To Dine For with Kate Sullivan

KATE SULLIVAN: In the heart of Hollywood, where the lights are bright and the stars come out to shine, there is a mom-and-pop pizzeria turned Hollywood icon that offers its own show-stopping experience night after night.

It is where I am meeting another complete standout, the one-and-only Bozoma Saint John.

KATE: Hey.

BOZOMA SAINT JOHN: You look fabulous.

KATE: So, do you.

BOZOMA: Thank you.

KATE: So, do you.

A larger than life C-Suite marketing titan who has helped helm some of the most iconic brands of our day, and in the process, become an icon all of her own.

BOZOMA: (Kate laughs) Sequins on a Tuesday.

You know, like (Bozoma laughs) whenever I wanted (laughs) bright red lipstick and my nails done, you know.

Hey, I just wasn't like anybody up there.

KATE: Today, she's taking me to her favorite restaurant, the oldest pizzeria in Hollywood, A family joint with legendary lasagna and a one-of-a-kind style.

KATE: This is like a movie set.

BOZOMA: Isn't it so great?

KATE: To get the full story of how Bozoma Saint John, visionary marketing genius and now published author, learned to leverage all of her life circumstances, embracing every part of her own story and style, to lead in a way that gets results and breaks barriers.

BOZOMA: Whoever brings their full self into the work, I think, is the one who wins.

KATE: Hmm.

And we learn how big love and great loss have pushed her forward to live a life that is not just intentional, but deeply urgent.

BOZOMA: This is our life.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: And so... KATE: This is our life.

BOZOMA: I don't want to wait.

I don't wanna wait... KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: For the things that I want to have in my life, to feel satisfied in it.

(Upbeat pop-rock music) KATE: What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food, and an amazing conversation.

My name is Kate Sullivan, and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers, visionaries, artists; those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them, and their American dream.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: At American National, we honor the "do"-ers and the dreamers: the people who get things done and keep the world moving.

Our local agents are honored to serve your community because it's their community too.

American National.

KATE: Today, I'm in Hollywood at an old-school Italian restaurant called Miceli's, with an incredible history.

I'm meeting a dynamic business woman who is considered one of the most powerful voices in marketing.

She's a dreamer and a visionary.

Her name is Bozoma Saint John.

KATE: Bozoma, how are you?

BOZOMA: Nice to meet you.

KATE: It's so nice to meet you.

BOZOMA: Pleasure.

KATE: Thank you for doing this.

BOZOMA: I'm excited.

KATE: This is like a movie set.

BOZOMA: Isn't it so great?

KATE: Founded in 1949 by Carmen Miceli, who brought Sicilian style straight to the heart of Hollywood, Miceli's serves up authentic family recipes, Chianti by the jug, along with the sensational side dish of spontaneous song.

FRANK MICELI: If you look around, you look at all the wood that we have.

The wood came from a restaurant that burned down in Hollywood, 1956, called The Big Whistle.

My father salvaged all the wood.

So, there's a lot of old stuff in the restaurant.

I see something new every day, and I've been here every day.

KATE: With windows restored from the University of Southern California's Class of 1909 and stained glass from a centuries-old Los Angeles church to the almost, 4,000 Chianti bottles hanging from the ceiling, all signed by guests, to the wall-to-wall all-out old-school dcor, Miceli's pays homage to both its home in the heart of Hollywood and to its own deep-rooted family tradition.

FRANK: I'd say 90 percent of the time there's a Miceli here.

And so, it's always nice when people look and they... "Oh, you're Mr.

Miceli."

"Well, actually that's my dad, but I'm Frank, but, yes."

KATE: You may even recognize Miceli's from your own favorite movies.

FRANK: "Nightfall," uh, was the first one - Aldo Ray and, uh, Anne Bancroft.

The original "Terminator."

"Master of Disguise."

Uh, "Johnny Hollywood."

A, "A Vampire in Brooklyn."

KATE: And the list goes on.

But it's the love-infused family recipes that tie the whole plot together.

A menu of Italian favorites made the Miceli way.

FRANK: I personally think the lasagna's the best thing on the menu, maybe because it reminds me of my Aunt Ange.

