AND A NON-STATE ACTOR TO STOP THREATENING ITS SOVEREIGNTY AS A STATE.

AND YET, INCLUDING SOME OF YOUR OWN FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIALS, YOUR MILITARY COMMANDERS AND THIS AND THAT, THEY ARE VERY WEARY OF A FORCIBLE DISARMAMENT BY THE STATE OF HEZBOLLAH BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO TIP THIS COUNTRY BACK INTO CIVIL WAR.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> DEFINITELY.

LISTEN, THERE IS A CONCEPT, THE MILITARY CONCEPT, CALLED PREPARATION OF THE BATTLEFIELD.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO SET UP YOUR ARTILLERY.

IT'S TO SHAPE THE ENVIRONMENT.

BEFORE REACHING THAT PART, WE HAVE TO SHAPE THE ENVIRONMENT.

WE HAVE TO CONVINCE THE MASS BASE.

WE HAVE TO REMOVE --TO REMOVE THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE WEAPON.

AND THEN WE CAN PROCEED.

A AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, IT REQUIRES A STRATEGY MULTI-LINES OF EFFORT.

THE KINETIC PART OF IT IS NOT 10%.

THE REST IS POLITICAL, SOCIAL, AND ECONOMIC.

IN 1975, THE FIRST INSTITUTION TO COLLAPSE WAS THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES.

AS A RESULT, WE SAW THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS, AND THE EMERGENCE OF LOCAL MILITIAS.

CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM.

THE NORMAL PEOPLE HAD TO RESORT TO THEIR MILITIAS FOR SECURITY, SAFETY, FOOD, BASIC NEEDS.

NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO REPLACE THOSE MILITIAS.

THE MAIN SHIITE COMMUNITIES, BELIEVE ME, ARE FED UP.

BUT YOU NEED -- WE NEED TO PROVIDE THEM WITH ALTERNATIVE, WHICH IS A GOVERNMENT.

THE EQUATION IS SIMPLE.

STRONG GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION CAN OVERSHADOW ALL NON-STATE ACTORS.

WEAK GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION, NON-STATE ACTOR WILL HAVE OVERSHADOWED THE STATE.

SO WE HAVE --WE NEED TO WORK ON STRENGTHENING THE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION.

WAS THERE SECURITY, AS YOU SAID, MILITARILY, OR OTHER INSTITUTION AND WORK ON REMOVING THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE WEAPON.

>> DO YOU -- >> OTHER WAY WILL BE A DISASTER.

>> AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WE -- >> ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU THINK HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN ARE SOMEHOW STRENGTHENED.

AND I DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN PHYSICALLY STRENGTHENED, BY THE ISRAELI U. S. WAR ON IRAN BECAUSE EVERYBODY EXPECTED IT DO EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

YOU REMEMBER WHEN ISRAEL, YOU KNOW, HAD THIS PRETTY SUCCESSFUL ANTI- HEZBOLLAH, FROM THE EXPLODING PAGES TO THE KILLING OF THEIR LEADER AND ON AND ON AND ON, AND THEN THE WEAKENING MILITARILY OF IRAN, AND YET BOTH THE STATE OF IRAN AND THE NON-STATE ACTOR HEZBOLLAH ARE STILL FIRING, STILL DOING THEIR THINGS, STILL THERE.

AND IN FACT, ISRAEL HAS BEEN FLUMMOXED BY HEZBOLLAH'S RATHER INNOVATIVE ASYMMETRIC WAR.

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE STRONGER?

>> HEZBOLLAH?

>> THE WHOLE LOT.

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE STRONGER -- >> IT'S NOT MEASURED BY THEIR CAPABILITY ONLY.

THEIR STRENGTH IS MEASURED BY THEIR PRESENCE, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON EXISTS, IT MEANS FOR THEM IT'S SOMETHING.

SO WHEN YOU FIGHT AN ASYMMETRIC WARFARE, IT DOESN'T REQUIRE HIGHLY ADVANCED CAPABILITIES.

IT TOOK SOME OPERATIONS BEHIND ENEMY LINES.

WE HAVE MANY EXAMPLES THROUGHOUT HISTORY THAT SHOWS A CONVENTIONAL FORCES ENGAGED IN ASYMMETRIC WARFARE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE THEIR OBJECTIVE, AND IT'S A WAR OF ATTRITION.

IT'S A COSTLY WAR.

SO IT'S NOT THE QUESTION OF CAPABILITIES ONLY, BUT IT'S A QUESTION OF BELIEFS, IT'S A QUESTION OF PRESENCE, IT'S A QUESTION OF WILLINGNESS AND TO DO WHAT THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE DOING IS SACRED.

>> DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE A HIGHER PAIN THRESHOLD THAN EITHER ISRAEL OR ORB THE UNITED STATES?

DO YOU THINK IRAN AND HEZBOLLAH HAVE A HIGHER PAIN ENDURANCE, TOLERANCE?

