Here & Now

>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY," I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN. TODAY'S DECEMBER 1st. SINCE THE DISCOVERY OF COVID-19 AND WHITE-TAILED DEER, IT'S RAISED A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND HAS THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY ON ALERT. TONY GOLDBERG IS A PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY WITH THE UW SCHOOL OF VETERINARY MEDICINE AND JOINS US NOW TO EXPLAIN MORE, AND, PROFESSOR GOLDBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> YOU'RE WELCOME. GREAT TO BE HERE. >> SO YOU CHARACTERIZED THIS NEW EMERGENCE AS A GAME CHANGER. WHY? >> THIS FINDING OF SARS-COV-2 IN DEER IS POTENTIALLY A GAME CHANGER BECAUSE UP TO THAT POINT, WE REALLY DIDN'T THINK THAT THE VIRUS WAS GOING TO TAKE OFF IN OTHER ANIMAL SPECIES. WE KNEW IT COULD INFECT THEM. YOU MAY REMEMBER STORIES OF TIGERS, LIONS, AND GREAT APE IN ZOOS GETTING SICK, BUT THAT SEEMED TO BE SORT OF A DEAD END. THE GAME CHANGER PART OF THIS IS THAT IF A VIRUS GETS INTO A WILDLIFE SPECIES AND SPREADS AND PERPETUATES, AND, IMPORTANTLY, IF IT CAN GET BACK INTO HUMANS, WHICH WE DON'T KNOW IN THIS CASE, THEN IT IS VERY HARD TO CONTROL. WE HAVE OTHER EXAMPLES OF THIS LIKE WEST NILE VIRUS, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH IS STILL CIRCULATING IN BIRDS AND MOSQUITOES THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AND NORTH AMERICA ACTUALLY, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET RID OF IT, YOU CAN'T CATCH ALL THE BIRDS AND BATS AND VACCINATE THEM OR KILL OFF ALL THE MOSQUITOES SO IF IT TURNS OUT DEER ARE A RESERVOIR FOR SARS-COV-2, MEANING THEY CATCH AND TRANSMIT TO PEOPLE, THAT MAKES THIS VIRUS EVEN MORE DIFFICULT THAN IT ALREADY IS. >> HELP US UNDERSTAND JUST HOW PREVALENT IT IS IN THE DEER POPULATION. IS IT A HIGHER RATE THAN HUMANS ARE INFECTED? >> IT IS A HIGHER RATE THAN HUMANS ARE INFECTED BASED ON LIMITED STUDIES WE'VE DONE SO FAR. THE STUDY THAT GOT ALL THE RECENT PRESS WAS ONE DONE IN IOWA IN WHICH THEY STUDIED CAPTIVE AND WILD DEER, AND ALL TOGETHER, ABOUT A THIRD OF DEER WERE POSITIVE FOR THE VIRUS, AND THAT'S PRETTY HIGH BECAUSE YOU CAN IMAGINE IF YOU WERE TO JUST WALK DOWN THE STREET AND RANDOMLY TEST PEOPLE IN A HEALTHY POPULATION, YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT. YOU'D EXPECT MAYBE, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN 1% TO 5% OF PEOPLE ON ANY GIVEN DAY SO IT WAS SURPRISING, AND THE INTERPRETATION THERE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DEER ARE CLEARLY SPREADING IT TO EACH OTHER VERY QUICKLY. >> DO WE KNOW HOW COVID-19 COULD HAVE GOTTEN FROM HUMANS INTO WILD DEER, AND DO WE KNOW HOW LONG IT'S ALREADY BEEN CIRCULATING? >> THOSE ARE VERY GOOD QUESTIONS. WE DON'T KNOW HOW SARS-COV-2 GOT FROM PEOPLE INTO DEER, BUT WE HAVE IDEAS. THIS IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED. THAT'S THE WORD OF THE DAY WITH THE PANDEMIC, "UNPRECEDENTED." THIS ACTUALLY ISN'T. THERE'S BEEN A LONG HISTORY OF HUMANS GIVING DISEASES TO ANIMALS, INCLUDING RESPIRATORY VIRUSES. MY WORK FOCUSES ON CHIMPANZEES IN AFRICA, AND THEY OFTEN EXPERIENCE EPIDEMICS OF SEVERE RESPIRATORY DISEASES THAT IN