Announcer:
The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Donald Trump:
The Golden Age of America has officially begun.

Frederica Freyberg:
From immigration to the federal funding freeze, executive orders from the White House unleash disarray in every direction.
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Wisconsin lawmakers respond to orders out of Washington and from a victim services agency to a tribal nation, we hear the local impact of any federal funding freeze. And finally, how one man’s experience drives his mission for better prison conditions. It’s “Here & Now” for January 31.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
As Immigration and Customs Enforcement or ICE agents sweep the nation, making thousands of arrests in what President Donald Trump promises to be the largest deportation operation in U.S. history. Communities, including here in Wisconsin, are on edge. A state representative whose district in Milwaukee represents the largest Hispanic population in Wisconsin has introduced a bill to prevent state or local police from helping to detain people in churches, schools, hospitals and publicly owned buildings solely on the basis that they are alleged to not be legally present in the U.S. We’re joined by Democratic Representative Sylvia Ortiz-Velez, and thanks very much for being here.

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
Thank you for having me here today.

Frederica Freyberg:
How on edge are people in your community in the midst of these ICE sweeps?

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
I’ve never seen anything like it. People are scared about whether or not they’re going to come home from work and be able to pick up their kids. People are scared if they’re going to be swept up in raids, even regular citizens. And the reason we’re scared is because of the past history in this nation. When mass deportations have happened, and also because some of the directives, that extreme directives that are coming out of Washington, D.C.

Frederica Freyberg:
Would state legislation supersede things like ICE directives?

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
Well, the way it works is they, they can certainly perform their legal duties, but the state is not required to help them in that. And I think that’s important to understand. As far as I know right now, there has not been any funding coming from the feds. And right now, our state is — all states are possibly facing cuts from Congress. And in these uncertain times, it’s not very wise for us to spend money when we legally don’t have to, because we don’t know what we’re going to have.

Frederica Freyberg:
Because your bill would also prohibit the use of state taxpayer dollars from aiding in the deportation of immigrants.

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
Yeah. And that would only, again, it only applies when there’s no judicial warrant. So certainly if they have a judicial warrant, they have a criminal record, we definitely want to make sure our communities are safe. But what we’re afraid of is violating — people’s rights being violated. We’re afraid that they’re going to take people who pose no public threat, and we’re afraid they’re going to take U.S. citizens.

Frederica Freyberg:
And so if someone is at their place of work or on the street or in their car, and they are approached by ICE agents, is it your recommendation that they ask to see a judicial warrant?

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
Absolutely. It is the law that I know it to be for more than a couple hundred years. Everyone has the right, regardless if it’s a state actor or a local, county, city, or federal actor, to be protected against illegal searches and seizures.

Frederica Freyberg:
How confusing are the enforcements for people who are in the U.S. under all kinds of different methods, you know, like temporary protected status or awaiting an immigration hearing?

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
It’s really complex because things are changing every day. Some people who felt they were pretty safe in their immigration status, people who already have a legal path, have had a legal pathway, feel that that could be at jeopardy. So there’s a lot of fear as well for people who are permanent residents, people who have legal statuses, TPS statuses. They’re changing every day. They’re being removed. And people thought they were safe. So there’s a lot of unknowns and things are changing all the time. And quite frankly, it’s causing quite a bit of chaos. I think what Wisconsin needs to focus on is Wisconsin, and we need to take care of Wisconsinites. I don’t believe we should allow the federal government to come in and violate our state constitution. I expect them to follow the law. And not do any illegal searches and seizures. And quite frankly, it’s a slippery slope. You allow them to do seizures, illegal searches and seizures here. You know, where else does that go?

Frederica Freyberg:
And so literally in where you live, there are people who are not leaving their homes, not going to school?

