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Frederica Freyberg:
U.S. Senators dug in their heels and remained at impasse as the federal government shutdown ground into its 10th day. And in an unexpected turn, the anticipated favorite Democratic candidate for governor, Josh Kaul, announced he would not be running.
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin describes the Democratic perspective on the deadlock in Washington. An election commissioner explains why he favors voters proving their citizenship. And our political panelists, Scot Ross and Bill McCoshen, run through the landscape of candidates for governor. It’s “Here & Now” for October 10.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
The federal government shutdown extends into next week, with the U.S. Senate adjourning until Tuesday after repeated failed votes to reopen. We’re joined now by Wisconsin Democratic U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin. And Senator, thanks very much for being here.

Tammy Baldwin:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
What is your message to Wisconsinites in the face of what looks like congressional dysfunction as the shutdown grinds on?

Tammy Baldwin:
Look, nobody wants a shutdown, and I have voted seven times now to reopen the government and lower health care costs for Wisconsinites. And my constituents have been telling me loudly and clearly, they are terrified about the premium increases that they see in the near future. It’ll be just a couple weeks before Wisconsinites get those dreaded letters in the mail, telling them what their premiums will be next year. And without an extension of the Affordable Care Act premium tax credits, we are likely to see people’s premiums double, triple, even quadruple. In those states that have already released the premiums for next year, quadrupling is not unusual at all, and it is frightening for Wisconsinites. And there’s no reason why we cannot reopen the government and bring down costs. But my Republican colleagues and President Trump refused to sit down and negotiate with us, even though several of my Republican colleagues very much want to fix this Affordable Care Act tax credit issue. And I would lastly say this bill that we, you know, Trump’s signature “big ugly bill” that we debated last summer slashes a trillion dollars out of Medicaid, another health care program – BadgerCare in Wisconsin. But it was predominantly a tax measure. And what that tax measure did was send tax breaks to big corporations and multimillionaires. And what it didn’t do was extend a tax break to working Wisconsinites to help them afford their health care premiums. This is an emergency. It’s imminent, and we need to act now.

Frederica Freyberg:
Why not vote yes on the continuing resolution to fund the government and then negotiate?

Tammy Baldwin:
Look, there is no promise for a conversation, a sort of a wink and a nod that, oh, we’ll bring that up later, that is going to help our Wisconsinites who are going to get these letters in a couple of weeks. We need to create certainty in — and replace Trump’s chaos in the health care arena and other arenas with a vote to extend those tax credits now. Listen, we are seeing people get their premium notices right now across the country. We have about 5 million Americans who are estimated to not be able to afford the premiums next year if we do not act. We must act on behalf of tens of thousands of Wisconsinites and millions of Americans. And it’s really critical that we not just promise some conversation in the future. That is not sufficient for the people who’ve been pleading with me, keep on fighting to lower costs.

Frederica Freyberg:
You say that there’s an easy way out and you’ve been working on a bipartisan solution. What is the easy way out and what kind of traction are you getting on a bipartisan solution?

Tammy Baldwin:
My idea and I worked with several colleagues on this, would be to say that if we don’t act on a longer-term extension, that the default position would be that the Affordable Care Act tax credits are extended by a calendar year. But putting pressure on Congress to talk about some reforms in that system, if we want, I think that’s fair game. The other thing we have to get back to is letting Congress appropriate dollars. That is the role — it’s the role of Congress as a checks and balance to pass laws and to appropriate dollars for the federal government. These continuing resolutions are allowing President Trump to run roughshod. Since he has been president, he’s done layoffs. He’s withheld federal funds. He’s canceled grants. He’s basically conducted a government of chaos. And we need to go back to something that people can plan based on, which is our Congress doing its job. And my Republican colleagues have to stop folding to Trump’s threats and stand up and do their jobs as duly elected members of Congress.

Frederica Freyberg:
I know that the president has been talking about terminating federal employees, apparently using the shutdown as a predicate. Senator Johnson told us last week that when your company goes bankrupt, unfortunately, he said, people lose their jobs and they have to go and find employment elsewhere. He further said he doesn’t see why public sector employees should be immune to what we all have to experience in the private sector. What’s your response to that?

