To Dine For with Kate Sullivan

(Majestic orchestral music) KATE SULLIVAN: In this tiny New England town, everyone is a someone, including one of the most famous documentary filmmakers of our time.

KATE: Ken, how are ya?

KATE: The town is Walpole, New Hampshire, and the filmmaker is Ken Burns.

Today, Ken is taking me to his favorite local bistro to eat what he loves: a dish named in his honor.

KEN BURNS: This is the place that I call home, where I put my head, where I just feel safe.

KATE: We learn about his inspiration, his arduous process, and what motivates him to keep going after five decades of filmmaking.

KEN: I'm 70 years old, I'm still doing what I did when I was 25, which is get super exciting about make...trying to make something better, trying to make something better.

KATE: Enthusiasm.

KEN: With people that I love.

KATE: Ken's documentaries span the landscape of American history, from our nation's tragedies to its triumphs, connecting us to our shared human experience.

KEN: And in my editing room, we have a neon sign in lowercase cursive that says, "it's complicated."

KATE: And then, we are dialing into the lessons of 50 plus years of filmmaking.

Lessons that for Ken are very personal and took a lifetime to learn.

KEN: You wake the dead.

You make Abraham Lincoln and Jackie Robinson come alive.

Who do you think you're really trying to wake up?

KATE: What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food, and an amazing conversation.

My name is Kate Sullivan, and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers, visionaries, artists; those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them, and their American dream.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: At American National, we honor the "do"-ers and the dreamers: the people who get things done and keep the world moving.

Our local agents are honored to serve your community because it's their community too.

American National.

KATE: Hi everyone.

Today, I am in Walpole, New Hampshire, a tiny town in the southwest part of the state.

I'm eating at a local favorite, Burdick's, and meeting a true visionary in the world of documentary filmmaking.

I can't wait for you to meet...Ken Burns.

KATE: Ken, how are ya?

KEN BURNS: Hi.

Good to see you.

KATE: It's so nice to meet you.

KEN: It's my pleasure.

Thank you.

Welcome to Walpole.

KATE: Thank you for doing this.

KEN: It's so great.

Look, look at it.

KATE: Welcome to Walpole, New Hampshire.

The Restaurant at Burdick's has been at the heart of this historic New England town for more than 20 years, offering up eclectic French fare in a small town setting, with a focus on seasonal and locally sourced ingredients.

Classic dishes are transformed here... Pan-seared scallops... braised rabbit with rabe and potatoes... duck confit... All prepared with the local community in mind.

WESLEY BABB: The idea was to create a restaurant in a community that supports the restaurant, whether it's the consumers or it's the artisans who create the cheeses and the farmers who deliver our local produce to us.

When I walk out in the dining room, at any given point, I'll recognize four or five different people.

So, we have like the small town demographic that comes to eat here, but we also have people from away who return every year.

KATE: Chef Wesley Babb has worked at Burdick's for 18 years and says it's that co-mingling of city folk and longtime Walpole residents that makes this intimate community, so vibrant.

WESLEY: Walpole is the town where you could see horses walking up Main Street with a tractor behind them, and then a Bentley rolling down the street right behind them.

It's just a beautiful little town filled with all walks of life.

KATE: Farmers, artists, transplants, all are welcome here.

Filmmakers too.

First of all, I love the feel of this restaurant.

KEN: Yeah.

KATE: I love it.

KEN: It's so great.

KATE: I love it.

Yes, Ken Burns, arguably one of Burdick's most celebrated regulars, even has a dish named in his honor and it's one of the most popular dishes on the menu.

WESLEY: That salad wasn't, wasn't on the menu for years, but he would order it every day anyway.

He would order Bibb lettuce with Parmesan, avocado, and grilled salmon.

And he kept ordering it.

We had the stuff in the kitchen, then his intern started ordering it.

So eventually, we just put it on the menu because they were gonna order it anyway.

Like our customers would see people eating it and they'd be like, "What's that?"

I'd be like, "that's Ken's Salad."

It is one of our most popular dishes for sure.

KATE: You know, of all the restaurants that you could have chosen as your favorite.

