Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC HAS TURNED EDUCATION AROUND THE WORLD INTO CHAOS AND FORCED STUDENTS AND TEACHERS TO ADAPT TO NEW AND OFTEN FRUSTRATED WAYS OF LEARNING. OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS, IT'S NOT ALL BAD NEWS. HE SPENT YEARS AT GOOGLE WORKING OUT HOW TECHNOLOGY CAN BE USED TO IMPROVE OUR LEARNING EXPERIENCES. RENAMED THE EDUCATION ANALYST, HERE IS JAIME CASAP TALKING TO OUR ANA CABRERA. >> HI. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> THIS IS SUCH A STRESSFUL TIME FOR STUDENTS AND PARENTS AND ADMINISTRATORS, BUT YOU SAY THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS THE GREATEST THING TO HAPPEN TO EDUCATION EVER. HOW DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY? >> I TEND TO EXAGGERATE FOR FUNCTION, RIGHT? I THINK THE EDUCATION SYSTEM HAS BEEN DOING AN AMAZING JOB FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND IT'S SET UP TO DO A FACTORY MODEL ECONOMY WHERE WE NEEDED PEOPLE TO FOLLOW REPETITIVE TASKS. THAT HAPPENED FOR A VERY LONG TIME. WHAT HAPPENED SINCE, THE WORLD HAS DRAMATICALLY CHANGED, AND BECAUSE IT'S DRAMATICALLY CHANGED, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AND MAKE SURE THAT SYSTEM REFLECTS WHAT THE NEW ECONOMY LOOKS LIKE. BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC, WHAT WE'LL BE GOING THROUGH IS A WHOLE BUNCH OF RENOVATION, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE'RE TRYING TO TAKE THE CLASSROOM MODEL WHERE A TEACHER STANDS IN THE CLASSROOM IN FRONT OF 30 STUDENTS AND WE'RE TRYING TO REPLICATE THAT ONLINE WHERE THERE IS A TEACHER ON A VIDEO AND 30 STUDENTS TRYING TO PAY ATTENTION. WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS THAT EDUCATION LEADERS AND RESEARCHERS ARE GOING TO SAY, THIS ISN'T GOING TO WORK, WE NEED TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW. THAT'S WHAT I THINK WILL HAPPEN IN THE NEXT COUPLE MONTHS IS WE'LL START TO SEE NEW INNOVATION IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, SO I THINK WE NEEDED THIS PUSH IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, OR YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN GRADUAL CHANGE BUT IT WOULD HAVE MOVED REALLY SLOWLY AND THE WORLD MOVES TOO FAST FOR THAT. >> WHAT NEEDS TO APPEAR RIGHT NOW? OBVIOUSLY GETTING FROM HERE TO THERE IS A CHALLENGE RIGHT NOW. >> I'VE BEEN IN THE EDUCATION SPACE FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS. WHEN WE LAUNCHED GOOGLE APPS AND CHROMEBOOKS, WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT SCHOOLS WITH COMPUTER LABS. WE NEED A DEVICE ONE ON ONE, A DEVICE WHERE WE CAN CREATE THINGS. PHONES ARE GREAT, KIDS HAVE PHONES, BUT IT'S VERY PASSIVE. WHAT WE NEED ARE DEVICES IN KIDS' HANDS SO THEY CAN CREATE THINGS. SO ONE OF THE COMPONENTS WE NEED TO DO IS TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR KIDS, OUR STUDENTS, HAVE ACCESS TO THE TECHNOLOGY. THOSE OF US THAT HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT EQUITY IN EDUCATION FOR A VERY LONG TIME HAVE BEEN SCREAMING ABOUT EQUITY IN EDUCATION, AND I THINK THAT AWARENESS IS NOW THERE. IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO A LOT OF ACTION. >> THE AWARENESS IS THERE, BUT LOGISTICAL CHALLENGES ARE STILL FUNDING, RIGHT? WE HEAR SCHOOLS ARE LOOKING AT $30 BILLION IN PLACES LIKE NEW YORK AND $3 BILLION IN PLACES LIKE COLORADO, AND WE HAVE THEM DEADLOCKED ON STIMULUS. WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. WE