Tammy Baldwin:
Well, first of all, President Trump has been firing federal employees and withholding federal dollars and pulling federal grants since day one of his presidency. Tens of thousands of federal employees have lost their jobs because we’ve been under a continuing resolution. And so this is a scare tactic on Trump’s part, but he’s been doing it since day one of his second presidency. And as to layoffs and whatnot in the private sector and the public sector. Look, we’ve gone through planful restructuring, where we’ve had reductions in forces before. I held a roundtable earlier this year with employees at the VA, and they all recall a Clinton era restructuring, where it was planful, and they realized where they needed to cut and not. That’s not what this administration has been doing. When Trump ordered 80,000 people to be fired at the VA, that wasn’t a planful reduction in force. That was scattershot. It was chaos. And we owe more to our veterans than something like that.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to the current shutdown, how do you see this ending?

Tammy Baldwin:
I think the answer is so clear. Let us reopen the government. Let us extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits and then let’s pass our bills and have Congress do its job and fund the government. Not through these continuing resolutions for a week or two or a month or two, but through our regular appropriations process. That’s what Congress needs to do.

Frederica Freyberg:
Senator Tammy Baldwin, thanks very much.

Tammy Baldwin:
Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
There could be a scramble ahead of 2026 elections in Wisconsin after a Waukesha County Circuit Court ruling that directs the Wisconsin Elections Commission to verify whether people registered to vote are U.S. citizens. Republican-appointed Commissioner Don Millis is here with reaction. And thanks very much for being here.

Don Millis:
My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:
So the judge’s ruling requires election officials to verify citizenship by matching voter registrations to state DOT files, with a spring primary coming up in February. How reasonable is that timeline?

Don Millis:
Well, I think it’s going to be a challenge if that’s the way the order sticks. We know that there’s going to be another hearing on October 31st, and it’s always possible that there could be modifications. Certainly, the commission does have a role in making sure that people who are on the list are eligible to vote. And, you know, we work with local clerks, 1850 local clerks, to make sure that happens. So we will see what the order ends up being and we will do our best to comply. At least that’s how I think we should be acting.

Frederica Freyberg:
So you do think it’s reasonable to prevent non-citizens from being on the voter rolls or to remove them?

Don Millis:
Well, the commission has a role in doing that. A year ago, there was a concern about a couple of Department of Transportation types of licenses that were handed or provided to visa holders and green card holders. There was a concern that those identification cards would be used for registration and/or voting. And so we issued a directive to all the clerks in the state to be on the lookout for those to see if someone presents that, indicate that that’s a great likelihood that that person is not a citizen, not impossible, they could be a citizen. And we provided instructions on how to deal with that. So we’ve taken that on that task before, and I think we’ll take it on again. It just depends on the degree and how widespread we’re required to act.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to that issue of non-citizens holding IDs, state IDs that otherwise could be used as part of the voter ID law to vote. Your commission told us when we did some reporting on this that there were only three non-citizens that have been referred for prosecution since 2019, in that way. Is this a solution in search of a problem then?

Don Millis:
Well, I don’t doubt that the issue of non-citizens voting is a very minor one. It doesn’t happen very often, but part of our role is to make sure that there’s confidence in the elections. I know I’ve told you in the past that, you know, despite the fact that we have some of the best technology available, and we can assure that our elections are fair and the results are valid. But there are — these things come up. And part of our role is to instill confidence. We have in the past, like last year when we sent that circular out, we were concerned that there was a perception that those — there was going to be widespread use of those IDs, regardless of whether there was widespread use. It was important that we instill confidence. Back in 2022, there were a couple of examples of improper requests for absentee ballots. Now those were handled properly. Those ballots were never issued. But because the public perception, we acted and we took steps to make sure that that if that happened on a widespread basis, there would be a way of making sure that those ballots wouldn’t be issued or that people, if they were issued, there’d be a way of remedying that. Again, just because something in fact doesn’t happen on a widespread basis doesn’t mean that it’s not important for us to address the perception to instill public confidence in the validity of our elections.

Frederica Freyberg:
As you mentioned, the Wisconsin Department of Justice has appealed this Waukesha County Circuit Court ruling. And while that’s under consideration, the Waukesha judge put on hold his ruling that local clerks cannot register new voters without proof of citizenship. But how would citizenship be proved?

