Breaking the Deadlock

AARON TANG: This is a story about life-and-death decisions.

Who gets to make them, us or the government?

ROGER SEVERINO: This is a pro-life state.

For us here, we recognize the dignity of every human being.

And I believe in choice in all matters.

I would much rather not have the state involved in these decisions at all.

There are two patients, not just one.

ANDREA PICCIOTTI-BAYER: But I think every pregnancy is perfect.

Is it perfect if a woman dies?

We chose to give birth and my son is doing beautifully now.

TANG: Her body, her choice.

- Yeah.

TANG: Now it's your daughter.

You don't want her to have the choice?

I feel worse.

- Mm-hmm.

SCOTT JENNINGS: Because I have adults putting medication in my minor child's hands.

We're criminalizing young people who are just trying to make the best decisions for their lives.

TANG: Would you try to go after her?

Prosecution, jail time, fines?

SEVERINO: To the extent we can.

This is black-market practices.

I'll go to jail.

STEVE BULLOCK: My freedom and your freedom may be different.

I don't think it's government that grants it, but I think the government has to protect it.

ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

TANG: Panelists, welcome.

This is a story about life and death and the government's role when we, the people, choose between the two.

Over the next hour, we will explore these hard topics in a story that we'll tell together.

Each of you will have a crucial role, but you don't know it yet.

And the decisions you make will shape how our story ends.

We'll start our story in the State of Middlevania, in a town called Libertyville, at a kitchen table that belongs to you, Molly Jong-Fast... - All right.

TANG: ...and Steve Bullock.

- (laughing) (laughter) - Am I cooking?

(laughter) Molly... Molly, you are a well-known writer.

- Okay.

TANG: Steve, a prominent attorney, and the two of you are proud parents of a high school senior named Alice.

- Okay.

TANG: She's a good kid, smart, responsible.

It's Friday night, and dinner is takeout, because it's been a long day.

You're sitting down to eat, and Alice comes into the room, and she asks you a question that strikes fear into the hearts of parents everywhere, "Mom, Dad, can I take one of your cars tomorrow?"

What do you say?

- "Alice, you know the rules."

- (chuckles) - "I have you on Life360."

- (laughs) - "I'm monitoring you every moment.

"You're now allow... You know... "Basically, you have an electronic cord.

Of course, just be responsible."

If... TANG: If Molly... - ...Molly agrees.

TANG: Just check with Molly.

- Yeah, I was going to say.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

TANG: You're okay?

- Yeah.

With that?

Do you care whose car she takes?

- "Take your father's car."

(laughter) TANG: You trust your daughter.

She says, "Do you want to know where I'm going?"

- Yes.

- Yes.

"You'll never believe it.

"Christine just got tickets to the 'Kpop Demon Hunters' concert "over in Fredonia.

(laughter) "So it's in the afternoon, we'll leave at noon, we'll be back around 8:00."

Christine, you know, is Alice's best friend.

Your whole family is very close.

Fredonia is the neighboring state, just a couple of hours away-- but, a few things come to your mind that feel a little bit off.

Christine slept over at your house last weekend.

She was nauseous.

She threw up in the morning.

Fredonia is the closest state where abortion is legal.

Here in Middlevania, abortion is a crime.

What's going through your mind as you put these pieces together?

She's badass and she should (bleep) do it.

Excuse my French.

Am I allowed to curse?

She should take her friend to get an abortion if her friend wants to get an abortion, and good for her, and, you know, this was legal up until two years ago or whatever.

TANG: Wow.

- So, yeah.

And if she needs me to defend her, I will... You know, I, I... Good for her, man, you know?

No questions, no concerns?

JONG-FAST: I mean, I, I'm Jewish.

Like, all I have are questions and concerns and anxiety, but, but, you know, if she wants, if her, if her friend is, like, "You need to help me," and she's willing to make that kind of risk to help her friend, then I, you know, I have nothing but respect for it, and I feel I've raised a, a kid who... TANG: Steve, you don't look so sure.

- (laughs) - Well, I agree, yet, if we've raised our daughter right, she should be willing to say, "This is why I'm going to Fredonia."

- Right, that's true.

- And... You know, that lack of communication is something, like, if it raised sort of those, that Spidey sense, I'd say, "Look, if, if that's what it is, let's put it on the table and let's talk about it."

Do you call your daughter down?

Yeah.

- Yeah.

TANG: "Mom, Dad, what's up?"

"Honey, um, your friend seemed a little off last week.

"You're going to Fredonia.

"Is it just for 'KPop Demon Hunters,' or is there something else going on?"

TANG: "Dad, "Mom, the truth is, Christine is pregnant.

"She made me promise I wouldn't even tell you.

"Because you know Christine's parents, "they're your friends.

"They love her, but they might not agree on this, "so that's why I need the car.

I want to take her to Fredonia for this abortion."

How old are they?

TANG: Alice is 18.

Christine is 17.

And as you are thinking this through, you look over.

The TV's been playing in the background.

Breaking news headline on the local news.

Middlevania has just passed a law making it a crime for an adult to transport a minor across state lines for an abortion... (groaning) TANG: ...without the consent of the parents.

- Ooh.

TANG: Roger Severino, you are the newly elected governor of our great state of Middlevania, after a hotly contested election.

I'm wondering if you signed this law into effect.

- I did.