>> YOU KNOW, IRAN OR THE IRANIAN ARE FAMOUS FOR, YOU KNOW, MAKING CARPETS.

IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO MAKE A CARPET.

SO THIS IS A REFLECTION OF DIPLOMACY AND STRATEGY.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT -- AND I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN WOUNDED.

TELL ME THE STATE OF YOUR BODY AFTER 42 YEARS IN COMBAT AND ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> THAT'S WHY, BECAUSE I HAVE SERVED 44 --42 YEARS IN THE ARMY AND EIGHT YEARS AS COMMANDER AND CHIEF OF THE LEBANESE ARMED FORCES, I HAVE BEEN IN COMBAT SITUATION MANY TIMES.

I WAS WOUNDED TWICE.

I HAVE SEEN THE HARDSHIP OF THE WAR.

THAT'S WHY I HATE WARS.

THAT'S WHY I PREFER NEGOTIATION OVER WARS.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY CHILDREN, I DON'T WANT THE PEOPLE IN LEBANON TO LIVE THE SAME HARDSHIP.

AND THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS CONFLICT AGAIN TO END THIS BLOODY CONFLICT IN A VERY PEACEFUL MANNER.

>> SO YOU STILL CARRY SHRAPNEL.

>> YES.

EXACTLY.

>> EAR DAMAGED BY THE SOUND OF COMBAT IN CLOSE QUARTERS, YET YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE PRESIDENCY, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS NOT THE MAIN EXECUTIVE ARM, RIGHT?

I MEAN, YOU ARE EXECUTIVE, BUT YOU HAVE A MORE LIMITED, SORT OF MORE NOT JUST CEREMONIAL, BUT MORE OF A MORAL AND FATHER OF THE NATION CAPACITY.

IT'S THE OTHER GROUPS, RIGHT?

THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

>> YES.

IT'S NOT THE PRESIDENTIAL SYSTEM.

>> RIGHT.

SO WHAT YOU CAN DO, YOURSELF, IN THIS OFFICE?

>> ACTUALLY, I SWEAR AN OATH FIRST OF ALL TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY AND SAFEGUARD THE INTEGRITY.

AND MY JOB IS TO WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT.

AND WE ARE WORKING IN HARMONY, IN LINE WITH EVERYTHING WE ARE DOING.

WE COORDINATE THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM OR THE SLIGHTEST SITUATION TOGETHER.

THIS IS A JOB OF THE PRESIDENT.

BUT NEGOTIATION IS A PREROGATIVE OF THE PRESIDENT ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE 52.

BUT I'M DOING IT IN CLOSE CONSULTATION WITH THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT.

>> WHICH ARE ALL OF DIFFERENT FAITHS.

THE PRESIDENT IS HISTORICALLY CHRISTIAN, THE PRIME MINISTER IS HISTORICALLY SUNI MUSLIM AND THE SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT SHIITE MUSLIM AND YOU MENTIONED BERRY, WHO IS THE PERSON REPRESENTING ALSO HEZBOLLAH, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

NOT HEZBOLLAH.

THE SHIITES.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

SORRY.

ARE THEY ALL ONBOARD WITH YOUR PLAN, NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL VIA THE UNITED STATES?

>> THEY ARE UNITED BEHIND ENDING THIS WAR.

>> HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK NABBY BE'ERI CAN USE HIS AUTHORITY TO PUSH HEZBOLLAH OR TO ENCOURAGE HEZBOLLAH OR TO MAKE HEZBOLLAH, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY, STOP THEIR WAR?

AND I KNOW YOU TALK ABOUT ROOT CAUSES BUT IT ALSO REQUIRES POLITICAL PRESSURE.

>> NO, DEFINITELY.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

AS I SAID, SPEAKER BARRIE IS FROM THE SOUTH.

HE SPENT 40 YEARS TRYING TO BUILD THE SOUTH.

AND THE SOUTH BEING DESTROYED.

HE IS A MAN OF STATE.

AND HE WANTS TO END THIS WAR BY PEACEFUL MEANS AND DEFINITELY AS A SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT AND THE SOLE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SHIITE, HE HAS A JOB TO DO.

BUT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW SENSITIVE IS HIS SITUATION.

I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU, BUT I AM IN CLOSE COORDINATION, CLOSE CONSULTATION WITH HIM TO TALK TO CONVINCE TO REASON WITH HEZBOLLAH TO LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPON.

HE CAN PLAY A MAJOR ROLE AND HE IS PLAYING --HE IS DOING IT.

BUT WE ARE BEING VERY CAREFUL NOT TO BE IN MILITARY CONFRONTATION WITH HEZBOLLAH OR NOT TO --AND HE IS VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THE DELICACY OF THE SITUATION INSIDE THE SHIITE.

HE IS TRYING TO REASON WITH THEM.

HE IS TRYING TO CONVINCE THEM FOR TO LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPON FOR THE BEST INTEREST OF THE SHIITE AND THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU SAID A MOMENT AGO THAT YOU SWORE AN OATH TO PROTECT AND GUARANTEE THE TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF THIS COUNTRY.

NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE AWARE, YOU PROBABLY ARE, THERE ARE INCREASING CALLS FOR A SORT OF LEBANESE FEDERALIZATION SPLITTING THE COUNTRY PRECISELY ALONG THE SECTARIAN LINES THAT YOU DON'T PARTICULARLY WANT TO SEE HAPPENING.

A LEBANESE POLITICAL ANALYST SAYS, THERE ARE GROWING CALLS FOR FEDERALISM IN LEBANON AND EVEN MORE FOR PARTITION IN SOME CASES.

MORE AND MORE CHRISTIANS AND SUNNIS ARE NOW SAYING THEY WANT FEDERALISM, A KIND OF SEPARATION.

THEY SAY OF HEZBOLLAH, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR ARMS, KEEP YOUR ARMY, KEEP IT IN YOUR REGION.

YOU CANNOT FORCE US TO ALIGN WITH IRAN.

HOW SERIOUS IS THAT TALK AND HOW MUCH OF A SITUATION COULD THAT BE?

>> IT'S NOT THE NARRATIVE OF THE STATE.

THE JOB.

STATE IS UNIFY THE COUNTRY.

I THINK HE HAS TO GO BACK AND READ HISTORY.

THIS IS THE HISTORY OF LEBANON.

YOU CANNOT CHANGE LEBANON.

YOU CANNOT CHANGE HISTORY, ACTUALLY.

>> HERE YOU ARE TALKING TO US, AND I WONDER IF YOU HAD A MESSAGE BECAUSE THIS PROGRAM IS VIEWED IN ISRAEL, IT'S VIEWED IN SOME QUARTERS IN IRAN WHERE THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, PREROGATIVE, AND IT'S VIEWED IN YOUR COUNTRY AS WELL.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THE ISRAELI PEOPLE RIGHT NOW?

>> ARE YOU REALLY WANT TO LIVE IN A PERPETUAL WAR?

AREN'T YOU FED UP WITH WAR SINCE 1948?

DO YOU WANT REALLY TO LIVE IN PEACE?

LET'S SIT AND TALK.

FOR THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, IT'S A TIME FOR THE POWER OF REASON TO PREVAIL OVER THE REASON OF POWER.

MILITARY ACTIVITIES OR MILITARY SOLUTION WILL NEVER PROVIDE YOU WITH SECURITY AND SAFETY TO THE NORTHERN PEOPLE.

WE ARE READY TO SIT AND TALK.

OUR PEOPLE ALONG THE BORDER ARE FED UP WITH WARS, BUT YOU NEED TO SHOW SOME WILLINGNESS AND COMMITMENT TO END THIS WAR FOR THE SAKE OF BOTH PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

WE ARE READY.

WE ARE WILLING.

WE ARE COMMITTED.

ARE YOU?

IF YOU ARE, LET'S SIT AND TALK.

IF YOU ARE NOT, WE WILL NEVER LIVE IN PIECE AND SAFETY AND SECURITY.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE IRANIANS AND PATRONS OF HEZBOLLAH?

>> WE SEEK GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH IRAN BASED ON A MUTUAL RESPECT, NON-INTERFERENCE, BUT REMEMBER, LEBANON IS A SOVEREIGN STATE.

IT HAS SOVEREIGN GOVERNMENT.

YOU WANT TO TALK TO US, YOU ARE MOST WELCOME.

BUT YOU KNOW DO NOT INTERFERE.

IF YOU ARE READY TO HELP US, YOU ARE MOST WELCOME.

BUT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERFERE INTO THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HELPING US OR INTERFERING INTO OUR INTERNAL ACE FAIRS.

OUR INTERESTS MAYBE DO NOT COINCIDE WITH YOUR INTERESTS.

THE PEOPLE OF LEBANON ARE PAYING THE PRICE.

THE PEOPLE OF LEBANON ARE BEING KILLED.

THEIR HOUSES OR HOMES THERE ARE BEING DESTROYED.

TO SERVE YOUR INTEREST, NOT TO SERVE THE INTEREST OF THE COUNTRY.

IT'S ABOUT TIME TO REALIZE THIS REALITY.

YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERFERE INTO OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS.

OTHER COUNTRIES ARE TRYING TO HELP US, BUT YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO HELP US.

YOU ARE DESTROYING THE COUNTRY FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR OWN INTEREST.

>> AND WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO YOUR OWN LONG-SUFFERING LEBANESE PEOPLE?

>> I KNOW YOU'RE FED UP.

I KNOW YOU BELIEVE IN THIS COUNTRY AND YOU DESERVE TO LIVE IN SAFETY AND SECURITY AND STABILITY.

YOU DESERVE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY FREE OF WAR.

YOU DESERVE TO LIVE IN A PROSPEROUS COUNTRY.

YOU DESERVE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY FREE OF CORRUPTION AND IT'S DUTY AND I AM COMMITTED TO IT, AND MY JOB IS TO SERVE YOU.