START WITH THE FOCUS. I THINK SCHOOLS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A SECOND THOUGHT. BACK TO THIS AWARENESS THING, NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE AWARENESS RIGHT-HAND EQUITY ISSUES, I HAVE TEACHER FRIENDS SHOPPING IN THE SUPERMARKET, AND THEY ARE RECOGNIZED IN A STORE AND STUDENTS WILL SAY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. IT'S LIKE SHE'S IN THE MILITARY. TEACHERS ARE IMPORTANT. EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. SCHOOLS ARE IMPORTANT TO OUR COMMUNITY AS OPPOSED TO THIS THING WE JUST TOOK ADVANTAGE OF. I THINK IT STARTS WITH THIS IDEA THAT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IN OUR COMMUNITY SHOULD BE THE CENTRAL POINT. SO I THINK THAT -- WHAT I'M HOPING WILL HAPPEN IS THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, STATE GOVERNMENTS, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND CORPORATIONS THAT LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES START TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT WE SEE EDUCATION IN OUR SCHOOLS AS THE CENTRAL POINT IN OUR COMMUNITY, AND THAT WE START FUNDING THOSE SCHOOLS AT THE LEVELS THAT WE NEED SO WE HAVE THE RIGHT EDUCATORS IN PLACE, SO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TECHNOLOGY IN PLACE, SO WE HAVE THE RIGHT SYSTEM IN PLACE, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS STARTING TO RECOGNIZE HOW IMPORTANT SCHOOLS ARE. LOOK, MONEY IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WILL ALWAYS BE AN ISSUE, BUT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO WHAT OUR PRIORITIES ARE. WHAT I'M HOPING HAPPENS THROUGH THIS PROCESS IS THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN WE SEE EDUCATION AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PRIORITIES WE CAN FOCUS ON, AND THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN SOMETHING THAT WE WANTED, AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT CHROMEBOOKS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN PART OF THAT IN EDUCATION, AND WE ARE SEEING MORE WIDESPREAD USE OF THIS KIND OF DEVICE. YOU LAUNCHED THIS SEVERAL YEARS AGO. YOU COULDN'T HAVE PREDICTED WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW WITH THIS PANDEMIC. DID YOU EVER IMAGINE THE SCALE ON WHICH THEY WOULD BE USED? >> NO. I WAS AT GOOGLE FOR 15 YEARS FOCUSED ON EDUCATION AND TRYING TO BRING TECHNOLOGY TO EDUCATION. MOSTLY BECAUSE I THINK IT LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD. I THINK IT'S A GREAT EQUALIZER WHEN IT COMES TO ACCESS TO INFORMATION. INFORMATION EQUALS EDUCATION, HAVING ACCESS TO THAT EDUCATION AS CHEAPLY AS POSSIBLE IS AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT TO THIS, SO THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY FOCUS WHEN I WAS AT GOOGLE, SO THE CHROMEBOOK TO ME WAS A DEVICE THAT COULD NOT JUST BENEFIT THE USER, NOT ONLY DID IT BOOT UP IN FIVE SECONDS, NOT ONLY WAS IT CHEAP, NOT ONLY WAS IT EASY TO USE, NOT ONLY COULD ANYBODY USE THEM, THEY WERE GREAT FOR THE ADMINISTRATOR. WHEN YOU'RE RUNNING A SCHOOL, MOST SCHOOLS ARE SMALL SCHOOLS, SO THE TECH DIRECTOR ALSO HAPPENS TO BE THE BASKETBALL COACH AND HISTORY TEACHER. AND WHEN YOU THROW 2,000 MACHINES INTO A SCHOOL, IT GETS COMPLICATED VERY FAST. SO WHAT I SAW THE POTENTIAL OF THE CHROMEBOOK WAS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY SCALE VERY FAST. SO YOU CAN HAVE ONE PERSON LITERALLY MANAGE 120,000 CHROMEBOOKS IN A SCHOOL