Ask This Old House

Kevin

Today on "Ask This Old House"...

Mark

This fireplace outside of Chicago was built without a mantel. I'll fix that. I can see that the stone is at least 8 inches thick, so that's gonna give us the support that we're gonna need for a new mantel.

Ross

Moving into a house that's been smoked in for many, many years may not only be tough to clean but might be bad for your health. We'll explain.

Kevin

And what is this gonna set Adam back?

Mauro

Adam is gonna have a heart attack.

Laughter

Kevin

Smoking kills.

Mauro

For a job like this, I would say it's about...

Heath

And to control all the lights in this kitchen, you have to hit this switch... and this switch... and this switch... and this one. I'll fix that.

Kevin

Hi, there. I'm Kevin O'Connor. And welcome back to "Ask This Old House," where if you've got a question about your house, we'd love to hear from you because we have got the experts with the answer. Hey. Good morning,

Tommy. Tom

Hey, Kevin, how are you?

Kevin

Good. Did you get that e-mail from the guy who's thinking about buying the house but he's worried because the previous owner smoked for like 30 years and it stinks and he doesn't know what to do?

Tom

Yeah, well, that's a problem, and I know Ross and Mauro are working on that.

They've got a solution. Kevin

Nothing for me?

I got nothing. Kevin

All right. Well, we got someone on it. Ross, you got that one?

Ross

Yeah. So, Mauro and I got it under control. It's a thing called thirdhand smoke.

Kevin

Really?

Thirdhand. Ross

Yep, and so it's potentially harmful to our health, and we're gonna work on it.

Kevin

It's not just a nuisance, huh?

Ross

Not just a nuisance smell, yeah.

Kevin

Get on it. Thank you. Hey, Richard.

Hey. Kevin

What are you working on?

Richard

You know, when I always go to the trade shows, look for new products to show, and this thing caught my eye. You know, it's a faucet, but it has a little thing on it here.

It's a bubbler. Kevin

Oh. Cool! Look at that! You do know that up here we're the only ones who say "bubbler"? Really?

Kevin

Everyone else says water fountain, but, anyway, that's very cool.

Richard

It's pretty handy for brushing your teeth. You know, you're gonna save using a Dixie Cup. And it makes a lot of sense. It's about 500 bucks.

Yep. Richard

Not too bad.

Kevin

And, of course, in my household, my kids would immediately put their finger on it and... Oh. Look out. Stop!

Laughing

Kevin

That's exactly what they would do!

Margaret

Hi, Mark. Welcome to Chicago.

Mark

Well, thank you very much. I love the neighborhood. So, when I was coming in, I saw a mix of Colonials, Tudors, mainly contemporary houses like this one.

Margaret

Right? It's -- It's a great neighborhood. We've lived in this neighborhood 25 years. We moved from our traditional house

from just down the street... Mark

Okay.

Margaret

...to this house that we've always loved...

Wow. Margaret

...this contemporary.

We love it. Mark

Right. And you wrote me about a mantel?

Margaret

I did.

Mark

All right. Well, let's take a look.

Okay. Let's go. Mark

All right. All right. This is the contemporary.

I love the openness. Margaret

It is. It's a wonderful house. This is the fireplace.

Okay. Margaret

We love it. The last two Christmases, we've really realized we miss the mantel from our other house, and on that mantel we used to keep all our stocking holders with our stockings on it, and we've had those for years, so it'd be nice to have a mantel.

Okay. Margaret

Yeah.

Mark

In a 1980s contemporary house, it wouldn't be unusual to have a mantel, and it wouldn't be unusual not to have a mantel. In this particular case, if we put a mantel in, it would look like it's supposed to look, but as I look at this fireplace, it's nice and flat, which is a great start. I'm looking at the thickness of the fireplace. I can see that the stone is at least 8 inches thick, so that's gonna give us the support that we're gonna need for a new mantel, and I think I have one out in the truck, actually.

Margaret

Oh,

that's wonderful. Mark

Let's go check it out. All right. Look what we have.

Margaret

Oh, it looks wonderful.

Mark

Isn't this nice? I got it out of a company from Ohio. Beautiful red oak. I had it finished to match all your finish inside.

But look at the key component. Margaret

It's hollow!

Mark

Hollow. So, the reason we love a hollow mantel is because it's going to allow us for easy application. Why don't we get started?

Margaret

Great.

Mark

All right. So, because we don't have any way of mounting the mantel onto the stonework, what I've done is I've made up a cleat, and all it is, is a couple 2x4s nailed together, and it's gonna help me mount the mantel. So, the first thing I want to do is establish the height. Mantels I usually set around 54 inches, which puts me into this area right here. So, unfortunately I have a bump right in my zone, so we're either gonna have to go a little lower or a little higher.