AND I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN YOU, AND I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN THE WILLINGNESS AND THE RESILIENCY AND THE CREATIVITY OF THE EASY LEBANESE PEOPLE TO MAKE LEBANON GREAT AGAIN.

>> IS THAT A PLEA TO DONALD TRUMP TO COME AND HELP?

>> REALLY, HONESTLY, HE IS COMMITTED AND HE'S -- HIS CALLS, HIS PERSONAL INTERVENTION ARE INDICATIVE OF HIS COMMITMENT AND WILLINGNESS BECAUSE HE CARES ABOUT THE STABILITY IN THE REGIONAL AND HE KNOWS THAT STABILITY IN THE REGION, LEBANON'S STABILITY IS VERY ESSENTIAL FOR THE STABILITY OF THE REGION ITSELF.

>> WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE DID CALL ON ISRAEL VERY CLEARLY.

>> YES.

>> IN CONVERSATIONS HERE ARE HEATED TO NOT PURSUE THIS, YOU KNOW, TO PULL BACK.

BUT DO YOU THINK THE WAR IN IRAN CONTRIBUTES TO THE STABILITY OF THE REGION?

>> DEFINITELY THE STABILITY OF THE REGION WAS AFFECTED BY THIS WAR.

BEFORE THE WAR, IT WASN'T THAT STABLE, LEBANON WASN'T STABLE.

BUT AFTER THE WAR, DURING THE WAR OR AFTER THE WAR, THE WHOLE REGION IS AFFECTED.

YOU SEE THAT WE SAW THAT THE BOMBARDMENT OF THE GULF COUNTRIES.

WE SAW THE BOMBARDMENT OF DIFFERENT ARAB COUNTRIES.

WE SAW WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IN LEBANON.

SO, HOPEFULLY, THAT WILL END VERY SOON BECAUSE IT WILL HAVE A SPILLOVER EFFECT INTO REGION IN SECURITY ENVIRONMENT.

BUT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID REALLY TAKES COURAGE AND WISDOM.

IT'S TRUE STRENGTH IS NOT IN THE ABILITY OF FIGHTING WAR, BUT IN THE COURAGE OF WISDOM OF ENDING THIS WAR THROUGH NEGOTIATION.

SO THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DOING NOW.

AND WE ARE COUNTING ON HIM TO END THIS CONFLICT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE SO WE CAN, THE WHOLE REGION, BECOMES STABLE AND SECURE.

>> PRESIDENT AOUN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NOW, PUSHED OUT FOR NOT UPHOLDING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S AGENDA, THAT'S WHAT SEVERAL FORMER FBI OFFICIALS SAY GOT THEM FORCED OUT OF THE BUREAU.

UNDER TRUMP LOYALIST DIRECTOR KASH PATEL, THE FBI HAS SEEN DOZEN OF EMPLOYEES PUNCHED TO ALLEGEDLY ROOT OUT POLITICAL BIAS.

ONE OF THEM IS JACQUELINE MAGUIRE WHO SERVED FOR 25 YEARS AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO EXPLAIN WHY SHE LEFT AND HOW CHANGES WITHIN THE FBI ARE MAKING THE U. S. LESS SAFE.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

JACQUELINE MAGUIRE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU SPENT SOME 25 YEARS AT FBI.

YOU SERVED IN LEADERSHIP ROLES THAT INCLUDED SPECIAL ACT IN CHARGE.

PHILADELPHIA FIELD OFFICE, EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY BRANCH.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THE REASON WE INVITED YOU TO SPEAK WITH US TODAY, YOUR ROLE AND RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FBI, IS THERE SOMETHING AT THE BUREAU IN YOUR SERVICE THAT YOU ARE PARTICULARLY PROUD OF?

JUST BEING AN AGENT AND BEING ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, SERVE THE PUBLIC.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY AGENT FORGETS THEIR GRADUATION DAY FROM QUANTICO.

IT IS A SPECIAL DAY.

I STILL GET CHILLS THINKING ABOUT IT.

I HAD MY FAMILY THERE.

AND TO TAKE THE OATH OF OFFICE U TAKE THE OATH OF OFFICE ON YOUR FIRST DAY AT THE ACADEMY.

YOU GET SWORN IN.

BUT THEN DO YOU IT AGAIN MOST OFTEN THE DIRECTOR OF THE FBI AT THE TIME IS AT GRADUATION, AND HE SWEARS IN THE NEW CLASS OF FBI AGENTS AND YOU TAKE YOUR OATH TO SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION.

SO I THINK THAT'S JUST AS LONG AS MY CAREER WAS AND AS MANY OPPORTUNITIES AND EXPERIENCES, I WAS FORTUNATE TO HAVE, I WOULD GO BACK TO THE VERY BEGINNING AND SAY I AM MOST PROUD TO HAVE BECOME AN FBI ACT.

>> YOU SWEAR AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION, RIGHT?