For you, there was really only one restaurant you would choose.

KEN: There's only one restaurant.

I mean, I spend a lot of time in New York City and I've got a whole list of...of places.

KATE: That you love.

KEN: And you know, because I do multi-part things, you know, maybe if we ever do a part two that... KATE: Right, we could go to New York?

KEN: ...I can...I can go to New York and there's, I...I can think right away.

KATE: But why are we here?

Why are we at Burdick's?

KEN: We're here because this is my hometown of 44 years.

This is the place that I call home, where I've put my head, where I just feel safe and this is a restaurant that I helped bring into existence by giving a little bit of support to the chocolatier Larry Burdick, when he wanted to open this restaurant in September of 2001.

KATE: What is it about this place that you love so much?

KEN: I love how good the food is.

I love how good the people are.

I love how much it reflects the town, how much we needed it.

KATE: How did you end up in Walpole in the, the in the first place?

KEN: So, you know, I thought in New York that having become a documentary filmmaker, uh, strike one in American History, strike two on PBS, strike three was like, um, I had consigned myself to a life of anonymity and poverty.

(Kate laughs) you know, I was making a film on the Brooklyn Bridge.

I had it shot and I was in New York and I knew, I needed a real job.

And that if I got a real job, I was worried that I'd put the footage up on top of the refrigerator and I'd wake up and I would be 45 or 50 and I hadn't touched it.

So I moved up here where I knew I could live for practically nothing and edited the film.

KATE: And why did you stay here?

KEN: Because the work we do is labor intensive.

It requires a lot of concentration because it's labor intensive, it also takes a lot of time.

And I didn't want the distractions of the big city, but also the overhead of the big city.

So here, it's a family dynamic, it's a kind of a family business, and we work really, really hard.

It takes sometimes, a decade to complete a film, sometimes, half a decade or more like the Civil War or Jazz or Baseball or, or you know, whatever it might be.

That's a lot of work.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: And so, being able to concentrate every day and getting up and know at the end of the day when you put your head on the pillow that you've made a film better, there's nothing, there's no better feeling.

KATE: It was an intuitive strategic decision you made many, many years ago that's really paid off.

KEN: Oh, yeah.

It's, I mean, the vow of anonymity and poverty, not anonymous, not in a poverty stricken, but it's, you're... KATE: Your're definitely, not anonymous here at this restaurant (laughs).

KEN: Not here and anywhere in the United States.

Cause people watch the films and they're drawn to the emotional archeology that we've been trying to talk about.

Not just the dry dates and facts and events, but what is it about our story that we can all feel and we can also share?

Like, I make films about the United States: capital "U," capital "S" the U.S. KATE: Right.

KEN: But I make films about "us" and...and, and there's no "them."

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: So.

KATE: Yeah.

SERVER: Doing some green tea today, Ken?

KEN: Oh...yeah...please.

Can I have a pot of Jasmine green tea?

KATE: Ooh!

I would love, I would love some as well.

KEN: Jasmine, that's all I drink.

Water or green tea.

KATE: Excellent.

KEN: That's it.

KATE: And I believe we're getting the Ken salad, right?

KEN: Okay.

SERVER: You both doing Ken Salad?

KEN: Yeah.

SERVER: Okay.

KEN: We're gonna both gonna do cooked through.

SERVER: Perfect...do you wanna hear about specials, or do you have your heart set on it?

I know, I know... KEN: We have our heart set on the Ken Salad.

Thank you.

KATE: Ken's passion for filmmaking was ignited at an early age.

At 22, he started Florentine Films and quickly developed his own distinctive style: slow moving camera work, intercut with volumes of archival photos and footage that became known as "The Ken Burns Effect," accentuated by first-hand narration from popular actors, musicians, and historians.

But it all started with a simple gift.

KATE: I want you to take me back to when you first got that gift of that 8mm camera and you made your first documentary in Michigan.

KEN: In Michigan.

KATE: About a bridge, correct?

KEN: No, we made a film.

We were just sort of shooting.

We would do, we'd alternate... KATE: A factory.

