Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP. >>> MAYORS OF THE WORLD UNITE TO BUILD A BETTER FAIRER WORLD OUT OF THE COVID AND RACISM PANDEMICS. I JOIN TWO OF THESE LEADERS FROM NEW ORLEANS AND MILAN. >>> I AM ASHAMED TO THIS DAY FOR VOTING FOR HIM. >> THESE ARE REPUBLICANS TALKING ABOUT THEIR PRESIDENT. SARAH LONGWELL, CO-FOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, IS ON THE PROGRAM. >>> PLUS -- >> INSOFAR AS WE ARE COATED WITH RACISM, CAPITALISM IS NOT GOING TO WORK. >> THE COLOR OF MONEY. TELLS OUR MICHELLE MARTIN HOW THE BANKING SYSTEM SHUTS OUT BLACK COMMUNITIES. >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU. >>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE. I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR WORKING FROM HOME IN LONDON. WE MUST NOT RETURN TO NORMAL AFTER THE CORONAVIRUS. THAT'S IS THE MESSAGE FROM THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL MAYORS TODAY AS THEY ANNOUNCE THEIR AGENDA FOR A GREEN AND JUST RECOVERY. THE TASK FORCE RELEASED A ROAD MAP FOR CITIES TO TACKLE INEQUALITY, AS WELL AS THE CLIMATE CRISIS THROUGHOUT THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND BEYOND. AND AS THE DISEASE DEEPENS, THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES GOING ALL-IN ON A GREEN RECOVERY. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE JOE BIDEN ANNOUNCING HIS OWN PLAN TO INVEST $2 TRILLION OVER FOUR YEARS ON CLEAN JOBS AND INFRASTRUCTURE. LISTEN TO HOW HE PUT IT. >> THESE INVESTMENTS ARE A WIN-WIN-WIN FOR THIS COUNTRY, CREATING JOBS, CUTTING ENERGY COSTS, PROTECTING OUR CLIMATE. THAT'S WHY TODAY I'M RELEASING MY PLAN TO MOBILIZE MILLIONS OF JOBS BY BUILDING SUSTAINABLE INFRASTRUCTURE AND AN EQUITABLE CLEAN ENERGY FUTURE. >> JOINING ME NOW ARE TWO MAYORS WHOSE CITIES ARE AT DIFFERENT ENDS OF THIS CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC. FROM MILAN, MAYOR SALA, CHAIRMAN OF THE GLOBAL TASK FORCE, AND HIS CITY IS RECOVERING AFTER ITALY, YOU REMEMBER, BECAME THE EUROPEAN EPICENTER OF THE DISEASE. AND FROM NEW ORLEANS, MAYOR LATOYA CANTRELL, THE FIRST WOMAN IN THE JOB IN 300 YEARS. AND NEW ORLEANS IS CURRENTLY CLOSING DOWN BARS ONCE AGAIN AS CORONAVIRUS CASES SURGE. SO, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. BOTH OF YOU MAYORS FROM VERY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD, AS I SORT OF OUTLINE. CAN I FIRST ASK YOU, MAYOR SALAH, BECAUSE I THINK THE WHOLE WORLD, CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES TOOK, YOU KNOW, TOOK CARE AND A LOT OF WARNING IN WHAT WAS GOING ON IN YOUR COUNTRY, AND PARTICULARLY IN MILAN, AND, INDEED, THE FIRST CASES THAT CAME OVER TO THE EAST COAST OF JUST DESCRIBE HOW YOU'RE DOING THERE. ARE YOU COMPLETELY OUT OF LOCKDOWN? >> MORE OR LESS. NOW THE SITUATION -- WE HAVE A SITUATION THAT IS UNDER CONTROL. WE DON'T KNOW FOR HOW LONG, FOR HOW MANY WEEKS OR MONTHS, BUT NOW THE SITUATION IS HONESTLY UNDER CONTROL, SO WE ARE INVITING THE PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO A SORT OF NORMALITY. IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME BECAUSE WE HAD 2,000 DEATHS. AND SO IT IS NOT SIMPLE. BUT NOW -- SO THIS IS THE REASON FOR WHICH IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO SAY THAT WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RECOVERY IN A DIFFERENT WAY. IT IS NOT AN OPPORTUNITY, BUT IT IS AN OBLIGATION BECAUSE WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO A NEW NORMALITY. >> SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING THE WAY YOU PUT IT, AN OBLIGATION AND NOT JUST AN OPPORTUNITY. LET ME QUICKLY ASK YOU, MAYOR CANTRELL, IN NEW ORLEANS. OBVIOUSLY THE WORLD IS LOOKING AT THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS THE CURRENT EPICENTER, WITH LATIN AMERICA, AND THERE'S BEEN A SURGE IN ALSO YOUR STATE, LOUISIANA, AND AS I SAID, YOU'RE CLOSING DOWN SOME BARS AND OTHER -- AND OTHER THINGS IN NEW ORLEANS. HOW WORRIED ARE YOU THAT THIS PHASE ONE, BECAUSE WE'RE STILL IN THE FIRST WAVE OF THIS, MAY VERY MUCH NOT BE CONTROLLED? >> WELL, FIRST, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME AND MAYOR SALAH. IN REGARDS TO BEING WORRIED, ABSOLUTELY. THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS WAS THE EPICENTER, A HOT SPOT IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT AT MARCH, APRIL. AND THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, WE CAME INTO THIS AS A -- AT A DEFICIT IN REGARDS TO OUR VULNERABLE POPULATIONS OF PEOPLE, THOSE LIVING WITH HEALTH DISPARITIES, BUT WE WERE ABLE TO FLATTEN THAT CURVE BY 96%. SIGNIFICANTLY COMING OUT OF COMMUNITY SPREAD. WE MOVED FROM PHASE ONE TO PHASE TWO. AND WE ARE NOW SEEING SOME REVERSE -- SOME -- WE'RE TAKING -- WE'RE MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. WE ARE NOT BACK INTO COMMUNITY SPREAD. WE DON'T WANT TO GO BACK THERE. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I'VE HAD TO PUT MORE RESTRICTIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, ON BARS, ALTHOUGH I DID ALLOW FOR THEM TO OPEN, NOT AT FULL CAPACITY, BUT OPEN IN THE SECOND PHASE. THE NEW CASES THAT WE ARE SEEING ARE DIRECTLY ALIGNED WITH THE BARS AND THE ACTIVITY THAT HAPPENS AT BARS. AND SO THE GOVERNOR TOOK A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. CLOSING BARS. AND SO I AM VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT. CONSIDERING THAT NEW ORLEANS IS STATE OF LOUISIANA AND HAVE A LOT OF BARS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO NOT WANT TO GO BACK. SO WE'RE STILL DOING WELL, BUT WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO DO WELL, AND IT REQUIRED US TO PUT A HALT ON BAR ACTIVITY. >> SO, LOOK, BOTH OF YOUR CITIES ARE VERY DEPENDENT ON TOURISM AND THE KIND OF HOSPITALITY ACTIVITIES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, MAYOR CANTRELL. OBVIOUSLY MILAN, AS WELL, AND MUCH OF ITALY IS RELIANT ON TOURISM FOR MUCH OF ITS ECONOMY. SO I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER -- IT'S QUITE A CHALLENGE TO TALK ABOUT BUILDING BACK BETTER AMID THIS, YOU KNOW, TERRIBLE PANDEMIC THAT'S ALSO MASSIVELY HIT THE BOTTOM LINE, WHETHER IT'S CITY BUDGETS OR INDIVIDUAL POCKETBOOKS, ET CETERA. MAYOR SALAH, AFTER BEING DELIVERED SUCH A BODY BLOW WITH THE INFECTIONS AND THE DEATHS, HOW DO YOU SEE -- YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT AN OBLIGATION -- HOW DO YOU EVEN START AS A MAYOR GETTING ALL THE OTHER MAYORS TO BUILD BACK BETTER? WHERE DOES THIS BEGIN? WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? >> YOU WERE SAYING WE ARE LOSING TOURISM, IN MILAN, WE HAD 10 MILLION TOURISTS IN 2019. BUT, I MEAN, WORKING ON OUR OPPORTUNITIES, ON OUR POLICIES, OUR UNIVERSITIES, OUR CREATIVITY, WE HAVE TO MODIFY THE FORM OF THE CITY, THE OPPORTUNITY OF THE CITY. SO NOW I WAS SAYING OBLIGATION BECAUSE IT IS AN OBLIGATION TO CREATE NEW GREEN JOBS. IT IS AN OBLIGATION TO IMPROVE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION OR TO CREATE A NEW CYCLE LINE. SO THAT IS THE REASON FOR WHICH EVEN FROM AN INVESTMENT POINT OF VIEW, WE BELIEVE THAT MOVING TO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION, IT IS -- IT COULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY. AND ONE CRUCIAL POINT IS THAT CITIES CANNOT DO IT ALONE. SO WE ARE REQUESTING THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, INSTITUTIONAL, I MEAN, THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTION TO