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
So I was at an event yesterday in my community, and there were — I noticed there were a lot of people there that would normally have been there, and they weren’t. And it’s unfortunate because people are staying at home. People are scared that they’re not going to come back home. There are people who are afraid that they’re going to lose their homes because, you know, we literally created a way for people to buy homes that were undocumented. And they have made investments. But more importantly, we’re hoping that people get prepared so that they have a way for someone to pick up their kids at school. I guess the worst story I’ve heard so far is a 13-year-old girl, a citizen in my district. She’s been dealing with cancer for the last five years, since the age of eight, and both of her parents are undocumented. Her mother takes care of her every single day because she needs medical attention all the time. Her father works, and there might be a time that they’re going to have to decide whether or not they leave their daughter here, and she passes away without her parents, or if they take her to Mexico and she doesn’t get the treatment she needs. But at least they’ll — she’ll be able to die there with her parents surrounding her.

Frederica Freyberg:
Representative Sylvia Ortiz-Velez, thanks very much.

Sylvia Ortiz-Velez:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
It has been a head spinning week at the national level and here at home. Wisconsin smacked with the potential loss of more than $28 billion in federal grants and loans following a Trump administration pause on trillions of U.S. funding. A federal judge temporarily blocked the freeze, and quickly thereafter, the administration rescinded most of it. But for grant and loan recipients, everything from Meals on Wheels to Head Start to farm and housing programs, the chaotic week has left uncertainty and anxiety in its wake. The Women’s Community in Wausau reports that federal grant dollars make up about 20% of that agency’s total budget. Executive Director Jane Graham Jennings joins us for a firsthand look at what those grants deliver. And thanks very much for being here.

Jane Graham Jennings:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
So at this hour, is it still confusing about what’s happening with the federal grants freeze?

Jane Graham Jennings:
It is confusing. So our federal funds come through state organizations. So the state filters those funds, and when the initial freeze came out, even our state administrators weren’t sure of what was happening. So then when it was rescinded, we still don’t know. And we haven’t heard from our state administrators whether there is an actual freeze or not. So basically, we’re just continuing with business as usual. Because, you know, that’s just kind of where we are. But we’re still very unclear about what that means for our future.

Frederica Freyberg:
Does your agency have access to those funds?

Jane Graham Jennings:
We do it on a reimbursement so that’s the way the grants operate. So we have to send in the reports to the state administrators, and then they reimburse. So we do that every month. So we don’t have direct access until after we have put our reports in.

Frederica Freyberg:
Okay. And so you say that it is about 20% of your total budget. What amount is that?

Jane Graham Jennings:
So we did some calculations and the percentage would be about $26,000 a month for our agency.

Frederica Freyberg:
What are the services that your agency provides and what would happen to those services without that money?

Jane Graham Jennings:
The most — what we feel the most devastating impact, one of the grants that we provide is called Domestic Violence Housing First. And it’s a pilot project that gives us the ability to actually pay rent for survivors of abuse who are able to get out of an unsafe environment and maintain a safe environment because we can pay their rent for up to a year. So we actually have someone in that program right now that we have promised a year of her rent that we’re not sure we can now follow through with. We have several other people that we are assisting with rent for three and six months, and we’re not sure we can follow through with those promises. So that’s the most difficult part because they are relying on that to be able to maintain a safe home. So they are back in a situation that they have to choose between homelessness or returning to a violent home. So that is the particular funds we’re most concerned about. And then for our staffing, it would mean we would have to end our abuse in later life program. So we have advocates that work specifically with victims 60 and older. And those funds would mean we wouldn’t be able to support those advocates in our sexual assault program. We have two advocates that are funded by federal dollars that we would have to cut our sexual assault services in half. And then in our shelter program, we would have to reconfigure how we do that, because it would eliminate funding for a number of our weekend and after-hours advocates. So we’d have to figure out how we could maintain our shelter services.

Frederica Freyberg:
Big, big impacts there for you locally. Now, the aim of the freeze was to ferret out wasteful spending. What would you say to people who might think your agency or others shouldn’t get this?

Jane Graham Jennings:
That we shouldn’t get the funding?

Frederica Freyberg:
Yeah.

