Amanpour and Company

> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

POLAND BLAMES RUSSIA FOR FIRING A MISSILE INTO ITS TERRITORY.

AFTER DEADLY STRIKES ACROSS UKRAINE.

JOURNALIST NATALIYA GUMENYUK GIVES US THE DETAILS FROM KYIV.

> IS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ECLIPSING HUMAN CONTROL?

A SENIOR RESEARCHER ASSIGNED TO THE ALARM AND I ASK AN EXPERT ABOUT REGULATING THE TECHNOLOGY AT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT.

> AFTER NEARLY 30 YEARS IN POWER, NICARAGUA'S PRESIDENT VOWS NO MORE ELECTIONS.

EXILED WRITER GIOCONDA BELLI TELLS ME WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE NATION'S POLITICAL FUTURE AND ITS PEOPLE.

> WE NEED TO MAKE SURE BLACK WOMEN'S STORIES , BY AND ABOUT BLACK WOMEN, CAN BE EFFECTIVELY TOLD.

CELEBRATING THE LIVES AND LEGACIES OF BLACK WOMEN IN ORGANIZERS OF A NEW READING INITIATIVE, MARITA GOLDEN AND GWEN McKINNEY JOIN MICHELE MARTIN .

FINALLY -- > FINDINGS SLEEP IN A STRESSFUL WORLD.

MONTGOMERY REPORTS ON THE NEW TECH THAT SAID I CAN HELP YOU SLEEP ANYWHERE.

> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B.

POYTA, THE STRESS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

> A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M POLLINATING IN NEW YORK NEW YORK --CREATING THIS MASSIVE CRATER AFTER IT LANDED AND EXPLODED IN THE FIELD.

TWO NATO FIGHTER JETS WERE ACTIVATED AND PREPARED TO SHOOT IT DOWN.

THIS COMES AFTER THE UKRAINIAN LEADERS RECENT VISIT TO WASHINGTON WHERE HE SAID MOVE FORWARD WITH LICENSING UKRAINE TO PRODUCE PATRIOT AIR DEFENSE MISSILES, ONCE HIS COUNTRY SO DESPERATELY NEEDS.

BUT WILL THIS CHANGE THE TIDE IN THIS ONGOING WAR, I'M JOINED BY UKRAINIAN JOURNALIST NATALIYA GUMENYUK, SHE JOINS US NOW FROM KYIV, GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

AND AGAIN, WE WATCHED AS IT WAS SUCH A HARROWING NIGHT IN KYIV BUT OBVIOUSLY THROUGHOUT UKRAINE AS WELL.

SO LISTEN, OVERNIGHT, MORE THAN 70 MISSILES, MORE THAN 280 DRONES, IT IS ONE OF THE WORST ATTACKS AGAIN, AND ZELENSKYY'S HOMETOWN .

HE DESCRIBED ONE MISSILE ATTACK THAT HAD A HOUSE SAYING, IT WAS AN ORDINARY HOME, BLOWN AS YOU JUST HEARD US COME INTO SMITHEREENS BY A BALLISTIC MISSILE.

FOUR CHILDREN WERE APPARENTLY KILLED AND WE HAVE TO NOTE FOR VIEWERS, THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF UKRAINE'S DEADLIEST MONTHS FOR CIVILIANS SINCE A FULL-SCALE INVASION IN 2022, SO GIVE US SOME INSIGHT, WHAT IS THE MOOD THERE ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW AND HOW MUCH LONGER CAN UKRAINE REALISTICALLY ENDURE THIS?

I THINK WHAT MAKES THIS ATTACK SPECIAL AND WHY THE COUNTRY IS LOOKING INTO THAT, THERE'S A WHOLE FAMILY KILLED, THERE'S A FAMILY WHERE THERE WERE SEVEN CHILDREN AND THE PARENTS WERE KILLED AS WELL.

WE KNEW ABOUT THREE OF THE KIDS.

WE KNOW THE REST OF THE SMALL KIDS WERE INJURED, SO THE UKRAINIAN PRESS IS FULL OF THEIR PHOTOS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL FAMILY WHICH IS MORE OR LESS WIPED OUT BY THE BALLISTIC MISSILES.

NOW COMING INTO THE IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, ALMOST 360 AERIAL WEAPONS WERE SENT INTO UKRAINE BUT THE MOST DANGEROUS OF THEM HOWEVER THERE ARE CRUISE MISSILES, AND DRONES, MOST OF THOSE THINGS CAN BE INTERCEPTED BY TODAY'S UKRAINIAN AIR DEFENSE, BY DIFFERENT TYPES OF WEAPONRY BUT NOT THE BALLISTIC MISSILES.

AND RUSSIA IS USING THEM THIS SUMMER KNOWING THERE'S A SHORTAGE.

THERE IS A SHORTAGE IN UKRAINE, A SHORTAGE GLOBALLY, UKRAINE IS ASKING THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO PROVIDE MORE OF THIS TYPE OF MISSILE, SINCE DONALD TRUMP IS IN OFFICE, THE PROBLEM IS THE AMERICAN PATRIOT SYSTEM IS CAPABLE OF SHUT THEM DOWN.

EUROPE IS ALSO YOU KNOW, THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SYSTEMS WHICH CAN HELP, BUT THAT IS A BIT OF THE PROBLEM.

AND WE DO UNDERSTAND THE PATRIOT MISSILES ARE ELSEWHERE IN DIFFERENT REGIONS.

BUT RUSSIA IS DOING THIS NOW THERE IS A MOMENT.

UKRAINE IS TRYING TO BUILD ITS OWN BALLISTIC COALITION TO BE CAPABLE BUT IT'LL TAKE ANOTHER YEAR.

I SHOULD ALSO SAY THE IMPACT ON THOSE ATTACKS , THE UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE FIGHTING, THERE'S NO PROGRESS, AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE ISSUE, THE ONLY THING MOSCOW CAN DO IS REALLY TERRORIZE THE CIVILIAN POPULATION KIND OF TO KILL PEOPLE BUT MAINLY TO DESTROY THE MOOD, BUT IT HAS LESSER IMPACT ON THE BATTLEGROUND SITUATION.

OBVIOUSLY, UKRAINE CAN INTO HER, WELL INTO HER, I SHOULD SAY, I'M NOT CYNICAL BUT I SHOULD SAY, YES, IF THAT WOULD BE A FAMILY, DESTROYED AND WIPED OUT FROM THE EARTH WITH EXTENSIVE BALLISTIC MISSILES, THE WORLD WILL CONTINUE BUT IT'S EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE AND THE WHOLE PRIORITY IS TO WORK WITH THE AIR DEFENSE, AND PART OF THE REASON OF THE VISIT WAS ALSO TO WORK WITH THE ONLY REAL CAPABILITY THAT SOLELY DEPENDS ON THE AMERICANS AND THE WHITE HOUSE.

NATALIYA, YOU'VE REALLY PUT A FINE POINT ON THE FACT THAT RUSSIA IS DOING THIS BECAUSE IT UNDERSTANDS THAT IN SOME QUARTERS OF THIS WAR, IT IS LOSING, PERHAPS TO ESCALATE THINGS, A MISSILE FROM RUSSIA LANDED DEEP IN POLISH TERRITORY, THIS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE IN TERMS OF WHERE IT LANDED.

THE POLISH PRIME MINISTER SAID ALL INDICATIONS ARE THAT IT WAS IN FACT A CRUISE MISSILE .

BUT THERE'S NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT POLAND WAS THE INTENDED TARGET.

I WILL POINT OUT NATO DID HAVE TO SCRAMBLE IT'S JETS, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED BUT I'M LOOKING AT THE LOCATION NOW, AND THINKING, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THIS MEANS, OUT AND SAID THIS WAS SOME KIND OF MISTAKE, SO WHAT DOES UKRAINE WANT THE PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE TO BE FROM BOTH NATO AND THE EUROPEAN ALLIES?