SUPPORT OUR ACTIONS. TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE. YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ME THAT THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY IS FINANCING THE COUNTRIES. WE ARE ASKING THE COMMUNITY -- OR THE COMMUNITY -- EUROPE TO FINANCE OR PUBLIC SUBSIDIES IN FUEL, AND THAT THE ONLY STIMULUS BE AN AGREED STIMULUS. AND WE'RE ASKING THEM THAT THE SUPPORT SHOULD GO DIRECTLY TO SUSTAINABLE CITIES. BECAUSE CITIES ARE -- >> OKAY. THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. OBVIOUSLY THE EU HAVE MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT THEIR GREEN NEW DEAL. AND WE'VE HEARD THAT WORD ALSO, MAYOR CANTRELL, IN THE UNITED STATES. I MEAN, SHORT OF CALLING IT THAT, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, HAS REALLY THROWN DOWN A MASSIVE PACKAGE THAT HAS DRAWN A LOT OF PRAISE, EVEN FROM THE MOST PROGRESSIVE IN THE PARTY. CAN YOU TELL ME, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, HOW YOU THINK IT WILL WORK, THE -- SORT OF THE GREEN RECOVERY THAT YOU'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT. BECAUSE YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, IF BIDEN DOESN'T WIN, EVEN MAYORS, HOW WILL THEY BE ABLE TO DO IT, GIVEN YOU HAVE SO MUCH HOSTILITY FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND EVEN NOW HE IS ROLLING BACK, YOU KNOW, REGULATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, MAYORS, WE'RE ON THE FRONT LINES, RIGHT? WE'RE ON THE GROUND. AND WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON CLIMATE CHANGE, CLIMATE ACTION. WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON RENEWABLE ENERGY PLATFORMS, BEING GREENER, BEING CLEANER, BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL. IN A CITY LIKE NEW ORLEANS AND, YOU KNOW, FLOODING DUE TO RAINWATER AND THE WEATHER PATTERNS HAVE CHANGED. THE RATE OF RAIN HAS INCREASED. THE RAIN BOMBS ARE REAL. AND SO REGARDLESS OF WHO THE PRESIDENT IS, ON THE GROUND IN MY CITY, GREEN INFRASTRUCTURE AND LIVING WITH WATER IS A PRIORITY. AND IT WAS A PRIORITY PRE-COVID AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE ONE. SO WE'RE DOING THE WORK RIGHT NOW. WHETHER THAT IS ENSURING THAT WE'RE BUILDING MORE GREEN AND BLUE INFRASTRUCTURE TO HOLD RAINWATER. FREEING IT UP FROM GOING INTO OUR DRAINS. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, FROM GETTING INTO THE HOMES OF OUR PEOPLE. KEEPING OUR PEOPLE SAFE. AS IT RELATES TO RENEWABLE ENERGY PLATFORMS OR MAKING SURE THAT OUR PEOPLE CAN KEEP THAT OUT OF THEIR POCKET AND KEEP THE DOLLAR IS SOLAR FOR ALL, ONE EXAMPLE. IF WE CAN GET INTO SOMEONE'S HOME, WHERE THEY LIVE, MAKE IT MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT, MAKING AND IMPROVING THE AIR QUALITY IN WHICH THEY'RE LIVING IN, THEREFORE, IT IMPACTS THEIR HEALTH IN A POSITIVE WAY AND, AGAIN, KEEPING THAT DOLLAR IN THEIR POCKET BECAUSE THE ECONOMICS OF OUR FAMILIES AND OF OUR PEOPLE ARE JUST -- IT'S CRITICAL. SO TO MAYOR SALAH'S POINT OF SAYING THAT, HEY, THIS ISN'T ABOUT AN OPPORTUNITY, IT'S ABOUT AN OBLIGATION, I AGREE WITH THAT 100%. I'M GOING TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU AND WE'RE GOING TO SHARE IT TOGETHER. BECAUSE WHEN WE KNOW THAT OUR CITIES ARE DESTINATION CITIES. WE KNOW LIKE NEW ORLEANS WE HAD 18 MILLION VISITORS IN OUR COMMUNITY LAST YEAR IN 2019. SO THE IMPACT ON OUR BOTTOM LINE AND THE DOLLARS THAT WE'RE NOT RECEIVING, IT'S A REAL THING. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT'S OUR OBLIGATION TO DIVERSIFY OUR ECONOMY TO GET MORE OF OUR PEOPLE CONNECTED TO JOBS WITH HIGHER THAN A LIVEABLE WAGE SO THAT THEY CAN BUILD WEATHER, TRANSFERRABLE WEALTH, AND BE BETTER BECAUSE OF IT. THIS VIRUS DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED THE PEOPLE IN THIS CITY, AND THE MAJORITY -- NOW, I'VE LOST 543 RESIDENTS IN MY CITY. 404 OF THEM ARE AFRICAN-AMERICAN. THAT'S AN EXAMPLE. DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED, BUT THOSE WHO ARE LIVING WITH ALSO HEALTH OR UNDERLYING HEALTH CONDITIONS. AND ALL TIED TO IT IS THE ECONOMICS. SO OBLIGATION, YOU'RE RIGHT, MAYOR. >> SO LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE ONE OF THE OBLIGATIONS, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, FIRST IT WAS THE PANDEMIC THAT GOT SO MANY PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING BACK BETTER AND THEN IT WAS THE PANDEMIC OF RACISM WHICH REARED ITS TERRIBLE, UGLY HEAD AGAIN IN THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD. AND YOU DO MENTION THAT COVID HAS SHOWN AND EXPOSED HOW THE MOST VULNERABLE LIKE THE AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN AMERICA, THE MINORITY COMMUNITIES AND, INDEED, AROUND THE WORLD, IN ITALY, IN BRITAIN, AND OTHER PLACES, THOSE ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS -- OF THIS CRISIS WERE THE WORST HIT AND THOSE WITH THE LEAST RESOURCES. SO MAYOR SALAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU VERY QUICKLY BEFORE I GO BACK TO TALK ABOUT THE ECONOMICS OF THIS. DO YOU ALSO SEE HAVING TO EMERGE, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST BUILD BACK BETTER IN TERMS OF CYCLE LANES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF JUSTICE, IN TERMS OF TRYING TO REDUCE THE INEQUALITY GAP, TRYING TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD OF THE RACIAL DIVIDE. BECAUSE IT EXISTS IN EUROPE AS WELL AS IN THE UNITED STATES. >> IT IS A PROBLEM. FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY AGAIN, I CANNOT PRONOUNCE IT, THE WORD OPPORTUNITY, BUT UNDERSTANDING HOW MIGRANTS CAN CONTRIBUTE TO OUR SYSTEM. AND THE CULTURE. AND NOW WE ARE ADMITTING A NORMAL FLOW OF MIGRANTS. AND THAT IS A REALITY. SO OFTEN TIMES THE POLITICIANS DISCUSS ABOUT MANY, MANY SILLY THINGS AND DON'T FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. IN ANY CASE, IN THE CITIES, PROBLEM NUMBER ONE IS UNEMPLOYMENT. MILAN ENTERS INTO THE CRISIS WITH UNEMPLOYMENT RATE OF, AS WE SAY, 6%, 7% NOW. IT IS ALREADY DOUBLE, DOUBLE, AND SO THAT IS A REASON FOR WHICH WE HAVE TO FIND NEW SOLUTIONS. FROM THIS POINT OF VIEW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE CITY'S MORE OR LESS FACING THE SAME PROBLEM. AND THAT IS THE REASON FOR WHICH THE SEAPORT COMMUNITIES DECIDE TO WORK TOGETHER AND ALLOWING MIGRANTS, MYSELF OR MAYOR CANTRELL TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND IMPLEMENT -- TO IMPLEMENT THE RIGHT ACTION TO -- TO WORK AND JUSTICE. >> WE HAVE SEEN CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN HOSTILE TO THE IDEA OF ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY, AND IT HAS, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTED THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY TO THE EXPENSE OF THE MORE SUSTAINABLE ENERGY OUTLETS. AND I JUST WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PUT THE ECONOMIC POINT FORWARD THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN MADE. JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT FROM HIS ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY. >> THESE ARE THE MOST CRITICAL INVESTMENTS WE CAN MAKE FOR THE LONG-TERM HEALTH AND VITALITY OF BOTH THE AMERICAN ECONOMY AND THE PHYSICAL HEALTH AND SAFETY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. WHEN DONALD TRUMP THINKS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, THE ONLY WORD HE CAN MUSTER IS "HOAX". WHEN I THINK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, THE