TANG: Why?

- Well, number one, this state recognizes the inherent human dignity of every human being, regardless of if, whether they're in the womb or not in the womb, and second, the right of parents to be the primary caregivers of the moral and physical health and safety of their own children.

And not to let people usurp their role and take their kids across state lines to do something that is illegal here.

JONG-FAST: I mean, I find it just enraging, the idea that now this girl has less rights than the fetus, right?

I don't know how many weeks.

How many weeks pregnant is she?

TANG: She says she's, like, 12 weeks.

JONG-FAST: 12 weeks, okay.

So, she's, so technically, now that 12-week, I don't know how many ounces, has more rights than the woman who is carrying it.

I'm just, just... (indistinct) TANG: Alice says, "But are you still okay with me taking the car?"

- See, I would... I'll just drive her.

(laughs) TANG: You'll drive her?

- I'll probably drive her.

I would probably drive her.

BULLOCK: So, I would prefer Molly to drive her than Alice to take the car.

JONG-FAST: Yeah, yeah.

Because I'll go to jail.

I mean, like, honestly, this is so preposterous, and, like, we... Can you put yourself in the shoes of Christine's parents?

Suppose it was your daughter... - Okay.

TANG: ...Alice, who was pregnant, and Alice told Christine's parents, your old friends, and Christine's parents did not tell you about this huge development in your daughter's life.

You didn't even know.

How would that feel for you?

- Well, that, I think that's a real ethical question.

- And I... I mean, I would hope that Christine's relationship with her parents are like Alice's with me and Molly, that... You raise your kids, not right, but you raise them in a way that you can have these difficult conversations.

TANG: And you know, in fact, that Christine's parents are wonderful parents-- you go way back with them.

But they are pro-life, they're religious.

Are you sure you're comfortable driving Christine, without even thinking about their perspective?

- So, I would probably, I mean, this is... I mean, I would probably make Christine tell her parents.

I mean, because I don't think it's, because she's 17, I don't think it's appropriate.

TANG: Brittany Packnett Cunningham, you are a prominent political commentator here in Middlevania.

You've got a very popular podcast.

Many of your listeners are young adults, including some young women, like 18-year-old Alice.

Can you help us understand what might be going through Alice's mind as she talks about this decision with her parents?

Alice is thinking about friendship.

The idea that you might be ending a friendship or betraying a friend's trust, as a young woman, is a devastating feeling.

I'm also guessing that Alice, if she was raised by Molly... (laughs) ...is probably thinking that she believes it's also asinine that she nor Christine have the agency to engage in this right where they live, let alone across state lines, and go through a medical procedure that a number of birthing people go through every year.

TANG: Okay-- decision time.

Alice says, "Just let me take the keys.

Can I do that?"

- Ooh.

(laughs) TANG: Is this hard?

Is it hard?

- Like... Yeah.

- It's hard!

I mean, we would have to get to the same place... JONG-FAST: Yeah, I mean, it's... You're going to let your 18-year-old... I mean, I do think that the, that, that this is so incorrect, what these legislators are doing, that being on the correct side of history is worth a lot.

TANG: Okay.

It's still Friday night.

Alice's parents, Molly and Steve, are really wrestling with this difficult dilemma.

As they do that, Christine's parents are going to make a difficult discovery of their own.

Andrea Picciotti-Bayer.

(Jong-Fast laughing) TANG: Scott Jennings.

The two of you were high school sweethearts.

Christine is your daughter, she's 17.

You have a son, too, Max.

He's 14, and Max comes in and gives you something he's found when he was snooping around in Christine's room.

Two prescription medicine bottles... JONG-FAST: Wow.

- ...for mifepristone and misoprostol.

Abortion pills.

Now, the pills are still in the bottle, and the date on the bottle is from three weeks ago.

But I have to ask, how does it feel to make this truly difficult discovery?

It's, it's like a gut punch, right?

Because something's going on in our daughter's life, and we didn't know about it.

You look down at the bottle, and the labels are unlike anything you've seen before.

The name of the drug is on the bottle, but the space where the name of the doctor who prescribed the drug is empty.

The patient's name, empty.

Does that seem right to you, Scott?

- This does not seem right, and it, now I have a whole host of questions about where these things came from, who helped procure them.

Did they even come from a doctor?

Did they come from the United States?

- To help us understand what might be happening here, let's talk to Professor Michele Goodwin.

Professor Goodwin, you are a national expert on health law.

You're also a senior policy adviser to the governor of Fredonia, Middlevania's neighboring state, where abortion is legal.

Can you help us understand how or why there might be a prescription drug bottle in Scott's hand that doesn't have the name of the doctor?

After the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey in 2022, there were nearly two dozen states now that have enacted what are called shield laws, and what these shield laws do is to protect doctors in states where reproductive health rights, justice matters, are still legal.

The reason why these states have enacted these shield laws that protect doctors is because in states that have passed abortion bans, there have been now, with that, laws that could criminally penalize a doctor for performing an abortion, with the penalty being up to 99 years incarceration.

TANG: Fredonia, in fact, has passed exactly the kind of shield law that Professor Goodwin has described.

It allows prescribing physicians in Fredonia to keep their identity hidden from parents, like Andrea and Scott.

Let's talk to a doctor who is protected by Fredonia's shield law.

That's you, Dr.

Jennifer Gunter.