Jane Graham Jennings:
I always say, if you want to know how to really pay attention to your dollars, go talk to a nonprofit agency. Nonprofits, you know, we’re kind of given a business plan that no actual business would ever think to utilize. We are given the idea that you have to do all of these things with nothing. And so we know how to squeeze to the last penny, to be as efficient and use every dollar in the most responsible way. So I would say when you’re getting federal funds to a nonprofit organization, that’s not wasteful spending. People are on the ground helping other humans in a way that they utilize every cent, because we have to report several reports on every penny that we spend. So we have to turn in all of our reimbursement forms. We have to prove that we are using the funds as we said we would, and we have to back all of that up with documentation. So it is certainly not wasteful spending. It is being used to help people.

Frederica Freyberg:
Jane Graham Jennings, thanks very much and thanks for the work you do.

Jane Graham Jennings:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
The 11 tribal nations in Wisconsin have dozens of federal grant programs, including nearly $3 billion for tribal health, $14 million for broadband, and more than $10 million connected to tribal colleges. Just how vulnerable is this funding, and how might treaty rights be violated, not to mention the services provided, if it gets wiped away? We turn to Tehassi Hill, chairman of the Oneida Nation, for his take. And chairman, thanks very much for being here.

Tehassi Hill:
Yes, thank you for the invitation.

Frederica Freyberg:
For the Onedia, what would be potential impacts of any federal funding freeze?

Tehassi Hill:
Yeah, it could be — it could be quite large, depending on how they’re rolled out and the particulars. So at Oneida, a very large portion of our budget actually comes from federal and state grants. So if it’s just wiped clear, that would be very detrimental to our community and for [?] levels and for families and all that we take care of here in Oneida.

Frederica Freyberg:
When you got word that there was this pause or freeze on these grant and loan programs, what was your reaction?

Tehassi Hill:
Well, you know, at first it was well, it’s — let’s hope it’s not as bad as it’s being made out to be. Obviously, as it comes to tribal nations and how we’re affected by the federal dollar and government shutdowns and freezes like this, this is a little bit different per se, just depending on what those lines that are frozen and how they impact to the nation. And so, you know, it’s definitely okay, let’s, let’s see what happens with this. How these different departments are handling this presidential order and see what exactly those effects are on us.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about the piece that are binding commitments in sovereign tribal nations based on treaty and trust obligations from land exchanged hundreds of years ago?

Tehassi Hill:
Yeah, that’s always the worry. You know, obviously tribal nations have ceded, you know, upwards of 2 billion acres of land to the birth of the United States. And in exchange for that land was, you know, promises that we battle every day to hold the United States accountable to the promises they made to our ancestors for that transaction. And so that’s a, that’s an everyday battle, no matter who the president is or who’s in Congress. Tribes stand up together to fight, fight those battles and do that education where necessary to be able to bring to light those issues when it comes to funding for tribal nations.

Frederica Freyberg:
Does this move seem somehow different or setting an alarming precedent in your mind?

Tehassi Hill:
I think it is alarming to a certain extent. Just because a lot of the presidential orders are pretty broad and so they’re not specific enough for us to be able to analyze and be like, okay, this is how it’s going to affect us, because a lot of it is just left up to the discretion of either political appointees or long term employees who don’t necessarily have the authority to make the decisions that they normally would during these transition periods. So it’s really, you know, kind of like a wait and see at this point how those decisions are made and they trickle down through the system to have the effect on tribal nations.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to executive orders coming out of Washington, we’ve seen reported that some tribal members have been detained in immigration sweeps. Is that something that you’re aware of in the Oneida or across the state?

Tehassi Hill:
I haven’t been able to verify any Oneida tribal members being detained or even checked at this point. I know another tribe in the state that they had some of their tribal members checked, but not detained, just verifying their identification and let, you know, continue on their way to where they were heading. But for us, we haven’t had any verified accounts of anyone actually being detained.

Frederica Freyberg:
Is it perversely in question that all Native Americans born in the U.S. are citizens as to this birthright citizen issue?

Tehassi Hill:
Yeah. You know, the Snyder Act passed in 1924, so it’s 100-year-old law. And so I don’t think that’s really in question. It would obviously take an act of Congress to reverse that decision, or the Supreme Court to change these types of things. And so those are kind of long processes that would probably see legal battle and the entire way, you know, along the way, it’s processed to the Supreme Court. And so I think that’s just a long-standing law that I don’t think is in any question right now. But it is in the backs of some people’s minds as a threat to tribal sovereignty. But I think at this point, it’s a long ways off.