WORD I THINK OF IS "JOBS." >> SO BOTH MAYORS, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BUT FIRST YOU, MAYOR CANTRELL, BECAUSE IN THE UNITED STATES IT'S A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT -- IT'S A DIFFICULT MESSAGE TO CONVINCE MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY HUGE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY CAN COME FROM CLIMATE JOBS AND A GREEN RECOVERY. WE HAD THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM SAY TODAY THAT A NATURE-LED RECOVERY COULD ADD, YOU KNOW, $10 TRILLION TO ECONOMIES. SO HOW -- HOW MUCH OF A CHALLENGE IS IT FOR YOU, MAYOR CANTRELL, TO TRY TO GET THAT MESSAGE TO PEOPLE? AND IS IT REACHING PEOPLE, THE FACT THAT THIS COULD ACTUALLY BRING JOBS TO THOSE WHO DESPERATELY NEED THEM? >> WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, I THINK THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO SEE. AND IN THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS WITH THESE GREEN AND BLUE INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS THAT ARE HAPPENING, THEY'RE SEEING IN REAL TIME THE IMPACT NOT ONLY THAT IT HAS ON THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THEY LIVE IN, MEANING IT'S HOLDING MILLIONS OF GALLONS OF WATER THAT NOT GOING INTO THEIR HOMES. SO THAT CATCHES YOUR ATTENTION. BUT ALSO, WHEN YOU TIE THAT TO REAL JOBS AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO EARN HIGHER THAN A, YOU KNOW, A LIVING WAGE WHERE THEY HAVE CAN ACCESS TO QUALITY HEALTH CARE, THAT'S SHOWING THEM AND THAT'S PROVIDING THEM WITH THE TRAINING AND TOOLS THAT THEY NEED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THESE GREEN AND BLUE JOB OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE, AGAIN, REAL. SO I BELIEVE THAT IT -- WHEN WE CONTINUE TO SHOW AND DEMONSTRATE TO PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE REAL AND PEOPLE START SEEING A CHANGE, MEANING AN ECONOMIC SHIFT, MORE OF OUR PEOPLE EARNING A LIVING WAGE, MORE OF OUR PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO BUILD WEALTH, TRANSFERRABLE WEALTH, THAT SENDS A MESSAGE NOT ONLY TO THAT FAMILY, BUT TO THE COMMUNITY THAT'S SEEING THAT HAPPEN. SO WHEN THEY CAN BENEFIT AND THEY SEE THE BENEFIT, YOU BRING PEOPLE ALONG. AND IT DOESN'T -- >> MM-HMM. >> -- COME WITH TALK. IT THE ACTION. >> AND, ACTUALLY, WE MIGHT POINT OUT THE EDELMAN TRUST BAROMETER SAYS MAYORS, CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE A VERY HIGH TRUST LEVEL AMONGST PEOPLE RIGHT NOW. >> YES. >> NO MATTER WHAT'S GOING ON. BUT RIGHT NOW YOU CERTAINLY DO. AND, OF COURSE, OF COURSE YOU SPEAK ABOUT ROGUE WATER WITH SUCH PASSION BECAUSE YOU, YOU KNOW, LIVE IN THE STATE THAT WAS DEVASTATED AND IN THE CITY BY HURRICANE KATRINA AND YOU DID LOTS OF WORK BUILDING BACK OUT OF THAT. SO LET ME JUST FINISH WITH YOU, MAYOR SALAH IN MILAN. YOU KNOW, I GUESS I JUST WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU WHETHER YOU FEEL THAT THIS MOMENT, THIS SORT OF TIPPING POINT MOMENT THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE HOPING IT WILL BE, WILL PERSIST. YOU KNOW, WILL THIS GOOD WILL CONTINUE TO TRY TO BUILD BACK BETTER? WILL THE FUNDS REALLY BE THERE? WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DO IT OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO BE STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE AFTER THE MASSIVE ECONOMIC HIT THAT THE WHOLE WORLD HAS TAKEN DURING -- DURING THIS PANDEMIC? >> I BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING THAT BUSINESS AS USUAL MEANS NOTHING NOW. AND IT IS A NECESSITY TO REINVENT THE CITY. AND LET ME SAY, THE ONLY WAY TO MODIFY THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT -- OUR SOCIAL LIFE -- IS TO WORK ON CITIES. THIS IS THE CRUCIAL POINT AND WE ARE CONVINCED. SO THAT IS THE REASON FOR WHICH WE HAVE CREATIVITY. WE HAVE THE UNIVERSITIES. SO THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS FOR WHICH IT MAKES SENSE TO POINT ON THE CITIES. AND LET ME SAY, NOW EVEN BEFORE -- EVEN BEFORE THE COVID, THE DISCUSSION IN MY CITY, IN MILAN, WAS ABOUT THE FUTURE AND THE QUESTION WAS FROM THE PEOPLE, HOW ARE WE MAKING MILAN IN 2030. AND NORMALLY THE OLDER PEOPLE WERE FOCUSSING ON THE ENVIRONMENT. SO THAT IS THE REASON. BECAUSE NOW IT'S THE TIME. >> AND, OF COURSE, IT IS VERY MUCH AN ELECTION ISSUE AROUND THE WORLD. SO, MAYOR SALAH, MAYOR CANTRELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US. >>> NOW, IN MUCH OF THE WORLD, OF COURSE, ELECTIONS DETERMINE THE DIRECTION OF ANY CITY OR ANY COUNTRY. AND THE SURGING CORONAVIRUS INFECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE SHAPING THE COURSE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN. BUT THE CHAOTIC RESPONSE WAS AGAIN HIGHLIGHTED BY AN EXTRAORDINARY AND RAMBLING ROSE GARDEN PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY THAT PEOPLE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT, WHERE THE PRESIDENT SEEMED TO MEANDER FROM CHINA'S THREAT TO HONG KONG TO CORONAVIRUS TO THEN ATTACKING HIS DEMOCRATIC RIVAL JOE BIDEN. BUT MR. TRUMP DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO LOOK ACROSS THE AISLE FOR HIS OPPONENTS. GROUPS LIKE REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP ARE SPRINGING UP AND TRYING TO CONVINCE PARTY MEMBERS AND VOTERS TO ABANDON THIS PRESIDENT. WITH TESTIMONIALS AND ADS LIKE THIS ONE. >> I'M TIRED OF BEING EMBARRASSED. >> I HAVE BEEN RIDDLED WITH GUILT. >> I AM ASHAMED TO THIS DAY FOR VOTING FOR HIM. >> WE'VE HAD ENOUGH. >> VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN A MONUMENTAL MISTAKE. >> I'LL TAKE ANYBODY OVER HIM. >> I'M VOTING FOR JOE BIDEN. >> JOE BIDEN. >> DONALD TRUMP HAS TO GO. >> IT'S OKAY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. WE DID. >> AND IT COULD BE WORKING. THIS NEW POLL FROM MONMOUTH UNIVERSITY SHOWS THE PRESIDENT TRAILING BIDEN IN PENNSYLVANIA, A KEY STATE, OF COURSE, AND IT WAS KEY TO HI 2016 VICTORY, WHICH HE EKED OUT JUST NARROWLY. JOINING ME NOW IS THE CONFOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, SHE'S SARAH LONGWELL, A POLITICAL STRATEGIST AND LIFELONG REPUBLICAN AND SHE'S JOINING US FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. SARAH LONGWELL, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW IT'S MEANT TO BE ALL HANDS ON DECK AND ALL REPUBLICANS TRYING TO -- OH, I GUESS IN ANY NORMAL CYCLE IT WOULD BE, ALL PARTY MEMBERS TRYING TO GET THEIR PRESIDENT EXCITED, GETTING ALL EXCITED ABOUT THE CONVENTION AND THE REST. AND IT LOOKS TO BE VERY MUCH THE OPPOSITE. EVEN THE CONVENTIONS, YOU KNOW, BIG NAMES ARE SORT OF DROPPING OUT, YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY RAPIDLY. HOW DO YOU -- HOW DID YOU COME TO THE -- TO THIS POINT WHERE YOU'VE ACTUALLY GOT A WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF REPUBLICANS AGAINST A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT? >> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN OUT ON THE PRESIDENT SINCE THE MOMENT HE CAME DOWN THE ESCALATOR. AND EVER SINCE HE WAS ELECTED, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT HOW DO YOU DEFEAT THIS MOST UNFIT PRESIDENT? AND I WONDERED, AS A LOT OF REPUBLICANS DID, WHAT MADE REPUBLICANS VOTE FOR HIM? SO FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS I'VE BEEN DOING FOCUS GROUPS WITH WHAT I CALL RELUCTANT TRUMP VOTERS, SOFT TRUMP SUPPORTERS. WHAT WE DO WITH THE COUNTRY