(Gunter laughs) TANG: Dr.

Gunter, you are a OB/GYN who lives and practices in Fredonia, and I'm wondering, if a patient from Middlevania were to come to you and ask for abortion pills, would you be comfortable writing that prescription?

- Absolutely.

TANG: Why?

- Because everybody has a right to control what happens to their own body.

These are incredibly safe medications.

It is safer to have a medication abortion than to take a pregnancy to term.

And I believe in choice in all matters, so I would absolutely support that person.

TANG: And in fact, the pills that Scott Jennings is holding in his hand were prescribed by you, Dr.

Gunter.

Do you have any second thoughts, doubts, now that the pills you prescribed to Christine have been discovered by her parents?

I don't.

Because a 17-year-old can show up in labor and delivery and get a C-section in most places without her parents, and if she can get a C-section, she can surely take a medication that is safer than a C-section.

TANG: Governor Severino.

- Dr.

Gunter would not be allowed to practice in Middlevania, because in this state, we recognize that with every pregnancy, there are two patients, not just one, and both patients need to be protected in law and by the doctors treating them.

That is a fundamental difference between this state and Fredonia, so she would not be welcome to practice medicine here.

TANG: But if she lives and practices in Fredonia, prescribes these pills, perhaps in a telehealth appointment, never steps foot in your state, would you try to go after her?

Prosecution, jail time, fines?

- To the extent we can.

So, in circumstances where they're mailing pills, unregulated by our state, this is black-market practices-- this is illegal.

We have the ability to regulate the practice of medicine in our state, and we have somebody without the jurisdiction, without the regulation, without the supervision of our system, just like in any other state, they do not have a right to practice here.

TANG: Scott Jennings, does anything anybody's said here make you feel any better about your dilemma?

- No, I feel worse.

- Mm-hmm.

- Because I have adults who I don't know, in other places, putting medication in my daughter, my minor child's hands without my knowing about it, without my wife knowing about it, without us knowing any of the circumstances of this, so no, I feel, I feel much worse about what I've heard here, because everybody seems to want to get in the middle of the relationship between us and our child, and it's troubling to me.

TANG: The door opens.

Christine comes in.

She sees the two of you in the living room.

"Mom, Dad, what's going on?"

"Baby girl, we know something's going on, "and we found-- Max found these in your room.

"He brought them to us.

"And we, we want to figure out what's, what's the story here, "and what kind of help do you need from us "to work through this very, very difficult time, "and we just want to, you to know that we will love you like we've loved you since the day we learned about you."

TANG: "But you should know something else.

"It's too late for me to take those pills.

"I'm now 12 weeks pregnant.

"The doctor says if I want an abortion, "I have to have a procedure.

"I have a plan, an appointment tomorrow in Fredonia.

"Alice has offered to take me, but I don't know if I'm going to do it."

- Well, I think we say, you know, "That doubt that you have right there "is your conscience.

"It's telling you that there's something "just not right-settling with you, and we want to be with you and work through this."

"But Mom, I also have doubts in the other way.

"You raised me always to believe in the sanctity of life, "but you also raised me to pursue my dreams.

"You know I have a dream of being a doctor myself, of saving lives-- I've worked so hard."

"Sweetie, there are so many supports that you can find "to be able to mother, along with the, the help "that your father and I are going to give to you, "and continue to learn, grow, and pursue those dreams.

"And, and you'll find, as a mom, "that's one of the greatest dreams you can have in life come to, to fruition."

TANG: "Thank you for loving me and trusting me, "but can you promise me that in the end, it will be my decision?"

Yeah, that's a tough one, Aaron.

(chuckling) TANG: Sorry, it is hard.

And I'm saying it's a tough one because you're 17, and we all know that we grow and mature in that very important time from our late teens until our 20s, and understanding the impact of these kind of consequential decisions are very, very challenging.

TANG: "If I take a week "to think about it, would you promise me that it will be my decision in the end?"

JENNINGS: "I'm not personally comfortable with this, "but I'm your dad, "so I'm here to listen, first and foremost, "and I'd like to talk to you more about this before we make a final choice."

TANG: Okay.

Folks, let's move ahead.

Christine has made a decision.

She decides to keep the baby.

(laughter) Comes from a lot of prayer, Aaron.

TANG: Comes from lot of prayer.

- Thank you.

TANG: A month goes by.

Christine is now 16 weeks pregnant.

She and Alice tell you they're going out for a Saturday of shopping for the baby's nursery.

On the way, Alice makes an illegal U-turn.

She's pulled over by a police officer.

And when the police officer looks in the window, he sees it.

On the screen, the destination is the Fredonia Reproductive Healthcare Center.

(Jong-Fast exclaims softly) TANG: Governor Severino, what should your police officer do in that moment?

I'll remind you that you just signed a law making it a crime for an adult to transport a minor across state lines for an abortion without the parents' consent.

Okay.

Well, if there's probable cause that our laws have been broken, then that is grounds for an arrest.

So, we have to find out who's driving whom, to where, and for what purpose.

TANG: So, the officer should question these two girls?

Get, get more information, yes.

TANG: If he thinks it would be helpful to get more information, should he search the car?

Well, if you get permission.

The officer should ask, "May I search your car?"

And if these are young kids, they might say yes.

TANG: Do you think an 18-year-old would say... - They're likely to, going to say yes.