I THINK THE UKRAINIAN CONCERN IS THAT FOR QUITE SOME TIME ESPECIALLY DURING THIS TIME , RUSSIA IS AIMING THIS YEAR TO TEST HOW UNITED NATO IS.

SO THEY ARE LAUNCHING THESE NUMEROUS ATTACKS, POLAND, AND PROBABLY INTO ESTONIA, OR LITHUANIA, LITERALLY, TOO, YOU KNOW, PUSH THE RED LINE, SO WE TRIED IT WITH A DRONE, NOTHING HAPPENS, THEN WE WILL TRY WITH THAT MISSILE, THAT MISSILE, AND MAKING IT NORMALIZED, AND MAYBE POSSIBLY NORMAL TO ATTACK THE NATO COUNTRIES AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN TO US.

THERE WON'T BE RETALIATION.

THIS IS MORE OF A POLITICAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THE REDLINES, AND MORE ABOUT THE PRINCIPAL, SO SO FAR EVERY ATTACK IS JUDGED WITH HOW HARMFUL IT WAS.

HOWEVER THE KREMLIN, THE WHOLE IDEA IS, THE PRINCIPLE THAT NATO DOESN'T RESPOND TO THE ATTACK AND WHEN IT WOULD BE OKAY FOR US TO DO THAT, BUT NOBODY WOULD MENTION, IT WOULD BE MORE OR LEST NORMALIZED.

RUSSIA IS STOPPED WHEN IT STOPPED, NOT WHEN YOU PERSUADE THEM.

WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW BUT CERTAINLY, REALLY QUITE CRITICAL DEVELOPMENTS THERE IN UKRAINE AND QUITE FRANKLY OVER THE LAST MONTH.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

> FEARS OVER ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ARE NOT NEW, BUT ONCE AGAIN, TOP STAFFERS FROM WITHIN THE LARGEST AI COMPANIES ARE SOUNDING THE ALARM.

MORE THAN 1000 SENIOR EMPLOYEES SIGNED A LETTER, WARNING AI COULD SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL.

THIS COMES AFTER OPENAI'S MODELS WENT ROGUE DURING TESTING AND HAT INSIDE AND OUTSIDE COMPANY.

SILICON VALLEY REMAINS DIVIDED ON THE BEST WAY FORWARD NOW, THOUGH, BUT ONE THING IS CLEAR, THAT TECHNOLOGY IS ADVANCING AT LIGHTNING SPEED.

FOR MORE ON ALL OF THIS, WE WANT TO BRING AN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MOZILLA FOUNDATION, NABIHA SYED.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

MORE THAN 1000 STAFF AT THE WORLD'S LEADING AI LAB SIGNED AN OPEN LETTER URGING THE U.S.

TO SLOW THE PACE OF AI DEVELOPMENT.

MANY SIGNATORIES ARE FROM WHAT WE CALL THOSE FRONTIER ORGANIZATIONS, OPENAI, ANTHROPIC, REALLY AT THE CUTTING EDGE OF WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

AND HERE'S WHAT THEY SAID, WE WANT TO POINT OUT WHAT WAS ACTUALLY IN THE LETTER.

WE REQUEST THAT THE US GOVERNMENT SUPPORT AN INTERNATIONAL EFFORT TO DEVELOP THE TECHNICAL AND GOVERNANCE TOOLS NEEDED TO DELIBERATELY PACE THE FRONTIER OF AUTOMATED AI DEVELOPMENT.

NOW, THESE COMPANIES ARE RACING FORWARD, IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, WE ARE LED TO BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE TO, WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS, WHEN YOU SEE THIS, AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NO PROMISE OF EFFECTIVE AI REGULATION IN THE FUTURE RIGHT NOW?

IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE WE ARE ASKING THE QUESTION, JUST BECAUSE WE CAN DO SOMETHING, SHOULD WE ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY IN THAT WAY?

BUT THE QUESTION ABOUT PACING BOILS DOWN TO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN PRACTICALITY, IF PACING MEANS THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MANDATORY INDEPENDENT REPORTING, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TRANSPARENCY REPORTS THAT ARE SO DETAILED THAT CYBER SECURITY DEFENDERS CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEFEND AN INCREASED WORKSPACE THEN THAT'S GREAT, IF WE HAVE INCREASED WONDERFUL, BUT THERE'S ALSO A UNIVERSE WHERE THIS PACING CONVERSATIONS ACTUALLY JUST A FORM OF REGULATORY CAPTURE.

IT'S A WAY TO SAY, HEY, THOSE OPEN MODELS, COMING FROM CHINA ARE GETTING PRETTY CLOSE TO U.S.

INDUSTRY, LET'S BECOME A SAFETY CARTEL, LET'S BE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN ASK THE PROVIDE THE SOLUTION AND POTENTIALLY THE HARMS, AND THAT'S JUST NOT GOING TO SERVE ANYONE IN THE WORLD, CERTAINLY NOT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

YOU HAVE COMPETING MODELS OF WHAT REGULATIONS SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

I WANT TO GET TO THAT BEFORE THAT, LET'S ZOOM IN ON THIS INCIDENT INVOLVING THE TEST MODELS.

WE ARE SAYING WENT ROGUE BECAUSE IT BROKE OUT OF THE SANDBOX, YES, IT'S SUPPOSED TO PLAY IN THE SANDBOX JUST LIKE YOU TELL YOUR CHILDREN.

WHEN I READ THE DETAILS OF THIS, I WAS ASTOUNDED.

THIS MODEL TRIED TO HACK SEVERAL COMPANIES AND THE STARTUP, HUGGING FACE, WHICH THAT'S NOT SOME STARTUP, IT'S A SOPHISTICATED CYBER SECURITY COMPANY THAT KNOWS WHAT TO DO AND ALERTED OPENAI.

WHEN YOU LEARNED OF THIS, AND I WANT TO SAY, YOU ARE AN ACCOMPLISHED LAWYER FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE SHOULD BE THE NEXT STEPS BY GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THIS REALLY COULD HAVE CAUSED REAL HARM.

ABSOLUTELY, AND WE ARE STILL LEARNING SO MUCH BUT THE FIRST THING THAT STRUCK ME WAS, WE ONLY KNOW ABOUT THE DETAILS BECAUSE HUGGING FACE DECIDED VOLUNTARILY, TO DISCLOSE IN GREAT DETAIL WHAT HAPPENED.

WE DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT IT BECAUSE THERE IS A REGULATION THAT MANDATES MANDATORY , RAPID, DETAILED DISCLOSURE, AND YOU WOULD HAVE THAT IN MANY OTHER INDUSTRIES AND YOU WOULD SEE THAT IN THE AIRLINES INDUSTRY AND WE ARE AT THAT STAGE IN AI WHERE IF WE ARE SEEING THESE HARMS, WE'VE GOT TO PULL BACK AND SAY, WHAT IS ARCHITECTURE THAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING WHEN IT'S HAPPENING, THAT THERE IS A WAY TO REMEDIATE, THAT WE HAVE INDEPENDENT RESEARCHERS, OPENAI IS HIRING A FIRM TO AUDIT WHAT HAPPENED.

WELL, I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A UNIVERSE AND WE DON'T NEED TO, WHERE, SOMEONE HIRES THEIR OWN REFEREE, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF A REGULATORY REGIME TO SET INDEPENDENT STANDARDS AND MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ALL PLAYING THE SAME RULES AND THE TIME IS NOW.

THE TIME IS NOW, ARE YOU GETTING AND INDICATE -- INDICATION THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OR EUROPE OR ELSEWHERE ARE LOOKING AT THIS?