GOING FORWARD AND HAS IT BEEN TOTALLY HIJACKED BY THIS SORT OF NATIONALIST, POPULIST PRESIDENT? AND AS THINGS WENT ON AND YOU JUST SAW HIM, YOU KNOW, CAPTURE THE PARTY MORE AND MORE, YOU ALSO SAW ANOTHER THING HAPPEN, WHICH WAS THE PARTY GOT SMALLER, RIGHT? IN 2018, WE SAW A NUMBER OF ESPECIALLY SUBURBAN WOMEN WALK AWAY FROM THE PARTY AND VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS THAT LED THEM TO FLIP 40 HOUSE SEATS. AND AS I SAW -- LOOKED TOWARD 2020 AND THE RESEARCH, I REALLY THOUGHT, WELL, WHAT IS MOST PERSUASIVE? WHAT WOULD CAUSE PEOPLE TO WALK AWAY FROM DONALD TRUMP? AND THE ANSWER WAS REAL STORIES FROM PEOPLE LIKE THEM. THERE IS A REAL PERMISSION STRUCTURE ASPECT OR A SOCIAL NORMAL ASPECT TO THE WAY PEOPLE THINK ABOUT TRUMP OR EVEN ABOUT POLITICS. YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY TRIBAL. SO WHEN REPUBLICAN VOTERS WHO RIGHT NOW ARE AS DEMORALIZED AS THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE WE ARE SITTING, YOU KNOW, NOT AT A PLACE WHERE THERE'S A ROCK SOLID ECONOMY, BUT INSTEAD DOUBLE-DIGIT UNEMPLOYMENT, A HEALTH CRISIS THAT'S NOT BEING MANAGED, A RACIAL CRISIS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS POURING GASOLINE ON, AND -- AND SO WE WENT AND FOUND ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WHO MANY OF WHOM VOTED FOR TRUMP IN 2016, BUT WERE SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR HIM AGAIN IN 2020, AND WE ENCOURAGED THEM TO TELL THOUGH STORIES AND WE'RE GOING TO SHOW THEM TO OTHER PEOPLE. REALLY, THIS CATEGORY OF SOFT TRUMP SUPPORTERS BECAUSE WE'RE FINDING THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS MOMENT WHO EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE WITH THE PRESIDENT FOR A LONG TIME ARE STARTING TO RETHINK THINGS. >> WELL, LET ME -- LET ME ASK YOU TO SORT OF ALMOST GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING A LITTLE BIT, OR STEP BACK A LITTLE BIT. BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU WERE AGAINST HIM FROM THE MOMENT OF THAT ESCALATOR. AND THERE WERE MANY PROMINENT MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. WE CAN LIST, YOU KNOW, WHO SAID THE SAME THING. THAT UNFIT FOR PRESIDENCY, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, WHO BY INAUGURATION DAY SEEMED TO BE CHANGING THEIR MINDS. AND PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF SEEMED TO BE ON THE, AGAIN, ON THE OUTS IN TERMS OF BEING BEHIND THE PRESIDENT AND BEING IN THE HEART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. I GUESS, YOU KNOW, DESCRIBE THAT MOMENT WHEN ALL THESE PEOPLE -- I GUESS HAVE YOU BEEN LOOKING FOR LEADERS INSIDE THE PARTY TO DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING? >> YEAH. I MEAN, THE WAY I WOULD DESCRIBE THAT MOMENT IT REALLY HAS BEEN SORT OF AN INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS TYPE EXPERIENCE. YOU JUST LOOK AT A PERSON LIKE LINDSEY GRAHAM WHO IS A POLITICIAN I ALWAYS THOUGHT VERY WELL OF. YOU KNOW, HE'S KIND OF A MODERATE. TO SEE HIM GO FROM SOMEBODY WHO WAS JOHN McCAIN'S SIDEKICK TO BEING THE PRESIDENT'S -- ONE OF HIS MOST ARDENT SUPPORTERS HAS JUST BEEN, LIKE, IT'S LIKE LIVING IN THE UPSIDE DOWN. IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN CRAZY TO WATCH SO MANY OF THESE REPUBLICANS THAT I'VE LONG ADMIRED BECOME COMPLICIT. AND I THINK THE REASON THAT THEY DO THAT IS REALLY JUST AN INTEREST IN PROXIMITY TO POWER. AND, LOOK, BACK IN -- FOR A LONG TIME, WE LOOKED FOR SOMEBODY THAT WE THOUGHT MAYBE WOULD PRIMARY THE PRESIDENT. WE THOUGHT THERE WAS A REALISTIC OPTION FOR THAT. YOU HEARD NAMES BEING KICKED AROUND BACK IN 2017, 2018, PEOPLE LIKE LARRY HOGAN. BUT ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, AS TIME WENT ON, THE PRESIDENT'S GRIP ON THE PARTY ABSOLUTELY GOT STRONGER, AND IT REALLY FELT LIKE NOBODY WAS GOING TO SORT OF RISE UP TO BEAT HIM. THAT'S WHY THE MOMENT WHEN MITT ROMNEY ACTUALLY STOOD UP DURING IMPEACHMENT AND VOTED TO IMPEACH WAS -- WAS BOTH IN SOME WAYS A HEARTENING MOMENT TO SEE AT LEAST ONE REPUBLICAN DO IT, BUT IN ANOTHER WAY WAS SORT OF DEVASTATING TO SEE WITH SO MANY -- THE FACTS BEING SO CLEAR TO HAVE JUST REPUBLICANS SORT OF REFUSE TO STAND UP IN THAT MOMENT, AND I THINK THAT WAS PRETTY HEARTBREAKING, ACTUALLY, FOR A LOT OF REPUBLICANS IN MY POSITION, YOU KNOW, REALLY ADMIRE PEOPLE LIKE SUSAN COLLINS OR LISA MURKOWSKI. JUST TO SEE THEM NOT PUT THE GUARDRAILS ON THIS PRESIDENT. IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN HARD TO WATCH. AND SO I THINK THAT THE ONLY OPTION THAT WE ARE LEFT WITH IS NOT ONLY DOES TRUMP NEED TO BE DEFEATED IN 2020, BUT HE NEEDS TO BE DEFEATED RESOUNDINGLY. I JUST -- YOU CAN'T LET THE PARTY LEARN ALL OF THESE BAD LESSONS FROM THE TRUMP TIME. THAT IT'S OKAY TO LIE. THAT IT'S OKAY TO BE CORRUPT. YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE ANY CHANCE EVER OF TAKING THE PARTY BACK AND ESTABLISHING IT AS A CENTER-RIGHT GOVERNING PARTY THAT IS RESPONSIBLE, THEN -- THEN DONALD TRUMP AND TRUMPISM HAVE TO BE THOROUGHLY REPUDIATED IN THIS ELECTION, WHICH IS WHY I THINK YOU'RE SEEING SO MANY REPUBLICANS STAND UP IN THIS MOMENT AND ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST THE PARTY UNAPOLOGETICALLY. JUST NOT SCARED TO DO IT BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO AT THIS TIME. >> SO, YOU MENTIONED ABOUT -- ABOUT THE SUPPORT. I MEAN, HE DOES STILL MAINTAIN UPWARDS OF ABOUT 80% SUPPORT AMONG REPUBLICANS. I WONDER WHERE YOU -- THERE'S A -- THERE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY GRAPHIC, IT SHOWS A GRAPH OF THE APPROVAL RATING. IN OTHER WORDS, HOW PEOPLE SEE THE DIRECTION AND WHETHER THEY'RE SATISFIED WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY. AND IT WAS ABOUT 55% AMONGST REPUBLICANS IN WENT, SHORTLY AROUND THE INAUGURATION TIME, AND IT'S PLUMMETED. LOOK AT THAT STEEP, STEEP DROP-OFF TO NOW AT ABOUT 19%. OBVIOUSLY DEMOCRATS AND THE OTHERS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN IMAGINE WHERE THEIR CURVE WOULD BE, BUT LOOK AT THAT AMONGST REPUBLICANS. DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT SPECIFICALLY TO CORONAVIRUS, TO THE TERRIBLE SURGE OF, YOU KNOW, OF RACISM IN AMERICA? WELL, NOT THE SURGE, BUT THE REEXPOSURE OF RACISM IN AMERICA SINCE THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD. WHAT HAS TURNED THAT LOT AGAIN THE PRESIDENT? >> YEAH, SO, IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY SIMPLE. I THINK IT'S ABOUT PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES. YOU KNOW, FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE -- LIKE I SAID, DO I A LOT OF THESE FOCUS GROUPS. PEOPLE JUST AREN'T PAYING A TON OF ATTENTION TO THE DAY-TO-DAY SORT OF CRAZINESS OF TRUMP THE WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN POLITICS DO. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE JUST NOT I THINK TURNED OFF THE SAME WAY, BUT THE CRISIS, THE HEALTH CRISIS, WHICH IS COMPOUNDED THEN BY AN ECONOMIC CRISIS AND ON TOP OF THAT A RACIAL CRISIS, ALL OF THAT HAD REALLY HAS PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE. SO I'VE HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, YOU KNOW, HEY, I WAS FINE ON TRUMP UNTIL THE CORONAVIRUS HIT, AND THEN IT BECAME A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH AND THE STAKES WERE TOO HIGH, AND IT SEEMS LIKE HE DOESN'T CARE. I MEAN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE JUXTAPOSITION OF SO MANY PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO ABOUT SENDING KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL OR PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, STILL LIVING IN THEIR BASEMENTS TO WORK EVERY DAY. YOU'VE GOT A PRESIDENT WHO IS FOCUSED ON MONUMENTS, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I LOVE THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT AS MUCH AS THE NEXT PERSON, BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY CENTRAL TO PEOPLE'S LIVES AT THE MOMENT. AND FOR THE PRESIDENT TO JUST SORT OF CHECK OUT, WAIVE THE WHITE FLAG, I THINK THAT PEOPLE -- I MEAN, YOU SEE HIS NUMBERS ON THE CORONAVIRUS AND THE APPROVAL, THE HANDLING. THEY'RE INCREDIBLY LOW BECAUSE HE'S NOT DOING A GOOD JOB. >> YEAH. >> I MEAN, LIKE THE NEVER TRUMPERS WERE ALWAYS AFRAID OF IS THAT HE WAS UNFIT FOR THIS BIG JOB, AND I THINK WHAT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IS SEEING RIGHT NOW IS WHEN YOU'RE IN A CRISIS MOMENT OR A MULTIPLE CRISIS MOMENT, HE'S REALLY UNFIT FOR THE MOMENT. >> YOU KNOW, SARAH, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO WERE INITIALLY NEVER TRUMPERS REALLY LIKED HIM BECAUSE THEY LIKED HIS TAX -- TAX REFORM AND TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY. THEY LIKED HIS SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS. THEY LIKED ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF. SO THEY -- SO THEY STUCK WITH HIM. I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, THIS HAS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING. I MEAN, REPUBLICANISM HAS ESSENTIALLY LAID DOWN THIS ROUTE FOR A FIGURE LIKE DONALD TRUMP. YOU KNOW, YOU HAD -- EVEN ONE OF YOUR CO-FOUNDERS, WILLIAM KRISTOL, HE WAS SUPPORTING SARAH PALIN AS YOU REMEMBER THAT INCREDIBLY DISRUPTIVE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CHOICE OF JOHN McCAIN. I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THAT THE PARTY ITSELF HAS HAD A HAND IN WHERE YOUR PARTY IS TODAY. >> YEAH, I THINK THERE IS SOME OF THAT, BUT I ALSO THINK SOMETHING BIGGER IS HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY. I MEAN, I THINK WE'RE SEEING KIND OF A POPULIST SURGE. I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT BERNIE SANDERS ON THE LEFT AND, YOU KNOW, THERE THIS -- THERE IS THIS KIND OF POPULIST MOMENT THAT'S HAPPENING IN AMERICA WHERE PEOPLE DON'T TRUST ELITES. YOU KNOW, THEY ARE SKEPTICAL OF ALL INFORMATION. I MEAN, WHEN I TALK TO THESE VOTERS ALL THE TIME, THEY NEVER KNOW WHO TO TRUST. SO I THINK THE POPULIST MOMENT IS BIGGER THAN JUST ONE CANDIDATE, AND I THINK THE DEMOCRATS, THOUGH, HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB OF HOLDING THE POPULIST MOMENTUM ON THEIR SIDE AT BAY, AND THAT IS EVIDENCED BY THE FACT THAT THEY NOMINATED A -- I MEAN, HE A RELATIVE MODERATE, LET'S SAY, CERTAINLY COMPARED TO THE REST OF HIS FIELD, WHEREAS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS SORT OF RIPE TO BE HIJACKED. I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP SAW AN OPENING, AND IT WAS CERTAINLY AN OPENING THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE SEEN. I WAS -- I WAS -- THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I STARTED DOING THE FOCUS GROUPS IS I WAS SO CAUGHT OFF GUARD BY A REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT WOULD TOLERATE THAT -- THAT LEVEL OF, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT MEXICAN JUDGES AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS -- EVEN JUST TOLERATE SOMEBODY WHO WAS SUCH A CONSPIRACY THEORIST. I MEAN, GOING BACK TO BARACK OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE. I THINK -- I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT EXTREME ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT IT WASN'T THE DOMINANT STRAIN, AND IT HAS BECOME THE DOMINANT STRAIN AND SO, YES, I THINK THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS -- THAT WAS THERE AT THE CORE THAT MAYBE SOME OF US DIDN'T SEE AND CERTAINLY DIDN'T SEE HOW DANGEROUS IT COULD BE IN THE HANDS OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST LIMITED -- I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SEEING IT AROUND THE GLOBE WITH POPULISM, AND SO I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO ME IN PART ABOUT DEFEATING DONALD TRUMP AND WHY I'M GLAD TO SUPPORT SOMEBODY LIKE JOE BIDEN IS, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IT'S TIME TO DOUBLE DOWN ON LIBERAL DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THAT'S -- AND HAVE AMERICA CONTINUE TO BE A BEACON FOR THAT IN THE WORLD BECAUSE I THINK THE ENTIRE WORLD IS GETTING A BIT ON SHAKY GROUND HERE. >> ALSO, CAN I ASK YOU BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU OBVIOUSLY ALSO ARE A LOG CABIN REPUBLICAN AND YOU -- YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU FOUGHT FOR EQUALITY, CERTAINLY IN GAY RIGHTS AND THE LIKE, BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THE REPUBLICANS HAVE MADE A CAREER OF, CERTAINLY IN MODERN TIMES, WEDGE ISSUES. YOU KNOW, ALL THOSE ISSUES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHETHER IT'S -- WHETHER IT'S RACE, IT MIGHT BE. IT'S NOT JUST POPULISM, IT'S WEDGE ISSUES AS WELL. DO YOU THINK THAT, AS YOU SAY, IF HE IS BEATEN AND BEATEN BAD, THAT THE REPUBLICANS MIGHT CHANGE AND NOT BE SO WEDGY AND NOT DRIVE A STAKE AS THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF CERTAINLY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION BETWEEN PEOPLE? >> YEAH, I MEAN, I AGREE WITH SOME OF THAT ANALYSIS WHERE -- BUT I DO THINK ALL ELECTIONS TO SOME DEGREE ARE ABOUT WEDGE ISSUES, BUT I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE HAVE USED, YOU KNOW, IN THIS CASE LGBT ISSUES BACK IN THE BUSH YEARS AS A WAY TO DIVIDE PEOPLE. AND ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I WAS AS INVOLVED IN REPUBLICAN POLITICS IS THAT I -- I WANTED TO MAKE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MORE INCLUSIVE, AND I THINK WHEN MITT ROMNEY LOST IN 2012, THERE WAS A REAL PUSH, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT REMEMBER THAT AUTOPSY THAT GOT PUT TOGETHER. AND I ACTUALLY THOUGHT THERE WAS THIS REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO BECOME A MORE INCLUSIVE PARTY. TO TRY TO REACH OUT TO MINORITIES. TO TRY TO REACH OUT TO WOMEN. BUT IT HAS GONE THE ABSOLUTELY OPPOSITE DIRECTION. WHERE IT IS NOW BASICALLY A WHITE, WORKING-CLASS MEN'S PARTY, AND THAT IS A DEM GRAPHICALLY UNSUSTAINABLE PARTY. THERE IS NOT A BIG ENOUGH COALITION THERE TO DELIVER THE KIND OF MARGINS YOU NEED TO WIN BIG ELECTIONS, AND SO I DO THINK THAT IF JOE BIDEN JUST ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISHES DONALD TRUMP, THAT IT WILL SEND AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT THEY -- THEY PULL A RABBIT OUT OF THE HAT IN 2016, BUT THAT THEY'VE BEEN TRENDING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION FOR A LONG TIME AND THAT IF THEY DON'T RETHINK THE PARTY IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WHAT IT STANDS FOR -- I MEAN, LOOK, YOU CAN'T HAVE A PARTY THAT IS JUST AN OPPOSITION PARTY THAT IS JUST, HEY, WE'RE HERE TO SAVE YOU FROM THE FAR-LEFT DEMOCRATS. WHEN I BECAME A REPUBLICAN OR WHEN I WAS ATTRACTED TO CONSERVATIVE THINKING IT WAS BECAUSE CONSERVATIVES AND REPUBLICANS STOOD FOR SOMETHING, AND I JUST SEE SO MUCH LESS OF THAT THESE DAYS. IT'S REALLY JUST, HEY, WE'RE NOT THEM. AND THAT IS NOT A WINNING MESSAGE LONG TERM. AND SO, YEAH, I THINK THAT THE PARTY -- MY HOPE IS IS THAT A MASSIVE BIDEN VICTORY -- AND THAT'S NOT ASSURED, ALSO, I'LL TELL YOU, BUT THAT A MASSIVE BIDEN VICTORY WILL FORCE THE KIND OF RECKONING NEEDED IN THE PARTY. >> FASCINATING. AND CERTAINLY FASCINATING TO HEAR FROM A REPUBLICAN HOW YOU ARE TARGETING REPUBLICAN VOTERS. AND, OF COURSE, YOUR COLLEAGUES AT THE LINCOLN PROJECT ARE DOING THE SAME, OR SIMILAR, AND TRYING TO GO ALL THE WAY DOWN-BALLOT AS WELL. SO WE'LL WAIT AND WE'LL WATCH AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS. >>> NOW, THE DATA SHOWS THAT THE MEDIAN WHITE FAMILY HAS TEN TYPES MORE WEALTH THAN THE AVERAGE BLACK FAMILY. OUR NEXT GUEST IS A LAW PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA IRVINE. IN HER AWARD-WINNING BOOK, "THE