Out of free choice, or because they're scared?

- Well, when a police officer or person of authority asks to search, most often, young people say yes.

BULLOCK: I wasn't a very good damn lawyer, then, if I didn't train my daughter to say, "Forget it!"

(laughter) Everything's different when an officer's knocking on your window.

(Bullock chuckling) WOMAN: Yeah.

It sounds like, if the police officers have reason, you think they might need to arrest these girls.

SEVERINO: Well, it depends who.

It wouldn't be both.

TANG: Ah.

It would be whoever's doing the transporting.

TANG: Just one of the girls.

WOMAN: Oh, yeah.

TANG: The other girl would watch her friend be... - Poor kid.

WOMAN: Yeah.

- I want go to Brittany Packnett Cunningham, because one of the... Because I'm having a lot of reactions?

Because you were going to pass out if I didn't.

(laughter) CUNNINGHAM: I'd ask what kind of country we want to be.

That two teenagers are driving in a car, and simply because of the GPS destination, we are okay with people who derive their authority from the consent of the governed, and whose parents pay their salary through their tax dollars, if we're okay with this kind of engagement.

We're criminalizing young people who are just trying to make the best decisions for their lives.

That's a dangerous society to me.

TANG: The police officer does as Governor Severino suggests, questions the girls, and actually concludes there is no probable cause, no grounds to arrest these girls.

He lets them continue on.

They go to Fredonia, very shaken, and several hours later, they come home.

To your house, Steve and Molly.

(laughter) BULLOCK: I'm day-drinking.

This is not, this is not... TANG: Did you just say you're day-drinking?

- Yeah.

JONG-FAST: Yeah, this is... (laughter) This was not what we were hoping for.

TANG: You're at your kitchen table when the girls come in.

You can see they're really upset.

And they sit you down and they tell you the truth.

Alice says, "Mom, Dad, I have to tell you, "we didn't go shopping for the baby's nursery.

"We went to Fredonia "to the reproductive healthcare center.

"But not for an abortion.

- Oh.

TANG: "We went so that I, Alice, "could talk to a doctor about a surgery.

"Sterilization.

- Oh... TANG: "Permanent birth control.

- Huh.

TANG: "On the way, we were stopped by an officer.

"Intimidated, he made us let him look in the car.

"Of course, there was no crime, "but that's why we're upset and that's where we were.

I'm sorry I didn't tell you earlier."

Your minds must be racing.

What are you thinking?

JONG-FAST: I can tell her that IUDs are still legal for today.

And so, she doesn't need to get forced-sterilized.

There are birth control that works, that's effective, that's safe, and she should get it, and we... TANG: Your daughter stops you.

We got to move out of Middlevania right now.

We're moving... - We're going to Fredonia!

JONG-FAST: We're out, man!

TANG: Your daughter... Your daughter stops you.

And I love you guys, but we're not friends anymore, I'm sorry.

This is just too much for me.

TANG: Well, hold on!

What did they do?

Why are you not friends with them?

Because she's so traumatized, because she's got, you know... TANG: No.

- ...she wants to be sterilized because her friend... TANG: Your daughter says this does not have anything to do with Christine-- "I'm happy for Christine.

"Christine's happy with her choice.

"This is about something very different, Mom-- look around.

"I'm not in control of my body anymore.

"If I was like Christine, it would be fine."

- But, but, "And this was just a consultation?"

TANG: "This was just a consultation.

I can't get this procedure..." BULLOCK: Yeah, and, and, "Honey, "I get it.

JONG-FAST: Yeah.

"I get that you truly feel that you are not "in control of your body, "but you're not going to be living necessarily in Middlevania forever."

JONG-FAST: In fact, not for long at all.

BULLOCK: Yeah.

(laughter) TANG: Hold on, hold on a second, I'm sorry, hold on.

I have to ask, when it was Christine's body and her choice, at the very beginning, it sounded like you were saying, "Christine's body... Right.

TANG: ...her choice."

- Yeah.

TANG: Now it's your daughter.

You don't want her to have the choice, this same...?

JONG-FAST: First of all, sterilizing, it's a, it's a permanent thing.

I don't know how often people are self-sterilized.

I haven't heard of it as a common practice.

I wonder if we could ask.

TANG: Let's find out.

JONG-FAST: Yeah.

BULLOCK: Do we have any experts here, huh?

(laughter) GUNTER: Well, when any patient comes in and they want to have a surgery, you always want to talk about the risks and benefits, and also the other options.

And so, when someone comes in and requests a tubal ligation, surgical sterilization, we would go through the whole list of highly reliable reversible contraception.

TANG: What if Alice said to you, "That all sounds great, Doc, but "I'm not so sure in five or ten years, "I'll be able to come to Fredonia for IUDs.

"I don't want to take any chances.

I'm confident this is what I want, sterilization."

What would you say to her?

I would say, you know, "You, sounds like "you've thought about it a lot.

"I absolutely respect your choice.

"Just make sure, you know, between the time "and the time we've picked for the surgery, that you've really thought it over."

TANG: You'd talk about the alternatives.

Yeah, all the alternatives... TANG: Would you have had the same conversation about alternatives with Christine-- about adoption, providing support from family members, other organizations, the other options to abortion?

So, within the framework of coming in for an abortion, someone has decided they do not want to be pregnant.