IN EUROPE, THERE'S A LOT OF CONSIDERATION AROUND AI REGULATION AND THERE HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.

THE CYBER SECURITY FRONTIER IS ONE THAT'S BEEN OF GREAT COLLABORATION AND COORDINATION.

AND SO, YOU DO HAVE THE EMERGENCE OF YOU KNOW, AUDITING STANDARDS AND TRANSPARENCY DISCLOSURES, AND I THINK EVERYONE IS LOOKING TO SEE WHETHER THOSE PROPOSALS WOULD MAP ONTO THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT .

IN THE UNITED STATES, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S BEEN ATTEMPTS BY STATES TO TRY AND REGULATE.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NOT SHOWN A LOT OF INITIATIVE THERE BUT THE STAKES ARE GETTING HIGHER, IN WAYS THAT ARE NOTABLE AND PRESENT REAL DANGER.

I MEAN, WE KNOW ABOUT HUGGING FACE, APPARENTLY THERE WERE THREE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, AND AGAIN, THAT'S JUST WHAT WE KNOW NOW.

THIS IS ENOUGH TO CREATE A LOT OF CONCERN IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SO WE ARE HOPEFUL THERE WILL BE SOME MOVEMENT.

IN A WAY THAT SERVES THE PEOPLE, AND DOESN'T JUST SERVE THE BUSINESS INTERESTS OF A FEW LARGE ORGANIZATIONS.

I WOULD NOTE, THAT WOULD BE REACTIVE, NOT PROACTIVE.

GIVEN OPENAI AND THIS ROGUE EVENT, WE WANT TO RETURN TO THE LETTER FROM THE LEADING AI RESEARCHERS AND IT BEGINS WITH THE LINE, AI COULD HELP CREATE A DRAMATICALLY BETTER FUTURE BUT THAT OUTCOME IS NOT GUARANTEED.

YOU KNOW, WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT THE TRADE-OFFS BETWEEN THE RISKS AND THE DIVIDENDS OF AI, AND WE ARE SEEING SOME LEAPS IN SCIENTIFIC MEDICAL RESEARCH BUT I WANT TO GET AWAY FROM THE APOCALYPSE RIGHT NOW WITH YOU.

WHAT DO YOU SEE THAT COULD GIVE OUR VIEWERS THE OPTIMISTIC BASED CASE FOR AI AND CID --IN SOCIETY ESPECIALLY IF THE REGULATIONS ARE PUT INTO PLACE?

THERE'S SO MUCH ROOM FOR OPTIMISM.

IF YOU LOOK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSE TO PROBLEMS AND ARE USING AI NOT TO REPLACE THEIR LABOR, BUT ACTUALLY, TO AUGMENT WHAT THEY DO.

SO WE PUT OUT A CALL FROM MOZILLA ASKING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TO SUBMIT PROJECT IDEAS THAT WOULD HELP USE AI TO ENHANCE DEMOCRACY, NOT DIMINISH IT, TOP OF MIND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WE GOT PROPOSALS FROM 114 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WITH EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE USING AI TO PARSE THROUGH THOUSANDS OF VIDEOS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AND SPEED UP THE PROCESS OF REVIEW AND BUILDING A CASE.

WHO ARE USING AI TO TRACK GOVERNMENT SPENDING, AND IDENTIFY PATTERNS THAT COULD LEAD TO CORRUPTION OR OTHER ANOMALIES THAT NEEDED TO BE REPORTED.

THERE'S PROPOSALS USING AI TO SUPPLEMENT AND HELP JOURNALISTS DO WHAT USED TO TAKE A TEAM OF 50 PEOPLE, MAYBE YOU CAN DO WITH TWO OR THREE.

AND THERE'S ADVANCES IN HEALTHCARE AND OTHERS, AND REALLY, THE KEY HERE IS, IT'S NOT ABOUT FOCUSING ON WHAT THE INTELLIGENCE CAN DO.

BUT WHAT INSTITUTIONS AND COURAGEOUS INDIVIDUALS CHOOSE TO USE IT FOR.

IF YOU HAVE INSTITUTIONS THAT SAY I DON'T WANT TO REPLACE HUMAN BEINGS, I WANT TO AUGMENT WHAT WE DO.

I WANT TO HAVE A BETTER DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH SITUATION WITH SOME OF THE ENORMOUS PROBLEMS OF OUR DAY WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE, EDUCATION, HEALTHCARE ACCESS, GENDER EQUITY, AND THE TOOLS ARE REALLY USEFUL BUT THEN IF YOU HAVE PEOPLE SOLELY MOTIVATED BY PROFIT, WHO LOOK AT THIS TECHNOLOGY AND SAY, HOW CAN I SQUEEZE OUT A COUPLE MORE DOLLARS OBVIOUSLY THOSE INSTITUTIONS ARE HAVING DIFFERENT INCENTIVES AND IT WON'T YIELD THE BENEFIT THAT COULD BE POSSIBLE HERE.

I'M NOT SURE THE WORLD HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT DEMOCRATIZING THAT INTERNET LET I WANT TO GET TO THE FASCINATING POINT FOR OUR VIEWERS, WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU MET WITH POPE LEO BEFORE HE RELEASED HIS, ON AI AND HE WARNED ABOUT THE DANGERS THAT CAN ARISE FROM AS YOU SAY, PLACING PROFIT OVER HUMAN WELL- BEING.

YOUR ORGANIZATION, MOZILLA, IS FUNDING PROJECTS ON AI, CIVIL RIGHTS, DEMOCRACY.

I'M WONDERING WHAT THAT MEETING WITH THE POPE WAS LIKE, WAS A BACK AND FORTH?

WAS HE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS OR DID YOU COME AWAY WITH DIFFERENT INSIGHTS INTO WHAT AI COULD DO?

IT WAS A WONDERFUL ENGAGEMENT WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE ABOUT MORE LEADERSHIP, AND THE NECESSITY OF COURAGE IN THIS MOMENT, TO NOT JUST SPEAK TRUTH ABOUT THE DYNAMICS THAT WE ARE SEEING WHICH HE DID SO BEAUTIFULLY IN HIS ENCYCLICAL, BUT THE BEAUTY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN THE SPACE TO SUPPORT, BUILD, TO RESOURCE AND FIND THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY DOING THIS WORK.

AND THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

BAD, AND IT'S REAL.

THE BAD CAPABILITIES ARE ABSOLUTELY REAL AND WE SHOULD NOT DISCOUNT THOSE BUT WHAT MORAL COURAGE AND LEADERSHIP REQUIRES IS WE SEE THE OPPORTUNITY AND WE PUT OUR ATTENTION AND RESOURCE THERE, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE WORLD, WHETHER IT IS GOVERNMENT, PHILANTHROPIES, OTHER INSTITUTIONS , AGAIN, COURAGEOUS PEOPLE, WHO ARE SAYING, THERE IS A WAY TO USE THIS TECHNOLOGY FOR GOOD AND THAT'S WHERE WE WILL SPEND OUR TIME AND ENERGY FIGURING OUT AND TRY TO OUTPACE THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE IT FOR BAD.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD STARTED IN TERMS OF THE MODELS AND PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING LUCK, SOME OF THEM ARE COMING OUT OF CHINA AND MANY PEOPLE AND OTHER CORNER SAY WE NEED TO KEEP UP WITH THAT.

MARK ZUCKERBERG PUBLISHED AN OP- ED IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, HE UNSURPRISINGLY WAS OPTIMISTIC ABOUT AI.

YOU SEE THOSE COMMERCIALS RUNNING ALL OVER THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

AND YET, SO MUCH DEVELOPMENT BEHIND THE LEADING AI MODELS RIGHT NOW, AS YOU POINTED OUT, IT'S PRIVATE.

