Washington Week with The Atlantic

JEFFREY: FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S RHETORIC GETS MORE EXTREME WITH EACH PASSING WEEK.

>> WE WILL ROOT OUT THE COMMUNIST, MARXIST FASCIST THUGS THAT LIVE LIKE VERMIN WITHIN THE CONFINES OF OUR COUNTRY.

JEFFREY: AND HE'S NOT THE ONLY ANGRY REPUBLICAN.

ON THE HILL THIS WEEK -- >> THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CIVIL WAR RIDGES ON INCLUDING APPARENTLY ACTS OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

>> THERE ARE DUMB DAYS ON CAPITOL HILL AND THERE ARE DUMBER DAYS AND THIS IS ONE OF THE DUMBEST I'VE SEEN.

JEFFREY: NEXT.

JEFFREY: WELCOME TO THE ANGER MANAGEMENT EDITION OF "WASHINGTON WEEK."

DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER BEEN MODULATED IN RHETORIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BUT THERE IS A SENSE AS HE COMES UNDER INCREASING LEGAL PRESSURE, HE HAS BECOME MORE APOCALYPTIC.

WE WILL DISCUSS THIS AND OTHER ISSUES TONIGHT WITH PETER BAKER, A CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES.

LEANNE CALDWELL, FROM THE WASHINGTON POST.

THE WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR THE ECONOMIST.

AND MY COLLEAGUES AND STAFF WRITER AT THE ATLANTIC.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET ANGRY AT EACH OTHER TONIGHT, RIGHT?

I DON'T WANT TO USE MY BERNIE SANDERS VOICE.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

FIRST TIME ON THE SHOW, YOU DON'T GET TO YELL AT ANYBODY.

I WANT TO GO RIGHT AT THIS QUESTION OF THE WAY DONALD TRUMP IS PRESENTING HIMSELF TO THE WORLD.

OBVIOUSLY HE STARTED IN 2015, KNOCKED THE MODULATED GUY, A LOT OF ANGRY INVECTIVE, BUT SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE SHIFTING FURTHER AS HE DEALS WITH CHAOS AROUND HIM.

I WANTED TO READ A QUOTE FROM MY COLLEAGUE TOM NICHOLS.

HE IS SOMEBODY THAT PREVIOUSLY HAD BEEN VERY HESITANT TO USE THE WORD FASCIST TO DESCRIBE IDEOLOGY OR PRESENTATION OF DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS WHAT HE WROTE YESTERDAY - - HIS PRESENCE IN OUR PUBLIC LIFE HAS BECOME NORMALIZED AND HE CONTINUES TO BE TREATED AS ANOTHER MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATE.

THIS IS THE PATH TO DISASTER.

THE ORIGINAL FASCISTS AND OTHER RIGHT WING DICTATORS OF EUROPE SUCCEEDED BY ALIGNING WITH THOSE THAT WOULD DRIVE THE ELITES FROM POWER.

PETER, IS THERE SOMETHING NEW IN TRUMP YOU ARE WITNESSING?

PETER: IT IS EXACERBATED.

I WROTE IN 2016, "IS TRUMP A FASCIST."

A?

AT THE TIME.

- - A QUESTION MARK AT THE TIME.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE RAISED THE QUESTION BACK THEN AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE UNWILLING TO GO THAT FAR.

AUTHORITARIAN, AUTOCRATIC, SURE, BUT FASCIST HAS A POWERFUL CONNOTATION.

BUT HE SEEMED TO BE ALMOST WELCOMING IT.

HE KNOWS THE LANGUAGE HE IS USING IS IN FACT REMINISCENT -- JEFFREY: DOES HE KNOW THAT?

PETER: I THINK SO BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN TOLD AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THINK ABOUT THE PHRASES ABOUT THE MEDIA, HE KNEW BY THE THIRD OR 81ST TIME HE USED IT, IT WAS STALINIST.