Don Millis:
Right, well, that — I didn’t have a huge problem with much of the decision. That was one aspect of the decision. I don’t think it’s a good look to tell people you can’t register, especially if we have an opportunity to later verify. I think that it is, it is a challenge because some of our identifications that we — that are provided to citizens are also provided to non-citizens. So that is a challenge. I think it is more incumbent on the authorities, the Department of Transportation, the Elections Commission, working with local clerks to try to identify people who might not be citizens or are in fact not citizens and take remedial action.

Frederica Freyberg:
But when you register to vote, you have to check a box saying that you are a citizen under penalty of law. Is that not good enough then?

Don Millis:
I think that for 99.99% of the registrants, that is good enough. But there is, again, a perception that this could happen. And again, we shouldn’t take it lightly that, that it doesn’t happen. You know, we have, we have examples of double voting. We make referrals to district attorneys because things like that do happen. It’s not widespread, but it’s important to instill confidence and take action appropriately.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. We’ll leave it there. Commissioner Don Millis, thanks very much.

Don Millis:
Thank you. Have a good weekend.

Frederica Freyberg:
Looking ahead to the 2026 midterm elections, Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul announced this week he’s running for reelection to that office, not for governor. Where does this put the crowded race on the Democrats side and the not-so-crowded field of Republican candidates? We check in with our political analysts, Republican Bill McCoshen and Democrat Scot Ross and thanks for being here.

Bill McCoshen:
Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:
So, Scot, first to you, would it be fair to say that Josh Kaul would have been considered the front runner?

Scot Ross:
Oh, absolutely. He’s a statewide elected official who’s won twice in tough environments. So yeah, he would have been, he would have been a great candidate. He’ll be a great attorney general candidate again. And I believe that if some changes are made in terms of the environment, that he’ll win again. But, you know, Democrats have an embarrassment of riches. They have some really, really good candidates. They have some candidates who are still talking and thinking about it. But, you know, to run against, you know, what I would argue is the front runner in Tom Tiffany, who is, you know, basically an extension of Donald Trump and everything you dislike and fear about Donald Trump is embodied in Tom Tiffany. So but again, it’s about the, it’s about the environment. And I think Democrats have to do some things to change that environment.

Frederica Freyberg:
Bill, what is the reaction on the Republicans’ part to Josh Kaul not running?

Bill McCoshen:
I agree with Scot. I think he would have been the front runner the day he got in. He’s run and won statewide twice before. He’s got a record. He’s got a base, a statewide base. So it’s big news for us that one of the top tier candidates got out of the way. So that leaves Democrats — I think their bench is a little bit short. Right now, the top tier is David Crowley, Milwaukee County executive, Sarah Rodriguez lieutenant governor, and they are waiting to see whether or not former lieutenant governor Mandela Barnes gets in. That would be their top tier. And I feel pretty good about our chances against that.

Frederica Freyberg:
So this leaves Tom Tiffany, you think, who has announced his run in good shape?

Bill McCoshen:
Yeah, there’s no question Tom Tiffany is the frontrunner. I mean he’s a sitting congressman. Congressmen all have districts with 760,000 people. He’s got a base and it’s a very red base. Where he’s less known is southeastern Wisconsin. And as I pointed out, the last time Scot and I were on your show, the deficit for Tom has always been fundraising. He wasn’t very good at it. He’s already raised more than $1 million in the first two weeks in the race, including $250,000 at a single event last week. So he’s going to be our frontrunner. But I think Josh Schoemann is going to stay in the race. Josh is a — you know, he’s got a couple advantages. Josh is a younger man. He’s 24 years younger than Tiffany and he’s got geography on his side. All of the votes in a GOP primary come within 100 miles of where Josh lives.

Frederica Freyberg:
I just want to stay with you a minute, Bill, and ask you your reaction to your former boss, Governor Tommy Thompson, once again saying he’s seriously considering a run.

Bill McCoshen:
I think he’s misunderstood on that. I love Tommy Thompson. I wouldn’t be where I am without him. I think what he really was saying was, if these guys don’t get out of the blocks, I’ll be available. I’ll be in the bullpen warming up, and that would be next spring. And I don’t expect that to happen, but I love — I hope I have half the energy he has when I get to be 83 years old, and I don’t expect him to be a candidate.

