Frederica Freyberg:
The federal government shutdown extends into next week, with the U.S. Senate adjourning until Tuesday after repeated failed votes to reopen. We’re joined now by Wisconsin Democratic U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin. And Senator, thanks very much for being here.

Tammy Baldwin:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
What is your message to Wisconsinites in the face of what looks like congressional dysfunction as the shutdown grinds on?

Tammy Baldwin:
Look, nobody wants a shutdown, and I have voted seven times now to reopen the government and lower health care costs for Wisconsinites. And my constituents have been telling me loudly and clearly, they are terrified about the premium increases that they see in the near future. It’ll be just a couple weeks before Wisconsinites get those dreaded letters in the mail, telling them what their premiums will be next year. And without an extension of the Affordable Care Act premium tax credits, we are likely to see people’s premiums double, triple, even quadruple. In those states that have already released the premiums for next year, quadrupling is not unusual at all, and it is frightening for Wisconsinites. And there’s no reason why we cannot reopen the government and bring down costs. But my Republican colleagues and President Trump refused to sit down and negotiate with us, even though several of my Republican colleagues very much want to fix this Affordable Care Act tax credit issue. And I would lastly say this bill that we, you know, Trump’s signature “big ugly bill” that we debated last summer slashes a trillion dollars out of Medicaid, another health care program – BadgerCare in Wisconsin. But it was predominantly a tax measure. And what that tax measure did was send tax breaks to big corporations and multimillionaires. And what it didn’t do was extend a tax break to working Wisconsinites to help them afford their health care premiums. This is an emergency. It’s imminent, and we need to act now.

Frederica Freyberg:
Why not vote yes on the continuing resolution to fund the government and then negotiate?

Tammy Baldwin:
Look, there is no promise for a conversation, a sort of a wink and a nod that, oh, we’ll bring that up later, that is going to help our Wisconsinites who are going to get these letters in a couple of weeks. We need to create certainty in — and replace Trump’s chaos in the health care arena and other arenas with a vote to extend those tax credits now. Listen, we are seeing people get their premium notices right now across the country. We have about 5 million Americans who are estimated to not be able to afford the premiums next year if we do not act. We must act on behalf of tens of thousands of Wisconsinites and millions of Americans. And it’s really critical that we not just promise some conversation in the future. That is not sufficient for the people who’ve been pleading with me, keep on fighting to lower costs.

Frederica Freyberg:
You say that there’s an easy way out and you’ve been working on a bipartisan solution. What is the easy way out and what kind of traction are you getting on a bipartisan solution?

Tammy Baldwin:
My idea and I worked with several colleagues on this, would be to say that if we don’t act on a longer-term extension, that the default position would be that the Affordable Care Act tax credits are extended by a calendar year. But putting pressure on Congress to talk about some reforms in that system, if we want, I think that’s fair game. The other thing we have to get back to is letting Congress appropriate dollars. That is the role — it’s the role of Congress as a checks and balance to pass laws and to appropriate dollars for the federal government. These continuing resolutions are allowing President Trump to run roughshod. Since he has been president, he’s done layoffs. He’s withheld federal funds. He’s canceled grants. He’s basically conducted a government of chaos. And we need to go back to something that people can plan based on, which is our Congress doing its job. And my Republican colleagues have to stop folding to Trump’s threats and stand up and do their jobs as duly elected members of Congress.

Frederica Freyberg:
I know that the president has been talking about terminating federal employees, apparently using the shutdown as a predicate. Senator Johnson told us last week that when your company goes bankrupt, unfortunately, he said, people lose their jobs and they have to go and find employment elsewhere. He further said he doesn’t see why public sector employees should be immune to what we all have to experience in the private sector. What’s your response to that?

Tammy Baldwin:
Well, first of all, President Trump has been firing federal employees and withholding federal dollars and pulling federal grants since day one of his presidency. Tens of thousands of federal employees have lost their jobs because we’ve been under a continuing resolution. And so this is a scare tactic on Trump’s part, but he’s been doing it since day one of his second presidency. And as to layoffs and whatnot in the private sector and the public sector. Look, we’ve gone through planful restructuring, where we’ve had reductions in forces before. I held a roundtable earlier this year with employees at the VA, and they all recall a Clinton era restructuring, where it was planful, and they realized where they needed to cut and not. That’s not what this administration has been doing. When Trump ordered 80,000 people to be fired at the VA, that wasn’t a planful reduction in force. That was scattershot. It was chaos. And we owe more to our veterans than something like that.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to the current shutdown, how do you see this ending?

Tammy Baldwin:
I think the answer is so clear. Let us reopen the government. Let us extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits and then let’s pass our bills and have Congress do its job and fund the government. Not through these continuing resolutions for a week or two or a month or two, but through our regular appropriations process. That’s what Congress needs to do.

Frederica Freyberg:
Senator Tammy Baldwin, thanks very much.

Tammy Baldwin:
Thank you for having me.