So, we call it Aunt Angie's lasagna.

Um, growing up, my Aunt Ange was our head chef...the way she would just crank the lasagna out with the, the meat and the cheeses and the layers and all that fun stuff.

And it was really pretty impressive.

KATE: Today, we will taste this house favorite, Aunt Angie's original lasagna, alongside Miceli's antipasto salad with salami, mozzarella, roasted red peppers, and green and black olives, along with the fresh baked Italian rolls.

It is the perfect place to sit down with Bozoma Saint John, author, visionary, and marketing phenom, who embraces her own distinct culture style-- and so much more to bring her entire self to the C-suite-- and everywhere else she goes.

KATE: So...first of all, thank you for bringing me here.

BOZOMA: Aww.

KATE: I'm fascinated by your career journey, but I want to begin with where we are, Miceli's.

BOZOMA: Yes.

Yes.

KATE: And you know, I believe that food is love.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: And I know.

BOZOMA: I agree.

KATE: That you believe that too.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: So, can you tell me why we're here?

BOZOMA: First of, let me...fabulous.

It's a fabulous restaurant.

KATE: Mm-Hmm.

BOZOMA: It's family owned.

And I love the idea of love in the food, you know, cooked by people who really care about how it is, not just made, but served and the atmosphere and the conversation.

Like all of the things.

You know...because...like, food isn't just the ingredients that go in.

KATE: No.

Right.

BOZOMA: It's all of the things that surround it.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: And so, having a family who is making the food, who has made it for decades, you know, really speaks to me because it's how I learned in my own life how to cook.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: You know?

And Italian food has a special place in my heart because it is the food of my late husband's family.

They're Italian.

Uh, my Italian mother-in-law.

(both laugh) BOZOMA: Very Italian mother-in-law.

(both laugh) KATE: There was a point in your life where she said, "This is lasagna was something you're gonna have to learn to make."

BOZOMA: Oh, yes.

Oh...there was...there was...

I knew in that moment that there was not a doubt in her mind that I would make this food, this lasagna, exactly the way she made it for her child in exactly the same way.

KATE: It was your late husband's favorite dish.

BOZOMA: Oh, yes.

KATE: And that's what we're gonna be eating today.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: Correct?

BOZOMA: Yes!

Exactly.

Exactly.

In homage... KATE: The first time that you made it for your mother-in-law... BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: ...and your late husband, Peter.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: What was her reaction?

BOZOMA: (laughs) Well, I would say that, uh, that moment between the slicing, plating, and the first fork felt like a year in my life...gone.

(laughs) You know?

KATE: The anxiety.

BOZOMA: Oh, the anxiety.

And I was sweating bullets.

(Kate laughs) But, when she tasted it, she said it was beautiful... KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: ...which is, eh, maybe one of the best compliments I've ever received.

She didn't say it tasted good, she said it was beautiful.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: Ohhh... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...like... KATE: You were showing her love too, because you were respecting the fact that...that is her culture.

BOZOMA: And I think also just, um, you know, having grown up in my own house or in my mother's house, in her kitchen, seeing her prepare.

It is very similar actually... KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: ...in behavior.

So, it wasn't foreign to me to be in that kind of environment-- high pressure environment, you know, in that when people, uh, ate my mother's food, she was also not just waiting for the compliment on her food, but she had put everything that she had into it.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: And so, the respect that I wanted to show by making it for her was definitely part of the motivation.

KATE: Of Ghanaian descent, Bozoma was born in Middletown, Connecticut, while her father pursued a Ph.D. at Wesleyan University.

When she was a baby, the family made their way back to Africa, moving several times until leaving Ghana when Bozoma was 12 years old to set up new roots in Colorado.

WAITER: Two lasagnas as well.

KATE: Oh, my goodness.

BOZOMA: Ooh, yes.

Bring it on.

KATE: Bring it on.

BOZOMA: Bring all... look at this.

KATE: A salad for you.

BOZOMA: Oh, Thank you.

KATE: Of course.

BOZOMA: That's very kind of you.

KATE: Bon Apptit.

BOZOMA: Grazie.

KATE: Grazie.

(both laugh) You arrived in the U.S. when you were...

BOTH: 12.

BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: And was Colorado your first stop?

BOZOMA: Yes.

Mm-hmm.

KATE: What was that like?

Coming from Ghana... BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: And the experience of walking into a nearly all-white world... BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: Right?

It must've been, been... BOZOMA: Well... KATE: ...crazy.

BOZOMA: You know what's interesting is that, um, I wasn't intimidated by that idea.

Like, I remember when my parents were telling us, we were gonna move.

I didn't feel scared about it, but I distinctly remember being so confused when I walked into the classroom, not because they were all white kids, but because they didn't understand where I was coming from.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: Like, "I'm...I'm, you don't know where Ghana is?"

Like, they'll say, "Africa."

KATE: Oh, wow.

BOZOMA: And I was like, "Africa?

No, Ghana."

KATE: Right.

Right.

Exactly.

BOZOMA: No, there's a specific country.

KATE: No, there's a country.

Yes.

BOZOMA: No, no...a country.

Like I...I remember being very surprised that they didn't know about me, but I knew about them.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: But then, it was quickly, I quickly understood why they didn't understand.

Because all of the signs, TV shows, commercials, programs at church that talked about Africa were so derogatory.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: You know, that, then I was just like, "Oh, okay.

I know why you think we don't wear clothes."

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: I know why you think we don't understand English (laugh), even though my mother speaks five languages and my dad speaks six.

And that...perhaps, was like my first understanding of - one... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...making that leverage for me.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: Always knowing more about the situation I'm going into, even if they don't know about me.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: Because then there's the element of surprise or the element of mystery.

KATE: Wow.

BOZOMA: You know, that I can keep as much to myself as I want... KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: ...or I can hit you over the head with it.

(laughs) KATE: It's almost like it planted the seed for you to be a storyteller.

BOZOMA: Oh, yes.

KATE: Back then... BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: ...because you said, "I have got to correct the misconceptions."

BOZOMA: Yes.

Yes.

KATE: "These people don't know anything..." BOZOMA: They don't know anything.

KATE: "...about my reality and what I experienced."

BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

KATE: Oh, that's fascinating.

I am going to, to dive into this lasagna.

BOZOMA: Yeah, let's go right in.

Sees the first bite.

KATE: The moment of truth here.

BOZOMA: The first bite.

KATE: And this cheese pull.

BOZOMA: Mmmm.

KATE: Oh, look at that cheese pull.

Nice.

BOZOMA: Mm-Hmm.

KATE: Mm-Hmm.

Mm-Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's good.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

It has like a little smokiness to it too, right?

KATE: Yes.

It's delicious.

BOZOMA: So good.

KATE: It's delicious.

Yes.

BOZOMA: So good.

KATE: Bozoma went to Wesleyan University, her father's alma mater, with the intention of going onto medical school, but unstoppable curiosity and gut instincts kicked in, taking her down a completely different path.

KATE: I love that, you know, you were pre-med.

BOZOMA: Hmm.

KATE: You were doing all the things your father who really wanted a boy and had four girls.

BOZOMA: Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

KATE: And you carried that... BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: ...burden and also... BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: ...responsibility.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: Here you are the firstborn.

BOZOMA: Now here's the complexity of that.

I did finish pre-med.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: So, I took the full course load.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: I took the MCAT.

I did all the things.

KATE: Oh, my gosh.

BOZOMA: I know.

KATE: Oh, my gosh.

You also convinced Wesleyan to allow you to teach a course on Tupac.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: Which I think is extraordinary.

(Bozoma laughs) The fact that you presented the idea, had the wherewithal, and then taught the course... BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: ...for several semesters.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

Well, it just seemed so natural.

(Kate laughs) It seemed, it...it made sense to me.

(both laugh) KATE: You were following your curiosity... BOZOMA: Mm-Hmm.

KATE: ...and your passion and who you were.

BOZOMA: Yes.

Yes.

KATE: What was it about the life of Tupac that you wanted people to know?

BOZOMA: You know, I think I found him interesting, like me.

(both laugh) That I...I found our stories to intersect, not because we were from the same place, or that I was a rapper or anything like that.

(Kate laughs) But the fact that, um, he was seen as one way to the world... KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: ...but was actually quite another.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: And I was so disturbed by that, too.