HOW DO YOU GET TO WHAT HE IS SAYING BECAUSE HE SAYING LOOK, THESE SHOULD BE OPEN MODELS AND YET SO MANY OTHERS ARE TELLING US, WAIT, HOLD UP, THOSE OPEN MODELS ARE DANGEROUS.

SO WHICH IS IT?

I THINK IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT IS BAD AND WHAT IS GOOD, IT'S HOW IT'S BEING USED AND THE HUGGING FACE EXAMPLE WE LIVED THROUGH IS A GREAT EXAMPLE THAT FLIPS THE NARRATIVE THAT ACTUALLY, IT WAS THE OPEN MODELS THAT HUGGING FACE USED TO DEFEND AGAINST THE CYBER SECURITY THREAT THAT WAS BROUGHT UPON THEM BY A CLOSED MODEL IN A TEST FROM OPENAI.

SO, YOU SEE THAT OPEN MODELS, THEY ALLOW YOU TO BYPASS SAFEGUARDS IN WAYS THAT CAN BE BAD BUT ALSO WAYS TO DEFEND YOURSELF IF SOMEONE HAPPENS TO MAKE A MISTAKE.

I THINK ENTRUSTING A FEW COMPANIES IN THE UNITED STATES, WITH THE PROTECTIVE AND OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES IS CENTRALIZING RISK IN A WAY THAT'S REALLY TERRIFYING.

SO IT'S NOT OFTEN I FIND MYSELF AGREEING WITH MARK ZUCKERBERG BUT ON THIS ONE, I'VE GOT TO SAY, I SEE WHERE HE'S COMING FROM, AND I DO AGREE.

IF WE WANT A FUTURE WHERE THIS INTELLIGENCE CAN BE USED BY INSTITUTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS IN WAYS THAT ARE INNOVATIVE, ACTUALLY APPLIED TO PROBLEMS, NOT JUST ORIENTED AROUND PROFIT, WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO MAKE IT SUSTAINABLE FOR PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

ONE THING I THINK IS INTERESTING IS THE DISPARITY IN GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE ON THIS.

STANFORD DID A STUDY JUST LAST YEAR WHERE THEY FOUND THE UNITED STATES AT THE LOWEST CONFIDENCE LEVEL AND AI ACTUALLY BEING GOOD FOR THEIR WELL-BEING, BUT COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA, COUNTRIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA, HAD QUITE HIGH OPTIMISM THAT THEIR GOVERNMENTS AND THEIR INSTITUTIONS WOULD BE USING THIS TO LOWER THEIR HEALTHCARE COST, PROVIDE TO THEM OR ACCESS, BUILD BETTER JOBS, REMOVE JOBS THAT ARE DANGEROUS AND AUTOMATE THEM AND LEAVE US TIME FOR LEISURE, AND OUR LOVED ONES AND CARE.

THAT IS NOT THE MENTAL MODEL THAT MANY IN THE UNITED STATES ARE OPERATING WITH.

BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT WE CAN GET THERE, IT'LL JUST REQUIRE DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS, NOT ONLY MOTIVATED BY PROFIT, ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

I'M MUCH MORE ENCOURAGED AFTER SPEAKING WITH YOU.

WE LEARNED A LOT AND TO THINK ABOUT SOMETHING YOU POSTED ONLINE, YOU TALK ABOUT AI BEING TRUSTWORTHY, YOU WENT THROUGH TRUST AND WHERE THE, I SUGGEST THOSE ARE HUMAN TRAITS.

WE SHOULDN'T ATTRIBUTE EITHER TO AI BUT IT IS FASCINATING THAT PEOPLE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD ARE MORE OPTIMISTIC.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> NICARAGUA, DEMOCRACY IS SLIPPING FURTHER OUT OF REACH.

FOR 19 YEARS, PRESIDENT ORTEGA HAS STEADILY TIGHTENED HIS AUTHORITARIAN GRIP.

HE RECENTLY VOWED TO AND FUTURE ELECTIONS AND IS SEEKING TO EXTEND THE PRESIDENTIAL TERM FROM 6 TO 7 YEARS AND PERHAPS BEYOND.

MEANWHILE, ORTEGA'S REGIME HAS GROWN INCREASINGLY BRUTAL, CRUSHING DISSENT AND DRIVING MANY OPPOSITION FIGURES INTO AMONG THEM IS THE RENOWNED NOVELIST AND POET, GIOCONDA BELLI, SHE JOINS THE PROGRAM NOW FROM SPAIN TO DISCUSS WHAT HOPE REMAINS FOR NICARAGUANS AND WE WELCOME YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU, NICE TO SEE YOU.

SO, IN TERMS OF DANIEL ORTEGA AND HIS ANNOUNCEMENT, NICARAGUA WILL NO LONGER HOLD ELECTIONS, NOTE PRETENSE OF DEMOCRACY HERE.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION, WERE YOU SURPRISED?

WELL, I THINK THIS IS A SUCCESSION PROBLEM, THIS COUPLE HAS A CODEPENDENT ARRANGEMENT.

SHE IS THE ONE WHO ADMINISTERS THE STATE AND SHE'S THE HEAD OF PROPAGANDA.

SHE NEEDS HIM TO GIVE HER LEGITIMACY, AND HE NEEDS HER TO DO ALL THOSE THINGS THAT IT LIKES TO DO.

I WANT TO CLARIFY, WHO WE WHICH IS BASICALLY A COLEADER, SHE'S CO-PRESIDENT.

GO AHEAD.

THEY MADE HER CO-PRESIDENT AND CHANGE THE INSTITUTION IN 2025.

IT'S THE ONLY CASE I KNOW OF.

THIS COUPLE, THEY ARE NOT PART THAT'S NOT POPULAR, AND THEY KNOW THAT.

THEY KNOW THAT SINCE 2018 WHEN PEOPLE ROSE UP AND YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE COUNTRY WENT ON THIS HUGE PROTEST, AND THEY WANTED THEM TO LEAVE, SO THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT POPULAR ANYMORE, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO SUBMIT THEMSELVES TO THE POPULAR VOTE.

SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS, YOU KNOW, THEY NEED A RIGGED ELECTION TO WIN, SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO REMAIN IN POWER, WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH AN ELECTION.

AND SO, THEY HAVE INVENTED YOU THAT THEY WOULD HAVE AN ELECTION, NOT IN 2027, LIKE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO, BUT IN 2028, AND THEN WHOEVER COMES AS THE PRESIDENT OR VICE PRESIDENT IN THE ELECTION, WILL BE RENEWABLE.

THE POWER, WILL BE RENEWABLE FOR SEVEN MORE YEARS.

SO THAT SOUNDS VERY STRANGE BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW THEY WOULD DO THAT, WHO WOULD APPROVE OF THAT TO BE RENEWED AND WE KNOW ROSARIO AND DANIEL ORTEGA WILL RUN TOGETHER AGAIN IN THE NEXT ELECTION, SO THEY WELL, YOU KNOW, RIG THE ELECTIONS TO BE ELECTED, IF THEY WERE TO THEN THEY WOULD BE IN POWER UNTIL 2040.

AFTER THEY ARE DEAD, THEY WOULD STILL BE THE PRESIDENT.

WE WERE LOOKING AT A VIDEO OF HIS ANNOUNCEMENT BUT NOW I WANT YOU AND OUR VIEWERS TO LISTEN FOR A MOMENT TO THAT ANNOUNCEMENT EARLIER THIS MONTH, LISTEN.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] THEY ARE CROUCHING, WAITING TO ATTACK.

THEY WOULD LOVE TO WIN ELECTIONS TO MAKE WISHES COME TRUE BUT THEY CAN FORGET ABOUT IT.