NOT TO ANY PARTICULAR ADMINISTRATION.

NOT TO A PARTICULAR FIGURE.

>> YES, YOU MAY HAVE PICKED UP ON MY EMPHASIZING OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION TO SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

IN MY CAREER, I SERVED UNDER I THINK FIVE DIFFERENT PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS, AND IT DIDN'T MATTER.

WHO WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AT THE TIME.

IT DIDN'T MATTER, YOU KNOW, WHAT ADMINISTRATION WAS IN PLACE.

WE SERVE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND WE UPHOLD THE MISSION OF THE FBI.

>> SO NOW YOU HAVE DECIDED TO BECOME PART OF A NEWLY LAUNCHED FBI SUPPORT NETWORK.

WHAT IS THIS NEW ORGANIZATION?

>> THIS NEW FBI SUPPORT NETWORK, WHICH COMES UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE JUSTICE CONNECTION, IS TO REALLY PROVIDE RESOURCES BASED ON WHAT IS GOING ON IN OUR WORLD, IN OUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

SO THE JUSTICE CONNECTION IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT WAS SET UP IN JANUARY OF 2025 WHEN THE NEW ADMINISTRATION CAME IN, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AND STARTED FIRING AND FORCING PEOPLE OUT IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUST.

SO THIS GROUP, THE JUSTICE CONNECTION, WAS FORMED, AND IT'S MADE UP OF FORMER DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICIALS, AND THEY WERE PROVIDED RESOURCES SINCE THAT TIME, SINCE JANUARY OF 2025, TO PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN FORCED OUT, AND THAT INCLUDED FBI PERSONNEL.

THE RESOURCES INCLUDE LEGAL RESOURCES, PRO BONO REPRESENTATION, MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES, CAREER RESOURCES, AND ALSO JUST THAT GENERAL SUPPORT TO MAKE SURE WITH ALL THAT WAS GOING ON THAT THEY WERE NOT ALONE.

BUT BECAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE PAST YEAR AND EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED AT THE FBI, THE FBI HAS BEEN --I THINK THE AGENCY THAT HAS BEEN IMPACTED THE MOST BY THE ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND WE REALIZE THAT THE FBI REALLY NEEDED ITS OWN DEDICATED GROUP UNDER A JUSTICE CONNECTION.

SO THAT'S WHERE THE FBI SUPPORT NETWORK HAS COME FROM.

>> YOU SERVED THROUGH FIVE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS, INCLUDING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAN IN PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION THAT YOU HAVE SERVED UNDER?

>> THERE ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENT PRIORITIES OF PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS AND DIFFERENT FOCUSES, AND THAT'S OKAY.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE NOW IS THAT REALLY THE GUARDRAILS HAVE COME DOWN.

I THINK THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IS NO-HOLD BARRED ON TAKING ACTION WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSEQUENCES.

NOT CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE, BECAUSE THOSE ARE --THAT'S HAPPENING.

PEOPLE ARE PERSONALLY AFFECTED BY THIS.

BUT THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE MISSION AND THE WORK OF THE FBI, THE CONSEQUENCES, HONESTLY, TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO OUR SAFETY OVERALL BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE MISSION OF THE FBI IS TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND UPHOLD THE U. S. CONSTITUTION.

AND THE ACTIONS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THE CURRENT FBI LEADERSHIP ARE TAKING REALLY DISTRACT AND THE FBI IS SUPPOSED TO BE AND NEEDS TO BE NONPARTISAN, APOLITICAL.

PEOPLE NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON INVESTIGATIONS NO MATTER WHERE THE FACTS LEAD, AND THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE WHERE THE FACTS LEAD.

BUT THAT'S OKAY.

THAT'S SHOWING THAT WE'RE DOING OUR JOB CORRECTLY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE OUTCOME IS.

WE WANT IT TO BE A FAIR OUTCOME.

AND NOW I THINK THINGS HAVE BEEN TURNED UPSIDE DOWN.

>> GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHY YOU SAY THAT.

>> AN EXAMPLE I THINK IS USING THE POWER OF THE FBI, ITS INVESTIGATIVE POWER TO GO AFTER THOSE WHO ARE DISLIKED OR THOSE WHO HAVE PARTAKEN IN ACTIVITIES THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION DISLIKES.

SO YOU HAVE FOLKS IN THE FBI, AGENT ANALYSTS, PROFESSIONAL STAFF WHO SWORE AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY HAVE CONDUCTED INVESTIGATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED AT HIGHER LEVELS.

THEY WERE ASSIGNED THOSE INVESTIGATIONS.

THEY TOOK ACTION THAT WAS APPROVED BY THE COURTS, AND NOW THEY ARE BEING FIRED, THEY ARE BEING, YOU KNOW, ACTED AGAINST BY PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY BETRAYING THE SAME OATH.

>> SO PEOPLE ARE FIRED BECAUSE THEY WERE ASSIGNED TO INVESTIGATIONS, PRESUMABLY PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY INVESTIGATED.