HE KNEW WHEN HE USED AMERICA FIRST -- MAYBE NOT THE FIRST TIME, THAT IT WAS IN REFERENCE TO A PRE-WORLD WAR II NAZI SYMPATHIZING MOVEMENT.

HE SAID I DON'T CARE.

HE USED TO QUOTE IN 2016 THAT WAS A MUSSOLINI QUOTE AND HE WAS CONFRONTED, HE SAID IT WAS A GOOD QUOTE.

HE DOESN'T MIND FLIRTING WITHOUT I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT, THE PASSAGE SHOWED ON THAT CLIP, HE IS MORE AND MORE -- JEFFREY: THE VERMIN QUOTE.

HOW DO YOU CALIBRATE THIS, HOW TO PRESENT TO YOUR READERS THE LEVEL?

AUTHORITARIAN, AUTOCRATIC, FASCIST?

IS THERE A DANGER OF PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA OVEREMPHASIZING WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL HISTORICALLY ABNORMAL ASPECTS OF HIS PRESENTATION?

>> I THINK THERE IS A RISK THAT IF WE'VE BEEN HAVING THESE DEBATES FOR SEVEN YEARS, PEOPLE PERCEIVE IT AS THE MEDIA CRYING WOLF.

IT USED TO BE THAT TRUMP HAD A SORT OF INVOKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MEDIA IN ADDITION TO CASTIGATING IT, BUT NOW THERE IS A HARDER EDGE.

THE VERMIN QUOTE RECALLS THE SPEECHES THAT WERE GIVEN IN NAZI GERMANY OR WITH ZELENY AND I THINK -- NO COINCIDENCE, I WAS READING THE ANATOMY OF FASCISM, AND LOOKING AT THE DEFINITIONS.

THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, THERE IS A MILITARY EDGED FASCIST MOVEMENTS I THINK YOU COULD POINT TO THE PROUD BOYS AND WHATNOT, BUT NOT QUITE THE LEVEL OF THE BROWNSHIRTS AND LECTURES.

AND TRUMP FOR ALL OF HIS SINS, IS NOT A TERRITORIAL EXPANSIONIST.

HE AVOIDS WAR AND DOESN'T HAVE TENDENCIES TOWARD INTERNAL CLEANSING.

I AM TREPIDATIONS ABOUT USING THAT WORD, I THINK A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY LIKE VICTOR ORBAN, WE COULD USE THOSE TENDENCIES IF HE IS ELECTED.

MY TREPIDATION REMAINS.

JEFFREY: NOT ONLY DOES HE NOT WANT TO INVADE POLAND, HE WANTS TO LEAVE POLAND AND MUCH OF EUROPE.

WHICH CREATES ITS OWN OPPORTUNITIES FOR AUTOCRATS.

ALAYNA, WHAT ABOUT YOUR VIEW?

YOU'VE WATCHED TRUMP AND TRUMP'S HIM FOR QUITE A WHILE.

WHAT ARE THE FACTORS GOING INTO THIS RAMPED UP LANGUAGE?

>> I THINK IT IS INSTRUCTIVE TO LOOK AT THE TRUMP OF 2016, WHO VERY MUCH SEEMED LIKE A CANDIDATE UNDER THE ASSUMPTION HE WAS PLAYING WITH HOUSE MONEY SORT OF.

TO HIM, THERE WAS AN AIR OF LEVITY.

HE WAS ENJOYING THE SHOWMANSHIP ASPECT OF IT.

YOU DON'T GET THAT NOW AT ALL.

THIS IS ABOUT RETRIBUTION NOW.

I FOUND THAT ASPECT OF THE PRESENTATION TO BE STRIKING.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO GENUINELY BELIEVES THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM HIM AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE CONTRIBUTED TO THE DOWNFALL OF A PRESIDENCY THAT HE OTHERWISE BELIEVES ALL OF AMERICA WANTED TO CONTINUE.

FOR HIM, BECOMING PRESIDENT NOW IS NOT JUST A JOKING PROPOSITION, IT IS SOMETHING HE GENUINELY WANTS TO ASSUME, AND THAT KIND OF POWER IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND EXACT REVENGE.