Okay, here are the ways... - I see.

GUNTER: ...you can not be pregnant.

You want contraception?

Here are the ways you can have contraception.

But I would never say to someone coming in for contraception, "Oh, you don't need that."

TANG: I see.

- So... TANG: Dr.

Wynia, you live here in Middlevania, as well.

You also are a medical ethicist.

My question for you is about the ethics.

Is it the same, when Christine comes and asks for an abortion, is it her body, therefore her decision?

And so, if Alice comes for a sterilization, it is her body, her decision.

- I mean, it's, it's similar in some ways.

The thing that, in the scenario, that has struck me the most is that when Christine came, she actually was not really sure what she wanted to do.

Yes.

WYNIA: Right?

As reflected in her eventual choice.

What I'm hearing from Alice is that she's pretty committed to this, and that does change the, right?

In, in medicine, we, as, as Dr.

Gunter has said, we spend a lot of time trying to suss out, what is the level of commitment to this decision?

And it's really important, if you're going to have an abortion, that you know for sure that that's what you want to do.

You do not want to have an abortion, you know, and then regret it later.

You also don't want to get sterilized and then regret it later.

GUNTER: Can I just add?

TANG: Yes.

We have these discussions all the time with every surgery, and whether you're doing an abortion, whether you're doing a tubal ligation, you know, it's the same-- you talk about the risks, the benefits, the alternatives, and then, if that's what the patient wants, you go ahead with the procedure.

TANG: Andrea Picciotti-Bayer, you have a strong connection with Alice.

Are you worried about Alice, that she's considering this serious decision?

Well, I'm worried about everyone here, right?

I mean, because I'm hearing stuff that's scaring me.

But she is 18.

So, I would really doubt the fact that she's 100% convinced... JONG-FAST: Right.

- ...that this is the greatest place for her to go in her life.

And I think you guys noted that, too.

Do you agree with that, Molly?

I mean, I think there's sort of a false binary here, especially because there isn't... You know, sterilization is not a regular treatment.

I mean, there's just not... You know, this is not something people do regularly, so... GUNTER: In my experience, which is pretty extensive, when people come in and they say they want a tubal ligation, they're usually sure, and the incidence of post-tubal ligation regret's actually really quite low.

Yeah.

- But are 18-year-olds coming into your practice and saying, "I want a tubal ligation because now the state "is no longer going to allow me to have control over my body forever?"

- Probably.

GUNTER: So, I think there's been, there has been a change, with more people since the change in political climate.

JONG-FAST: Yeah.

- So, what was once an abstract has now become personal.

JONG-FAST: Mm-hmm.

GUNTER: And people are saying, "I need to make the choices that I want, because that choice may not be available to me down the road."

TANG: Is this hard for you, Steve, or... BULLOCK: It is hard for me.

And it's also the perspective of an 18-year-old that's saying, "Things will never get better."

Like, "The existing climate that we're in is what I'm going to have to live the rest of my life in," which I fundamentally don't believe.

So, we would want to have a lot of discussions with her... TANG: Yes, yes.

- ...of saying that this... TANG: Yes.

- There are other options here.

TANG: Governor Severino, do you think your state should make it harder for Alice to go to Fredonia to get a sterilization?

Should we take that choice away from an 18-year-old girl?

So, one, we protect all of our citizens in the State of Middlevania, and we recognize every human life from conception.

That is a distinction that is different... TANG: Huh.

- ...from, what about preventing the conception from ever happening?

There's quite a different moral valence... TANG: Okay.

- ...in one circumstance versus the other.

TANG: Okay.

- As I said earlier, there are two patients in every pregnancy.

So, you wouldn't move legislation to stop Alice from doing this.

- No.

TANG: Okay.

I'm happy she has that right still.

TANG: Ah, ah.

- (chuckling) Congratulations, Alice.

TANG: So, that, but that's significant.

BULLOCK: You got one right, Alice.

JONG-FAST: Yeah, yeah.

TANG: Okay, our next dilemma is for Roger Severino and Steve Bullock.

And this one involves a twist.

The two of you are not just prominent Middlevanians, you're also brothers.

(laughter) CUNNINGHAM: That's a wild family.

(laughter) It's complicated.

TANG: It's complicated.

Adopted!

MAN: It's a small state.

I am pro-adoption.

Pro-adoption, okay!

Consensus!

(laughter) Yes.

TANG: So you're brothers, and your dad, Bert, has invited you over for brunch.

And the three of you are sitting down when Bert lets out a sigh and says, "I'm sorry, I've got bad news.

"The cancer is back, and it's spread.

"I've got less than six months to live.

"But at the end, when I'm scared, I want to be able to control how I go out on my own terms."

Roger, Steve, talk to each other about this awful news.

Well, Dad has been there for us through thick and thin.

I mean, he changed our diapers.

And I know he's suffering terribly, but I hope if I face the same thing, you'd recognize that every life is valuable up until the last moment and our last breath.

BULLOCK: There's part of me that wants Dad to fight like hell, but do we really want the last six months of Dad's life of just being emaciated and ill, or can he have those freedoms?

TANG: Just to be clear, Fredonia has what's called a Death With Dignity Act.

Middlevania doesn't.

Under that law, I can go and meet with a doctor in Fredonia, show them I'm of sound mind, wait a week, come back, and they will prescribe me drugs that, if I feel I have to, I can take them at the very end to go out on my own terms.