ALMOST ALL CASES ARE TRACED BACK TO HUMANS. WE THINK THIS HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE GO INTO THE FOREST AND DEPOSIT VIRUS ON OBJECTS IN THE FOREST SO IT IS PROBABLY NOT THAT WE'RE STANDING CLOSE TO A DEER HAVING A CONVERSATION AND SNEEZING ON EACH OTHER. IT IS MORE LIKELY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE SOMEBODY IS SPITTING OR RUBBING THEIR FACE AND TOUCHING A BRANCH, AND A DEER COMES BY A LITTLE BIT LATER AND GETS INFECTED THAT WAY, SO THE INFECTIONS FROM HUMANS TO DEER ARE PRETTY LOW FREQUENCY AND UNLIKELY, BUT THERE'S ENOUGH DEER AND ENOUGH PEOPLE THAT THEY'LL HAPPEN. IN TERMS OF HOW LONG IT'S BEEN IN DEER, WE HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF THAT BECAUSE THE EARLY STUDIES OF ANTIBODY RESPONSES IN DEER WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT DEER WERE NEGATIVE FOR THE VIRUS BEFORE 2020, BUT BECAME POSITIVE IN 2020 SO WE THINK THAT THE INFECTION OF DEER HAPPENED PRETTY MUCH AT THE SAME TIME AS WE SAW CORONAVIRUS SPREAD INTO PEOPLE, IN OTHER WORDS, EARLY TO MID-2020. >> WISCONSIN JUST WRAPPED UP ITS TEN-DAY GUN DEER HUNTING SEASON, AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES DID RECOMMEND MEASURES TO PREVENT POSSIBLE COVID EXPOSURE FROM HARVESTING A DEAD DEER. WAS THAT A REAL RISK, AND DO WE EVEN KNOW FOR SURE IF A DEER, DEAD OR ALIVE, CAN TRANSMIT THE VIRUS BACK TO HUMANS? >> WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER A DEER, DEAD OR ALIVE, CAN TRANSMIT THE VIRUS BACK TO HUMANS. CLEARLY, THAT'S A HUGELY IMPORTANT QUESTION, AND WE ARE RACING, WE AS A SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY, ARE RACING TO UNDERSTAND IF THAT CAN HAPPEN. THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES' RECOMMENDATIONS ARE BASED ON THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE. WE DON'T KNOW THAT IT CAN HAPPEN, BUT WE DON'T KNOW IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO IN THAT STATE OF NOT KNOWING, THE BEST THING TO DO IS ISSUE GUIDELINES THAT ARE REASONABLE AND WOULD PREVENT TRANSMISSION OR LOWER RISK, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. I HOPE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE. I HOPE THIS IS A DEER VIRUS NOW, BUT WE REALLY DON'T KNOW THAT, AND UNTIL WE DO KNOW THAT, IT WOULD PAY TO BE REALLY CAREFUL. >> AND SO HOW DO VARIANTS FACTOR IN TO THIS? ARE THE DEER CARRYING ANY VARIANTS THAT ARE CIRCULATING IN HUMANS, OR ARE THEY CARRYING SOMETHING THAT'S SPECIFIC TO THE DEER HERD AND MUTATIONS THAT HAVE DEVELOPED IN DEER? >> SO RIGHT NOW, THE DEER ARE CARRYING ONLY VARIANTS THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND IN PEOPLE, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, FOR THE VARIANTS SEQUENCED, SO THE REMARKABLE THING IS THAT THE SCIENTISTS WHO DID THIS WORK SEQUENCED THE ENTIRE GENOME OF THE SARS-COV-2 VARIANTS THAT THEY FOUND IN THE DEER, AND EACH ONE OF THOSE VARIANTS WAS IDENTICAL TO A VARIANT CIRCULATING LOCALLY IN IOWA AT THE TIME WITH BASICALLY NO CHANGES, AND THE AMAZING THING IS THAT DEER HAD, I THINK, IT WAS 12 HUMAN VARIANTS IN THEM, WHICH MEANS IT WAS NOT JUST ONE UNLUCKY EVENT WHERE ONE SICK PERSON SNEEZED ON A DEER