Margaret

I think I'd like it a little higher just because it's such a big fireplace.

Mark

Okay, great. So we'll end up somewhere in this area. But the first thing we have to do is find center of the stonework, so if you wouldn't mind going over there and holding my tape. You're gonna want to be flush with the outside stone. Okay, we're looking like we have about 76 inches, which will give us a center of 38, which is right here. I've already marked the center of my cleat. We're gonna match it up with the center of our stone. There. Hold it securely 'cause I'm gonna put a level on it, which is very important. Looks like I have to come up. Hold steady. Looking good right there. Now what we need to do is find some areas to drill our bolts. What I'm looking for is a mortar joint, preferably in between two stones, and I'll drill right through that. So I want to mark my 2x4 in between those two stones like that. And now I'm gonna come over. I see a stone. I see a stone. There's a mortar joint. So I'd like to go right in between those. So, now I'm looking for, again, two stones here and here. There's my mortar joint, so I'm gonna try to drive into that cavity. All right. So, what I've done... is I prepped our cleat for the stone. I've drilled our holes. And the back of the cleat I hogged out just so it can take some of the depth of the stone that's jumping out into our profile. And we're going to attach it with a wedge anchor. You see, when I torque down the bolt, this anchor is going to expand. That's gonna lock us into the stone so the mantel doesn't tip out or fall out.

Good. Mark

All right? So, let's put this up. All right. Put the drill right into the pilot hole. Start the drill off slow but go in. You'll know when you hit the stone.

Margaret

Okay.

Whirring

Mark

Try it again.

Pull. Margaret

Pull?

Mark

Pull the trigger.

Whirring

Mark

Keep going. Push. Keep going. Pull it out.

All right. Nicely done. Margaret

Very cool.

Mark

All right. All right. Now come in and give me some taps on that bolt.

Okay. Mark

Just easy taps until you get through that wood.

Okay. Now you go in first. Margaret

Okay.

Mark

And all it is, is gonna slip right in. Walk it in. So, now all we have to do is attach the mantel to the cleat, and we're gonna do that using brass screws and brass grommets on our prefinished mantel. All right, Margaret. You needed a place to hang the stockings. What do you think?

Margaret

Oh, it looks great.

Mark

Nice. It's a little too early for Christmas, but, uh, is it ever?

Margaret

Nah, it's never too early.

Mark

Right.

Margaret

And, really, they look great. And when we do have Christmas, we'll have family over. We can hang all our stockings up.

Mark

Mm-hmm. I love it. I love it.

Margaret

Yeah, and, so, I'm so glad you came to Chicago.

Mark

Thank you for having me out. I had a ball today.

Kevin

Nice job,

Mark. Mark

Thank you.

Kevin

So, just a couple questions for you.

Sure. Kevin

Why did you deliberately drill through the mortar and not the stone? I would think the stone would be more solid than the mortar.

Mark

Sure. So, I assess every situation as soon as I walk in. The first thing I noticed about that job was the stone. Although it was nice and thick, 8 to 10 inches, which I like, it was very brittle, so that's why I made the decision to go in between the stones and hit the joints.

Kevin

Had it been beefy stone or brick or something like that, could you have gone right into it? And would you have gone into it?

Mark

I definitely would have. New England has great stone for application, so something around here we definitely would have drilled right into.

Kevin

Got you. And in that case, you had a hollow back, but sometimes people got an old piece of wood, antique piece of wood, a beam or something that's solid.

Mark

Right.

Kevin

In that case, what do you recommend?

Mark

In that case, I always love a post. My post can be rerod. A post can be a lead pipe.

Kevin

Oh.

Mark

Before we touch the pipe, what we're gonna want to do is throw epoxy into that hole. That's gonna secure the pipe.

Kevin

Drill in with a big bit right there, fill with epoxy.

Mark

Right. So, over-drill, fill with epoxy, take your post.

Yep. Mark

Put your post in. It'll get nice and snug right away.

Got you. Mark

All right.

Add epoxy to this end. Kevin

Yep.

Mark

And then just apply my mantel.

Epoxy to epoxy. Mark

Push it in. Hold it for a second. It sets right up.

Kevin

All right. And you brought us

a nice little demonstration. Mark

Sure.

Kevin

So, in this case, we're talking post down the length of whatever solid piece of wood.

Yep. Kevin

The drilling in the back. And then you would just sort of carefully epoxy, push that in, and you're sort of in the same situation.