What do you think, Roger?

Most people who choose assisted suicide, it's not because they have extreme pain, it's because they think they're going to be a burden to others, and they lose autonomy.

And we're going to be there every step, so that when that moment comes, we'll be holding your hand.

TANG: Your dad says, "Here's what I'm asking, Roger.

"Here's what I'm asking, Steve.

"I have an appointment in Fredonia in two days "to see a doctor to talk about this option.

"I can't make it there myself, "I'm too weak-- I need your help.

"I'm asking, will you please drive me, help me get there?

Is that something you can do?"

- "I would, Dad, think "as much as you can about the consequences "and the alternatives.

"There are so many issues involved.

"There's a law, what's legal, what isn't.

Once you cross that line, there's no turning back."

TANG: "Son, I, you know I've always admired your conviction.

"I know we see this differently.

Would you drive with me?"

- "I love you.

And because I love you, I cannot."

TANG: "Steve, would you drive with me?"

"We're going to grab a six-pack and we're going."

(laughter) No, but, but, but yes, yes, I would.

And like, look, at the end of the day, even though my brother and I see things differently, I guess I would want to have a conversation with my brother to say that Dad expects or deserves better from us, and we should actually both go with him.

SEVERINO: Let's, let's be clear what he's, we're talking about.

He's talking about destroying himself.

We should be very clear.

There is no turning back and that's going to be on us.

- And that's what I would say to Dad even before.

I'm not, like, "Hey, Dad, go do this."

To be clear, assisted suicide is a crime in just about every jurisdiction in America today, because the American people stand for life.

TANG: Would you make it a crime for a person, like Steve, to take his terminally sick father, less than six months with cancer, to drive across state lines for medical aid in dying?

Well, I cannot simply say, "I'm doing this just for my dad."

I have to think about the people of Middlevania.

We have laws in our state that protect against elder abuse.

We have laws in this state to protect against people taking advantage of somebody who's older and say, "Put me in your will."

That same dynamic occurs with assisted suicide.

Your interest may be pure.

In your head, you're acting morally.

Others could have far more nefarious motives.

And we have to account... TANG: And... SEVERINO: When we're passing laws... TANG: Would that... ...we have to account for the bad actors, not just for the pure of heart.

BULLOCK: And, and... Let's be clear, like, I hope Dad doesn't do it.

And I want Dad to fight like hell to the minute he dies.

But I think that those states that actually have assisted suicide laws go through a lot of checks where it's not coercion.

And I want Dad to have that respect in his last six months.

We owe it to him.

TANG: Your dad says, "Thank you."

A week goes by.

Christine is now 21 weeks pregnant, but one Saturday afternoon, when the girls are at Alice's house studying, tragedy strikes.

Molly, you are sitting on the couch reading when your daughter Alice calls out.

"Mom, something's wrong with Christine!

Help!"

(quietly): Oh, my God.

TANG: You rush over.

You find Christine pale, scared, in the bathroom, and she says, "Molly, I felt something pop.

(Jong-Fast exclaims softly) - "I think I'm leaking.

"Is it my water?

Isn't it way too soon for that?

What should I do?

Help me, Molly."

What do you do?

- Call an ambulance, get her to the hospital.

Get her, you know... I mean, call, obviously, call the parents first, but... You know, I think I would call 911, and then the parents.

Call the ambulance first.

You call the ambulance first.

But would you call Andrea?

Yeah, of course.

Of course.

I'd say, you know, "Your daughter's at my house.

"This is what happened.

We put her in an ambulance.

"She's on her way to the hospital.

This is where she's going."

TANG: When you get there, the doctor says, "I'm so sorry, Christine has "pre-term premature rupture of membranes.

"She's 21 weeks pregnant.

"It's a very serious condition.

"She is fine right now, "but she will develop an infection.

"And she will face a risk of organ damage, loss of reproductive function, and death."

You have a great doctor, and she says to you, "Two paths: "Induce labor now or wait and see.

"If you induce labor now, Christine will be safe.

"But at this early stage, 21 weeks, "I'm sorry to tell you that the baby would die.

"But if she can hold on for two more weeks, to 23 weeks, "the baby would have a chance to survive, with real risks of developmental impairment."

But there's a catch.

In Middlevania, as you know, abortion is illegal.

Which means, "Our hospital "cannot provide induced labor now.

"And so I'm so sorry to tell you that our only option is "to send you and Christine home, to discharge her and have you bring her back when she gets worse."

Dr.

Gunter.

- Mm-hmm.

TANG: Is this tragic scene something that you and your fellow OB/GYNs have seen play out in states where abortion is illegal, like Middlevania?

- Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, premature rupture of membranes happens.

And in a state where abortion is illegal, people have to wait it out.

And some people get infections, and some people get very sick, and some people are at the point where death is basically coming in and unhooking the I.V., because nobody has determined how sick somebody must be before we can intervene.

TANG: Governor Severino, you are aware of difficult pregnancy stories like Christine's, and you're also aware that part of the problem here in Middlevania is that abortion is illegal except "where necessary for preservation of the mother's life."

The doctors are saying it is not now necessary for preservation of the mother's life.

Christine is healthy.

She could make it days, a week, two weeks.