JEFFREY: IS THAT BECAUSE IF HE GETS TO THE WHITE HOUSE HE THINKS HE CAN SOLVE HIS LEGAL PROBLEMS OR JUST KIND OF REVENGE?

IS IT AN AMALGAMATION?

PETER: IT IS DARKER.

RETRIBUTION IS HIS WORD, HE'S SAID THE CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT RETRIBUTION.

THE OTHER WERE HE'S USED SHOULD REMEMBER IS TERMINATION.

HE HAS USED THAT WORD IN REFERENCE TO THE CONSTITUTION DID HE BELIEVES WE SHOULD TERMINATE THE CONSTITUTION TO EVICT JOE BIDEN AND PUT TRUMP BACK IN OFFICE WITHOUT AN ELECTION.

A LOT OF US DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO THAT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WAS NONSENSE AND HE WAS BEING PROVOCATIVE, BUT I THINK WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS THEY WANT TO TERMINATE THE CONSTITUTION -- THE FRONT RUNNER FOR ONE OF THE TWO PARTIES FOR PRESIDENT -- WE SHOULD TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.

WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN WERE HE WOULD FLIRT WITH THAT.

HE TOLD HIS SECOND CHIEF OF STAFF, WHY AREN'T YOU LIKE THE GERMAN GENERALS?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

THE GERMAN GENERALS DURING WORLD WAR II?

YOU MEAN HITLER'S GENERALS?

THEY TRIED TO KILL HIM THREE TIMES.

HE IS FLIRTING WITH FASCISM.

LEANNE: THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE NOW, IS NOT JUST THE RHETORIC AND THE SHARPNESS OF THE RHETORIC, IT'S WHAT HE SAYS HE'S GOING TODAY.

IN HIS FIRST TERM HE PUT IN PLACE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH HIM, WHO HE WANTED TO GO FURTHER AND THEY STOPPED HIM, LIKE JOHN KELLY AND GENERAL MILLIE, ETC.

HE SAYS HE WON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN.

IT IS BEYOND THE RHETORIC IN HOW HE IS PROPOSING WHAT A SECOND TERM WOULD LOOK LIKE.

JEFFREY: WE HAVE A GENERAL UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE HE PROVIDES THAT UNDERSTANDING THAT HE WANTS TO GO AFTER CERTAIN PEOPLE, HE'S TALKED ABOUT GENERAL MILLIE FOR INSTANCE, AS SOMEONE HE WANTS TO PROSECUTE.

FOR WHAT, HE DOESN'T SAY.

ARE THERE MECHANISMS IN PLACE THAT WOULD PREVENT TRUMP FROM ACTUALLY DOING THAT SHOULD HE WIN THE PRESIDENCY?

ISREES: HE'S ALREADY RELEASED PLANS THAT HE DOESN'T THINK THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS INDEPENDENT.

YOU LOOK AT THE CONSTRAINTS ON THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND YOU SEE CONGRESS, WE HAVE THE MAGA WIN THERE IS VERY POWERFUL.

THAT CONSTRAINT MIGHT NOT BE AS BINDING AS IT ONCE WAS.

THE SENATORS WHO OPPOSE DONALD TRUMP, AND THERE REMAIN SOME, BUT THEY ARE GOING WILL -- GOING AWAY BY ATTRITION.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE THE COURSE BE THE FINAL CHECK ON HIS AUTHORITY, EVEN THOUGH THOSE APPOINTED BY HIM HAVE BEEN WILLING TO STEP IN.

TO TURN AWAY HIS ELECTION FRAUD CLAIMS.

THAT WOULD BE THE LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.

IT USED TO BE ELECTION WORKERS WAS A [APPLAUSE] [NO AUDIO] 23 -- ELECTION WORKERS WAS A TECHNOCRATIC POSITION.

I THINK THAT GUARDRAIL HAS SLIPPED AWAY.

THE RESTRAINTS ARE SLIPPING.