COLOR OF MONEY

BLACK BANKS AND THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP," SHE EXAMINES HOW BLACK COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY SHUT OUT OF THE BANKING SYSTEM. IT'S A BIG BRICK IN THE WALL OF STRUCTURAL RACISM AND OUR MICHELLE MARTIN HAS BEEN LOOKING INTO THESE ISSUES EVEN BEFORE THE CURRENT CRISIS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT ARE SWEEPING AMERICA. BUT, OF COURSE, THIS CONVERSATION JUST SHOWS HOW PRESCIENT THESE WARNINGS HAVE BEEN. THESE CONVERSATION IS PART OF OUR ONGOING INITIATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS AND OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA. IT'S CALLED "CHASING THE DREAM." >> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. >> SO, YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "THE BLACK BANKS AND THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP". IT THE SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE ROLE OF BLACK BANKS, BUT YOUR WORK IS SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE WEALTH GAP IS WHERE HISTORIC INJUSTICE BREEDS PRESENT SUFFERING. THAT THIS IS ROOTED NOT JUST IN SLAVERY, BUT IN THE HISTORY IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING SLAVERY. HOW DOES SLAVERY, WHICH ENDED IN 1865, HAVE PRESENT-DAY CONSEQUENCES? >> ONE OF THE THINGS I TRY TO DO IN THE BOOK IS TO LOOK AT THE MYTHS THAT WE TELL OURSELVES ABOUT SORT OF AMERICAN CAPITALISM AND THEN KIND OF SHOW THE REALITY AND SHOW THE GAPS BETWEEN, RIGHT? SO THE MYTH IS THAT ONCE SLAVERY WAS ENDED, THERE WAS SORT OF CAPITALISM AND FREE MARKETS AND, YOU KNOW, SINCE THEN THERE HAS BEEN EQUALITY. AND THE REALITY IS, IN THE -- ON THE ECONOMIC FRONT, THE AMERICAN MARKETS WERE NOT OPEN AND CAPITALISTIC AND FREE, RIGHT? SPECIFICALLY IN THE PROTECTION OF BLACK PROPERTY, WHICH WAS NEVER THERE. EXCLUSION FROM CERTAIN JOBS AND MARKET. SO AFTER THE CIVIL WAR, AND EMANCIPATION, INSTEAD OF GETTING LAND, THE FREED SLAVED DID NOT GET LAND, THEY GOT THIS SAVINGS BANK. THEY PUT THEIR MONEY IN THE SAVINGS BANK, TRUSTING IT, THINKING IT WAS BACKED BY THE FULL FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WHICH IT WAS NOT, IT WAS ADVERTISED TO BE, AND THEY LOST HALF THEIR WAGES. AND THIS IS IN A TIME OF HEAVY SEGREGATION. AND SHARE CROPPING, RIGHT? AN ARRANGEMENT THAT IS A DEBT ARRANGEMENT. IT WAS BASICALLY FREED SLAVES GOING BACK TO THE PLANTATIONS, SOME OF WHICH THEY HAD JUST SORT OF ESCAPED FROM, AND GROWING COTTON IN THE SAME WAY THEY DID UNDER SLAVERY, EXCEPT FOR THEY WERE NO LONGER SLAVES THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, SHARE CROPPERS OF THE LAND. THEY WERE TENANTS. THAT WAS NOT A WEALTH-BUILDING MECHANISM. MEANWHILE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF WHITE SOUTHERNERS AND WESTERNERS AND EASTERNERS WERE ABLE TO GET BENEFITS FROM THE HOMESTEAD ACT. IF YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THE 1934-ERA NEW DEAL MEASURES, THOSE ARE MUCH MORE CONSEQUENTIAL TO TODAY. SO WHAT THE 1934 FHA AND GI BILLS DID IS SORT OF CEMENT THAT RACIAL SEGREGATION INTO LAW AND POLICY, AND WHAT THEY DID IS GO AROUND DRAWING RISK MAPS AROUND THE COUNTRY. THIS IS BEFORE CREDIT SCORING OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AND SAID, LOOK, IF YOU LIVE IN THIS CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOOD, THE RISKS ARE LOW. YOUR PROPERTY'S GOING TO GAIN VALUE. SO WE'RE GOING TO INSURE YOUR MORTGAGE. THE WAY THEY DETERMINED THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS IS HOW WHITE THEY WERE. SO IF YOU LIVE IN A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD AND IT CONTINUES AND REMAINS WHITE, THEN YOU GET YOUR MORTGAGE INSURED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. IF YOU LIVE IN A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD OR ONE THAT IS WHAT THEY CALLED RACIALLY INHARMONIOUS, MEANING OTHER RACES LIVING BESIDE EACH OTHER, YOU WERE IN A HIGH-RISK NEIGHBORHOOD, WHICH MEANT THAT YOUR MORTGAGE WAS NOT GOING TO BE INSURED. SO THOSE MAPS ARE FOLLOWED BY BANKS AND BY PRIVATE LENDERS WELL INTO 1950s, 1960s, AND YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, CONTRACTS, HOUSING CONTRACTS PUTTING RACIAL COVENANTS IN THE CONTRACT. YOU HAVE HOAs, YOU HAVE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS, REALLY JUST ENFORCING THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD AND EXCLUDEING BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE. >> YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT CREDIT REALLY CREATES WEALTH AND THAT IF AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE LOCKED OUT OF THE CREDIT SYSTEM, IT KEEPS THEM POOR. WHY IS THAT? >> SO, I WANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN GOOD CREDIT AND BAD CREDIT, RIGHT? SO THE GOOD CREDIT, THE FHA LOANS, THE GI BILLS, THE KIND OF STUFF THAT GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZES LOWE RISK CREDIT, FIXED RATE 30-YEAR MORTGAGE, THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S GOOD CREDIT. IF YOU HAVE A LITTLE DOWN PAYMENT, YOU CAN PAY BASICALLY LESS THAN YOU'RE PAYING IN RENT AND YOU'RE BUILDING EQUITY IN A HOUSE. THAT'S A GOOD MORTGAGE CREDIT THAT BUILDS WEALTH BECAUSE THEN YOU'RE TAKING THAT LITTLE EQUITY, THAT DOWN PAYMENT THAT YOU PUT DOWN, AND CREATING WEALTH BECAUSE YOUR PROPERTY'S GOING TO INCREASE IF IT'S IN A CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOOD. OR A STUDENT LOAN THAT IS LOW-COST, YOU CAN USE TO GO TO COLLEGE AND THEN HOPEFULLY MAKE SOME MONEY AND USE THAT GOOD CREDIT. BAD CREDIT IS THE STUFF WE TALK ABOUT, PAY DAY LOANS AND INSTALLMENT CREDIT AND SUBPRIME CREDIT. HIGH-INTEREST, HIGH-RISK CREDIT. SO WHAT YOU'VE HAD IS, YOU KNOW, I CALL IT A JIM CROW CREDIT MARKET THAT HAS DEVELOPED ON TOP OF THE SEGREGATORY PATTERNS. TO BLACK COMMUNITIES IT'S BEEN INSTALLMENT CREDIT, SUBPRIME CREDIT THAT SORT OF BLEW UP IN THOSE SPACES AND CREDIT THAT IS NOT WEALTH-BUILDING. SO I WANT TO DISTINGUISH CREDIT, THE TWO TYPES OF CREDIT SO WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ALL ACCESS IS GOOD ACCESS, RIGHT? PAYDAY LENDING IS NOT GOOD. >> YOU MAKE THE POINT THAT WHITE IMMIGRANT GROUPS HAVE AT POINTS IN THEIR HISTORY FACED THE SAME KINDS OF RESTRICTIONS THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE. I MEAN, ACCESS TO -- THEY WERE LOCKED OUT OF LENDING INSTITUTIONS. THEY WERE SEGREGATED IN CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS AT SOME POINT. BUT YOU SAY THAT THEY'VE HAD A VERY DIFFERENT TRAJECTORY. YOU KNOW, TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT. IF FACT, YOU