Here & Now

Wisconsin Joins Call For Constitutional Convention

Frederica Freyberg:

Now to the state legislature and tonight’s capitol insight. Sponsors of a Senate measure to approve a constitutional convention say its passage this week makes Wisconsin the 28th state to approve such a resolution. If 34 states approve, convention delegates can be called to draft amendments to the U.S. Constitution. Republican proponents of the convention say they would focus on an amendment to require a balanced federal budget. But what else could be possible? We turned to Wisconsin Public Radio’s Capitol Bureau Chief Shawn Johnson. Thanks for being here.

Shawn Johnson:

Hey, Fred.

Frederica Freyberg:

In your reporting, you referred to this as an Article 5 resolution. What is Article 5?

Shawn Johnson:

It refers to Article 5 of the U.S. Constitution, which is a fairly short passage that talks about how you can amend the Constitution. And the way that this country has done it for the previous 27 amendments is a different process. We have a two-thirds vote in the U.S. House, two-thirds vote in the U.S. Senate and then ratification by three-quarters of the state legislatures. This would be a completely different process. What we’re talking about here and what passed the Wisconsin Senate this past week, this would be a so-called convention of states. Where if two-thirds of states agree, they can petition Congress to form this Article 5 convention and then they can propose pretty much whatever they want.

Frederica Freyberg:

So after 230 years, the Wisconsin legislature believes the time is now to push for this Article 5 resolution and this balanced budget amendment?

Shawn Johnson:

It really has been, you know, that long. Going back to 1787, this hasn’t been used. So it would be a — you know, an extremely big deal, an historic process. And when you listen to supporters of this, they say they don’t take it lightly and that if you look back at the great civilizations, the thing that has always toppled them has been debt. And they feel like debt is growing too large in the United States right now. And that it’s a national security threat it’s so bad.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, let’s take a listen to what one of the Republican backers, Senator Dave Craig, had to say about this on the Senate floor.

Shawn Johnson:

Article 5 was put in place specifically for the situation in which Congress, the federal government, needs assistance from the states, by which under our Constitution, the federal government derives its power. To somehow say on this body’s floor that this is not within our purview is ridiculous.

Frederica Freyberg:

But what are the rules about whether just one amendment like this could be added?

Shawn Johnson:

That's the thing. There are no restrictions like that in the Constitution. So if this convention is called, even though the states have said we’re calling it to talk about this balanced budget amendment and a number of — Wisconsin passed a resolution spelling out what the convention would be about. They passed a bill that said here’s who would be our delegates. Once the convention is called, constitutional experts say there’s nothing that restricts what delegates can do. And so they could consider amendments on any number of issues, including two existing protections that are in the U.S. Constitution.

Frederica Freyberg:

Understood why people might consider that a slippery slope.

Shawn Johnson:

Yeah. And that was the argument that you heard from opponents of this, which in this case were the Democratic members of the State Senate. Democratic Senator Kathleen Vinehout was among those who said, “If you call this convention, you’re opening up all these protections that people hold dear.” Here is Senator Kathleen Vinehout.

Kathleen Vinehout:

As rewriters of the United States Constitution, the delegates become the sovereign power in the land. More powerful than the United States Congress, more powerful than the United States Supreme Court, more powerful than the United States President.

Frederica Freyberg:

So we should note that Kathleen Vinehout is one of the Democrats running for governor. But now how do sponsors of this reconcile the idea that the tax plan in Washington is kind of on the fast track and the CBO says that this would add $1.7 trillion to the deficit? How do reductions in revenue square with potential needs for government spending? I know opponents of the balanced budget amendment have some concerns along these lines. Like what?

Shawn Johnson:

Yeah. I mean, if you sort of set aside the concerns laid out there by Senator Vinehout and others that this could open a Pandora's box and that you could have any amendment to the Constitution, set that aside. Let’s say that they just focus on a balanced budget amendment. What does that mean, you know? What is a balanced budget amendment? If you’re talking about not letting the government spend more than it takes in, that would reduce debt, but it would be a dramatic departure from the way government as we know it operates now. What does that mean if you have a big tax cut bill? What does that mean if you have a war? What does it mean if you have a natural disaster like a hurricane and suddenly you need more money than you have to pay for it? These are all questions that are, you know, raised by the prospect of a balanced budget amendment, you know, especially since you don’t know what that would look like. It would be up to delegates.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, as we discussed in the lead to this segment, 34 states would have to pass this resolution. How likely is this to happen?

Shawn Johnson:

We don’t know. You know, there’s really no way to say. I think as more and more states get added to the list, you start to realize, hey, they’re getting kind of close to that number. 28 is probably–looks pretty high to people who started this push years ago. And so yeah, you’re six states away at this point. A little caveat there. If they were to get up to that 34 threshold, there would be some debate over whether or not they’d hit that number. Because some of these resolutions were passed decades ago. And so there would be some dispute, there is some dispute over whether or not those are still valid. Some of them are calling for slightly different language than others. And so when would you hit that number? That would be debated even if they hit that 34 according to sponsors.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Well, thanks for spelling this out for us. Shawn Johnson.

Shawn Johnson:

You're welcome.