JEFFREY: ANY CHANCE HE CAN'T PULL OFF -- THIS IS ASSUMING HE WINS THE NOMINATION AND ELECTION - - ANY CHANCE IT IS MORE BLUSTER THAN REAL?

ANY CHANCE HE COULD NOT FIND THE PEOPLE TO PULL OFF THESE PLANS?

PETER: HE SAID A LOT OF THINGS HE NEVER FOLLOWED UP ON AND I THINK THAT SWAYS A LOT OF PEOPLE, HE JUST LIKES TO SAY PROVOCATIVE THINGS AND GET OUR DANDER UP AND GET PEOPLE LIKE US TALKING ABOUT IT ON TV.

IT IS TRUE, A LOT OF THINGS HE TALKED ABOUT THAT WERE OUTRAGEOUS HE NEVER PURSUED.

BUT PART OF THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM THAT WILL BE AROUND HIM NEXT TIME.

I THINK YOU WILL FIND PEOPLE WHO WILL WORK TOWARD THOSE GOALS AND HE WON'T SAME CHECKS.

WHAT WILL IMPEACHMENT DO?

NOTHING, IT'S NO LONGER A CHECK ON ANY PRESIDENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED TWICE.

THERE IS NOT AN ELECTION CHECK AND CONGRESS HAS MADE CLEAR THERE ARE LIMITS TO HOW MUCH THEY ARE WILLING TO CHECK HIM.

JEFFREY: ALL OF YOU HAS BEEN A LOT OF TIME TALKING TO SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE, INCLUDING AND ESPECIALLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU ARE HEARING OVER THE LAST FOUR WEEKS.

OBVIOUSLY THEY'VE BEEN OBSESSED WITH ELBOWING EACH OTHER IN THE KIDNEYS AND WHATEVER.

ARE THEY NOTICING A CHANGE IN TRUMP AND DOES IT MAKE EVEN THE PERFORMATIVE MAGA REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS, IS IT GIVING ANYBODY PAUSE?

ELAINA: THE BIGGEST OR IS NOT SO MUCH WHAT TRUMP WANTS TO DO BUT WHAT CONGRESS WILL ALLOW HIM TO DO.

PETER MENTIONED PEOPLE WILL HAPPILY GO ALONG WITH TRUMP'S PLANS.

A LOT OF REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WILL GO ALONG WITH HIS PLANS EVEN IF THEY ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT IT.

REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS FACE NOT SO MUCH A TRUMP PROBLEM BUT A TRUMP VOTER PROBLEM.

THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

THAT RELATIONSHIP I THINK HAS FUELED SO MUCH OF WHERE WE FIND OURSELVES RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS TO SAY I THINK REPUBLICANS, THE MOMENT THEY GET THE SENSE THAT THEIR CONSTITUENTS ARE OFFBOARD WITH TRUMP, THEY WILL JUMP SHIP IMMEDIATELY THIS IS NOT THEM CLINGING TO A LAST GASP, THAT THEY PERCEIVE THIS MAN IS A HERO.

JEFFREY: YOU PROVIDE AN OPENING FOR A QUESTION THAT HAS COME INTERESTING TO ME IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO.

POLLING NOW IS SHOWING NIKKI HALEY IS INCHING UP IN THE PUBLIC'S MIND, THE REPUBLICAN BASE'S MIND.

THE LATEST POLL, CNN AND NEW HAMPSHIRE, TRUMP AT 42% AND NIKKI HALEY AT 20%.

IT IS NOT NOTHING.

IT DOESN'T SAY JUGGERNAUT BUT IT ALSO DOESN'T SAY -- IT SHOWS MOVEMENT.

MY QUESTION IS, IS THIS LIKE A SITUATION WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW WHERE AS SOON AS BARACK OBAMA PROVED TO DEMOCRAT PRIMARY VOTERS THAT HE WAS A CREDIT WILL CANDIDATE, THERE WAS OF MOVEMENT TOWARD HIM.

IS THERE A CHANCE THAT AMONG REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS, IF THERE IS SOMEBODY WHO IS CREDIBLE, I WILL JUMP?