DISTRICT, AND THAT WAS GOING TO BENEFIT ALL THE STUDENTS AND ALL THE EDUCATORS BECAUSE NOW THEY HAD ACCESS TO ALL THE TOOLS OUT THERE, BECAUSE EVERYTHING WE DO IS ONLINE, SO HAVING ACCESS TO ALL THESE RESOURCES WAS IMPORTANT. >> I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO ISSUE CHROMEBOOKS TO OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT DURING THE PANDEMIC. HOWEVER, I HEAR TEACHERS ARE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THINGS LIKE, OH, THE AUDIO DROPPED OUT, THE WI-FI HAD A BLIP, SO I DO WORRY THAT THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION IS SUFFERING. >> YEAH, BUT I THINK IT'S MORE WHAT WE'RE TEACHING STUDENTS THAN THE TECHNOLOGY. THE INNOVATION IS GOING TO HAPPEN. YOU HAVE THOSE BUGS, THOSE THINGS HAPPEN, BUTTONS AREN'T IN THE RIGHT PLACE. THOSE ARE EASY TO FIX. YOU GO TO ZOOM AND YOU SAY, HEY, ZOOM, THERE ARE PEOPLE BOMBING OUR MEETINGS. LET'S JUST SET UP A PASSWORD. THOSE THINGS WILL GET FIXED OVER TIME. I'M MORE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT WE'RE TEACHING OUR STUDENTS. BECAUSE IF WHAT WE'RE TEACHING STUDENTS ARE THINGS THAT MACHINES CAN DO BETTER, WE'RE FAILING THEM, RIGHT? SO YOU GOT 45 MINUTES OF CHEMISTRY, 45 MINUTES OF HISTORY, 45 MINUTES OF MATH, 45 MINUTES OF LITERATURE. THAT'S NOT GOING TO CUT IT, RIGHT? WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS REALLY FOCUS ON THOSE HUMAN SKILLS THAT OUR STUDENTS NEED. BUT I THINK ABOUT MY SIX-YEAR-OLD AND THE SKILLS THAT I WANT HER TO HAVE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SUBJECT AREAS, IT HAS TO DO WITH COLLABORATION, PROBLEM SOLVING, CRITICAL THINKING, THE ABILITY TO LEARN, CREATIVITY. THOSE ARE THE THINGS OUR STUDENTS NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DO REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE SUBJECT IS. >> WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THE IMPORTANCE OF COLLABORATION AND PROBLEM SOLVING, AND A LOT OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS ARE DEVELOPED IN THE CLASSROOM, AREN'T THEY, WITH THOSE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN STUDENTS, THE ABILITY OF THE STUDENT TO ASK A QUESTION OF THE TEACHER, THE HANDS-ON LEARNING THAT TAKES PLACE SO OFTEN. SO ARE YOU ADVOCATING REMOTE LEARNING IN PLACE OF IN-CLASS LEARNING, OR DO YOU SEE IT BEING A LITTLE BIT OF EVERYTHING? >> YEAH, NO, I THINK IT'S A HYBRID MODEL, RIGHT? IT'S A COMBINATION OF LEARNING ONLINE, LEARNING BECAUSE YOU HAVE A DEVICE IN FRONT OF YOU, AND THEN GOING OUT AND DOING IT. THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. SO GOING OUT AND COLLABORATING, DOING IT. YOU AND I ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION. WE'RE COLLABORATING OVER THIS TOPIC AND WE'RE DOING IT ONLINE. WOULD IT BE BETTER IF WE SAT IN THE SAME PLACE FACE TO FACE AND HAD THAT? ABSOLUTELY, BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT WE HAVE. THIS ISN'T A LONG-TERM SOLUTION, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT WILL GO ON FOREVER, BUT THIS IDEA OF LEARNING AND THEN GOING AND DOING AND LEARNING AND DOING, AND WHAT WE HAVE IN SCHOOLS RIGHT NOW, WHAT YOUR KIDS AND MY KIDS HAVE ISN'T THAT. WE THINK THAT KIDS ARE IN SCHOOL COLLABORATING, BUT THEY'RE NOT. THEY'RE SITTING IN A CLASSROOM QUIETLY LISTENING TO SOMEONE SPEAK FOR SIX HOURS, AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO GET US THERE. >> SO I'M HEARING YOU SAY IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR STUDENTS TO LEARN HOW TO USE TECHNOLOGY. >> YEAH. WE'VE GIVEN THIS GENERATION A PASS, RIGHT? WHEN I TALK TO STUDENTS, I TELL THEM THEY'VE BEEN LIED TO. WE CALL THIS GENERATION THE DIGITAL GENERATION. WE CALL THEM THE INTERNET GENERATION. WE TELL THEM, YOU WERE BORN WITH TECHNOLOGY, YOU JUST KNOW HOW TO DO IT, YOU'RE NATURAL AT IT. IT'S NOT TRUE. STANFORD HAS SOME GREAT STUDIES THAT SHOW US 80% OF HIGH SCHOOL KIDS CAN'T PICK OUT THE FAKE STORY OUT OF FOUR STORIES PRESENTED TO THEM. ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT A NEW SITE IS. WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE SKILLS THEY NEED, NOT JUST HOW TO PUSH BUTTONS BUT HOW TO MAKE SENSE OF INFORMATION, HOW TO KNOW WHETHER SOMETHING IS CREDIBLE OR NOT. WE'VE FAILED THIS GENERATION BECAUSE WE'VE TOLD THEM THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD WITH TECHNOLOGY, SO THEY DON'T TURN AROUND AND ASK US A LOT OF QUESTIONS, BECAUSE WE PUT IN THEIR HEAD, WAIT, I'M SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD WITH THIS. I DON'T KNOW HOW FIBER WORKS, I DON'T KNOW HOW THE INTERNET WORKS, I DON'T KNOW HOW BLUETOOTH WORKS. SO WE REALLY NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND HELP THEM WITH THE DIGITAL INSTRUMENTS THEY NEED. >> TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS, IT'S NOT JUST ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY. A REPORT IN UNICEF IN "SAVE THE CHILDREN" SAID THE PANDEMIC HAS LED TO A 15% INCREASE OF CHILDREN LIVING IN POVERTY RIGHT NOW, AND THAT LEADS TO 150 MILLION CHILDREN WHO DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO NOT ONLY EDUCATION, BUT TO HOUSING, SANITATION. THE CEO OF SAVE THE CHILDREN SAID, QUOTE, THIS PANDEMIC HAS ALREADY CAUSED THE BIGGEST GLOBAL EDUCATION EMERGENCY IN HISTORY, AND THE INCREASE IN POVERTY WILL MAKE IT VERY HARD FOR THE MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN AND THEIR FAMILIES TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS. HOW DO YOU MAKE SURE THOSE MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN AND COMMUNITIES AREN'T LEFT BEHIND, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME FAMILIES ARE JUST TRYING TO SURVIVE? >> YEAH. LOOK, I'M A FIRST GENERATION AMERICAN. I GREW UP ON WELFARE AND FOOD STAMPS IN HELL'S KITCHEN IN NEW YORK, IN THE '70s AND '80s WHEN THE NAME WAS DESERVED BACK THEN. I GREW UP POOR. I GREW UP MANY MONTHS SOME DAYS WITHOUT FOOD, SO THIS IS PERSONAL TO ME, RIGHT? THE IDEA OF THAT, THAT KIDS ARE GROWING UP WITH THAT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD I FEEL PERSONALLY. I THINK EDUCATION IS THE KEY TO THIS, AND I THINK WE SHOULD FOCUS ON EDUCATION, AND I GET THAT THIS IS A TERRIBLE THING THAT'S HAPPENING TO US. LOOKING AT THIS AS A GLASS HALF FULL OPPORTUNITY, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS AS EDUCATION HAS BECOME A PRIORITY, IT HAS TO BECOME SOMETHING WE'RE FOCUSED ON BECAUSE, IN MY OPINION, IT'S THE THING THAT HELPS STUDENTS GET OUT OF POVERTY, LEARNING HOW TO DO STUFF, LEARNING A CRAFT, WE HAVE A LONG-TAIL ECONOMY WHERE ANY KID CAN PICK UP A LAPTOP AND HAVE A GREAT IDEA AND AND HAVE A BUSINESS RUNNING, RIGHT? THAT'S THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN. >> I KNOW YOU FOCUS RIGHT NOW IN YOUR WORK ON EQUITY AND DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION IN PARTNERSHIP WITH HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEMS AND SCHOOL SYSTEMS. WHY DO YOU THINK COMMUNITIES OF COLOR ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED WITH FEWER RESOURCES THAN OTHERS IN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS? >> THERE ARE MANY REASONS, AND WE CAN GO BACK TO THE EARLY 1800s TO DIVE INTO THESE REASONS, STRUCTURAL THINGS WE'VE DONE IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, BUT RIGHT NOW THE MAIN THING WE CAN FOCUS ON IS THE FUNDING ISSUE, RIGHT? THIS IDEA THAT WE FUND SCHOOL, WE FUND EDUCATION BASED ON ZIP CODES. IF YOU LIVE IN A GREAT ZIP CODE, YOUR SCHOOL DOESN'T HAVE MUCH MONEY. BUT IF YOU LIVE IN A BAD ZIP CODE, YOU HAVE MORE MONEY. WE DON'T FIND OTHER PUBLIC SERVICES LIKE THAT. THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN A RICH NEIGHBORHOOD DOESN'T HAVE BETTER POLICE CARS THAN IN A POOR NEIGHBORHOOD. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. SO I THINK THE FIRST THING WE CAN DO IS UNDERSTAND. WHAT IT MEANS -- AND MANY PEOPLE THINK EQUITY MEANS EQUALITY, AND YOU HAVE A SCHOOL DISTRICT AND THEY SHOULD FUND THEM THE SAME. THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEANS. IT MEANS THAT THIS SCHOOL DISTRICT HAS MORE STRUCTURE, AND THAT'S WHAT EQUITY IS. >> WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO STUDENTS STRUGGLING WITH EDUCATION RIGHT NOW? >> WHEN I THINK ABOUT EDUCATION, AND I DO A LOT OF PRESENTATIONS AND I START WITH THIS IDEA THAT EDUCATION DISRUPTS POVERTY. WHAT I MEAN BY EDUCATION, I DON'T MEAN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. EDUCATION, MAKING YOURSELF A BETTER PERSON, MAKING YOUR SMARTER. I WAS ONE OF THOSE TOO, RIGHT? YOU DON'T REALLY FIND YOURSELF FOR A VERY LONG TIME. I DON'T ASK THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO BE WHEN THEY GROW UP, THAT QUESTION DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ANYMORE. THAT QUESTION IS AN OLD WORLD QUESTION. THE QUESTION I ASK STUDENTS IS THIS. WHAT PROBLEM DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE? WE'RE NATURAL PROBLEM SOLVERS. THAT'S WHAT WE ARE AS HUMAN BEINGS. WHAT PROBLEM DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE? IF YOU DON'T KNOW, SPEND SOME TIME THINKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A GLOBAL PROBLEM, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE CLIMATE CHANGE, IT CAN BE HOW TO MAKE CARS GO FASTER OR HOW TO SELL MORE WIDGETS, BUT WHAT KIND OF PROBLEM DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE? AND THEN HOW DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM? HOW DO YOU WANT TO TAKE YOUR GIFTS, YOUR TALENTS, YOUR PASSIONS AND SOLVE THAT PROBLEM, BECAUSE THERE ARE A MILLION WAYS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS AND TACKLE PROBLEMS. THEN THE LAST QUESTION I ASK STUDENTS IS, WHAT DO YOU NEED TO LEARN TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM? WHAT ARE THE KNOWLEDGE, THE SKILLS AND THE ABILITIES THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE PASSIONATE ABOUT? AND HERE'S THE MAGIC OF THE WHOLE THING, IS THAT EVERYTHING THAT YOU NEED TO LEARN, EVERY SKILL THAT YOU WANT TO DEVELOP IS OUT THERE. AND THE INTERNET IS A HUGE PART OF THIS. SO GO OUT, DETERMINE WHAT THOSE SKILLS AND ABILITIES ARE AND THEN GO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM IN A WAY YOU WANT TO SOLVE IT, THAT YOU'RE PASSIONATE ABOUT, AND GO DO THAT. THAT TO ME IS WHAT EDUCATION SHOULD BE ABOUT. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. I APPRECIATE THE CONVERSATION. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.