KEN: Between making, uh, sort of dramatic films that never got finished.

KATE: Yes.

KEN: Or shooting a film on pollution.

And we filmed a factory and smoke stacks.

Nothing ever got done, but I'd already decided age 12, I was gonna be filmmaker.

KATE: And what...what, what sparked that?

KEN: My mom had been sick with cancer from when I was two to when I was nearly 12 and she died a few months before my 12th birthday.

And my dad, who had never cried while she was ill, didn't cry when she died, didn't cry at the impossibly sad funeral had a pretty tough curfew for my younger brother and me.

But he would forgive it, if there was a movie on TV that he wanted me to watch.

And I remember watching a movie with him and he started to cry and I went, "I get it."

Like, I was 12 by then.

And it, I just understood that it provided an emotional-- and I decided on the spot I'd be a filmmaker that meant a Hollywood filmmaker.

KATE: Wow.

KEN: Like John Ford.

Right or Alfred Hitchcock.

Right?

KATE: It was the ability of your father to have that emotional release with just him and the movie.

KEN: That seemed to be the only thing that did that for him.

KATE: Mmm.

KEN: It wasn't music, which for most of us is that way.

It was film.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: And I wanted to do that.

KATE: By the time Ken graduated from college, his focus had shifted to documentary filmmaking.

His very first film about the Brooklyn Bridge was nominated for an Oscar, an amazing feat for a first-time director.

But it wasn't easy to get off the ground or to get acclaimed historian David McCullough to be a part of it.

KEN: Oh...I can still remember lessons I learned from that, from him.

But it was a lot of chutzpah.

I looked about 12 years old.

I was selling people the Brooklyn Bridge.

I used to have two binders filled with rejection notices on my desk.

You know, just a reminder of the humility you have to have in this business because people would say, you know, "An hour about the Brooklyn Bridge."

I said, "yeah, I think I'm gonna have a hard time keeping it to an hour.

We go 10 minutes, five minutes.

You know, is that it?"

You know.

KATE: So...so, you're saying you had the concept for doing this documentary, but you...you, you didn't have a distribution platform.

Is that where the rejection letters are coming from?

KEN: Well...they're coming from underwriters.

I knew it was gonna be on PBS, but PBS wasn't funding it.

KATE: Yes.

KEN: I had to get grants from, you know, the National Endowment for the Humanities or the New York State Council for the Humanities from different private foundations from corporations.

And so, I was amassing that.

But in the course of trying to get these grants, I was rejected hundreds of times.

And it was, you know, I...I think there must be much more talented filmmakers than me, but don't have the patience.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: Right?

KATE: You stuck with it.

KEN: And I just, I stuck with it and a lot of it had to do with moving here.

KATE: Since the move to Walpole, Ken and his team have created some of the most memorable documentaries of our time.

The sheer volume, awe-inspiring; documentaries on American icons like Jackie Robinson, Muhammad Ali, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Lewis and Clark, Mark Twain, the Roosevelts, the list goes on and on, and miniseries on topics uniquely American: the Vietnam War, jazz, baseball, the National Parks, country music, The U.S. and the Holocaust.

Thirty-five productions in all with several more in the pipeline.

KATE: I'm so curious, when you are first contemplating a subject matter, do you go with your gut or do you follow your passion?

Or what is your process?

KEN: Just gut.

Just gut.

You know...I mean...it's, you just have a lot of ideas and they're not a dime a dozen.

They're meaningful, but it's like friends, you know, there are people that are acquaintances-- and they're people that you love.

KATE: Yes.

KEN: And will be friends with.

KATE: Yes.

KEN: So somehow a topic has to go drop down from the head to the heart.

KATE: Yes.

KEN: And then you go, or the gut, and then you say "Yes."

KATE: Yes.

KEN: And it's a wholehearted Yes.

And it comes with its own terror... KATE: Right.

KEN: ...because sometimes you're...I mean...I, I've been always biting off more than I could chew.

You know, I first did one film, then I starved in between and did a second film and kind of starved.

KATE: What kept you going, if you're starving?

KEN: Cause I love it.

Cause I love this work and I would do it for nothing.