LEIGH ANN: I THINK BEYOND TRUMP, THE VOTER BASE IS FRACTURED.

LET'S DO HYPOTHETICALS, RON DESANTIS DROPS OUT, CHRIS CHRISTIE DROPS OUT, AND THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE A REAL RACE BETWEEN NIKKI HALEY AND DONALD TRUMP, MAYBE.

IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE ARE ALSO WATCHING DONORS.

YOU HAVE DONORS TALKING ABOUT COMING OFF THE SIDELINES, GOING TO NIKKI HALEY.

IN 2016I COVERED THE REPUBLICAN RACE MOTHER GRASSROOTS AND DONORS.

THE DONORS OR THE LAST TO COME ALONG TO DONALD TRUMP, THE GRASSROOTS WERE THERE IMMEDIATELY.

IN 2020, I DON'T KNOW IF THE DONORS HAVE THE POWER TO MOVE THE PARTY AWAY FROM TRUMP AND THAT SOME THING I WILL BE WATCHING.

JEFFREY: AM I KIDDING MYSELF?

ISREES: IF YOU LOOK AT NATIONAL POLLS, TRUMP HAS A 60% AVERAGE OF PUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS, AND IN NO HAMPSHIRE -- NEW HAMPSHIRE SHE'S HAD SOME MOMENTUM.

IT IS A POSITIVE DIRECTION.

IF THERE WERE TO BE A SCENARIO IN WHICH SHE COULD BE COMPETITIVE, IT WOULD BE LIKE YOU OUTLINED.

DESANTIS DROPPING OUT.

BUT EVEN IN A HEAD-TO-HEAD RACE, TRUMP COMES OUT AHEAD AND IS STILL INCREDIBLY POPULAR AMONG REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS.

THEY ENDORSE HIS MESSAGE, HIS PHILOSOPHY FOR WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OUGHT TO BE.

MY FEELING IS ULTIMATELY HE DOES WIN EVEN IF THERE IS CONSOLIDATION AROUND NIKKI HALEY.

PETER: ONE OF THE PROBLEMS FOR NIKKI HALEY IS THE CRIMINAL TRIALS DON'T GET STARTED UNTIL MARCH, ASSUMING THEY HAPPEN ON TIME TO WE ARE HEADING INTO -- ASSUMING THEY HAPPEN ON TIME.

WE WILL BE HEADING INTO SUPER TUESDAY.

THEY WON'T EVEN PICK A JURY UNTIL APRIL OR SO.

THE IDEA THAT THE TRIAL WOULD UPEND DYNAMICS DOESN'T SEEM LIKELY.

ISREES: WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF A CONVICTION WOULD MOVE HARD-CORE VOTERS.

JEFFREY: YOU WROTE A PROFILE ABOUT, HARRIS.

- - ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS.

TALK TO ME ABOUT NIKKI HALEY.

LEIGH ANN: A LOT OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES HAVE INVOKED THE IDEA THAT A VOTE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN IS A VOTE FOR PRESIDENT HARRIS.

NIKKI HALEY HAS MADE THAT PRETTY CENTRAL TO HER PITCH FROM THE GET-GO.

ELAINA: IT BEARS OUT WITH POLL AFTER POLL, VOTERS ARE CONCERNED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AGE AND HIS ABILITY TO MAKE IT THROUGH FOUR MORE YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

IN A GENERAL ELECTION, NIKKI HALEY IS SOMEONE WHO COULD PROBABLY MARSHALL THAT LINE PRETTY EFFECTIVELY ON A DEBATE STAGE.

BUT AGAIN, THE HYPOTHETICAL TO ME IS ALMOST TOO FAR OUT TO CONSIDER IT.

JEFFREY: THAT'S MY SPECIALTY.

[LAUGHTER] ELAINA: I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF A CONVICTION AT THIS POINT WOULD MOVE ENOUGH PRIMARY VOTERS TO MAKE SOMETHING LIKE A NIKKI HALEY NOMINATION MORE PLAUSIBLE.