Exactly. Kevin

Very nice. All right. Good. Great information. And I'll tell you what. Looks like you made her day.

Mark

Oh, we had a ball over there. She was great.

Nice job. Mark

All right. Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin

Hey,

guys. Mauro

Hey, Kevin.

Kevin

This is so -- Oh, thank you. We're working on Adam's question?

Ross

Yeah, we were just talking about it.

Kevin

So, Mauro, you heard this, right? Adam's thinking about buying a house. He's got two small children, and the previous owner smoked for like 30 years. It smells. He's worried, you know? Can he fix it? Does he have any risks? Ross was saying earlier that he might. Are you familiar with this situation?

Mauro

I have done projects like this before.

Kevin

You have?

Mauro

And, honestly, I'm not looking forward to doing it again.

Kevin

Why? What is involved?

Mauro

Oh, you're gonna be dealing with a lot of strong odors and then staining walls, and it's a lot of work to clean up. We started by top to bottom, all surface. We're gonna scrub everything with the TSP solution. And then everything is done, clean.

Kevin

Wait. Wait. All surfaces?

Mauro

All surfaces.

Kevin

So TSP, ceilings, walls, floor.

Mauro

Walls, doors, windows, floors, baseboards.

Ay yi yi. Mauro

The whole thing.

Okay. Mauro

Don't skip any spot. So, after everything is right, we'll come back, you know, five days later with a -- We're gonna use two coats of primer, an alcohol-based primer.

Kevin

Never even heard of an alcohol-based primer. What does that do for us?

Mauro

Well, it's less impermeable

than traditional primer. Kevin

Really?

Mauro

It makes everything bridge back again.

Kevin

So less permeable is a way of sort of trying to encapsulate those surfaces and then put the paint on top of it?

Mauro

Yes, and then put two coats of paint on top of it.

Oh. Mauro

And it's ready to go.

Kevin

And what is this gonna set Adam back?

Mauro

Adam is gonna have a heart attack.

Laughter

Kevin

Smoking kills.

Mauro

For a job like this, I would say it's about $25,000.

Kevin

Oh,

my goodness. Mauro

Yes.

Kevin

Really?

Mauro

Kevin, it's the tremendous amount of work to get to this, to clean this up.

Kevin

Okay. So that's tough news. And, so, what is the science behind this?

Ross

Yeah, so, I think it helps to define, So, there are really three different kinds of smoke, right? You've got firsthand smoke. I think most people are familiar with. That's the person who's smoking a cigarette or cigar. Secondhand smoke is a person who's in close vicinity to the person who's smoking. Thirdhand smoke -- that's the new one. That's been studied right now for the last 10 to 15 years from the scientific community. And what that really is, is the chemical residue that's left behind from the smoke.

Kevin

What are the chemicals generally? Do you know?

Ross

We're talking about nicotine, we're talking about tar, and a whole host of other harmful chemicals.

Kevin

Left behind, meaning they're physically left on the surfaces in this house.

Ross

Yeah, so, think of the smoke and think of it leaving behind this residue that gets deposited on all the surfaces of a building.

Kevin

Yep.

Ross

And think about that those chemicals get absorbed into the actual porous materials of the building.

Kevin

Oh. Porous, meaning...

Ross

So think of everything -- wood, drywall, your flooring, your carpeting, your upholstery, your furniture, everything.

Kevin

Insulation?

Ross

Insulation behind the drywall, so it gets absorbed into everything, and so if you've got, in Adam's case, someone smoking for 30-plus years in that building, it's gonna get actively absorbed into everything, and then what it tries to do is equalize, so it tries to evaporate back into the indoor air.

Kevin

So, after, let's say, 30 years in this case, are you suggesting that cleaning is no longer sufficient? Because that sounds like it's a surface treatment.

Yeah. Kevin

So what do you do then?

Ross

In a long-term -- You know, the experts say you have to remove all those materials.

Kevin

Come on!

Ross

I mean, it's -- For Adam's case, it would be a gut rehab.

It'd be crazy. Kevin

Oh, my gosh.

Ross

Yeah, it'd make $25,000 look cheap.

Mauro

So that goes through the AC vents and electrical outlets. Goes all behind the walls and stuff, right?

Ross

People think that after we clean the surfaces, running the fans, opening the windows, putting in new air filters, that's gonna solve it. Thirdhand smoke is a different animal. It's getting absorbed into the actual porous materials of the building.

Kevin

So, you say this is new information. And how good is the science? And who's getting harmed by this? Like, how legit is this whole thing?