Scot Ross:
He’ll be ready there to wish youngster Joe Biden a happy birthday, right? I think they — did you know that they’re born on — basically on the same day?

Bill McCoshen:
Pretty close.

Scot Ross:
Right? Yeah, but the former governor is a year older. I mean, I think the great news about Tom Tiffany being the front runner and he is the front runner, and I expect that he will be their nominee, is that that nationalizes this race because he is so tied to Trump. And, you know, the definition of fascism is an authoritarian political ideology defined by a dictatorial leader, centralized governor, and suppression of opposition. That is part and parcel of everything that has happened in these, you know, what seems like ten years, but is really nine months of Trump being in office. They have control of everything. They have control of the Supreme Court. They have control of Congress. They have control of the executive. And they are running the fascist playbook up and to and including — I watch something on Friday where they were, they were calling the march planned for October 18th, a peaceful march, saying “no kings” as a terrorist outfit. This is, this is not what America is about. And I would say to my Democratic friends, if you don’t start treating fascism like fascism and calling it out, you can’t expect people to see that America is in crisis and that we need to step up and do something about this so that we can stop it, restore the Constitution, restore our civil liberties, and stop things like marauding ICE Gestapo disappearing kids in the middle of the night.

Bill McCoshen:
Nobody on the Dem side has Tiffany’s record. He was elected to local office, to state office, state Assembly and state Senate and now Congress. So he’s eminently qualified. He is a strong, consistent conservative. So is Josh Schoemann. I think we have an embarrassment of riches on our side, and it’s going to play out pretty well.

Frederica Freyberg:
Scot, the one candidate that we’ve mentioned that has not yet entered the race on the Democratic side is former Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes. What’s your take on his entry into the race?

Scot Ross:
Well, his supporters tell me that he would be the most experienced, best campaigner to get in the race if he got in the race and that he spent — since he left office, working to restore democracy, protect democracy and lift the lives of others. You know, and I think that, you know, all of the candidates in this race have some claim to that, whether it’s David Crowley or Sarah Rodriguez or Kelda Roys. You know, they all have that claim that they have stood up for democratic values. Again, the question for me is who is going to tell it like it is and step up to this threat that America faces, because I don’t think we can win the race if we’re defined by the feckless politics of Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. You know, what is going on is — it’s unprecedented in American history. And we have to look at it that way, and we have to treat it that way because the people want nothing less than to, than to make sure that the Constitution is being upheld.

Frederica Freyberg:
So, swinging back to the race, Bill, what do you think about how formidable Barnes might be?

Bill McCoshen:
You’ve got to remember, 2022 was one of the best midterms for Democrats since Bill Clinton was in the White House in 1998, and Mandela Barnes lost. This was the first election, statewide election post Dobbs. He’s one of the few statewide Democrats to lose that night. So we’re not afraid of Mandela Barnes being their candidate. And to you — if you think Tom Tiffany is too conservative, is he more conservative than Ron Johnson who beat Mandela Barnes? I don’t think so.

Scot Ross:
I mean the thing is that Schumer left Mandela Barnes high and dry for three and a half weeks after the primary where there were no TV ads from DC coming for Barnes. You know, you know, I don’t want to relitigate that campaign but if you, if you allow your opponent to — if you allow your opponent to define you, you’re in a lot of trouble.

Bill McCoshen:
No question.

Scot Ross:
And that’s what happened in that race. I think it was, you know, again, it was a — it was a tough loss for sure, but it was one that’s explainable beyond Mandela’s.

Bill McCoshen:
The last statewide candidate in Wisconsin that came back from a statewide loss and won statewide is Bob Kasten in 1980. It’s been a long, long time.

Frederica Freyberg:
Indeed.

Scot Ross:
Oh, that’s a deep cut. Nice.

Frederica Freyberg:
I wanted to ask you both about the government shutdown and which party you think goes down as being blamed for it, and whether or not that has any kind of political legs.

Bill McCoshen:
It will. I mean, next week is payday for a lot of federal employees, and it needs to get solved. If Republicans think they’re not going to get blamed for this ultimately, they’re in charge. And I understand the filibuster rule. Frankly, I would do away with the filibuster if I were John Thune, and I would pass the C.R. today. I think that’s their best move. And I would be ready with a health care reform bill in the next two weeks.