CITE THE BANK OF ITALY AS AN EXAMPLE. WHICH WAS FORMED WHEN ITALIAN IMMIGRANTS FACED DISCRIMINATION AND WERE GHETTOIZED. WHAT HAPPENED HER? A VERY DIFFERENT HISTORY THAN THAT OF MOST OF THE BANKS THAT AROSE TO SERVE BLACK PEOPLE. WHAT HAPPENED THERE AND WHY SO DIFFERENT? >> IF YOU LOOK AT THE BANK OF ITALY'S EXAMPLE, IT REALLY DOES HAVE A DISPARATE IMPACT, THE DISPARATE SORT OF TRAJECTORIES OF THE TWO DIFFERENT RACES. SO ITALIANS AND IRISH, MANY OTHER, FOREIGN-BORN ARABS, MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS, ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE WERE ALSO NONWHITE. SOME ARE STILL NONWHITE BUT LOOKING AT ITALIANS AND IRISH SPECIFICALLY KIND OF JUST SHOWS HOW THESE MARKETS AND SORT OF WHITENESS WORK. SO PRE SORT OF NEW DEAL, IRISH AND ITALIANS WERE EXCLUDED THE WAY BLACKS WERE. ALTHOUGH, IF YOU LOOK AT SEGREGATION PATTERNS IT WAS NEVER QUITE AS STARK. THE BLACK SEGREGATION PATTERNS IN CERTAIN SPACES, BLACKS WERE MUCH MORE SEGREGATED THAN ITALIANS AND IRISH, BUT ITALIANS AND IRISH WERE EXCLUDED FROM A LOT OF THESE THINGS. POST-FHA, NEW DEAL CREDIT, ITALIANS AND IRISH GET INCLUDED IN THAT AMERICAN SUBURBAN CREDIT MARKET. SO THEY DO GET THE GI BILL. THEY'RE NOT RESTRICTED FROM CERTAIN COLLEGES. THEY ARE ABLE TO BUY IN COMMUNITY THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, SUBURBS THAT ARE ABLE TO GROW INEQUITY. SO YOU LOOK AT BANK OF ITALY, BANK OF ITALY STARTS AS A BANK JUST LIKE A LOT OF THE BLACK BANKS I HIGHLIGHT IN THE BOOK AS A RESPONSE TO EXCLUSION. WHEN YOU HAVE A BLACK COMMUNITY OR ITALIAN COMMUNITY EXCLUDED FROM THE MAINSTREAM CREDIT SYSTEM WHAT HAPPENS A LOT IS THE ENTREPRENEURS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY ESTABLISH THEIR OWN BANK. THE BACK OF ITALY ESTABLISHES BECAUSE ITALIANS AREN'T GETTING BANKED BY OTHER MAINSTREAM INSTITUTIONS, BUT ONCE ITALIANS DO BECOME PART OF THIS FHA AND GI CREDIT, BANK OF ITALY IS ABLE TO THRIVE AND SURVIVE. IT'S IN CALIFORNIA. IT'S IN SAN FRANCISCO. THERE ARE A LOT OF REALLY GREAT ECONOMIC SORT OF TAILWINDS, AND SO BANK OF ITALY SORT OF BECOMES BANK OF CALIFORNIA AND IT IS NOW BANK OF AMERICA. >> WAIT, WAIT, BANK OF AMERICA STARTED AS THE BANK OF ITALY? >> BANK OF AMERICA IS A CONSORTIUM OF A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT BANKS, BUT, YES, IT STARTS AS BANK OF ITALY THAT TURNS INTO BANK OF AMERICA. REALLY, SO DO ITALIANS, RIGHT? ITALIANS ARE AMERICANS, AS ARE ALL OF US, BUT I THINK LOOKING AT THE WAY THE BANK WORKS REALLY SHOWS HOW CERTAIN IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN INCLUDED AND OTHERS HAVE NOT. >> YOU ALSO GIVE A CASE STUDY OF THE FACT THAT AFRICAN-AMERICANS, EVEN WHEN THEY'VE ATTAINED SOME ECONOMIC SUCCESS, ARE OFTEN TARGETED FOR IT. AND YOU GIVE THE EXAMPLE OF THE TULSA RIOTS. WHAT I'M HEARING FROM YOU AND WHAT I READ IN YOUR BOOK IS THAT -- IS THAT A LOT OF WHAT WE HAVE SORT OF SEEN AS, YOU KNOW, POLICE VIOLENCE AND, YOU KNOW, OTHER FORMS OF OPPRESSION REALLY ARE ECONOMIC TERRORISM. IT'S REALLY INTENDED AS MUCH TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE IN A PHYSICAL SENSE AS IT IS TO KIND OF DEPRIVE THEM OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO GAIN EQUALITY THROUGH ECONOMIC STANDINGS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT OTHER GROUPS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ATTAIN. IS THERE ANY PLACE THAT CONTRADICTED THAT PATTERN? I MEAN, YOU DO TALK ABOUT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA. CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT? >> DURHAM I SORT OF CONTRAST WITH TULSA IN THAT DURHAM UNDERSTAND THEY WERE IN A VERY PRECARIOUS SITUATION, THERE WERE ALSO VERY SUCCESSFUL BLACK BUSINESSES, BUT THEY PURPOSEFULLY DID NOT BUILD THE TALLEST BUILDING IN TOWN. THEY BUILT A SMALLER, MORE HUMBLE BUILDING, RIGHT? SO THEY KEPT THAT WEALTH MORE HIDDEN AND SORT OF SECONDARY TO THE WHITE STRUCTURAL, WHEN YOU'RE A MINORITY GROUP IN A MAJORITY ENVIRONMENT, WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE SURVIVAL DICTATES, APPARENTLY, THE ROUTE THAT DURHAM WENT. BUT I WILL SAY ON THAT TERRORISM POINT AND THE RIOT POINT, I MEAN, THE MAJORITY OF U.S. HISTORY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT TERRORISM, WE TALK ABOUT RIOTS AND VIOLENCE. IT IS WHITE VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACKS. OKAY? THE PARAMILITARY VIOLENCE OF THE KLAN. THE RIOTS IN THE NORTH. AND JUST, QUITE FRANKLY, JUST PARTICULAR DOMESTIC TERRORISM. ANY TIME A BLACK FAMILY MOVED INTO A WHITE BLOCK, THERE ARE COUNTLESS STORIES AND I TELL A FEW OF THEM WHERE A BLACK DOCTOR OR SOME WEALTHY BLACK PERSON WILL MOVE INTO A WHITE COMMUNITY, JESSE BINGEA, A BLACK BANKER IN CHICAGO THAT I HIGHLIGHT, HIS HOUSE WAS BOMBED, LIKE, TEN TIMES AND HE KEPT MOVING. I'M AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, I CAN LIVE WHERE I WANT. DR. SWEET MOVED INTO A BUILDING AND A WHITE MOB GATHERED AND THEY STARTED THROWING BRICKS AND SETTING A FIRE, AND THEY -- HE WAS ARMED AND BROUGHT HIS FRIENDS AND THEY KIND OF SHOT OUT IN SELF-DEFENSE, WHICH IS THEIR RIGHT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, TO PROTECT HIS HOME. AND HE GETS CHARGED WITH MURDER BECAUSE SOMEONE IN THE CROWD IS KILLED BY ONE OF THE BULLETS. AND SO YOU HAVE ACTUALLY A PATTERN OF WHITE VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK HOMEOWNERS. SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CAPITALISM, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHOSE PROPERTY ARE PROTECTED BY THE LAWS, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, MAX WEBER TALKS ABOUT THE MONOPOLY OF VIOLENCE THAT A STATE HOLDS. SO WE TALK ABOUT WHOSE PROPERTY IS THE STATE PROTECTING AND WHOSE PROPERTY IS IT NOT PROTECTING? >> YOU KNOW, ON THE QUESTION OF CAPITALISM, YOU SORT OF MANGE THE POINT IN THE BOOK THAT BLACK CAPITALISM HAS SORT OF BEEN EMBRACED ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM THROUGHOUT TIME. FROM FREDERICK DOUGLAS, TO RICHARD NIXON TO BARACK OBAMA WHO ARE ALL, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, IN THEORY, IT SHOULD WORK, RIGHT? IN THEORY IT SHOULD WORK. IT GOES BACK TO ONE OF THE CORE PRINCIPLES OF YOUR BOOK IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT WEALTH, THERE IS -- POLITICAL EQUALITY IS VERY HARD TO ATTAIN. SO WHY HASN'T IT WORKED? >> SO NIXON REALLY STAKED HIS ADMINISTRATION ON BLACK CAPITALISM AND I FOCUS A LOT ON IT IN THE BOOK BECAUSE THAT'S KIND OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. THE THEORY, LOOK, WHAT BLACK COMMUNITIES NEED IS MORE CAPITALISM AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP. HIS OPPONENT DURING THAT ELECTION IN 1968, HUBERT HUMPHREY, WHO SAID YOU CAN'T HAVE BLACK CAPITALISM WITHOUT CAPITAL, RIGHT? AND THAT'S ESSENTIALLY THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IN THE BOOK. THAT'S THE POINT FREDERICK DOUGLAS MAKES. FREDERICK DOUGLAS BELIEVES IN CAPITALISM, BUT HE SAYS YOU CAN'T HAVE FREEDOM, YOU CAN'T HAVE CAPITALISM WITHOUT LAND, RIGHT? BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T HAVE LAND, YOU ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE FREEDOM. THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS. FREDERICK DOUGLAS WAS PROVED RIGHTLY IN THE POST-CIVIL WAR ERA IS BECAUSE SLAVES DIDN'T HAVE LAND, THEY LOST THE VOTE, THEY LOST ACCESS TO POLITICAL SYSTEMS, THEY LOST EQUALITY AND FREEDOM. WE CAN KEEP TALKING ABOUT ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND OPPORTUNITY ZONES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE STRUCTURES OF HOW CAPITAL -- CAPITALISM WORKS AND THE LAWS OF CAPITALISM ARE CAPITAL JUST GROWS UNTO ITSELF, RIGHT? IF YOU DON'T HAVE CAPITAL, YOU -- IT'S REALLY HARD TO GET CAPITAL. IF THE STRUCTURE OF CAPITALISM IS JUST GOING TO KEEP SORT OF PERPETUATING CERTAIN THINGS TOWARD CAPITAL, RIGHT? SO I THINK LOOKING AT HOMES TODAY, RIGHT, LOOKING AT THE WAY THAT PROPERTY INCREASES IN VALUE OR DECREASES IN VALUE. WHEN YOU STILL SEE THAT WEALTHY BLACK PEOPLE, THEIR PROPERTIES AREN'T INCREASING IN VALUE IF THEY LIVE IN A PREDOMINATELY BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD. THAT'S CAPITALISM, RIGHT? THAT'S THE MARKET CODING THE RACIAL PREFERENCES OF MARKET PARTICIPANTS. INSOFAR AS THE MARKET IS COATED WITH RACISM, CAPITALISM IS NOT GOING TO WORK. BUT I ALSO WANT TO MAKE THE POINT THAT WE ACTUALLY NEVER REALLY HAD TRUE CAPITALISM IN AMERICA. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST MYTHS, WE'VE HAD A LOT OF SUBSIDIES FOR WHITE FAMILIES. THE FHA, THE NEW DEAL, GI BILLS, FHA, THAT WAS NOT CAPITALISM. THAT WAS THE GOVERNMENT COMING IN, MAKING MAPS OF CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS AND GUARANTEEING MORTGAGES IN WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS AND NOT GUARANTEEING THEM IN BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS. SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK FOR WHERE CAPITALISM HAS BEEN, IT'S BEEN IN THE BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS. THEY'VE HAD NO GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES, WHEREAS WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS HAVE HAD GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES. LOOKING AT THE TAX CODE, WE HAVE A TAX CODE THAT BENEFITS THE MIDDLE CLASS THROUGH OUR MORTGAGE INTEREST DEDUCTIONS, COLLEGE SAVING BILL. SO I JUST WANT US TO THINK HARD WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CAPITALISM. >> SO GIVE US SOME IDEAS, SOME OF YOUR IDEAS FOR HOW YOU WOULD CORRECT THIS. >> IT REALLY IS SIMPLE. I MEAN, WE KNOW HOW TO CREATE WEALTH FOR FAMILIES. WE DID IT THROUGH THE FHA. WE DID IT THROUGH THE NEW DEAL. SO I'VE SUGGESTED, YOU KNOW, A NEW HOMESTEAD ACT THAT TAKES SOME OF THE BENEFITS OF THE LAST HOMESTEAD ACT, WITHOUT SOME OF THE BAD PARTS, AND LOOKS AT HOW, YOU KNOW, CITIES EVOLVE AND LOOKING AT SORT OF REVITALIZATION THAT IS NOW GENTRIFICATION, RIGHT? SO WHAT YOU HAVE IN A LOT OF SPACES RIGHT NOW IS THE STRIPPING OF BLACK SPACES AS WHITES ARE COMING BACK IN, RIGHT? SO THE FHA WHITES LEFT TO GO TO THE WHITE SUPERBS AND WERE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, GAIN FROM THAT. NOW YOU HAVE THE REVERSE TREND, SO A LOT OF BLACK FAMILIES ARE GETTING DISPOSSESSED OF THEIR HOMES AND BEING RESEGREGATED INTO DIFFERENT AREAS. SO DISRUPTING THOSE PATTERNS AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO HAVE EQUITY AS THEIR PROPERTIES REVITALIZE. I THINK LOOKING REALLY HARD AT WHAT REPARATIONS LOOKS LIKE. EVERY SOCIETY THAT HAS TAKEN FROM, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THE HOLOCAUST, YOU LOOK AT SOUTH AFRICA, YOU LOOK AT THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT. WE HAVE DONE REPARATIONS. WE AS AMERICANS HAVE DONE REPARATIONS. OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DONE SIGNIFICANT HARM TO A MINORITY IN BREACH OF THE SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT WE PROMISE, OUR CONSTITUTION PROMISED EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW IN THE 13th, 14th AND SAth AMENDMENTS AND THOSE PROMISES WERE VIOLATED. SO WHAT DOES DAMAGES LOOK LIKE? HOW DO WE MAKE THAT RIGHT? YOU CAN CALL IT REPERCUSSIONS. YOU CAN CALL IT DAMAGES. YOU CAN CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT TO. BUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IS THE HARM AND GO TO STEP TWO AND THREE, HOW 2003 ACTUALIZE SOME REMEDIES. >> TALK BRIEFLY IF YOU WOULD ABOUT POSTAL BANKING. THAT'S ONE OF THE IDEAS YOU'VE BECOME KNOWN FOR. WHAT IS POSTAL BANKING AND WHY IS THAT SOMETHING YOU THINK WOULD HELP? >> YEAH, SO POSTAL BANKING IS ACTUALLY AN IDEA THAT IS BEYOND JUST FOR THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP, BUT FOR ANY COMMUNITIES THAT ARE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, IN BANKING DESERTS NOW. WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IN THE BANKING SECTOR IS A CONKILOMETERATION AND NO MEMBERS OF THE JURY HA IT CLOSES UP BANKS IN AREAS THAT ARE LESS PROFITABLE. TALKING ON RURAL AREAS IN THE SOUTH, IN THE WEST, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY. WHITE, BLACK AREAS THAT ARE LOW-INCOME THAT ARE JUST NOT PROFITABLE FOR A BANK. WHAT HAPPENS IN THESE AREAS, PEOPLE HAVE TO DRIVE 30 MILES TO AN ATM AT A 7-ELEVEN AND PAY $7.50, RIGHT? OR THEY CAN GO TO WALMART OR A PAY DAY LENDER OR A CHECK CASHER TO GET THEIR FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS. THE IDEA WITH A POSTAL BANK IS ACTUALLY HAVE A POST OFFICE BY ITS ORIGINAL MISSION IS IN EVERY COMMUNITY, JUST ALLOW FOR SAMPLE BANKING. SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A DEBIT CARD SO YOU CAN PARTICIPATE IN NATIONWIDE COMMERCE AND A CHECKING ACCOUNT SO YOU CAN PAY YOUR BILLS ONLINE AND NOT HAVE TO OPERATE IN CASH. THIS IS A SIMPLE IDEA THAT I THINK WOULD BENEFIT A TON OF COMMUNITIES, NOT JUST BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, BUT CERTAINLY ALSO -- I DON'T THINK THAT'S A SOLUTION TO THE VAST RACIAL WEALTH GAP. I THINK WE NEED BIGGER GUNS FOR THAT, BUT THIS IS A SOLUTION TO A PROBLEM OF, YOU KNOW, POOR FAMILIES SPENDING 10% OF THEIR INCOME ON FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS THAT THE REST OF US DON'T PAY FOR BECAUSE WE HAVE BANK ACCOUNTS. >> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. IT'S AN HONOR. >> EXPLORING IMPORTANT SOLUTIONS. AND A NOTE THAT THE BOOK, "THE COLOR OF MONEY," WAS ONE OF THE INSPIRATIONS BEHIND NETFLIX'S NEW PLEDGE TO INVEST $100 MILLION INTO FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT BLACK COMMUNITIES, SO THAT IS VERY GOOD. >>> AND FINALLY, A MONUMENT MOMENT FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER HERE IN THE UK. TODAY THE TOPPLED STATUE OF THE SLAVE TRADER EDWARD COLSTON WAS SECRETLY REPLACED WITH THIS SCULPTURE OF A PROTESTER WHO HELPED BRING DOWN LAST MONTH IN BRISTOL. HER NAME IS JEN REED. SHOWING HERE RAISING HER FIST IN A BLACK POWER SALUTE, THE FIGURE IS CALLED "A

SURGE OF POWER

2020". AND IT'S BASED ON A PHOTOGRAPH OF REED WHO ACTUALLY CLIMBED ON TO THE EMPTY PLINTH AFTER THE COLSTON STATUE WAS DUMPED INTO THE HARBOR BY DEMONSTRATORS. HERE'S HOW SHE REACTED TO THE DEVELOPMENT. >> AMAZING. IT LOOKS LIKE IT BELONGS THERE. IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN THERE FOREVER. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S INCREDIBLE FOR THE MOVEMENT. YOU KNOW, IT JUST SHOWS WHAT CAN COME OUT OF A PROTEST AND HOW, YOU KNOW, IT'S MOVING FORWARD. IT'S TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE EDUCATING THEMSELVES AS TO WHY WE HAVE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENTS. >> THE NEW FIGURE WAS ERECTED BY THE BRITISH ARTIST MARK QUINN. AND AT THE BASE OF THE STATUE THE WORDS "BLACK LIVES STILL MATTER". THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT. REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.