JEFFREY: RIGHT.

I WANT TO SHIFT FOCUS TO THE HILL.

AND I WANT TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED, YOU HAVE ALL SEEN THIS ALREADY AND I ASSUME MANY PEOPLE AT HOME HAVE.

I FIND IT HYSTERICAL, I COULD WATCH IT ALL DAY LONG.

IT IS A HEARING IN WHICH SENATORS CONFRONTING THE HEAD OF A UNION.

>> YOU WANT TO DO IT NOW?

>> WE CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW.

>> STOP IT.

SIT DOWN.

YOU ARE A UNITED STATES SENATOR, SIT DOWN PLEASE.

>> CAN I RESPOND?

>> HOLD IT.

NO.

YOU WILL HAVE YOUR TIME.

>> CAN I RESPOND?

>> NO, YOU CAN'T.

JEFFREY: PETER, YOU ARE NOT A UNITED STATES SENATOR, YOU CAN RESPOND.

WE WILL NOT DO THAT.

THE DEEPER QUESTION, THE SERIOUS QUESTION -- APART FROM, FOR GOD SAKE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING OVER THERE -- IS THIS JUST A SIGN OF THE DISCOURSE OR A SIGN OF A PARTICULAR ANGER MOMENT AMONG REPUBLICANS?

PETER: IT IS STRIKING IT WAS ON THE SENATE SIDE.

IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AS SURPRISING ON THE HOUSE SIDE.

THERE ARE QUITE A FEW COMBUSTIBLE FIGURES ON THE HOUSE SIDE.

BERNIE SANDERS TURNS OUT TO BE THE VOICE OF REASON.

I DON'T KNOW, IT IS OF THE MOMENT, RIGHT?

OUR POLITICS TODAY ARE FULL OF PERFORMATIVE ACTS OF MACHO BEHAVIOR ON THE PART OF OVERGROWN -- LEIGH ANN: THAT LEAD TO FUNDRAISING.

HE IS FUNDRAISING OFF OF IT, HE HAS T-SHIRTS.

JEFFREY: I WANT YOU TO WATCH ANOTHER, SHORTER CLIP OF KEVIN MCCARTHY.

AND THEN YOU WILL BE THE ANTHROPOLOGIST THAT EXPLAINS WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ELBOW IN THE KIDNEY.

>> I WOULD NOT ELBOW HIM, I WOULD NOT HIT HIM IN THE KIDNEY VIEWED >> -- KIDNEY.

>> IT WAS DELIBERATE BY A BULLY.

LEIGH ANN: KEVIN MCCARTHY IS HAPPY TO BE BACK AT THE CENTER OF ATTENTION FOR A MOMENT.

HE IS STILL EXTREMELY ANGRY.

TIM BURCHETT IS ONE OF THE EIGHT PEOPLE THAT VOTED TO OUST MCCARTHY FROM HIS JOB AND SO CARTHY HAS ESPECIALLY HARD FEELINGS.

WHEN HE IS ASKED ABOUT IT, HE NOT ONLY SINGLES OUT OTHERS BUT TIM BURCHETT.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IN THIS POST MCCARTHY WORLD, EVEN PEOPLE I AM TALKING TO WHO WERE ALLIES OF KEVIN MCCARTHY ARE NOW OUT OF IT AND SAYING WE DIDN'T REALIZE HOW DARK OF A TIME IT WAS.

MY SOURCES SAY MCCARTHY WAS VERY GOOD AT PITTING MEMBERS AGAINST EACH OTHER, VERY GOOD AT MAKING US VERY TENSE AND DISTRUSTFUL OF EACH OTHER.

THE FACT THAT MIKE JOHNSON BECAME SPEAKER SIMPLY BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE AN ENEMY IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

WE HAVE REPORTED THAT, OTHERS HAVE REPORTED THAT, AND IT WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE SICK AND TIRED OF NOT LIKING THE LEADER.