THERE WILL BE NO MORE ELECTIONS SO THAT THEY CANNOT TRY TO SEIZE THE GOVERNMENT OR TAKE POWER.

SO DURING THAT, HE WAS SPEAKING AT AN EVENT AND WE SAW FIREWORKS CELEBRATING THE 47th ANNIVERSARY OF THE SANDINISTA REVOLUTION, SOMETHING THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO DEPOSE DICTATORS FOREVER IN PERPETUITY IN NICARAGUA.

IN TERMS OF DOING IT ON THE ANNIVERSARY, AND THE FACT THAT YOU SAW HIM, HE'S NOT OFTEN SEEN IN PUBLIC, WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU BELIEVE THAT SENT?

WELL IT'S A CRUEL MESSAGE BECAUSE HE IS ANNOUNCING THE DICTATORSHIP IN A DAY THAT WE CELEBRATED GETTING RID OF THE 43-YEAR-OLD DICTATORSHIP.

SO, THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS.

HE JUST ONCE, HE WANTS TO HAVE THE ATTENTION OF THE PRESS THAT DAY, THEN THEY FREAKED OUT BECAUSE WHEN HE CAME OUT WITH THAT ANNOUNCEMENT, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY PROTESTED.

GOVERNMENTS CALL THEIR AMBASSADORS BACK HOME AND THERE WAS A WHOLE, YOU KNOW, REACTION OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AND ORTEGA AND ROSARIO WERE WORRIED AND THEY CALL THE AMBASSADORS AND NOW THEY SAY THEY WILL HAVE ELECTIONS BUT THEY WILL HAVE THE KIND OF ELECTIONS THAT WILL BE RULED BY THEM AND THEIR OWN RULES BECAUSE THEY SAY, IT'S FOR THE SOVEREIGNTY OF NICARAGUA.

THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO THEM THAN THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE PEOPLE OF NICARAGUA, BECAUSE THEY DECIDE WHAT IS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF NICARAGUA.

AS IF THEY HAVE OWNERSHIP OVER THE COUNTRY IN TOTALITY.

WE HAVE TO POINT OUT TO OUR VIEWERS IN THE 1970S, YOU FOUGHT FOR THIS MOVEMENT, RISKING LIFE AND LIMB, YOU WERE ALONGSIDE DANIEL ORTEGA, TO TRY AND TAKE DOWN THE RIGHT WING DICTATOR, DID YOU EVER THINK THAT ORTEGA HIMSELF WOULD RIVAL THIS DICTATORSHIP , THAT YOU HAVE SACRIFICED SO MUCH TO REALLY UPROOT SOME 47 YEARS AGO?

NO, I NEVER THOUGHT THIS WOULD HAPPEN, BECAUSE, I DIDN'T KNOW ORTEGA VERY WELL UNTIL THE REVOLUTION TRIUMPHED, AND HE WAS NOT THE BIG LEADER THAT HE BECAME, BECAUSE THE OTHER EIGHT PEOPLE WHO WERE THE COLLECTIVE LEADERSHIP OF THE REVOLUTION DECIDED THAT HE WOULD TAKE THAT ROLE, BUT HE WAS NOT REALLY A HUGE LEADER.

YOU KNOW, FOR ME, IT'S ALWAYS A LITTLE BIT, WELL IT BOTHERS ME THAT HE COMES OUT LIKE THE BIG LEADER OF THE REVOLUTION BECAUSE HE WASN'T.

AND HE NEVER SHOT A GUN.

HE WAS NOT IN THE STRUGGLE BUT HE WAS A GUY THAT WAS ABLE, BECAUSE HE WAS NOT SO COLORFUL, THE OTHER ONE THOUGHT HE DIDN'T HAVE SUCH A LARGE EGO, THEY TRUSTED HIM TO BE A FIGURE THAT COULD BE A CONCILIATORY FIGURE BETWEEN ALL OF THEM WHO HAVE BEEN EQUALS.

AND HE BECAME THE SYMBOL OF THE REVOLUTION.

BUT I NEVER THOUGHT THAT OUR DREAMS, EVERYBODY WHO DIED, YOU KNOW, I WAS PART OF A GROUP OF 10 AND ONLY TWO OF US SURVIVED.

I SAW SO MANY PEOPLE DIE AND SO MANY PEOPLE GIVE ALL THEIR LIVES TO THIS CAUSE AND TO THIS DREAM OF FREEDOM.

NO MORE DICTATORSHIPS IN NICARAGUA.

IT'S VERY SHOCKING TO FIND THIS SITUATION AGAIN, AND TO SEE THEM DOING ALL OF THIS, AND TO SEE WHAT THEY DID IN 2018, AND THE FEAR THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOW IN NICARAGUA, PEOPLE ARE SO AFRAID.

AND THEY WOULD NOT BE IN POWER IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE ARMY AND THE POLICE AND THEY WEREN'T CLAMPING DOWN ON ALL THE RIGHTS OF NICARAGUANS.

WE HAVE 452 PEOPLE, I'M SORRY -- NO, YOU GO AHEAD.

450 PEOPLE, THEY WERE DEPRIVED OF THEIR CITIZENSHIP IN 2023.

AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO COME BACK TO NICARAGUA, IF THEY ARE RELATED TO SOMEBODY WHO WAS CALLED A TRAITOR BY THEM.

AND IS A VERY HARD LINE TOWARDS THE EXILES, YOU KNOW, THEY TOOK AWAY EVERYTHING WE OWNED, OUR HOUSES, NOW, THEY KEEP DOING THAT OTHER PEOPLE AND THEY DON'T GIVE PASSPORTS, YOU KNOW, THEY LEAVE PEOPLE IN A SITUATION OF STATELESSNESS, WHICH IS VERY HARD, 200 JOURNALISTS ARE IN EXILED IN NICARAGUA.

THERE IS NO LONGER ANY INDEPENDENT PRESS.

YOU AS A POET AND NOVELIST, IN EXILE THERE IN SPAIN YOURSELF, GIVEN THE FACT THAT YOU FOUGHT SO HARD TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS DEMOCRACY IN NICARAGUA.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT CAN REVERSE THIS SITUATION NOW?

WHAT HOPE DO YOU HAVE THAT THOSE IN NICARAGUA CAN TRY AND GET IT BACK ONTO FIRM, DEMOCRATIC FOOTING?

ARE YOU FEELING HELPLESS AT THIS POINT, OR DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS SOME OPTIMISM?

WELL, I HAVE HOPE BECAUSE HOPE IS THE LAST THING YOU LOSE, AND BESIDES, I BELIEVE THE PEOPLE OF NICARAGUA ARE STRONG AND BRAVE, BUT RIGHT NOW, WE ARE UNDER SO MUCH SURVEILLANCE, SO MANY SITUATIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE JUST TAKEN OFF THE STREETS, DISAPPEARED, THE FEAR IS SUCH THAT I DON'T SEE THE SITUATION WITHIN NICARAGUA GETTING DIFFERENT.

I THINK THE OAS HAS CALLED FOR A SPECIAL MEETING, AND I HOPE THAT IN THAT MEETING, THEY TELL ORTEGA, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE UNTIL 2027, LIKE IT WAS AGREED IN THE 2025 CONSTITUTION TO DO ELECTIONS OR OTHERWISE, WE CALL ONTO A TRANSITIONAL PERIOD.

IT SOUNDS A LITTLE DREAMY ON MY PART, BUT I HAVE SEEN DREAMS COME TRUE BECAUSE THE REVOLUTION HAPPENED.

BUT YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW, TO BE HONEST, WITHIN NICARAGUA, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CHANCE OF ANY KIND OF MOVEMENT LIKE WE DID.

BUT OUTSIDE OF NICARAGUA, WE HAVE ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO WHERE THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DEMOCRATIC NICARAGUA.