AND BECAUSE --YOUR CONTENTION AND THAT OF OTHERS, PART OF THIS GROUP, IS THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE ASSIGNED A TASK AND THEY FULFILLED THAT TASK T THEY ARE NOW BEING RETALIATED AGAINST FOR DOING A TASK TO WHICH THEY WERE ASSIGNED?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

WE COULD LOOK AT NUMBER OF PERSONNEL WHO HAVE BEEN FIRED OVER THE PAST YEAR, WHETHER IT'S PROSECUTORS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OR AGENTS, ANALYSTS AND PROFESSIONAL STAFF IN THE FBI.

THAT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE INVESTIGATIONS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THOSE PEOPLE, BECAUSE OF THEIR PARTICIPATION IN THOSE INVESTIGATIONS.

AT TIMES, EVEN BECAUSE THEY ARE RUMORED PARTICIPATION IN THOSE INVESTIGATIONS, THEY HAVE BEEN FIRED AND THEY HAVE BEEN RETALIATED AGAINST MERELY FOR JUST DOING THEIR JOB.

>> IN EARLY 2025, YOU WERE AMONG A GROUP OF OTHER SENIOR EXECUTIVES WHO WERE PUSHED OUT OF THE BUREAU.

DID YOU EVER GET A RATIONALE?

WHAT WAS THE STATED RATIONALE?

>> THAT IS EXACTLY THE QUESTION I ASKED WHEN WE WERE TOLD AT THE END OF JANUARY 2025 THAT WE WOULD BE FIRED IF WE DID NOT RESIGN OR RETIRE FROM THE BUREAU WITHIN A FEW DAYS, AND THE RESPONSE WAS THAT WE COULD NOT BE TRUSTED TO UPHOLD THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

>> AGENDAS?

NOT CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENTS, BUT THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

YOU WERE SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU COULD NOT BE TRUSTED TO UPHOLD THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

AND IS THERE ANY LEGAL REOURS COURSE TO THAT?

DO THE FBI AGENTS HAVE CIVIL SERVICE PROTECTIONS?

IS THERE ANY PROCESS REQUIRED?

WERE YOU AT A LEVEL WHERE YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY CONSIDERED AT WILL ONCE YOU ARE A SENIOR EXECUTIVE, ARE YOU CONSIDERED A POLITICAL APPOINTEE?

>> I WAS NOT A POLITICAL APPOINTEE.

I HAVE WAS A CAREER PUBLIC SERVANT, CAREER FIB OFFICIAL THAT SERVED FOR 25 YEARS AS WERE ALL MUCH MY COLLEAGUES.

THOSE ARE ALL GREAT QUESTIONS.

YOU KNOW, THE RESPONSE AT THAT TIME WAS HONESTLY SHOCK BECAUSE WE HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

WE HAD SEEN IT BEING --GOING ON, THE PREVIOUS FEW DAYS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WHERE ATTORNEYS WERE BEING FIRED, BUT I THINK THE SHOCK OF THAT BEING THE ANSWER OF THE REASON WHY THAT WE COULDN'T CARRY OUT A PRESIDENT'S AGENDA AND MY RESPONSE RIGHT AWAY WAS, I DON'T CARRY OUT ANYONE'S AGENDA.

I CARRY OUT THE U. S. CONSTITUTION.

I CARRY OUT THE MISSION OF THE FBI.

AND AGAIN, I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR.

PRIORITIES CHANGE.

FOCUSES CHANGE.

THREATS CHANGE OVER THE YEARS.

WE SAW THAT AT THE BEGINNING OF MY CAREER AFTER 9/11 AND THE REFOCUS OF THE FBI AND NATIONAL SECURITY AND COUNTERTERRORISM.

BUT THOSE WEREN'T AGENDAS.

THOSE THINGS WERE DONE FOR THE SAFETY OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> YOU WROTE AN ESSAY FOR THE "TIMES," FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" IN MARCH.

YOU WROTE THAT THE BUREAU REMAINS STRONG BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO SERVE IN IT.

EVEN AS MANY EXPERIENCED EMPLOYEES HAVE LEFT.

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE LEFT?

I KNOW THAT IT HAS BEEN ESTIMATED THAT SOME LIKE 10,000 LAWYERS IN THE FEDERAL SERVICE HAVE LEFT.

SOME PEOPLE IN THE FBI SERVICE ARE ALSO LAWYERS.

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW MANY FBI ACTS HAVE LEFT?

>> I DO HAVE A SENSE FROM THE STATISTICS THAT ARE PUT OUT BY THE OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, OPM, AND ROUGHLY I BELIEVE THE NUMBERS ARE ABOUT 1,100.

I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT NUMBER IN FRONT OF ME.

BUT I THINK ABOUT 1,100 AGENTS HAVE LEFT OVER THE PAST YEAR.

NOW, THAT KWLUS, YOU KNOW, RETIREMENTS.

BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO WERE FIRED.

IT INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED OUT LIKE MYSELF.

AND IT INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO LEFT BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT TOLERATE AND COULD NOT CONTINUE ON IN THAT SITUATION AND UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

I KNOW THAT OF THAT NUMBER, I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT 400 OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE IN SUPERVISORY POSITIONS.

SO PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF AS EXECUTIVES, PEOPLE WHO WERE SUPERVISORS OF SQUADS OR SUPERVISORS AT HEADQUARTERS DIVISIONS.

SO I THINK THAT THE IMPACT HAS TO BE ASSESSED NOT ONLY BY SHEER NUMBERS, BUT ALSO THE EXPERIENCE.

I BELIEVE THAT THE AVERAGE NUMBER OF YEARS THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO LEFT LAST YEAR HAD WAS 21 YEARS.

21 YEARS OF SERVICE IN THE FBI.

21 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE WORKING AGAINST THE THREATS THAT FBI ADDRESSES.

>> WHEN I TRAVEL, MANY PEOPLE ARE SORT OF INSULATED FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE TALK ABOUT ON THIS PROGRAM AND OTHER NEWS PROGRAMS.

IS THERE SOMETHING YOU COULD POINT TO THAT CAN DEMONSTRATE TO THE PUBLIC WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF LOSING THESE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE ACTUALLY CAN BE?

>> SURE.

I THINK THE CONSEQUENCE IS DISTRACTION FROM OUR MAJOR THREATS.

AND I THINK A PERFECT EXAMPLE, WE WENT TO WAR WITH IRAN AND RIGHT AROUND THAT TIME, AND I MENTIONED THIS IN MY PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THE CURRENT DIRECTOR FIRED PEOPLE WHO WERE WORKING THE IRAN THREAT IN WASHINGTON, D. C. , AND THAT IS CONCERNING THAT THERE IS NO CONSIDERATION OF THE IMPACT.

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THESE ACTIONS BEING TAKEN.

SO MY FEAR IS THAT THESE DISTRACTIONS, THESE ACTIONS ARE REALLY GOING TO IMPACT THE FBI'S MISSION AND THEN IMPACT THE SAFETY OF THE COUNTRY.

>> I DO WANT TO MENTION THAT WE DID APPROACH THE FBI TO ASK THEIR RESPONSE TO THE CREATION OF THE FBI SUPPORT NETWORK.

WE DO KNOW THAT THEY RECEIVED OUR REQUEST.

BUT AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW, THEY HAVE NOT OFFERED ANY RESPONSE.

THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF WEAPONIZATION, THE CURRENT DIRECTOR OF THE FBI, KASH PATEL, REPEATS, HAS REPEATEDLY ARGUED THAT THE BUREAU NEEDS TO REBUILD PUBLIC TRUST AND ADDRESS WHAT HE CONSIDERS MISCONDUCT AND BIAS WITHIN THE AGENCY.

IN FACT, THEIR ARGUMENT IS PEOPLE LIKE HIM AND PEOPLE LIKE --AND THE PRESIDENT'S ORDER, HIS SUPPORTERS, THEY HAVE BEEN THE TARGETS OF THE WEAPONIZATION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSETS.

THEY ARE THE VICTIMS.

AND THAT ALL THEY'RE DOING NOW IS ADDRESSING WHAT THEY CONSIDER MISCONDUCT DIRECTED TOWARDS THEM.

AND I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW --HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT?

>> I GUESS WE CAN SAY BOTH BEAUTY AND WEAPONIZATION ARE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER THESE DAYS, RIGHT, BECAUSE THE WEAPONIZATION ARGUMENT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, 25 YEARS IN THE FBI, I NEVER EXPERIENCED HE WEAPONIZATION THE FIRST TIME.

AND I SAID IT OVER THE PAST YEAR, THE FIRST TIME I LIVED I EXPERIENCED WEAPONIZATION AND POLITICIZATION IN MY JOB WAS THE END OF JANUARY OF 2025 WHEN THINGS BECAME POLITICAL.

SO I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF SUBJECTIVENESS IN THE VIEW OF WHAT IS SO-CALLED ALLEGED WEAPONIZATION.

YOU KNOW, OVER TIME AND OVER HISTORY, WE COULD LOOK BACK, AND, YES, THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES, RIGHT, WHERE PEOPLE WERE WRONGED BY THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD BE AFORMED THE OPPORTUNITY TO CLEAR THEIR NAMES, TO, YOU KNOW, RIGHT THOSE WRONGS.

LUCKILY, I THINK WE COULD SAY WHILE SIGNIFICANT AND IMPACTFUL ON OUR HISTORY, THOSE CASES ARE NOT THE MAJORITY, AND WE CAN'T JUST GO AROUND CALLING CASES THAT WE DON'T LIKE BECAUSE THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, TARGETED, THEY WERE TARGETING FRIENDS OF OURS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T CALL THOSE WEAPONIZED CASES.