Even at 17, 18, 19, you know?

(laughs) And I was just like, "Why is everybody just calling him a gangster-rapper?"

He's a poet...

He's an activist...

He is an actor...

He's a lyricist.... Like, he's...he's so much more.

He's a cultural commentator.

KATE: A renaissance man.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: Like, so many things.

And I just found him fascinating.

And I, the reason why I say I identified with that was, I was...like...look, people see me as one thing.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: But I'm so much more... KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: ...than that.

KATE: Well, and it was you, this pre-med major, following your own personal curiosity.

BOZOMA: Yes.

Yeah.

KATE: And...and an intellectual curiosity and seeing where it would lead.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

Yeah.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: But, actually in hindsight, I mean, it was probably the beginnings of what would become my career.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: You know, trying to develop a narrative under the understanding of pop culture.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: You know, music being at the center of it.

Blackness being another.

You know, just all of the intricacies that came with that course and the development of it, the strategy of it, the discussion of it, you know, certainly was probably foreshadowing (laughs) what, what my career would be like.

KATE: After graduation, Bozoma made her way to New York City, where she took temp jobs to pay the bills until one day destiny came knocking, a chance to answer phones at a new advertising agency called Spike DDB, led by the famed director, Spike Lee.

KATE: I love the story you tell in the book of, um, I believe it was a restaurant in Harlem.

BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

Oh!

KATE: And you, we didn't have cell phones.

And you had quarters and you were feeding the payphone... BOZOMA: I'm telling you.

KATE: ...to a temp agency... BOZOMA: Mmm.

KATE: ...'cause you were looking for a job... BOZOMA: Mmm.

KATE: ...and you were getting random temp jobs.

And then, out of the blue... BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: ...you get a call to go work for Spike Lee from the temp agency.

BOZOMA: From the temp agency.

Yeah.

KATE: You had to see like, talk about luck.

BOZOMA: Yeah!

KATE: I mean, did you not think to yourself, "This is crazy."

BOZOMA: Mmm.

KATE: "I am now working for Spike Lee."

BOZOMA: Mm-Hmm.

Yeah.

KATE: What was that first day like?

BOZOMA: (laughs) Well, I didn't know how long I was gonna have the job, so I didn't walk in there feeling like I've gotta make a big impression, you know.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: I walked in knowing that, okay, the job is to answer the phones, temporarily, while he looks for his replacement assistant.

That was the job.

But when I came in there, you know, as divine timing, or luck... KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: ...or whatever you wanna call it... KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: Serendipity... KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: ...would have it.

Um, he was walking through with his script of "Bamboozled" under his arm, and then like innocence and naivet... KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: ...which led me to ask whether or not I could read it.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: I would never do that now.

KATE: Really?

BOZOMA: No.

I mean, well, maybe.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: I mean, but you know, I think... KATE: Decorum would... BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: ...would tell you not to.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

Would tell you not to do that.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: Because he's a famed, storied, accomplished filmmaker, and he's clearly busy.

So what makes you think that you should ask him what he's carrying and if you can read it?

But I didn't know any better.

KATE: Amazing.

BOZOMA: You know, so I think the lesson also in all of that, for me, and you're right, it's like, not just from Spike, but from my mom, was this really, uh, a knowing that what I have is important... KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: ...even if the world doesn't appreciate it.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: Even if the surrounding community or influencers are going to look down on it, I'm going to do it anyway.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: And that was an enormous lesson for how I behave now, (laugh) How I've behaved for the last 20-plus years and, and how I am today.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: All of those things are a part of it, and fed into that identity assurance for me.

KATE: At Spike Lee's agency, Bozoma made an early mark by suggesting that, soda giant Pepsi take a chance on a new solo artist named Beyonc, which led to nearly a decade as the head of music marketing for Pepsi.

Bozoma's career was on the rise, and so was her personal life.

She met and married Peter Saint John, and together they had a daughter named Lael.

But she also experienced staggering loss - the suicide of a college boyfriend, the devastating loss of a baby born prematurely, and then the loss of her dear husband, Peter, who died of cancer within months of being diagnosed.