UNDERSTOOD.

GIOCONDA BELLI WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE NOW BUT WE WILL CERTAINLY CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS AND SEE IF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

I HOPE SO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> SO, WHEN THE US NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS UNVEILED ITS AMERICA 250 BAY READ PROGRAM, OUR NEXT GUEST REALIZED THERE WERE NO BLACK WOMEN ON THE LIST OF AUTHORS, SO LITERARY ACTIVISTS MARITA GOLDEN AND GWEN McKINNEY CREATED SOMETHING OF THEIR OWN .

THE NEW NATIONAL READING INITIATIVE CELEBRATING THE LIVES AND LEGACIES OF BLACK WOMEN THROUGH 25 BIOGRAPHIES AND COMMUNITY READING PROGRAMS.

ON AMERICA'S 250th BIRTHDAY.

HERE THEY ARE WITH MICHELE MARTIN.

THANKS, PAULA, GWEN McKINNEY, MARITA GOLDEN, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION.

WE APPRECIATE BEING HERE.

WHEN, LET ME START WITH YOU, HOW DID YOU NOTICE THAT THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT LIST OF BIG RAIDS, THE RATES THAT THEY WERE SUGGESTING AS A WAY TO CELEBRATE AMERICA'S 250, DIDN'T HAVE ANY BLACK WOMEN AUTHORS ON IT?

ACTUALLY MICHELE, WE BACKED INTO IT, MARCH 8th IS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY, AND WE WERE PREPARING AN EVENT WITH THE D.C.

PUBLIC LIBRARY, REALLY CELEBRATING BLACK WOMEN VOICES.

ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES WAS DOING THE RESEARCH ON DIFFERENT AND WHEN SHE DID, SHE DID A PIECE FOR OUR WEBSITE ABOUT THE BIG READ, AND LIKE MAYBE MIDWAY ALMOST TOWARDS THE END, SHE MENTIONED THE TITLES, AND NOTED THAT NONE OF THE 24 TITLES WERE AUTHORED BY A BLACK WOMAN.

AND ACTUALLY MICHELE, IF I CAN JUST SAY, OF THE 24, 14 WERE WHITE MEN, FIVE WERE WHITE WOMEN, THREE WERE BLACK MEN, ONE WAS A NATIVE AMERICAN WOMAN AND ONE WAS A LATINA WOMAN.

AND THAT SEEMED NOT ONLY AMAZING, BUT IT WAS UNSURPRISING, AND WE SAID, NOW, THIS, FOR US, RATHER THAN TO PROTEST, WE NEED TO PRODUCE, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT BLACK WOMEN'S STORIES, BY AND ABOUT BLACK WOMEN CAN BE EFFECTIVELY TOLD.

AND WHEN I SAY WE, I MEAN, UNERASED AND BLACK WOMEN SPEAK, THAT WAS IT, MICHELE, AND WAS PRETTY MUCH A FOUNDATIONAL PREMISE OF OUR WORK, TO UNERASE BLACK WOMEN.

DO YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU HEARD ABOUT THIS?

I HAVE WORKED WITH UNERASED FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

AND SO, THEY REACHED OUT TO ME, AND ASKED ME IF I WOULD BE WILLING TO BE ON AN ADVISORY TEAM TO COLLECT A NUMBER OF BOOKS THAT COULD BE PUT ON THEIR 25 RECOMMENDED BIOGRAPHIES OF BLACK WOMEN OF COURSE, THAT WASN'T EASY YES, I WAS VERY EXCITED AND GRATIFIED TO BE PART OF A PROCESS THAT WAS INSPIRED AND EDUCATIONAL FOR ME.

SOMETHING DISAPPOINTING BUT NOT SURPRISING, MARITA, DID YOU FEEL THE SAME WAY?

IT WAS SHOCKING, DISAPPOINTING BUT NOT SURPRISING BECAUSE, I SAW THE NONINCLUSION OF BLACK WOMEN'S VOICES AND STORIES ON THE LIST AS A CONTINUATION OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE A DIRECT STRATEGY TO ERASE, NOT JUST AFRICAN AMERICAN CULTURE FROM OUR HISTORICAL STORY BUT IN A PARTICULARLY HURTFUL AND UNIQUE WAY THE VOICES OF BLACK WOMEN.

SO I THINK FOR BOTH OF US IT WAS SURPRISINGLY GIVEN THE POLITICAL TEMPERATURE RIGHT NOW, WE SAID, THIS IS PAR FOR THE COURSE.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT, THOUGH, SOME PEOPLE WOULD FIND THAT SURPRISING LIKE THE NOBEL PRIZE WINNER, TONI MORRISON, BLACK WOMEN HAVE HAD SUCH AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE LITERATURE OF THE 20th CENTURY, AND BEYOND.

WELL, WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION A WEEK AFTER SIGNAGE HAS BEEN POSTED ON THE AMERICAN HISTORY MUSEUM AT THE SMITHSONIAN, DISCREDITING MUCH OF WHAT THAT MUSEUM SHOWS AS THE MULTICULTURAL STORY OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

AND SO, WE CAN LOOK AT THE POLITICAL AND SOCIAL LANDSCAPE, AND SEE THIS AS EVEN AN EFFORT TO MOVE INTO THE REALM OF CULTURE, LITERATURE , AND CONTINUE WHAT APPEARS TO BE AND WHAT CAN PERCEIVE TO BE BY SOME OF US, AS A POLICY THAT IS WIDE- RANGING.

THIS IDEA THAT THIS WOULD BE AN ALTERNATE LIST, AS IT WERE?

I THINK THAT COLLECTIVELY, AND I WANT TO GIVE TRACY McGEE WHO'S THE PROJECT DIRECTOR SOME CREDIT FOR THIS BECAUSE SHE'S THE ONE WHO SERVICED THIS BLISS.

PART OF IT IS A MISSION, IT'S A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK THAT WE DO, TO TELL OUR STORY, AND AS MARITA SAID, THE ERASURE OF BLACK WOMEN, I MEAN, IT'S BAKED IN, IN THIS MOMENT, ACROSS POLITICS, CULTURE, PUBLIC POLICY, YOU LOOK AT THE LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS CARLA HAYDEN, THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL, LETITIA JAMES, THE FED BOARD OF GOVERNORS, LISA COOK, ALL BLACK WOMEN WHO, WERE SOUNDLY TARGETED.

WE ARE NOT PARANOID, MICHELE.

WE SEE THE REALITY, IT'S NOT JUST THE ASSAULT ON DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION , IT IS A ROUNDED ASSAULT ON BLACK WOMEN TO ERASE AND TO DENY US WHAT WE REFUSE TO BE DENIED.

SO MARITA, WHY BIOGRAPHIES?

I THINK PEOPLE ARE PRETTY MUCH FAMILIAR WITH WRITERS RANGING FROM TONI MORRISON TO TERRY McMILLAN, FICTION HAS REALLY GRABBED THE IMAGINATION OF THE AMERICAN READING PUBLIC IN THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS.

AND THERE ARE MANY PROMINENT AFRICAN AMERICAN FICTION WRITERS THAT ARE PRETTY WELL KNOWN.

THE BEAUTY I THINK OF THIS LIST, IS A BIOGRAPHY HOLD A PARTICULAR PLACE IN THE CULTURE.

WHAT A BIOGRAPHY DOES, IS IT TAKES A SIGNIFICANT, DISTINGUISHED PERSON, AND PLACES THAT PERSON WITHIN A VERY LARGE, WIDE AND SWEEPING POLITICAL CONTEXT, FOR EXAMPLE, I'VE WRITTEN SEVERAL MEMOIRS, BUT A MEMOIR DOESN'T PLACE A PERSON IN THE BROAD SWEEP OF HISTORY.