I THINK THE BEST WAY TO AVOID THAT IS LET THE FBI BE APOLITICAL.

LET THE FBI DO THEIR JOB TO FOLLOW THE LAW, FOLLOW THE FACTS WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

THE FEAR OF EMPLOYEES OF NOT KNOWING IF WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IS GOING TO BE THE RIGHT THING OR THE WRONG THING IN KASH PATEL OR ANYONE ELSE IN THE ADMINISTRATION'S EYES.

WE HAVE TO DO THAT WITHOUT FAVOR, FAVORING ONE SIDE OR ANOTHER.

>> IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE CURRENT MOMENT THAT GIVES YOU HOPE OR CONFIDENCE THAT THE ISSUES THAT YOU ARE RAISING WILL BE ADDRESSED IN ANY WAY?

>> I HAVEN'T GIVEN UP HOPE.

TWO KMAFRMS OF THAT.

I HAVEN'T GIVEN UP HOPE BECAUSE I KNOW THE CAREER PUBLIC SERVANTS IN THE FBI.

I KNOW THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE FBI WILL CONTINUE THEIR JOB AND CONTINUE TO CARRY OUT THE MISSION TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY DESPITE THE LEADERSHIP OR LACK OF LEADERSHIP THAT THEY HAVE NOW.

AND I THINK, SECOND, THE FBI SUPPORT NETWORK AND GROUPS LIKE THAT, THAT ARE SHOWING THE EMPLOYEES WHO ARE HAVING TO FACE SOME TOUGH CHOICES OR HAVE BEEN DISMISSED FROM THE ROLES OF THE FBI DUE TO NO WRONG OF THEIR OWN.

BUT I THINK IT GIVES ME HOPE TO SEE MY FORMER COLLEAGUES COME TOGETHER TO PROVIDE THE RESOURCES, THOSE PERSONNEL TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FBI'S WORK AND THE NEGATIVE IMPACT OF THE ACTIONS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, CALL THOSE OUT.

AND SINCE IT WAS LAUNCHED EARLIER THIS WEEK, THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN AMAZING BOTH BY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PROVIDE SUPPORT AND ALSO, HONESTLY, BY PEOPLE WHO NEED THE SUPPORT, WHO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

WHETHER THEY ARE IN OR OUT OF THE BUREAU, I NEED SOME HELP.

SO WE ARE HAPPY TO PROVIDE THOSE RESOURCES.

>> SO YOU MENTIONED THAT THE FBI SUPPORT NETWORK IS RECEIVING LOTS OF -- YOU HAVE GOTTEN LOTS OF POSITIVE FEEDBACK AND SUPPORT FROM THE PUBLICISM WAS CURIOUS ABOUT CURRENT AND FORMER AGENTS.

WHAT KINDS OF QUESTIONS OR QUERIES ARE YOU GETTING FROM THEM?

ARE THERE SOME COMMON THEMES THAT YOU'RE HEARING?

>> SURE.

THE CALLS FROM THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FBI, FROM THOSE WHO ARE RECENTLY, YOU KNOW, DISMISSED FROM THE FBI REALLY ARE INDICATIVE OF THE NEED FOR THIS SUPPORT NETWORK, OF THE NEED FOR THE RESOURCES THAT THE NETWORK IS PROVIDING.

THOSE RESOURCES SPAN FROM LEGAL RESOURCES, PRO BONO REPRESENTATION, LEGAL ADVICE, MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES, HONESTLY, YOU KNOW?

I THINK THOSE ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND WE CAN'T OVERLOOK THE EMOTIONAL TOLL THAT THIS COULD TAKE ON PEOPLE.

AND THEN ALSO CAREER RESOURCES.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEPS FOR ME, FROM SOMEONE WHO IS LOOKING TO LEAVE THE FBI OR HAS LEFT, BEEN FORCED OUT.

FBI.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE BOARD, THOSE RESOURCES, WE IDENTIFIED THE NEED FOR THOSE RESOURCES, SEEING THE GREAT WORK OF THE JUSTICE CONNECTION OVER THE PAST YEAR, AND THOSE ARE THE RESOURCES THAT ARE BEING ASKED FOR.

>> JACQUELINE MAGUIRE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

ARE .

>> AND FINALLY, MAKE WAY FOR MOTHER.

LESLEY MANVILLE HAS WON HER FIRST EVER TONY AWARD FOR HER BROADWAY DEBUT AS ZERO CAST A, FEMALE IN THE GREEK TRAGEDY.

SHE WON BEST LEADING ACTRESS IN PLAY, BRING THE ADAPTATION TO LIFE.

I SPOKE WITH THEM IN NEW YORK WITH THE 2,500 YEAR OLD PIECE HAD A BROADWAY REVIVAL.

THEY TOLD ME WHY THE TALE STILL FEELS LIKE A MODERN POLITICAL THRILLER.

YOU CAN WATCH OUR FULL CONVERSATION THIS FRIDAY ON THIS PROGRAM.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP ON-SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.