Ross

Yeah, so, it's only been studied for the last 10, 15 years, like I said, and, you know, with kids, it's -- they're at the highest risk. They have developing bodies, and what the scientists have found is that it can get through the skin. So just like a nicotine patch for someone that's trying to wean off of cigarettes...

Kevin

They found this in kids who have been exposed to the thirdhand smoke?

Ross

Thirdhand smoke, yeah. So, there's been a study that looked at kids exposed to secondhand smoke and kids exposed to thirdhand smoke, and they both had similar levels of nicotine in their urine, right? So the kids were crawling around in the upholstery and, you know, the floors, carpeting, so it's getting absorbed, and all those chemicals we're talking about get absorbed into their skin.

Kevin

All right. So, who's going to notify Adam?

Laughs

Mauro

I'm not.

Kevin

You know what? Bad news for Adam. But I guess better to know than not to know. And he can make the proper decision.

Yeah. Yeah. Kevin

Wow. You guys did your homework. Thank you.

Mauro

You're welcome.

Heath

Thanks for having me over.

Cathie

Thanks for coming, Heath. Let me show you the lighting in the kitchen.

Heath

All right.

Cathie

We have six different lights here in the kitchen. I like the configuration of it, but the switch is a little bit weird. So, this one here controls two.

Heath

Okay.

Cathie

Then, I have another switch here. This one controls one.

All right. Cathie

This one has one.

Heath

That does another one.

Cathie

And, then, a final switch here... controls the last two.

Heath

That is a lot of switches for six lights.

Cathie

Yeah, I can appreciate each one having its own control, but it can get a little excessive.

Heath

Sure. It's nice having them broken up so you can control them individually, but at the same time, I'm sure you want to be able to turn them all on or all off, especially if you're going to bed and you want to leave the room. You don't want to go back and forth

and turn multiple switches off. Cathie

Oh, absolutely, especially when I'm going to bed. It's always that one over there I always forget.

Heath

It's always the furthest one away. Yeah, always. Okay, well, I think I have a good solution for this. I think we can replace the switches, keep the local control like you have, and still give you the ability to turn everything all on or all off, especially when you leave the room.

Cathie

All right. Great. Sounds fantastic.

Heath

Let me grab some tools. All right, Cathy. So, I've turned the power off. I've taken the switches out to take a look and see how they're wired. They are wired like we thought they are. Single-pole switches. And what that means is, one switch is gonna control either a single light or a group of lights. In a room like this, we typically want to have a three-way, which means we'd have a switch on this end and a switch on the other end when you leave the room to control the group of lights. You can turn it on and off

in either location. Cathie

Okay.

Heath

We can still wire for that. We can still put a wire through the basement, go from one switch to the other switch and get that into place, but the problem is, you have a finished basement, and we'd have to do a little bit of damage to make that work and a little bit of time and labor. The other thing we can do now, though, is they do make a smart switch that'll solve this for us. So we can take the existing switches you have, install a smart switch in its place. It wires the exact same way that that one does. The plus of this is, we still have the local control that you currently have, but then we can pair it with a remote, and the remote can group all of them together to turn them all on or all off together. The nice part is, we can also install the plate over it to make it look like a conventional wall switch, and we don't need to wire it or cut anything into the wall.

Cathie

That's great.

Heath

And finally, we'll add the smart hub. The smart hub will give you control of the system over your phone or a tablet. It can let you group individual light switches or other controls together or separate them, and you can set timers, reminders, events to control anything in the house and add to it in the future.

Cathie

All right. That sounds great. Let's put them in.

Heath

All right. And the nice part about the new one is... that it's simply two black wires and a ground, so it doesn't matter which ones they go on. You just reattach them. So, let's see the new one. All right. So, we're gonna push the new dimmer back into place.

Whirring

Heath

All right. So, what we're gonna do is we're gonna slide the dimmer... into its wall bracket, slide the wall bracket into place. We'll put the plate over it to get our alignment. And then we'll slide the plate off and mark the holes. Now we can put our drywall anchors in and mount this. All right. So, in this box, we have two single-pole switches, one controlling one light each. What we're gonna do in this case is combine the two to control both lights off of one switch. And what this will do, it'll let us install the wireless remote in the second spot, so we'll still have the local switch here controlling two lights, and the remote will still give us the ability to have the all-on, all-off we're looking for. Over by the sink, we'll replace the existing switch with a hardwired smart switch. This will allow these lights to pair with the rest of the lights. I won't add a remote here since there are already a number of switches at this location, and you won't need all-on, all-off in this location very often. All right, Cathie, and now we're gonna pair the remote to our switch, and what we're gonna do is press and hold the bottom button on the switch. The LED is gonna light up, telling us it's in program mode. And now that it's in program mode, we'll press and hold the bottom button on our remote. Once they link, the LEDs will flash again, and we can test it out. And that tells us that the two are linked.