Scot Ross:
I mean, yeah, I think — Bill’s right. You know, the Republicans are in charge of things and the Republicans own this. But again, let’s see what’s you know, again, back to my point too: centralization of government. On Friday, we started to see illegal firings of union and nonunion employees in federal government. Those employees will be replaced by Trump partisans. And again, remember all this — a part of this is about — it’s taken the ability of the House to vote to release the Epstein files. They’re one vote short. You know, Johnson won’t appoint, you know, won’t sit a congressperson who won a special election so that that deciding vote will make this happen. So again, it’s all about this — it’s about protecting dear leader and it’s about consolidating power.

Frederica Freyberg:
We need to leave it there. Scot Ross, Bill McCoshen, thank you very much.

Scot Ross:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
Plans are spinning into motion for a large wind turbine project, the first of its size to be approved since 2011 by the state Public Service Commission. The Badger Hollow Wind Project, with 19 turbines, will complement the state’s largest solar project by the same name in Iowa County. The PSC at the same time approved a solar project in Whitewater. This as the federal government cuts $7.5 billion from green energy projects in several states recently, not including Wisconsin yet. Against that backdrop, renewable energy advocates consider the latest approvals in Wisconsin a major win. We spoke earlier with Chelsea Chandler from Clean Wisconsin for more. How big of a win are these PSC approvals for clean energy in Wisconsin?

Chelsea Chandler:
Yeah, it’s really notable that Badger Hollow is the first wind project to be approved in over 14 years. That’s really significant. We know that we need a lot more wind energy, solar energy to meet our energy needs and to do so in a clean way. Solar and wind are the cheapest forms of electricity, so it’s a really great win for people’s pocketbooks, for our electricity bills. And these also really represent huge opportunities for rural communities in terms of the economics and the money that is flowing into the host communities, from the farmers who signed leases to host these, where they get this long term, stable, high income, which is helping them kind of weather these ups and downs with tariff wars and everything like that in commodity crops right now. And it’s a big win for communities too, who get annual payments for hosting these projects. And so they can use that money to do things like fix roads or lower taxes or just whatever the local leaders deem is the highest and best use. So it’s great.

Frederica Freyberg:
So the 19 turbines at the Badger Hollow project approved, how much energy does that produce?

Chelsea Chandler:
It’s enough to power tens of thousands of Wisconsin homes. Wind energy is very efficient. One minute of a wind turbine spinning can power a Wisconsin home for an entire day. So we’re generating huge amounts of energy from those turbines.

Frederica Freyberg:
How does wind work with solar? Is that a complimentary kind of mix?

Chelsea Chandler:
Very much so. Increasingly we’re seeing projects be proposed along with storage like batteries. And so that can also help store when there’s a lot of wind or, you know, a really sunny day store that energy away for some of those times where we’ve got less of those resources. They work well seasonally together as well. So there’s less sun in the winter, although the panels themselves are very efficient in cold temperatures, but wind is actually more productive in the winter too, because the colder air is denser and it helps generate more electricity. So they really do pair well together.

Frederica Freyberg:
We just did an interview about the amount of energy new data centers are going to require. How will this portfolio of clean energy help boost that capacity?

Chelsea Chandler:
You know, any additional electricity that’s coming online is going to be helpful. But these data centers are really representing a massive, massive energy demand. It’s kind of hard to wrap our minds around them, frankly. Clean Wisconsin just did an analysis that showed that just for a couple of data centers that did report their energy use, they would use as much energy or more energy than all of the homes in Wisconsin combined. So it’s really staggering. We’re haven’t been seeing renewables powering these data centers yet. What we’re seeing is more gas plants being proposed. That’s what happened when WE Energies territory, a couple of gas plants were approved to support the Microsoft Data Center. We’re seeing a renewed interest in nuclear. I will say there’s a misalignment in the timeline of when we have this energy demand from the data centers and how long it takes to build those projects. Solar and wind are actually the fastest. They take maybe 1 or 2 years to build. Gas is more like five, and nuclear, you’re looking at a decade or more. So it’s, it’s a really tough proposition but, you know, every bit counts.

Frederica Freyberg:
Chelsea Chandler, Clean Wisconsin, thanks very much.

Chelsea Chandler:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSWisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.