KATE: And why?

KEN: Because I love...I...I love trying to figure out a story.

And I think...you know, a psychologist...my, my late father-in-law said an interesting thing.

When my mother died on April 28th, 1965, I could...I could see the date coming up April 28th.

It was a day or two away.

And then, I was always in my rear view mirror.

And I went to him and I said, "I seem to be keeping my, I...I mean, I seem to not to be able to remember the date."

And he says, "Of course, you're keeping her alive.

This is the wishful thinking of any 11-year-old.

KATE: Right.

KEN: But what do you think you do for a living?"

And I said, "what?"

And this is like 12 years into making films... KATE: Yeah.

KEN: And he goes, "You wake the dead.

You make Abraham Lincoln and Jackie Robinson come alive.

Who do you think you're really trying to wake up?"

So, the passion is in the way trying to have a conversation with the past, which is a collective sharing with my fellow Americans and anybody else who's curious about who we are.

But it's also an intimate conversation between me and my mom.

KATE: Wow.

That's really powerful.

That is really powerful.

A ocumentary is a point of view, but it's also dealing in facts and talk to me about the tension you see... KEN: Yeah.

KATE: ...as your own unique point of view and also getting it right.

KEN: Documentary is an honorable tradition of, of advocating for certain things.

We don't do that.

KATE: Mm-Hmm.

KEN: We...we have a point of view, but we're...we're suppressing it.

We're not saying this is what you should believe... KATE: Thank you.

KEN: ...which is say what inconvenient truth about global warming is...they're saying, you should know this.

Right.

Thank you.

SERVER: Well done.

KATE: Well done, well done!

(Laughs) KEN: Well done, Brandy.

KATE: Well done.

Thank you.

KEN: Thank you.

To me, the key ingredient is the Parmesan because of the saltiness and when it came together, I went, "Yes!"

And I haven't really altered it since.

KATE: It's absolutely delicious.

I love avocado and I love salmon.

So, you had me there.

KATE: As we dig into the light and healthy Ken Salad, a delicious mix of bibb lettuce, tender salmon, and sliced avocado topped with shaved Parmesan in a light vinaigrette.

It is the perfect time to talk about the lighter moments in Ken's career where he takes the work seriously, but never himself.

KATE: I heard you said that you don't mind if people make fun of it or mockumentaries.

KEN: Oh, my God.

KATE: You like that.

KEN: If, every late night show ever has made fun of my movies and...uh...and had me there and helped me be complicit in making fun.

I've been on "The Simpsons" four or five times and they're really mocking me.

And the first time I went, "I'm insulted not by the making fun of me, but you didn't use my voice."

(Kate laughs) They said, "Well, we were scared to."

I said, "I'll do anything."

You know, so I'm now the voice of me when they continue to mock the style, they're mocking something that everybody knows.

So, "Parks and Recreation" or "The Office" or whatever, they've all spoofed it in some way.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: Or another, and that's fine.

And I...I'll be a willing accomplice to that spoofing cause the worst thing, you can do is take yourself too seriously.

(chuckles) KATE: Of all the many documentaries Ken and his team have tackled, one in particular has impacted Ken and the country like no other.

The 1990 Emmy Award-winning Civil War series, one of the highest rated miniseries in PBS history, its influence still resonating in classrooms around the country today.

KATE: How have you changed when you do a documentary or which of all the documentaries you've done has affected you the most?

KEN: It's without a doubt, the Civil War has been the biggest thing ever.

KATE: And why?

KEN: Because of the response was just so amazing.

You get invited to the White House, you get...you know, stuff happened... KATE: Right.

KEN: ...out of that.

And it just stopped the, I mean, they ran out of blank VHS tapes in Washington, DC.

T...today isn't a school day in America...but if it was, we think maybe a thousand classrooms are showing a part of the Civil War today.

KATE: Wow.

KEN: Every day.

KATE: When you think of the totality of your work and you think of what you want to accomplish, is there a subject matter that isn't on the docket that you absolutely... KEN: Yeah.

KATE: would like to get on the docket?