Wow. Heath

All right, Cathie. And now you're gonna press and hold the bottom button

on that right switch. Cathie

Okay.

Heath

And we're gonna hold that for about 6 seconds until the LEDs light up to tell us it's in programming mode.

All right. It's ready. Heath

Perfect. And now I'm gonna press and hold the bottom button on this remote, and that's gonna link that switch to this remote, as well. All right. So that's -- Let's test it. We'll turn this off from there. And let's try turning this on.

Cathie

Hey! We have light!

Heath

We have light! All right. And now that we've linked all the devices together, we're gonna go ahead and test them, and we're gonna show that the devices on that side of the room operate the same as these do.

Cathie

Okay.

Heath

So let's go ahead and try the all-on.

Wow. That's great. Heath

Perfect. And now you still have the ability to control locally, as well, so these two will turn on only if you want.

And we can dim. Cathie

That's excellent.

Heath

All right. And the last thing we did is, we took that smart hub, and we tied it into your home network, and what that's gonna let us do is, it's gonna let you control the system with your phone through the app or you can actually use voice command if you set it up.

Cathie

Oh, that's perfect. That's so much more convenient. Thank you so much,

Heath. Heath

No problem. Thank you.

And thanks for having me. Kevin

Huh. Nice fix, Heath. I like the solution, although the problem seems pretty quirky, right? I mean, we're talking four switches, three locations, six lights. That's not that typical.

Heath

A little unusual to have that many switches

for that few lights. Kevin

So, other places that you might use a solution like this?

Heath

So, this actually has a lot of applications. Other areas you might use this? Well, picture if you had a large room with a single switch on one side, and you're walking out the other side and you don't have a switch to turn things off.

Kevin

You'd want a three-way, but you don't really have it.

This gets that for you. Heath

Easy to install this. If you had a floodlight that was controlled from maybe the garage or the living room where it isn't convenient, but you want to turn it on from the bedroom. Replace the switch, use the remote upstairs.

Kevin

Or how about the switch down in the basement where the kids always leave it on and you've got to go down every time to turn it off?

Heath

Now you can turn it off with that.

Kevin

So, basically, if you wire this into any existing switch -- and it's pretty easy to wire --

you can add this. Heath

Exactly.

Kevin

And now you've changed your entire lighting plan.

Completely. Kevin

Very cool. And, so,

also the app. Heath

Yeah.

Kevin

More functionality when you're actually working this stuff off of your phone?

Heath

Much more functionality. It's nice to have the remote and link the switches to each other and to the remote, but what the app lets you do is when you install the hub, you now have options of linking them together in scenes, creating different kinds of groups. They have a randomizer mode that if you're on vacation, it makes it look like it's lived in by turning things on and off in variations.

Kevin

Oh,

so the light doesn't go on every night at 6

00...

Heath

Exactly. Create timers to turn the outside lights on when you come home and then turn them back off.

So a lot of features. Kevin

Outsmart the robbers.

Laughs

So a lot of features. Kevin

Cool. All right. That's good. You've got me convinced. My one concern, though, is any time I hear "wireless," I think, "Oh, I'm gonna have to reboot, reset. It's not gonna work all the time."

There's a history. Heath

There is. So, a lot of people are still kind of stuck on the switches that came out years ago that used to have a little bit of a reliability issue.

Kevin

How many years we talking?

Heath

30-plus years ago. That's when the first generation of these started to come out. They had some reliability issues. As time went on, they definitely improved, but they were still not perfect. Nowadays, you hardly notice a difference. I haven't seen these really have a glitch yet.

Kevin

Sounds good. Appreciate the information, Heath.

You got it. Kevin

All right. We'd love to hear from you, so keep your e-mails coming. And until next time, I'm Kevin O'Connor...

Heath

And I'm Heath Eastman.

Kevin

...for "Ask This Old House." Next time on "Ask This Old House"...

Nathan

I'm heading to Missouri to install some bypass doors

for a pantry. Man

That's great. That's exactly what we were looking for.

Nathan

I'm glad you like it.

Ross

In Future House, I'll show you how improvements to roof shingles can save you energy and make you more comfortable.

Richard

An automatic water shut-off valve can stop a flood dead in its tracks. I'll put a few of them to the test.

Kevin

So you really want me to cut it?

Yes. Kevin

Oh! It's still flowing.