Amanpour and Company

>> AS THE WORLD GRAPPLES WITH THIS WAR WITH INFLATION AND CLIMATE CHANGE, POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IS NEEDED MORE THAN EVER NOW. THE NEXT GUEST, THE WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN HUMORES EEST BELIEVES LEADERSHIP IS HARD TO FIND THESE DAYS. HIS BOOK, PROFILES AND IGNORANCE, HOW AMERICA'S POLITICIANS GOT DUMB AND DUMBER LOOKS AT AMERICA'S EMBRACE OF ANTI INTELLECTUAL AND HE'S JOINING TO TALK ABOUT WHY IT ENDANGERING THE NATION. >> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE. >> YOU TALK ABOUT A NEW AGE OF IGNORE RANCE WAY BACK IN AMERIC HISTORY BUT YOU START THE CONTEMPORARY AGE OF RONALD REAGAN GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA AND CALL IT THE STAGE OF RID DU -- RID KUL. -- RIDICULE. >> IT GOES BACK TO THE 17th CEN CENTURY. I WON'T GET INTO THAT. THERE IS THREE, RIDICULE, ACCEPTANCE AND CELEBRATION AND RONALD REAGAN REALLY KICKED OFF THE RIDICULE STAGE AND THE RIDICULE STAGE, POLITICIANS WERE IG IGNORANT AND HAD TO PRETEND TO BE SMART. RONALD REAGAN WAS GREAT ON TV AND WAS RECRUITEDED TO RUN FOR GLOVE NOW BUT DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING. HE KNEW VERY, VERY LITTLE AND SO THEY HAD TO PUMP HIM FULL OF INFORMATION TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE HE KNEW STUFF AND HE WON THE ELECTION BY A MILLION VOTES AND THAT GOT THE PARTY STARTED. >> YOU SAY HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING BUT LET ME ASK YOU. WHO WAS SMARTER, RONALD REAGAN OR JIMMY CARTER? >> OH, CLEARLY JIMMY CARTER AND, YOU KNOW, SMART IS INTERESTING ADJECTIVE. I'M NOT QUALIFIED AS A NUMBER L -- NEUROLOGIST TO KNOW HOW MUCH BRAIN CAPACITY SOMEONE HAS. ONE THING THAT'S IMPORTANT IS HOW MUCH INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY YOU HAVE AND THAT'S REFLECTED HOW MUCH YOU READ AND PEOPLE LIKE JIMMY CARTER RED A TON. HARRY TRUMAN READ A TON. RONALD REAGAN DIDN'T OPEN A SINGLE BOOK IN COLLEGE AND WHEN HIS CHIEF OF STAFF JAMES BAKER PREPARED A BRIEFING BOOK FOR A BIG ECONOMIC SUMMIT, HE DIDN'T TOUCH THAT AND JAMES BAKER SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THAT LAST TIME? HE SAID WELL, JIM, THE SOUND OF MUSIC WAS ON TV. >> >> LET ME DRILL DOWN ON THAT. YOU SAID RONALD REAGAN WAS NOT NEARLY AS SMART AS JIMMY CARTER. WHAT WAS THE CORRELATION OF SUCCESS THERE? RONALD REAGAN WAS A VERY SUCCESSFUL PRESIDENT GETTING DONE WHAT HE WANTED TO GET DONE. JIMMY CARTER WAS REMARKABLY UNSUCCESSFUL. WHY ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU PUTTING SO MUCH ON THIS NOTION OF QUOTE INTELLIGENCE WHEN IT DOESN'T SEEM TO CORRELATE TO SUCCESS AS A PRESIDENT? >> IT DEPENDS HOW YOU DEFINE SUCCESS, REALLY, I GUESS. I DON'T REGARD HIM AS A SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING HIS AGENDA THROUGH. WHAT HE HAD WAS IGNORANCE. HE LET THE AIDS CRISIS SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL. HE REALLY CREATED HOMELESSNESS IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT AND HE SAID THIS TO DAVID BRINKLEY, HE SAID THE HOMELESS WANT TO LIVE OUTSIDE. THEY DON'T WANT HOMES. SO IN TERMS OF IGNORANCE, YES. A GUY WHO IS VERY GOOD ON TV LIKE RONALD REAGAN, MUCH BETTER THAN JIMMY CARTER AND CLEANED HIS CLOCK IN THE DEBATE, HE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE SUCCESS ELECTORALLY AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF SUCCESS PERHAPS GETTING HIS AGENDA THROUGH BUT WHAT THAT AGENDA IS AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR AMERICA IS ANOTHER THING. READ A BOOK. >> SPEAKING OF BOOKS, THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR BOOK IS AND THIS IS ABOUT REALLY SMART PEOPLE. YOU DON'T GET SMARTER THAN MACK BUNDY OR ROBERT MACNAMAR. YOUR BOOK RID KULS PEOPLE THAT AREN'T SMART. HOW DO YOU CONTRAST THAT WITH THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST? >> SMART PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES TOO. ALL I CAN SAY IS I AM AN ELITEST IN THE SENSE I WANT PEOPLE IN POWER TO BE SMARTER THAN I AM. WE ALWAYS RULE A DICE WITH OUR LEADERS. WE ELECT THEM AND DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO, MAYBE SOME SMART ONES WILL MAKE MISTAKES, SOME DUMBER ONES MIGHT SURPRISE US BUT OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS, THE GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN ALLERGIC TO KNOWLEDGE AND REFUSE TO READ A BRIEFING BOOK AND REFUSE TO READ A BOOK OF ANY KIND HAVE GOTTEN US INTO THINGS LIKE THE WAR IN IRAQ, ONE OF THE HUGEST DIS ST DISASTERS IN OUR AND IGNORED AIDS AND THE CORONAVIRUS. SO YES, SMART PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. I CONSIDER MYSELF KIND OF SMART. I MAKE MISTAKES EVERY DAY. I'D RATHER PUT MY MONEY ON THE GUY THAT READ A BOOK. >> YOU SAY THE WAR IN IRAQ. I ASSUME YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GEORGE W. BUSH DOING IT. IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, HILLARY CLINTON WAS VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF THAT WAR SO WAS MADELEINE ALLBRIGHT. WERE THEY CDUMB? >> NO, THEY DIDN'T READ THE BRIEF THAT SAID BIN LADEN DETERMINED A STRIKE IN THE U.S. I STILL THINK YOU WANT A GUY OR A WOMAN WHO HAS THE MOST INFORMATION. AGAIN, YOU CAN LOOK AT THOSE PEOPLE AND SAY YEAH, THEY WERE SMART AND HAD BAD JUDGMENT. I'D RATHER HAVE A HILLARY CLINTON THAN SAY, DONALD TRUMP THAT DOESN'T READ ANYTHING. THAT'S MY PREFERENCE. >> YOU GO WAY BACK IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND MENTION THAT EARLIER BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT INTERESTED ME IS HARDING. YOU SAY IN SOMEWAY HE'S THE BEGINNING OF THIS. EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU THINK HARDING SORT OF EXEMPLIFIES THIS HAGUE OF IGNORANCE THAT WE ENTERED? >> IT'S FUNNY. I HAVE KIND OF A CONTRARY VIEW OF WARREN G. HARDING. HE'S GOT A RAW DEAL. IT WAS SAID HE WAS ONE OF THE DUM DUMBE EST NITWHITS. WARREN G HARDING ACTUALLY GOT A RAW DEAL. HE TRIED TO DO A LOT OF THINGS. HE ACTUALLY PROPOSED AN ANTI LYNCHING LAW, WHICH WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS AHEAD OF ITS TIME. HE WENT DOWN SOUTH AND GAVE A MAJOR CIVIL RIGHTS ADDRESS, WHICH WAS CONTROVERSIAL AND TAKING RISK. IN A WAY I'M ACTUALLY A DEFENDER OF HARDING. I'M NOT -- I DON'T -- I FEEL LIKE HE'S UNFAIRLY MINED. HE WASN'T GREAT. HE WASN'T ONE OF THE GREATEST PRESIDENTS AND HE CERTAINLY LEFT SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED BUT HE HAD STRONG POINTS. MAYBE A LITTLE UNPREDICTABLE BUT A LITTLE WARREN G. HARDING DEFENDER. >> YEAH, YOU TALK ABOUT H. H.L. MINKON, THE SMART GUY. HE WAS A RACIST. HE WAS ANTI SAY MENANTIS-SEMITI. HE WAS PRONAZI. I DON'T GET IT. >> I STILL SAY I WOULD RATHER HAVE IF I HAD TO ROLL THE DICE, I'D RATHER ROLL THE DICE ON A GUY WHO IS SMART THAN A GUY THAT HASN'T READ ANYTHING. THE WORD SMART KEEPS COMING UP. I THINK YOU AND I USE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TERMS. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MEASURE HOW SMART SOMEBODY IS. I CAN MEASURE HOW INFORMED OR INTELLECTUALLY CURIOUS THEY ARE AND THE WAY I MEASURE THAT IS BY THEIR HABITS AND WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY READ. I MEAN, ONE INTERESTING THING I LEARNED IN RESEARCHING THE BOOK WALTER IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE GREAT IN SCHOOL WEREN'T THE BEST PRESIDENTS AND SOME NOT GREAT IN SCHOOL WERE THE BEST PRESIDENTS. WHEN IT CAME TO THE DUST BOWL, HE KNEW WHAT HE DIDN'T KNOW AND SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH EXPERT THE THAT DO KNOW STUFF. HE DIDN'T LET DONALD TRUMP SAY I KNOW MORE THAN THE GENERALS. I KNOW MORE THAN THE SCIENTISTS. HE LISTENED. HE LEARNED. HE TOOK THEIR ADVICE AND THE DUST BOWL WAS RESOLVE IN A REALLY GOOD WAY. THAT WAS TO ME, TO ME, THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS. WE GET IN TROUBLE, SOME KNOW THEY'RE THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST AND AS A RESULT THEY DON'T FEEL THEY HAVE ANYTHING MORE TO LEARN. I THINK THAT'S DANGEROUS. I THINK SMART PEOPLE SOMETIMES FALL INTO THAT TRAP. IT'S BETTER I THINK TO SAY I HAVE TREMENDOUS AREAS I DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT BUT I NEED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT AND THAT'S WHERE INTELLECTUAL HUMILITY AND INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY COMES IN. >> SO YOU TALK ABOUT SARAH PALIN AND THE AGE OF ACCEPTANCE IN A WAY. TELL ME HOW SARAH PALIN LEADS US FURTHER ALONG THIS PATH? >> THE AGE OF ACCEPTANCE AND THE AGE OF RIDICULE WAS THOR RO OF RONALD REAGAN AND DAN QUAIL WHO THEY'RE POLITICIANS NOT VERY WELL INFORMED BUT WERE EXPECTED TO BE SMART AND THAT PERFORMANCE SUKE SEEDED WITH RONALD REAGAN, NOT SO MUCH WITH DAN QUAIL WHO EXPOSES IGNORANCE AT EVERY TURN. WITH GEORGE W. BUSH AND SARAH PALIN, WE MOVED INTO A NEW PHASE, WHICH IS THE AGE OF ACCEPTANCE, WHERE GEORGE W. BUSH ACCEPTED HIS IGNORANCE AND DIDN'T KNOW MUCH WAS A POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. HE BOMBED FAMOUSLY IN EARLY AMBUSH ON BOSTON RADIO WHERE A RADIO HOST ASKED HIM TO NAME FOREIGN LEADERS AND HE CAME UP EMPTY AND MISSED THREE OUT OF FOUR QUESTIONS AND HIS ADVISOR CAME OUT AND SAID, HIS SPOKESPERSON SAID WE'RE ELECTING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, NOT A JEOPARDY CONT CONTESTANT. THIS LED TOTTE THE ERA OF ACCE ACCEPTANCE. HE SAID I'M THE GUY YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE A BEER WITH THAN AL GORE. SARAH PALIN AND HER DEBATE WITH JOE BIDEN AND 2008 RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING SAID I'M NOT GOING TO ANSWER ANY OF THE QUESTIONS. IT WAS AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF CANDOR WHERE SHE'S SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO FAKE LIKE DAN QUAIL DID. I'M GOING TO GET OUT HERE AND I'M GOING TO SAY WHAT I FEEL SKPL LIKE AND A LOT OF TIMES SHE WOULD SAY THINGS THAT ARE UNTRUE AND NONSENSE. SHE SAID WE WERE ENGAGED IN A WAR WITH IRAN, WHICH WE WEREN'T AND THOUGHT SAY DDAM HUSSEIN ATTACKED US. SHE EMBRACED THE FACT SHE DIDN'T KNOW THINGS AND REPLACED FACTS WITH NON-FACTS OR WHAT BECAME KNOWN AS ALTERNATIVE FACTS OF HER OWN. >> YOU TALK ABOUT THE CELEBRATION PHASE. DOES THAT LED US TO TRUMP AND EVEN MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE? >> IT DOES. THE CELEBRATION PHASE WE'RE IN NOW, IGNORANCE IN A WAY HAS BECOME SUCH AN ASSET BUT P PREFERENCE TO PEOPLE BEING UNDER STATED. HE COMBINES ARROGANCE AND R IGNORANCE. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE THINKS A PETRI DISH IS A PEACH TREE DISH. THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME SADLY. BUT THEN I THINK THE MORE TROUBLING PHENOMENON, WE HAVE WELL EDUCATED POLITICIANS, PEOPLE YOU MAY SAY ARE WINNERS LIKE A JOSH HAWLEY OR TED CRUZ OR RON DEANNE SIS THAT HAVE THE FINEST EDUCATIONS THAT CAN BUY IN AMERICA BUT SOUNDING DUMBER THAN THEY ARE. I THINK THAT'S A SPECTACLE THAT'S SO REGRETTABLE. WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN THE AGE OF THOSE SPACE AGE AND SPACE RACE, REALLY LOOK TO PEOPLE WHO WERE SMART AND EXPERTS AND SCIENCE AND SCIENTISTS AND LEADERS OF THE STATE, I DON'T THINK THAT BODES WELL FOR US. I DON'T THINK IT'S AN ERA OF TREND. >> HOW? >> I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO STOP SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ON TWITTER, STOP WATCHING SO MUCH CABLE TV, NO OFFENSE TO PEOPLE ON TV STOP NATIONALIZING IT. WE HAVE TO START WORKING WITH A DEMOCRACY IS AT THE BEST. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN. PEOPLE HERE HAVE TO GO WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN POLITICS BUT AND RUN INTO THAT PERSON AT THE GYM NEXT WEEK AND SO I HAVE TO ACTUALLY SUBDUE MY NATURAL TENDENCY TO BE ANNOYED AND SARCASTIC AND I HAVE TO BE CIVIL INSTEAD AND I THINK WE'VE HAD TRICKLED DOWN IGNORANCE IN OUR COUNTRY WHERE LEADERS HAVE SAID IGNORE RANT THINGS AND WE AS A POPULATION HAVE GROWN MORE IGNORE RANT AS A RESULT OF THAT. WE WANT TO BELIEVE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK KNOWLEDGE FROM THE TOP. WE'RE KNOWLEDGEABLE CITIZENS AND DEMAND THE ELECTION OF KNOWLEDGEABLE LEADERS. THAT'S MY PITCH TO AMERICA. >> YOU TALK ABOUT DEMOCRATS, AS WELL. MOST OF YOUR TARGETS IN THE BOOK ARE REPUBLICANS BUT THERE IS ILL YIT SPENCER AND MANY OTHERS IN THE BOOK, I THINK, JON EDWARDS AND ANTHONY WEINER. TO WHAT EXTENT DID THEY HELP LEAD US INTO IGNORANCE? >> I THINK THESE GUYS WHO BEHAVED IN EXTREMELY SEXIST WAYS DID IT OUT OF A SENSE OF STUPIDITY BUT THINGS THEY GOT THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH THEY TRIED TO DO SO I -- ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T FOCUS ON THEIR ACTIVITIES AS MUCH AS SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE, I THINK THERE ARE SERIOUS CRIMES. >> IN THE CONCLUSION OF YOUR BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU GOT WRONG WHICH IS THAT A MORE EDUCATED POPULATION WOULD VOTE IN A WAY THAT YOU WOULD APPROVE OF AND VOTE FOR THE TEA PARTY. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE? >> YOU'RE NOT MISSING ANYTHING. ONE THING THE BOOK ABOUT IGNORANCE IS I TALK ABOUT MY OWN IGNORANCE. MY BIAS IN THE IN THE BOOK, EDUCATION IS GREAT AND WOULD MAKE OUR LIVES BETTER AND BE BETTER AT OUR JOBS AND MORE INTERESTING TO TALK TO. I DON'T THINK EDUCATION ALONE MAKES FOR BETTER VOTERS. I THINK CIVIL ENGAGEMENT WILL. I THINK THAT IF YOU ARE SITTING THERE IN A ROOM WITH SOMEBODY YOU'RE DISAGREEING WITH, YOU MAY NEVER CHANGE THEIR MIND BUT YOU MAY GET TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER SIDE BETTER. WE'RE LIVING IN A TRIABLE CULTURE AS YOU KNOW. EVERYTHING IS TRIABLIZED, THERE ARE PEOPLE NOW IN LINE SAYING DAN QUAIL SPELLED POTATO CORRECTLY WHICH I THOUGHT WAS AN INTERESTING MANIFESTATION OF HOW TRIABLE WE'VE BECOME BUT I DO HAVE FAITH AND MAYBE AGAIN THIS IS MY MIDWESTERN OPTIMISM THAT IF WE SIT IN THE SAME ROOM WITH ANOTHER PERSON AND WE'RE ACTUALLY PART OF A COMMUNITY AND THAT TO ME IS OUR LAST BEST HOPE AND IT'S REALLY NOT A QUESTION OF EVERYBODY HAS TO GET SUPER WELL EDUCATED AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE NICE FOR OTHER REASONS. I THINK THAT BEING ENGAGED IN DEMOCRACY WE GIVE PEOPLE MORE RESPECT AND MORE UNDERSTANDING OF IT AND MAYBE WE'D BE A LITTLE BIT LESS INCLINED TO TREAT DEMOCRACY AS A SPECTATOR SPORT WHERE WE'RE WAITING FOR ONE SIDE TO CRASH THE OTHER. >> ANDY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU, WALTER.