KEN: I about, I wanna do a film about Martin Luther King, like nobody's business.

I am the person, but it's quite hard.

The family has hereto for been kind of difficult about giving access.

KATE: Okay.

KEN: And the movie "Selma," feature film... KATE: Mm-Hmm.

KEN: ...couldn't quote a single word of his.

KATE: Mmm...really.

KEN: And he copyrighted his speeches and, and it's just been difficult.

And I'll do it.

I promise, I will get this done.

But I that's, that's the one I love.

He's one of the most important Americans who's ever lived.

His story is super complicated and super interesting and super inspirational, and we need that today.

And he reminds us of the best part of ourselves, what Abraham Lincoln called the "Better Angels."

And...and that's an important thing to remember, particularly in times when there's too much "us" versus "them," rather than realizing in the whole world and, but particularly in America, there's no them... KATE: Yeah.

KEN: ...there is only "us" period...full stop.

KATE: Yeah.

There seems to be no stopping Ken Burns.

Martin Luther King is just one of several projects on his radar.

Over the next several years, documentaries about the significance of the American Buffalo, the American Revolution and the life of Leonardo da Vinci are all slated to air on PBS, his broadcast home since the start of his career.

And that's the way he likes it.

KATE: "Us" KEN: "Us."

KATE: That's...that...that seems to be a guiding light of yours.

KEN: Oh, yeah.

And it's...and that's what it is.

I have...you know, I live in a political state and I put out, you know...signs in my yard.

It's important.

But the one sign that stays up there year after year, through the winter, through the summer, through the spring and the fall, it says "Love Multiplies."

KATE: In 2014, Ken learned more about his own sense of belonging in this country on an episode of Henry Lewis Gates' program, "Finding Your Roots" when a little bit of his own history was revealed to him, Ken learned he was related to famous Scottish poet Robert Burns, as well as a slave holder from the deep South.

KEN: There was, on my mother's side, a slave owner; there were on my mother's side, um, also Patriots.

KATE: Mm-Hmm.

KEN: Uh, and Northerners and Southerners.

So, I am the embodiment of all of our contradictions.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: And...um, the idea that we would soft sell our history.

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: That we would not tell the complicated parts.

KATE: Right.

KEN: Is just an anathema to who we are.

KATE: Especially over the past, uh, five years, there's been a lot the, we never heard the term "fake news" uh, before five years ago.

And so it, I'm sure you have, uh, the stand on, on "fake news" versus real news.

KEN: So, Mark Twain is supposed to have said, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes."

If he did, it's perfect because you see rhymes all the time.

There was fake news during the Revolution.

They didn't call it fake news.

KATE: Right.

KEN: There was fake news in the 1830s.

There was fake news during the Civil War.

There was fake news all the time, propaganda happens, people manipulating things.

And it is only become a cudgel of our partisanship that we somehow think...ah, we must be..you know...unique.

There are times in which the politics of the United States are much rougher.

KATE: But do you see your responsibility as a filmmaker to try the best you can to tell it like it is... even greater; given the current landscape?

KEN: Exactly.

And so, what happens is, when I finish a film, I can have a stump speech promoting it, which is like, what if I told you I'd been working for 10 years about a film about this, this...this...and this, and all of them are happening right now.

And you think...oh, you're talking about the present moment.

Everybody's nodding.

I said, this is about prohibition, this is about Vietnam.

KEN: This is about the Shakers.

KATE: Right.

Right.

This is about... KEN: You know, KATE: Right.

KEN: And you go, what?

KATE: Yeah.

KEN: How can that possibly be?

KATE: Right.

Taking a mirror and, and holding it up and showing the parallels.

KEN: And it's not that we consciously do that.

KATE: Right.

KEN: It's hard enough to tell a good story about something in the past... KATE: Yes.

KEN: ...with old photographs or no photographs.

KATE: Right.

KEN: You're not sitting there saying, oh, and this is so very much like today.

KATE: Right.

KEN: When the film is over, you go...it's still rhyming.

KATE: Okay.

When people see a documentary and they know it's a Ken Burns documentary, what, what is your unique stamp on a documentary?