SOMEWHERE, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS HAPPENING MULTIPLE TIMES, SO RIGHT NOW, ALL WE'VE FOUND IN DEER ARE VARIANTS OF WE KNOW CIRCULATION IN PEOPLE. THAT BEING SAID, ONE OF THE BIG FEARS IS THAT WHAT WENT INTO DEER MIGHT NOT BE THE SAME AS WHAT COMES OUT OF DEER OR WHAT SUSTAINS ITSELF IN DEER BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, AS WE ALL KNOW NOW FROM -- NOW IT'S THE OMICRON VARIANT, BUT THIS CONSTANT CHANGING OF THE GUARD WITH SARS-COV-2 VARIANTS, THAT THIS VIRUS IS VERY PRONE TO EVOLVE, TO CHANGE, TO CHANGE ITS GENETIC, AND TO CHANGE ITS DISEASE-CAUSING ABILITIES, AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING, AND IT IS TRYING TO EVADE IMMUNITY AND DO ALL THE NASTY THING VIRUSES DO. WHEN A VIRUS LIKE THIS FINDS ITSELF IN A NEW ENVIRONMENT, DEER, THE FEAR IS IT IS GOING TO EVOLVE IN A NEW DIRECTION, AND IF IT CAN BE TRANSMITTED OUT OF DEER, THEN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS THAT DEER ARE SPEWING OUT VARIANTS OF THE VIRUS THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN HUMANS, BUT THAT COULD POSE A PROBLEM FOR HUMANS. >> SO AS YOU ALREADY MENTIONED, WILD DEER HAVING COVID-19 ARE BEING CALLED "A RESERVOIR" FOR THE VIRUS. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DEER ARE NOT GETTING SICK FROM COVID-19, BUT, AS YOU SAID, MORE VARIANTS COULD DEVELOP AND THEN POSSIBLY TRANSFER BACK TO HUMANS? HAVE WE SEEN THAT HAPPEN BEFORE? DO WE KNOW WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE? >> YEAH. GOOD QUESTION. REAL QUICK. WE DON'T YET CALL DEER "A RESERVOIR" BECAUSE FOR THEM TO BE A RESERVOIR, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE THE CASE THEY TRANSMIT BACK TO HUMANS. ALL WE KNOW NOW IS THAT THE VIRUS IS IN DEER AND CIRCULATING IN DEER. WE'RE KIND OF ONE STEP AWAY FROM A RESERVOIR, BUT, YES, THIS IDEA OF VIRUSES OR OTHER PATHOGENS EVOLVING NEW VARIANTS IN ANIMALS IS NOT NEW. THIS HAPPENED WITH WEST NILE VIRUS, WHICH I MENTIONED BEFORE. THE STRAIN THAT CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN 1999 QUICKLY EVOLVED INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT ADAPTED TO NORTH AMERICAN MOSQUITOES AND BIRDS AND SAW SIMILAR THINGS WITH OTHER VECTOR-BORN DISEASES LIKE YELLOW FEVER, AND, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE DIFFERENT, BUT EBOLA VIRUS, FOR EXAMPLE, WE DON'T KNOW WHERE IT COMES FROM IN NATURE, BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE A PLETHORA OF STRAINS OF THE VIRUS THAT EMERGE INTO PEOPLE EVERY NOW AND THEN THAT ARE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER, AND SO IT SEEMS LIKE IT IS THE RULE RATHER THAN THE EXCEPTION THAT WHEN WE HAVE VIRUSES IN WILDLIFE, THEY ARE GOING TO EVOLVE AND SURPRISE US. >> SO THERE IS A LIKELIHOOD THAT COVID-19 COULD BE PASSED BACK FROM DEER, BUT IT IS A LOW LIKELIHOOD AT THIS POINT. WILL THIS SURVEILLANCE THAT WE'RE DOING OF DEER NOW ALLOW US TO BE ABLE TO TRACK WHATEVER MUTATIONS MAY DEVELOP IN DEER THAT WE DON'T ALREADY SEE IN HUMANS AND THEN GET AN UNDERSTANDING OF IF IT IS GOING BACK TO HUMANS? HOW WILL WE KNOW IF IT'S GOING FROM DEER TO HUMANS? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. IT IS GOING TO BE TOUGH. IF SARS-COV-2 CAN BE TRANSMITTED DEER TO HUMANS AND IF A DEER WERE TO GIVE A PERSON A NORMAL HUMAN STRAIN OF THE VIRUS, WE COULDN'T TELL. IT WOULD LOOK JUST LIKE THE PERSON WAS INFECTED BY ANOTHER PERSON. SO SORT OF KILLER EVIDENCE WOULD BE IF THERE'S UNIQUE DEER STRAIN THAT EVOLVED, AND WE MONITORED DEER AND FOUND IT IN DEER AND SUDDENLY WE START TO FIND IT IN PEOPLE. THAT WOULD BE -- LET'S HOPE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, BUT THAT WOULD BE A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF ALARM BELLS. >> SO WHEN VARIANTS WERE DETECTED IN MINK FARM LAST YEAR, THERE WAS A HUGE CONCERN, MILLIONS OF MINK KILLED TO PREVENT FURTHER OUTBREAKS, AND THEY WERE IN FARMS, NOT WILD. HOW DO DEER COMPARE? THEY ARE VERY -- IT SEEMS -- VERY SIMILAR, BUT ALSO VERY DIFFERENT. >> YEAH, THEY ARE SIMILAR AND DIFFERENT. THEY ARE SIMILAR IN THAT THEY ARE A NORTH AMERICAN WILDLIFE SPECIES THAT JUST BY BAD LUCK GOT INFECTED BY THIS VIRUS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN THAT DEER DON'T APPEAR TO GET VERY SICK. MINK GET SICK. IF YOU SHAMING WITH SARS-COV-2, IT WOULD BE A VERY UNHAPPY MINK. YOU ARE RIGHT THAT MINK GOT THE VIRUS AND SPREAD QUICKLY BECAUSE THEY ARE IN HIGH DENSITIES IN MINK FARMS SO THAT'S WHY THE MINKS WERE DESTROYED BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR THAT THEY WERE TRANSMITTING THE VIRUS AND THERE WAS A REAL RISK OF TRANSMISSION BACK TO PEOPLE. WE DON'T KNOW THAT YET FOR DEER. WE THINK DEER DON'T GET VERY SICK. AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE TELLS US, BUT WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE WILD. >> SO DOES THAT MEAN THE MINK BEING DESTROYED, THAT SOLVED THAT PROBLEM, AND ANY TRANSMISSION OR POSSIBLE TRANSMISSION OF VARIANTS BACK TO HUMANS IS NO LONGER A CONCERN? >> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. THE, YOU KNOW, IT IS A DRASTIC MEASURE THAT WE IN THE VETERINARY MEDICAL COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY AND, YOU KNOW, IT IS A LAST DITCH THING, BUT WE CAN DEPOPULATE HERDS OR, YOU KNOW, DESTROY ENTIRE POPULATIONS OF FARM ANIMALS IF THE PUBLIC HEALTH RISK IS HIGH ENOUGH, AND SO WITHOUT THE MINK, THE PROBABILITY OF, YOU KNOW, MINK TRANSMITTING TO PEOPLE IS NOT THERE, SO, YES, WE DID, AND THERE ARE MINK VACCINES UNDER DEVELOPMENT, I UNDERSTAND, AND SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE'LL BE ABLE TO SAFELY FARMING AGAIN. THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T AND WOULD NOT WANT TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE A SIMILAR APPROACH TO OUR WILD DEER HERD BECAUSE DEER IN WISCONSIN AND THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES ARE PRETTY IMPORTANT TO OUR CULTURE AND OUR NATURAL ECOSYSTEMS SO OUR TOOL KIT IS VERY LIMITED. >> SO WHAT'S IN THE TOOL KIT? HOW IS IT MANAGEABLE? IT'S NOT LIKE YOU SAID WE CAN MASS VACCINATE DEER OR EXTERMINATE THEM. WHAT CAN WE DO? >> THERE'S ACTUALLY A LOT WE CAN DO, AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GIVE UP, NOT TO THROW UP THEIR HANDS AND SAY, WELL, IT'S IN DEER, THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO. THAT'S REALLY NOT THE CASE. THE KEY IS CAREFUL EVIDENCE-BASED MANAGEMENT. SO, OKAY, IT'S IN DEER, WHERE IS IT IN DEER? HOW