I'm wondering if you would support a change to Middlevania's law to make sure that in this rare and extreme circumstance, induced labor would be available to a patient like Christine.

- Well, you made a very clear distinction.

You said, "Induced labor."

You did not say the word "abortion."

GUNTER: As somebody who has done abortions and done induced labor, they're just different ways to say the same thing.

We can do an abortion by inducing labor and we can do an abortion with a procedure, but they're both abortions.

When do you stop the baby's heartbeat?

Well, are we talk-- we're talking about a fetus.

Say 21 weeks-- they, they have a heartbeat.

GUNTER: So, I mean, in this situation, almost always, the fetus is born dead.

TANG: Governor Severino, just to clarify.

Would you support an exception to make this option of induced labor available to Christine?

- If, if there is a duty that follows to do everything reasonable... TANG: Sure.

SEVERINO: ...to save that child's life, you don't just discard it, you don't just treat it as waste, it is actually... TANG: Okay.

SEVERINO (exhales): ...merits medical care.

If I may?

TANG: I want to go to Andrea here.

I just wanted to say one thing, Aaron, in, in talking about this tragic situation our daughter and our grandchild is facing.

You raised two issues related to health.

One was Christine's health, and how our grandchild would be if the child was able to be born at 22, 23 weeks.

And you, you mentioned, I can't remember the exact phrasing, but, like, significant disability.

Chance of impairment.

PICCIOTTI-BAYER: Right.

I just want to say, in our home, every child will be loved regardless of their disabilities, their strengths, their incapacities, or the need that they have.

Thank you.

Brittany.

I struggle with the splitting of hairs and words, because this is actually not hypothetical for me, and my podcast audience knows this.

My water broke at the end of my 22nd week.

I woke my husband up in the middle of the night and I said, "I think something's wrong."

It turned out that the leak was about to be a full rupture, and I was going to have to be hospitalized until my son was born unless I chose to terminate the pregnancy, because we were in Washington, D.C., and 24 weeks is viability outside of the womb.

So I had a choice to make.

Through a lot of prayer, through a lot of conversation with my husband, we chose to give birth, and my son is doing beautifully now.

He's, turns four in about a month, and if he were here, he'd tell you exactly what kind of birthday party he wants.

(applause) And my podcast audience also knows about my great-great-great-great- grandmother named Joanna.

Joanna was born enslaved.

From everything we know about Joanna's life, she was forced to bear children when she was a minor.

24 children.

I am grateful to her that I am her progeny.

But the truth is, I have to ask myself if Joanna wanted 24 children, how her body reacted to having 24 children and doing the backbreaking labor of building this country.

And so I took the question that the doctor asked me at 22 weeks deeply seriously.

So for me, the conversation about induced labor versus an abortion, all of that to me means that nobody around this table should have a say on what I end up doing with my body.

(applause) TANG: In this hospital, Christine doesn't have this choice.

Unless, suppose you had a car and you knew that, if she could go to Fredonia, you could take her.

She would have this choice to induce labor now, if she wanted.

Would you talk to Christine's parents, Christine, about that?

I would.

I would want to make sure that my friend had the ability to make whatever choice she felt like was best for her and her child.

And what's the risk if you go home?

Are you talking about one-percent chance or a 99% chance, or somewhere in the middle?

- Chance of...?

The worst-case scenario here.

Well, I personally had ruptured membranes at 21-and-a-half weeks.

And I happened to make it to 26 weeks.

Well, it's a different situation.

I delivered, I was pregnant with triplets, and I had the choice to deliver my first son at 22-and-a-half weeks.

We had the choice to not resuscitate and he passed away.

And then I was able to stay pregnant for another two-and-a-half weeks, three-and-a-half weeks, and made it to 26 weeks, where I got sepsis and needed to be delivered.

So I kind of understand it personally and professionally... - Yeah.

GUNTER: ...better than most people, but there was a lot of choice involved.

SEVERINO: And, and one point legally... - And I'd like to offer something.

TANG: Yes.

Yes.

- In the State of Middlevania, like every other pro-life state in the country that has any protections for unborn life in the question of abortion, if the life of the mother is at risk, then you can induce labor.

- Mm-hmm.

SEVERINO: So the question we've been talking about is, how do you determine the risk to the life of the mother?

And so that's always been, in every pro-life state, an option.

But pregnancy is not perfect.

About 30% of pregnancies, you could have stillbirth or miscarriage.

That's a high percentage.

That's not, like, one percent or two percent.

So that's crisis that happens.

Andrea?

Yeah, I, I want to push back a little bit.

I think every pregnancy is perfect, even a pregnancy that doesn't end in, in the birth of a live baby.

Is it perfect if a woman dies?

That's not perfect if a woman dies, and we know and have knowledge that she could die.

JENNINGS: My personal view is, I'm satisfied with Middlevania's law, and I'm also satisfied with the doctor's advice that going home and monitoring it extremely closely seems like a reasonable course of action here-- that's... Absolutely, and we're very serious about working with her doctor and with the hospital to be as informed as we can as she's progressing, and hopefully gaining the weeks that doctor over here was able to gain and, and be able to see her child born safely.

TANG: Okay-- Christine makes it two more weeks.

She's now 23 weeks pregnant.

But the next night, Christine wakes up, chills, a fever.

You rush her to the hospital.

It is the longest hours of your life.

But at the end of it, Christine survives.