KATE: You talk about some really hard experiences in your life, and you do it with, you do it wholeheartedly by sharing exactly what you were going through and what you were thinking.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: What has loss, in particular... BOZOMA: Hmm.

KATE: ...taught you about how to truly live?

BOZOMA: Mmm.

Well, there's this Japanese art form called Kintsugi.

KATE: Is that where you put the gold?

BOZOMA: Yes.

It's like a broken piece of pottery... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...or ceramic or something...plate... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...cup...that you put back together with a precious metal.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: You know, I feel like I'm the human version of Kintsugi.

KATE: Oh, wow.

BOZOMA: You know, it's like loss has broken me.

It's, it's broken, you know.

It's like, and sometimes I think what we're going through grief, we just wanna get back to normal.

KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: People say, well, you know, time heals all wounds and, you know, you'll get through it.

And I'm like, no you don't.

That's a, that's, those were lies.

You know, grief never leaves.

I don't, I don't know anyone who has lost someone that they loved and feel like they got over it.

KATE: No.

KATE: At what point?

KATE: You're on a completely different path.

BOZOMA: Oh, absolutely.

KATE: On a new path.

BOZOMA: Absolutely.

A new path.

KATE: You're a new person.

BOZOMA: Yes!

Yes!

And that, that's what I celebrate in myself.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: Even in loss.

And so, that is what it has taught me.

I am a new being.

Like, when I think of Kintsugi, it's like somebody had to pick up those pieces.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: And put it back together.

KATE: Right.

Right.

BOZOMA: Somebody had to have the intention... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...that I want to use this thing again, and I'm going to find a way to put it back together.

KATE: And what a lesson to other people going through really hard times.

BOZOMA: Mmm.

KATE: That there is a way forward, and it's not going to look it, like your old life... BOZOMA: It won't.

KATE: ...but there is a way to make it beautiful.

BOZOMA: Yes.

Yes.

Loss has broken me.

That made me an even more spectacular person.

KATE: Mmm...mmm.

BOZOMA: These gold veins that are etching along the lines of my grief are beautiful.

And I am grateful for it.

(Gentle synth-pop music) KATE: As a newly single mother, Bozoma took a new job in Los Angeles with Beats Music, which later became Apple Music.

At an Apple tech conference, Bosoma delivered a presentation that famously stole the show - single-handedly showcasing a new vision for Silicon Valley leadership.

She then went on to top jobs with major brands like Uber and Endeavor before landing in the C-suite at Netflix, the company's first Black C-Suite executive.

KATE: At one point in your career... BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: ...you taught a class at Harvard called "The Anatomy of a Badass."

BOZOMA: Yes.

That's correct.

KATE: Is that correct?

BOZOMA: Yes, that's absolutely right.

(both laugh) You know, when I was at Uber.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: That was not an easy or smooth job.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: And the beauty that came out of the chaos and stress of it was I met Frances Frei... KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: ...who is a Harvard Business School professor.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: Actually beloved.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: Everyone who went to busine--- Harvard Business School, like when I mentioned her name, "Oh, yeah.

Professor Frei!"

Like, you know, she's storied.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: But she saw me work... KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: ...in an environment that wasn't like me at all.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: Right?

Like they were all kind of tech bros up there.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: And I was walking around with my stilettos and a big Afro (laughs) and... KATE: Sequins.

(laughs) BOZOMA: Oh, sequins on a Tuesday, you know.

(laughs) Like, whenever I wanted!

(both laugh) Bright red lipstick and my nails done, you know.

Hey, I just wasn't like anybody up there.

KATE: Here I am, world.

BOZOMA: Oh, yeah.

All the things.

And when, you know, we all scattered to the different parts of the wind after, you know, we left Uber, she went back to teaching at Harvard.

And she called me one day and said, "I wanna write a case on you."

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I was, like, "What?

A Harvard Business case?"

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: "Why?

Like, on, I don't understand, on what part of me?"

She said, "Well, on your leadership."

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I was like, she wanted to understand how I led with authenticity.

KATE: Oh, wow.

BOZOMA: Regardless of where I was.

And I just found it to be so validating, affirming.

It's really something special to be seen.

KATE: And lesson number one is what?