Frederica Freyberg:
That’s good news. Chairman Tehassi Hill, thanks very much.

Tehassi Hill:
All right. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
In other news, with more than 23,000 people housed in Wisconsin’s 36 adult prisons, there is an ongoing effort by people formerly incarcerated and those who run prisons to make conditions better. The Department of Corrections tells us they’re working with a national consultant to examine its policies. Tonight, Murv Seymour shows us how a Madison man travels the state educating people about his time in prison.

Chanters:
Use parole and compassion.

Murv Seymour:
If it’s the 23rd of the month, you’ll find a small group quietly advocating.

Talib Akbar:
Stop, stop, stop the torture.

Murv Seymour:
One phrase at a time, on the steps of the state Capitol and at times, inside speaking at hearings and lobbying legislators.

Talib Akbar:
No more funds for solitary confinement.

Murv Seymour:
Talib Akbar, with the statewide, faith-based group WISDOM, is one of those people.

Talib Akbar:
No money for torture.

Murv Seymour:
The message here is clear, and they’re only allowed 30 minutes to deliver it.

Talib Akbar:
30 minutes. You can do a lot visually, mentally, physically. Use parole and compassionate release.

Murv Seymour:
To this small group, 23 isn’t just another number. For them, it’s symbolic and personal.

Talib Akbar:
Overall goal is to make people aware that people are locked down 23 hours a day. We’ve chosen this day to represent these people, to stand up for them.

Murv Seymour:
Out of 17 years of incarceration

Talib Akbar:
I went in for assault.

Murv Seymour:
Talib Akbar estimates three and a half to four of it was spent alone and isolated in a cell.

Talib Akbar:
I spent 10 stints in solitary confinement, anywhere from 360 days to 60 days. I never would get out of here in less than 30 days. They call it the hole. They call it solitary confinement. They call it disciplinary separation. Overall, it’s all of the above.

Murv Seymour:
You’re listening to sounds captured from inside an actual disciplinary wing of a prison.

Talib Akbar:
The dimensions of the space here is like ten feet by six. They’ll place you in this and you have no other clothes on.

Murv Seymour:
Ten years since his release, Talib remembers this space well.

Talib Akbar:
These are the clothes that the prison guards wear. And you get soft bottomed shoes because they would consider this to be a weapon. You might be able to see the clock where you are from the outside, but you have no clock in here. The light stays on 24-7. I’ve seen them strap them down. Take off all their clothes and just leave them there. You know, some wild out. They defecate on themselves right there on the table. You know that’s wrong.

Murv Seymour:
A concrete block bed and two-inch mattress and blanket. A cold concrete floor and walls.

Talib Akbar:
And it stays cold in here because of the conditions of the bricks but this is not the place to punish a person.

Murv Seymour:
Talib tells his story of incarceration and his efforts to change how people are punished from the foot of a bed inside, not a real prison cell.

Talib Akbar:
This is an exact replica pretty much.

Murv Seymour:
Instead, it’s a replica of one he built after his release from Waupun Correctional Institution.

Talib Akbar:
It’s an educational experience for anyone that hasn’t been in a solitary confinement cell.

Murv Seymour:
Drawing from memory, using a plain piece of paper, Talib hand-sketched every detail and dimension of a solitary prison cell. He took the drawing to Edgewood College in Madison…

Talib Akbar:
They’re building a cell.

Murv Seymour:
… where students helped him build it.

Talib Akbar:
There’s a whole entire list of things right there that can land you in solitary confinement. It can be disobeying an order, disrespect, not obeying the order. The purpose of the exhibit, you know, to make people aware of solitary confinement. What it’s like? You know, this is the box. You know what I mean? This is the hole. You know, it’s mentally affecting people, not only the person who’s in it, but their family also. This is an unwanted place for any human being. People who are mentally ill should not be placed in solitary confinement, because that’s a condition that solitary confinement can’t solve. There are other soft ways to discipline a person. You can take some of the privileges that they have. Lean it up against there, and see if we can put it far back. No, no, no, no.