The baby survives, too.

You have a new member of your family, a granddaughter.

- (whispers): Darn right.

TANG: We've now talked about several difficult life-and-death decisions.

We have one more hard decision to talk about.

Dr.

Gunter, we talked earlier about a woman's right, in your view, to have an abortion early in pregnancy.

I'm wondering if there is a point in time in pregnancy, with a healthy mother and a healthy fetus, when you think it's no longer permissible, morally wrong, for the woman to choose an abortion.

- Yeah, no, I think people have choice in all matters.

I am a firm believer in choice, but this fictional scenario of people coming in at 36 weeks or whatever, wanting to have an abortion, just doesn't happen.

TANG: Okay.

SEVERINO: Then if you outlaw it, it doesn't change a thing.

I believe that people deserve choice through their whole pregnancy.

And so I have a huge moral problem, because that that young girl who's 32 weeks pregnant, who was raped by her brother, who couldn't get permission to get the abortion until she was 32 weeks, because she had to get... She had to be made a ward of the state, and then the state had to find a way to get her to a state where she could have it, that's why I believe it, because no young girl should be forced to have a pregnan, a delivery when she was raped by her brother.

TANG: Dr.

Wynia.

I would much rather not have the state involved in these decisions at all.

They are not decisions that are amenable to law, because laws are blunt instruments, and medical decision-making is not blunt.

It is nuanced.

It is detailed.

It is individualized.

It's a terrible idea to write a law about a medical practice of whatever sort, because you are never going to be able to capture the, the challenging circumstances of actually talking through these types of decisions with individual patients.

TANG: Andrea.

There are a couple of things that have been raised in here, hard questions, the hard cases.

Right?

The, the incest, the abuse, the homelessness, the addictions.

None of those are solved with abortion.

With regard to life, though, is the child along the way one that deserves to be brought into this world or is the child not wanted?

And I do think that there are ethical questions that we all need to kind of think a little bit about, that issue of wantedness.

GOODWIN: So let me share this, because we are all neighbors.

When I was 12, I had an abortion.

Starting on my tenth birthday was the sexual assault that I experienced from my father.

I went temporarily blind at the age of ten because of what I was experiencing.

Could I have had the life that I have now by carrying a pregnancy to term than by having an abortion?

What we know is that only two percent of girls who experience teen pregnancy-- I wasn't even a teenager yet-- even graduate from high school.

We know that they are destined to lives of poverty.

I was born from a poor family.

My mom was an orphan from Colombia, not educated, and didn't even get past elementary, and she faced very difficult financial circumstances with my dad.

Abortion was and still is legal in California.

And she faced pressure to abort me.

And I'm here because she said no to those pressures.

And the financial pressures are there, but the law allowed it.

It made it culturally acceptable.

Whatever we can do that makes abortion rarer, we should as a society come together to do that.

TANG: So here's the final question.

How should we think about freedom and the role of our government in the hard life-and-death choices we all face?

PICCIOTTI-BAYER: We need to start thinking about it.

And we can't think that the government is going to give us the answers.

These are questions that are happening around kitchen tables, around school cafeterias, in classrooms, in doctors' offices.

We need to start figuring out that this is something that all of us care about.

CUNNINGHAM: Some of us have been thinking about it our whole lives.

Because our people have never had it.

Those people can be Indigenous, Black, women, trans folks, children, who often aren't even counted in these conversations.

Some of us have been thinking about freedom forever.

And what we have been convinced of.

unfortunately, is that this country seems to be determined to answer us in the negative.

And so, yes, we need to decide if we're going to take freedom seriously.

And I'm hoping that some people catch up to recognizing that the answer being yes means letting go of the attempts to try to control other people.

(applause) Well, my views are, A, um... We're all, we're going to have some disagreements about the nature of freedom.

Who grants it to us?

Who gives us our rights?

Some people will always believe that our rights are derived from government.

I happen to believe our rights are derived from God.

And I think when you have a faith system that teaches you where your rights come from, or what immutable traits or immutable truths are, you're inevitably going to have some disagreements with your fellow citizens.

Why are we free?

- Mm.

JENNINGS: And it's not because government or a piece of paper told us we are, it's because we're all God's children.

That's my personal view.

GUNTER: It's really interesting to have these conversations about freedom, because in Canada, there is no abortion law.

It is not legal.

It is not illegal.

And it turns out that works just fine, that the abortion rate is not higher.

It turns out that not having a law works great.

Isn't that the definition of freedom?

Not having a law?

SEVERINO: Well, it comes down to, who counts?

Who counts under our laws?

When we think about something like abortion, my contention is that life is precious, and the circumstances, which may be horrible in some cases-- we have to have compassion and help those in those difficult situations-- but we don't create more victims, and it starts by recognizing that every human person deserves that shot at life.

BULLOCK: Look, I think difficult decisions, many of them-- we've had these heart-wrenching decisions-- shouldn't be made by the government.

Should be made by the woman in consultation with her family, her faith, if she so chooses.

My freedom and your freedom may be different.

I don't think it's government that grants it, but I think the government has to protect it.

TANG: And with that, we bid farewell to Middlevania until the next time.

(applause) ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

ANNOUNCER: For more about "Breaking the Deadlock," visit us at pbs.org/deadlock.

"Breaking the Deadlock" is available on Amazon Prime Video.