What do you want it to be?

KEN: Well, you know, it's funny, there's lots of levels to that answer.

KATE: Right.

KEN: I mean, Steve Jobs and, and all iMovie programs and we became friends over this has a thing called "The Ken Burns Effect."

KATE: Right.

KEN: That allows you to pan and zoom.

All of that is in service of what I call emotional archeology.

A lot of people, history is boring because it's just the recitation of dry dates, facts, and events.

KATE: Yeah...data.

KEN: We have those, but we also feel that the glue is an emotional archeology.

Something that reminds you that everybody's the same, that we are not, we have a terrific arrogance in the present over those in the past because we're alive and they're not.

So, somehow we must know more.

We don't.

KATE: Ah.

KEN: We don't and so removing that arrogance and revealing the humanity and the complexity of people, and that's an important thing.

You're not looking for perfection.

You're looking to see who the person is and how they balance out the war in themselves.

And if you've chosen a bad path, that's pretty clear.

If you're struggling to do a good path, that's also clear.

KATE: Over time, Ken has built a close-knit team of directors, writers, producers, researchers, and editors, including family members to collaborate on multiple projects at a time, a painstaking process that can take years and sometimes decades from concept to completion.

KATE: What is the timeframe from beginning to end, typically of a documentary?

And how big is the team taking a look at every frame and making sure there is that complexity?

KEN: The credits for Vietnam, 18 hours long, baseball, 18 and a half hours long, has hundreds of people, but it's really handmade by about 16 or 17 or 18 people.

KATE: Okay.

KEN: It's very intimate, very, very handmade.

And in my editing room, we have a neon sign in lower case cursive that says, "it's complicated" cause it's always complicated.

KATE: Right.

KEN: The greatest of people, Abraham Lincoln, have flaws.

The worst of people have strength.

Wynton Marsalis has said to me in "Jazz" once, this amazing thing.

And I thought it was like, you know, the heavens opened up and the ray of light being, he said, "Sometimes, the thing and the opposite of a thing are true at the same time."

And if you can hold that... KATE: Yes.

KEN: ...then you know how to tell a story.

You also know how to love another person.

You also know how to raise a child.

You also know how to make a good meal.

You...you...you can be a good friend.

KATE: After all the accolades, the Emmys, the Grammys, the Peabody Awards, the quintessential American filmmaker is a father first, a dad with a knack for telling great American stories.

KATE: What would you like your legacy to be?

How would you like to be known?

KEN: So, there are two "F" words on my tombstone.

One is "filmmaker," and the other is "father."

KATE: Mm-Hmm.

KEN: "Father" goes ahead of "filmmaker."

Cause that's the most important job I've ever had.

I have four daughters.

They are "it" for me.

"It" for me.

I don't know.

That's the only thing that really matters.

So that's the thing.

I...if I...if...if it was that I was a good father, great.

If I was a good filmmaker, that's just icing on the cake.

KATE: Ken, thank you for this amazing meal.

Honestly, it's wonderful to meet you and really for sharing some insight into really the arc of your career.

KEN: Thank you.

KATE: It's been so interesting.

KEN: Thank you.

It's been wonderful.

KATE: Cheers to you.

Yeah.

KEN: Thank you.

KATE: What a meal with Ken Burns, whose passion for filmmaking was on full display.

He shared a bit of himself, didn't he?

His home: Walpole, New Hampshire.

His favorite restaurant: Burdick's, with elevated cuisine in a small town setting.

If this is "Cheers, he is "Norm."

That is, If "Norm" was one of the greatest historical storytellers of our time.

Listen to his why.

Filmmaking allows him to wake the dead or make people come alive.

In storytelling, facts are essential, but it's the emotion that really moves hearts.

He does the work in service of history and education, and he does it all his way: in a small town setting far from the lights of New York or LA, he gets it done: Ken style.

And that is truly "The Ken Burns Effect."

(Majestic orchestral music) KATE: If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: At American National, we honor the "do"-ers and the dreamers: the people who get things done and keep the world moving.

Our local agents are honored to serve your community because it's their community too.

American National.