JEFFREY: THE MAGA FACTION IS ALREADY ANNOYED AT HIM OVER HIS SPEAKER LIKE BEHAVIOR THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

HOW LONG DOES IT LAST BEFORE HE BECOMES THE TARGET OF THIS ELBOW FACTION OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT?

LEIGH ANN: THIS HAS BEEN THE STORY SINCE THE FREEDOM CAUCUS WAS LAUNCHED.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, CORRECTLY AT THE TIME, PREDICTED ALLOWING THIS MOTION TO VACATE AND LIMITING THE THRESHOLD FOR WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR THAT TO HAPPEN WAS OFFICIALLY GOING TO TAKE SOMEONE DOWN.

ELAINA: JOHN BANNER RESIGNED BEFORE IT COULD TAKE HIM.

THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE WAITING FOR, THIS MOMENT.

IT DOESN'T MATTER I THINK WHO WOULD BECOME SPEAKER, THESE BATTLE LINES WILL SETTLE BACK INTO PLACE.

JEFFREY: PETER, DOES MIKE JOHNSON HAVE A FORMULA THAT WILL HELP KEEP HIM IN POWER?

OR IS THIS ANGER FACTION, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, ARE THEY JUST KIND OF CHAOS MAKERS?

PETER: THEY ARE CHAOS MAKERS IN THEY KNOW THAT, HE'S BEEN PART OF IT.

FOR THE MOMENT IT IS ON-THE-JOB TRAINING.

HE IS LITERALLY THE LEAST EXPERIENCED MEMBER OF CONGRESS IN I THINK 140 YEARS AND THE GUY 140 YEARS ONLY HAD A COUPLE OF MONTHS ON HIM.

HE IS LEARNING AS HE GOES PIT HE HAS GOODWILL BECAUSE -- AS HE GOES.

HE HAS GOODWILL BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE ENEMIES.

THEY SAY AT LEAST WE TRUST HIM AND THERE IS A HONEYMOON PERIOD HE WILL HAVE, THE QUESTION IS HOW LONG IT WILL LAST.

HE'S TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT AND HE'S NEVER BEEN PUT IN THIS POSITION OR A COMMITTEE CHAIR OR HEAD OF A PARTY.

JEFFREY: LITERALLY PEOPLE IN HIS OWN CAUCUS BARELY KNEW HIM.

LEIGH ANN: THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED, PEOPLE DON'T KNOW YOU.

HI THIS TOGETHER IN 58 SECONDS - - TIE THIS ALL TOGETHER IN 58 SECONDS VIEWED BEEN THROUGH PERIODS IN AMERICA WITH EXTREME ANGER THAT HAS MANIFESTED ON CAPITOL HILL.

THE 1850'S COME TO MIND.

IS PANDORA'S BOX OPENED BY THE NORM BUSTING OF DONALD TRUMP?

OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE MAKING SOME DIFFERENCE IN WHAT TRUMP IS DOING BUT THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME.

IS THIS ALL RELATED OR ARE THEY DISPARATE EVENTS?

ISREES: I THINK THEY ARE RELATED TO THE GENERAL COARSENING OF AMERICAN POLITICS.

KEVIN MCCARTHY SPECIFICALLY BEING MAD ABOUT KICKING OUT AND VENTING SOME SPLEEN IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE.

IF YOU LOOK OVER ALL, LOOK AT POLLING, 25% OF AMERICANS SAY LITTLE VIOLENCE MIGHT BE NECESSARY TO SAVE DEMOCRACY.

YOU SEE THAT IN THE SENATORS'S INTERACTIONS.

I THINK THAT'S MOST POWERFUL FORCE IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

JEFFREY: UNFORTUNATELY WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW BUT I WANT TO THANK MY PANELISTS FOR JOINING US.

ON THE PBS WEEKEND TOMORROW, -- NEWS WEEKEND TOMORROW, HOW NURSES ARE FILLING A MUCH-NEEDED HEALTH CARE GAP.

I AM JEFFREY GOLDBERG, GOOD NIGHT FROM WASHINGTON.