IT DOESN'T PLACE A CHARACTER IN, IN TERMS OF THEIR GENERAL AND ABIDING INFLUENCE.

SO THESE BIOGRAPHIES DO SOMETHING VERY SPECIAL, IN TERMS OF INTRODUCING READERS TO DISTINGUISHED, GROUNDBREAKING BLACK WOMEN WHO, THEY MAY NOT BE FAMILIAR WITH.

SO WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THE LIST, FROM HARRIET TUBMAN TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ERASED, UNKNOWN, BUT WHO SHOULD BE KNOWN.

LET'S GO INTO SOME OF THE LIST.

AS YOU MENTIONED MARITA, IT INCLUDES NAMES THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD KNOW, HARRIET TUBMAN, IDA B WELLS, TONI MORRISON, ZORA NEALE HURSTON AND ALSO INTRODUCES READERS TO WOMEN, NAMES THEY MAY NOT KNOW, SO WHY DON'T WE JUST TAKE TURNS NAMES, GWEN, DO YOU WANT TO START?

ONE JUMPS OUT AT ME, THE STORY OF CALLIE HOUSE, NOT A HOUSEHOLD NAME BUT BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THE ORIGINAL MOTHER OF AMERICAN REPARATIONS.

AND THE AUTHOR, MARY FRANCES BERRY WHO IS A NOTED HISTORIAN, WAS JUST FASCINATED BY THE STORY AND STUMBLED ON CALLIE HOUSE, WHO WAS FROM HER HOME STATE OF TENNESSEE.

THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IS MY FACE IS BLACK, IT'S TRUE.

AND SHE WAS BONE --BORN JUST BEFORE EMANCIPATION, IN 1861 , AND SHE LAUNCHED TOWARDS THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY, A CAMPAIGN FOR PENSIONS, WHILE SHE WAS A WASHERWOMAN.

FOR WASHER WOMEN AND FORMALLY ENSLAVED PEOPLE.

WHAT DO THEY DO?

THEY THREW HER IN JAIL BUT CALLIE HOUSE, HER STORY, AS WE KNOW, THE REPARATIONS MOVEMENT HAS CONTINUED, SHE LAID THE BASIS FOR WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS REPARATIONS.

THAT WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITES.

OKAY, MARITA, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

I'M A NOVELIST AND SO ONE OF MY FAVORITES IS THE BOOK, DRIVEN TOWARD MADNESS BY NIKKI TAYLOR, WHO IS A SCHOLAR AT HOWARD UNIVERSITY, AND OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT TONI MORRISON, HER BUT, BELOVED IS RECOGNIZED AS A MASTERPIECE, AND INSPIRED BY AN ACTUAL INCIDENT WHERE AN ENSLAVED WOMAN FLED HER ENSLAVEMENT, AND RATHER THAN HAVE HER INFANT DAUGHTER BE TAKEN BACK INTO SLAVERY, SHE CHOSE TO KILL THAT CHILD.

NOW, MORRISON OF COURSE, TAKES MEDITATES ON IT, IN A WAY THAT ONLY SHE CAN DO FICTION, AND IT'S A POWERFUL STORY.

BUT DRIVEN TOWARD MADNESS IS A GREAT COMPANION TO BELOVED, BECAUSE HERE WE HAVE THE ACTUAL WOMAN, MARGARET GARNER, WE HAVE ACTUAL LIFE, THE DETAILS OF HER ACTUAL LIFE, BUT MORE PORTLY, WE HAVE A VERY DEEP STUDY OF A PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA THAT SHE, AS AN ENSLAVED WOMAN WOULD HAVE SUFFERED, WHICH WOULD HAVE ULTIMATELY LED HER TO TAKE A PROFOUNDLY TRAGIC ACT OF RESISTANCE ON BEHALF OF HERSELF AND HER CHILD.

SO IT'S A GREAT COMPANION TO A BOOK THAT WE NOW RECOGNIZE AS REQUIRED READING.

ONE OF MY FAVORITES ALSO, IS THE BOOK THAT JOY AND REID WROTE, A BOOK ABOUT METZGER EVERS AND MYRLIE EDITORS.

IT'S A LOVE STORY AND WE DON'T GET MANY LOVE STORIES FEATURING BLACK PEOPLE BUT IT'S A STORY OF HOW MYRLIE WAS A TEAM PLAYER WITH UNERASE BEFORE HE WAS ASSASSINATED AND THE YEARS AFTER HIS ASSASSINATION, SHE CONTINUED THAT WORK.

SO SHE IS A HEROIC FIGURE, A VERY INSPIRING FIGURE, BUT IT'S A BONUS BECAUSE AS I SAY, IT'S A LOVE STORY AND A BIOGRAPHY OF AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN.

A COUPLE OF THE BOOKS ON THIS LIST THAT I HAVE A PARTICULAR FONDNESS OF.

ONE IS, YOU MENTIONED THE ATROPHY OF MADAM CJ WALKER, AND HERE'S ANOTHER BOOK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL KNOW BECAUSE OF THE MOVIE, HIDDEN MARGO LEE, WHICH, YOU KNOW, SO ALL OF THESE BOOKS ARE NOT OBSCURE.

AND I NEED TO STRESS, THE CONTEXT OF THIS, WHICH I DID NOT MENTION, THAT BIG READ THAT GOT US PROMPTED INTO THIS, WAS TO CELEBRATE THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE, AND FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, BLACK WOMEN'S STORIES AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS NATIONS UNFOLDING, IS UNDENIABLE, NOT JUST TO 50 BUT YOU COULD GO BACK, MORE THAN 400 YEARS.

SO THE POINT OF THE STORY TELLING, THAT'S WHY WE CALL IT POWER READ, IS TO PRETTY MUCH REFLECT THAT BLACK WOMEN'S STORIES ARE GROUNDED IN THE AMERICAN HISTORY STORY.

AND ARE A PART OF THAT.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT WE SEE THIS LIST AS A STARTING POINT, RECOMMENDING PEOPLE TO USE THESE BOOKS IN THEIR BOOK CLUBS.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A COMPANION LIST OF BOOKS FOR CHILDREN , THAT ARE BIOGRAPHIES THAT CAN BE USED SO THAT ADULTS CAN READ THESE BIOGRAPHIES AS WELL AS THEIR CHILDREN .

SO WHEN THE NEA ANNOUNCED THE BIG READ INITIATIVE THEY RELEASED A PRESS RELEASE SAYING AND I QUOTE, THE GOALS OF THE NEA BIG READ ARE TO INSPIRE MEANINGFUL CONVERSATIONS, CELEBRATE LOCAL CREATIVITY, ELEVATE A WIDE VARIETY OF VOICES AND PERSPECTIVES, AND BUILD STRONGER CONNECTIONS IN EACH COMMUNITY.

AND THEY GO ON TO SAY THESE BOOKS CELEBRATE THE COUNTRY'S CULTURE, HISTORY AND RESILIENCE THROUGH THE EYES OF ITS CITIZENS.

HOW DOES EACH OF YOU RESPONDED TO THAT STATEMENT?

FIRST OF ALL, THE RESILIENCE, THE RESISTANCE, THE INNOVATION, THE POWER OF BLACK WOMEN IS INTEGRAL TO THE AMERICAN STORY, WHETHER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDEPENDENCE, OR WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN STORY THROUGH THE AGES.

BLACK WOMEN'S CONTRIBUTIONS AND VOICES AND LIVED EXPERIENCE, ARE PART OF THAT.

READ, HOW DO YOU RESPOND?

THAT STATEMENT MAKES THE NONINCLUSION OF BLACK WOMEN ON THE LIST EVEN HARDER TO BEAR BECAUSE THE HYPOCRISY OF IT, I FIND STUNNING .