BOZOMA: Ahh.

To show up as yourself.

KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: And lesson number two?

BOZOMA: Show up as yourself.

(laughs) KATE: Ahh.

BOZOMA: (laughing) If you fail once, try and try again.

KATE: So much of marketing is data-driven.

BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: Right?

But you come at it from a completely different angle.

BOZOMA: Well, I mean, I think that is why I'm so adamant for everyone to show up as themselves.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: You know, because the data only takes you so far.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: The magic of the work that we do, whether it's marketing or any other thing, uh, is your interpretation of the data.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: Your interpretation.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: 'Cause your interpretation is gonna be different from that person's interpretation... KATE: Yes.

BOZOMA: ...versus because of what you've been through.

Whoever brings their full self into the work, I think is the one who wins.

KATE: Hmm, hmm.

BOZOMA: Not the one who does the bland thing.

KATE: Hmm.

You've had to employ so many different skill sets.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: What do you think your superpower is in business terms?

BOZOMA: Yeah.

My superpower is that I see people.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I see them.

KATE: How so?

BOZOMA: Oh, I love people.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I love people.

I love their stories.

And so, it's not for me, it's not just the end consumer, the end audience.

I love the people that I'm working with.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I wanna know more about them.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: Like, I value their experience.

KATE: Right.

BOZOMA: I think that's what makes me a dynamic leader.

I think that's what makes me special and different, is that when I'm sitting down at the table and somebody's presenting their idea, I wanna know everything about them.

KATE: Hmm.

BOZOMA: I wanna know why it is that they decided that, that joke was funny, (laugh), or why they thought that-- that, you know, piece of data that they've put into the commercial as a fact is going to be interesting.

You know, because we could choose anything.

And my complete obsession with understanding our nuances as people, I think, is what has made the difference for me in my leadership style.

KATE: You listen to people.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: So, you wrote this book.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: "The Urgent Life."

BOZOMA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: And it is a deeply personal book.

BOZOMA: Mmm.

KATE: It is, uh, a book about love and it's a book about loss.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: It is not the book I thought I would read from you.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: I thought I would read a book on career advice.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

Yeah.

KATE: And, and, and ascending the corporate ladder as you have done with such success.

BOZOMA: Yeah.

KATE: Why did you write the book you wrote?

BOZOMA: The title is obviously not an accident...like the urgency in my life has been formed because of the traumas that I have suffered, the losses that I've suffered.

I've seen death close-up on too many occasions.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: And I understand, not just the preciousness of life in and of itself... KATE: Mm-hmm.

BOZOMA: ...but the need for us to be satisfied at the end of it.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: And regardless of what time it comes.

KATE: Mmm.

BOZOMA: You know, that this is not a race to get to 95.

This is our life.

KATE: Right.

This is our life.

BOZOMA: You know, this is our life.

And so I don't wanna wait... KATE: Yeah.

BOZOMA: ...for the things that I want to have in my life, to feel satisfied in it.

KATE: That you're living the life you wanna live.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: And you're doing it with heart, passion, and all of you.

BOZOMA: The urgency is the intention of doing the things that you want to do in your life, you know, and feeling satisfied with those things.

KATE: Bozoma, thank you so much for joining me.

BOZOMA: Thank you.

Should we toast?

KATE: Cheers to you.

BOZOMA: Thank you.

KATE: And to the urgent life.

BOZOMA: Yes.

KATE: Yeah.

Thank you.

(Uplifting rhythmic pop music) KATE: Wow, what a meal with Bozoma Saint John.

A dynamic force of nature.

Her journey has not been easy, a winding road full of obstacles, hardship, and tragedy.

No one wants a hard life.

No one says, "Sign me up for a difficult journey."

But the mountain Bozoma has had to scale, to have the success she has had in corporate America, is a testimony to her, her grit, and her brilliance.

People ask, "How does Bozoma have so much presence and confidence?"

The answer is clear.

When you know who you are, and you know where you've been, you can walk into any room and know deep in your soul, this too can be overcome.

KATE: If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: At American National, we honor the "do"-ers and the dreamers: the people who get things done and keep the world moving.

Our local agents are honored to serve your community because it's their community too.

American National.