Murv Seymour:
A man on a mission, Talib travels Wisconsin and beyond, educating anyone who will listen about the impact of solitary confinement.

Talib Akbar:
We’re moving this part right here.

Murv Seymour:
On this day at The Crossing Ministries church that sits in the heart of the University of Wisconsin campus in Madison.

Talib Akbar:
Okay. One, two, three.

Murv Seymour:
Talib and a few friends pieced the cell together like a jigsaw puzzle.

Talib Akbar:
My heart is just in this. People can understand where I’m coming from when they see this project.

Murv Seymour:
Once erected, the project will sit here for months to give anyone who walks in off the street a tiny taste of what it’s like to be confined in a space like this.

Ayman Kalada:
Part of it, it’s like, oh, it’s really peaceful.

Murv Seymour:
Ayman Kalada is torn.

Ayman Kalada:
And the other part of it is like, is it peaceful or is it leaning more towards the torture, like torture level? You know what I mean? I feel like it can be a mixture of both. We’re made to like, interact with other humans and be around other people and be strong enough to be able to share ideas and be vulnerable and create things.

Cece Babat:
That it was a, like, visceral experience being in there. Something that really stuck out to me was just the clothing items on the bed.

Murv Seymour:
Student Cece Babat plans to work in social services once she graduates.

Cece Babat:
You really can just feel, like, the anxiety within the tight space.

Murv Seymour:
With support from Pastor Michael Burch at The Crossing Ministries, she advocated for this exhibit to be brought here. She says its presence has her thinking about the future of punishment.

Cece Babat:
It definitely makes me think that we need to look into other alternatives. If we are able to repose our criminal justice system as rehabilitative, rather than punitive, that might then open conversations within the communities for just supporting those who are impacted by our criminal justice system and incarceration.

Murv Seymour:
A spokesperson for the Wisconsin Department of Corrections tells us most people in state prisons have full privileges for recreation and programing. There is a designation called disciplinary separation for conduct violations. DOC says it is not solitary confinement, and inmates there have access to visits, recreation, therapy and programing and their cells have windows. No matter what you call it.

Talib Akbar:
Solitary confinement is a big deal in prison.

Murv Seymour:
Talib Akbar’s efforts don’t stop with his portable cell.

Talib Akbar:
It’s a moving billboard.

Murv Seymour:
Near Madison’s south side sits a nearly 30-year-old box truck

Talib Akbar:
And it had nothing in it.

Murv Seymour:
that he has transformed and repurposed.

Talib Akbar:
But it runs like a Singer sewing machine.

Murv Seymour:
This old delivery truck now delivers his message and makes his mobile exhibit even more mobile.

Talib Akbar:
It is the solitary condition or confinement cell or replica cell of solitary confinement that’s been built in a truck. Recently I went to Detroit, which is 433 miles. It’s made out of wood, but it’s to emulate what is in the actual cell, which is steel, and that camera stays on 24/7 so they can watch you 24/7 and give you directions from the intercom. People see that door, which is — most solitary confinement cell doors are red and it grabs their attention.

Murv Seymour:
Getting people’s attention…

Talib Akbar:
We’ve had dignitaries come in here just to spend a couple of hours.

Murv Seymour:
… and changing the future of punishment.

Talib Akbar:
They can’t do it and then they write about it.

Murv Seymour:
That’s the goal of showcasing this roaming prison cell.

Talib Akbar:
It’s a battle that’s going to take a long time. Stop, stop, stop the torture. I’m committed to this. It’s my lifelong journey. It’s like building a cathedral. One brick at a time.

Murv Seymour:
Reporting from Madison for “Here & Now,” I’m Murv Seymour.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to the current state in Wisconsin prisons, there is now a third-party review in progress brought on following the deaths of five inmates at Waupun Correctional Institution from 2023 to 2024. Expert consultants will evaluate everything from restrictive housing and correctional practices to health programs and staffing. A report and recommendations are expected later this year.
For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSWisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.