I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU SAID WHEN WE STARTED, YOU SAID RATHER THAN PROTEST , YOU DECIDED WE ARE GOING TO CREATE, YOU KNOW, OUR OWN LIST.

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT ARGUE, WHY NOT PROTEST?

WHY NOT SAY, LOOK, WE ARE DONE WITH SEPARATE BUT EQUAL, AS IT WERE, AND THIS WAS A GRAVE OVERSIGHT , SOME SIGNIFICANT STORIES HAVE BEEN OVERLOOKED AND IT NEEDS TO BE A PART OF THE LARGER PICTURE.

I'M FINE WITH PROTESTS, BUT I'LL LEAVE IT TO OTHERS, BECAUSE MY FORTE, MORE THAN BEING A POLITICAL ACTIVIST, IS MORE OF A COMMUNICATIONS ACTIVIST, AND SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO REALLY TAP INTO THE IMAGINATION OF ESPECIALLY BLACK WOMEN.

SO, RATHER THAN PROTEST , AND THE STYLE THAT IS TRADITIONAL FOR BLACK WOMEN, WE MAKE A WAY OUT OF NO WAY.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

WE LOOKED AT THE SO-CALLED, BIG READ, THAT OMITTED US, THAT IGNORED US, AND WE DECIDED TO CREATE A POWER READ, MICHELE, THAT CELEBRATES US BUT ALSO, THAT OUR HISTORY LESSONS, NOT JUST FOR BLACK WOMEN BUT FOR EVERYONE.

I WANT TO SAY THAT I THINK THAT THE WOMEN ON THIS LIST WOULD HAVE BOTH PROTESTED THEIR EXCLUSION, AND THEY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED.

THE BEAUTY OF PROTESTING, OF COURSE, IS THAT IT CAN EMPOWER PEOPLE TO PHYSICALLY DO SOMETHING PARTICULARLY IN THE PUBLIC.

THE PROBLEM WITH PROTEST IS THAT IT CAN BE MISINTERPRETED , NARRATED IN WAYS THAT THE PROTESTERS CAN'T CONTROL.

WHEN YOU PRODUCE YOUR OWN DOCUMENT, YOU ARE CONTROLLING THE NARRATIVE, YOU ARE CONTROLLING THE DEFINITION OF IT.

BUT I DO THINK THAT WOMEN THAT WE ARE HONORING, WE ARE HONORING THEM IN THE LEGACY, REPRESENTING THEIR LEGACY OF ACTIVISM AND PRIDE AND TRIUMPH.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT THIS IS A LIST OF INSPIRING TRIUMPHANT STORIES.

MICHELE, I HAVE TO SAY THIS REALLY QUICKLY.

MY TEAM WOULD KILL ME IF I DIDN'T SAY, VISIT OUR WEBSITE, WE'VE GOT A FANTASTIC PAGE WITH THE STORIES, WITH A VIDEO ABOUT THE STORIES, AND YOU KNOW, TO LEARN A LITTLE MORE ABOUT ACTIVATION, BECAUSE WE JUST DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE BOOKS, WE WANT PEOPLE TO READ THE BOOKS.

WE WANT LIBRARIES TO HOST BOOK EVENTS FOR THE TITLES.

WE WANT BOOK CLUBS, TO FEATURE NOT MAYBE ONE OR TWO OR AS MANY AS THEY WANT, SCHOOLS AND CLUBS, TO REALLY EMBRACE IT, CHURCH GROUPS, I MEAN, WE REALLY ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS A CULTURALLY CURATED EVENT.

MARITA GOLDEN AND GWEN McKINNEY, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

WE ENJOYED THIS.

> NOW, WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SLEEP FOR OUR HEALTH, RIGHT?

BUT HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO GET A REALLY GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP?

I'M NOT GOING TO ANSWER THAT.

JAPAN IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST SLEEP DEPRIVED COUNTRIES.

IT'S ESTIMATED TO COST THE GOVERNMENT MORE THAN $100 BILLION A YEAR.

THE COUNTRY'S OWN PRIME MINISTER, FAMOUSLY SAID SHE SLEEPS LESS THAN THREE HOURS A NIGHT, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S ANYTHING TO BRAG ABOUT.

NOW RESEARCHERS ARE USING SCIENCE TO CREATE WEIRD AND WONDERFUL GADGETS THEY HOPE WILL LET PEOPLE SLEEP IN.

HERE'S WHAT MONTGOMERY DISCOVERED IN THIS REPORT FROM TOKYO.

THIS ISN'T YOUR AVERAGE JACKET.

IT'S ONE THAT SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO HELP YOU FALL ASLEEP, ANYTIME AND ANYWHERE.

SO I'M GOING TO TRY TO TAKE A 10 MINUTE NAP IN THIS CHAIR AND LET YOU KNOW HOW MY SLEEP WAS.

GOOD NIGHT.

THE FLASHING RED LIGHT INSIDE THE HOOD IS MEANT TO HELP ME DRIFT OFF WHILE THIS RING TRACKS MY HEART RATE AND BODY TEMPERATURE.

IF MY PULSE STAYS TOO HIGH, THE JACKET PLAYS A LULLABY.

I DON'T THINK I SLEPT BUT I FEEL VERY REFRESHED, AND I ACTUALLY FEEL A LITTLE MORE RELAXED THAN I DID WHEN I FIRST PUT ON THE JACKET.

PLACEBO EFFECT?

MAYBE.

EITHER WAY, HE SAYS THE GOAL IS TO TACKLE A NATIONAL ISSUE.

SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

IN JAPAN IT'S REALLY COOL TO WEAR, IT'S LIKE A BADGE OF HONOR.

IT'S BECOME A MAJOR SOCIAL PROBLEM IN JAPAN.

JAPAN SLEEPS LESS THAN ANY OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY.

RESEARCH HAS LINKED TOO LITTLE SLEEP TO AN INCREASED RISK OF HEART DISEASE, OBESITY AND STROKE BUT IT'S ALSO COSTING GDP EACH YEAR.

NOW, TO HELP THE NATION CATCH MORE DISEASE, THE GOVERNMENT IS BETTING ON SLEEP TECH, A MARKET EXPECTED TO TOP $98 MILLION BY 2027.

GADGETS INCLUDE A BOX YOU CAN SLEEP IN STANDING UP, A BED THAT LIES FLAT WHEN YOU DOZE OFF, EVEN A HOTEL THAT TRACKS YOUR NIGHT SLEEP.

IN HERE, AND INFRARED CAMERA CHECKS IF YOU SNORE.

THEN THERE'S THIS MACHINE IN THE BACK, ALSO TO MEASURE HOW MUCH YOU ARE SNORING AND THEY TELL ME THIS MATTRESS ALSO HELPS YOU IMPROVE YOUR SLEEP BECAUSE IT CAN TELL HOW MUCH YOU ARE MOVING IN YOUR SLEEP.

BUT DO THESE PRODUCTS ACTUALLY HELP OR ARE THEY JUST EXPENSIVE BEDTIME ACCESSORIES?

MANY OF THEM DON'T HAVE A SOLID EVIDENCE FOR THE EFFECT, UNFORTUNATELY.

HE SAYS JAPAN'S SLEEP PROBLEMS START YOUNG.

JAPANESE KIDS ARE ALREADY VERY MUCH SLEEP DEPRIVED.

PARTLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT ONLY REGULAR SCHOOL, MOST OF THEM ACTUALLY GO TO AFTERSCHOOL SCHOOL.

THE NATION IS TEACHING THEM THAT SLEEPINESS DURING THE DAYTIME IS A NORMAL THING, WHICH IS NOT TRUE.

SO THE BIGGEST SLEEP AID MIGHT NOT BE ANOTHER GADGET, BY CHANGING THE CULTURE AROUND REST.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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