CAN WE PREVENT THIS FROM SPREADING TO NEW AREAS? HOW CAN WE MANAGE THE DEER HERD IN AN INTELLIGENT WAY TO LIMIT TRANSMISSION BETWEEN DEER PERHAPS TO, YOU KNOW, TO -- IF THERE ARE VARIANTS THAT EMERGE TO KEEP THEM IN PLACE. THIS WOULD REQUIRE SOME CREATIVE NEW RULES ABOUT HARVESTING DEER, THAT MAY OR MAY NOT FLY WITH THE PUBLIC. I THINK THAT MANY OF US REMEMBER AND STILL DEALING WITH IT, CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE. THE WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES HAD A PROGRAM FOR A WHILE CALLED "BURN A BUCK" WHERE IN ORDER TO SHOOT A BUCK, YOU HAVE TO SHOOT AN ANTLERLESS DEER IN AREAS OF THE STATE, AND THAT PROGRAM WAS IN PLACE BECAUSE WE WANTED TO REDUCE DENSITY OF THE DEER HERD IN AREAS THAT WE KNEW CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE WAS A PROBLEM. WELL, WE REMEMBERED THAT PROGRAM. PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE IT, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HERE COMES THAT, YOU KNOW, EIGHT-POINT BUCK RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR DEER STAND, AND YOU CAN'T SHOOT IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT SHOT AN ANTLERLESS DEER YET, AND SO IF WE DECIDE THAT WE WANT TO CONTROL THIS VIRUS IN DEER OR THAT WE NEED TO, WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO THINK OF SOME CREATIVE WAYS OF THINNING THE HERD IN CERTAIN STRATEGIC AREAS TO DO THAT, AND IT IS LIKELY TO CAUSE SOME CONFLICT BETWEEN PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE DEER HUNTING COMMUNITY, BUT I THINK IF WE, YOU KNOW, IF PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE RISK THAT THIS MIGHT POSE, WE DON'T KNOW YET, BUT THE RISK IT MIGHT POSE, I THINK WE CAN FIND COMMONGROUND. >> SHOULD POLICYMAKERS WILL TAKG ACTION, AND SHOULD THE PUBLIC BE PANICKED AT THIS POINT? >> NO AND NO. RIGHT NOW, OUR BEST STRATEGY IS TO WAIT BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE RISK OF TRANSMISSION TO HUMANS YET. WE DON'T KNOW THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE VIRUS OUTSIDE OF THE STUDY DONE IN IOWA. SO RIGHT NOW, WE'D BE JUMPING THE GUN. I THINK THE BEST WE CAN DO IS ADOPT PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE. LET'S NOT PANIC, BUT LET'S JUST ASSUME, BECAUSE OF THE SAFE AND REASONABLE THING TO DO, THAT DEER POSE SOME SORT OF RISK, AND SO LET'S BE CAREFUL WHEN WE ARE NEAR THEM, WHEN WE PROCESS THEM, WHEN WE HUNT THEM, WHEN THEY ARE IN CAPTIVE SETTINGS LIKE FARMS AND ZOOS, LET'S EXERCISE ADDITIONAL CAUTION UNTIL WE GET MORE INFORMATION. >> WHAT WILL YOU BE MONITORING CLOSEST GOING FORWARD? >> I AM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT TWO THINGS. I WANT TO KNOW WHERE IN THE UNITED STATES THE VIRUS HAS ALREADY SPREAD. IS IT THE UPPER MIDWEST? IS IT THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES? ALL OF NORTH AMERICA? ARE THERE POCKETS OF VIRUS OR NOT? THE OTHER THING THAT I'M VERY CURIOUS ABOUT IS MIGHT THERE BE OTHER WILDLIFE BESIDES DEER THAT ARE INFECTED? THERE'S MANY ANIMALS OUT THERE THAT LIVE WITH DEER, INCLUDING MINK AND OTHERS LIKE MINKS, AND SO COULD THIS VIRUS SPREAD FURTHER INTO OUR ECOSYSTEM, OR HAS IT DONE THAT ALREADY, AND IF SO, ARE WE GOING TO GET VARIANTS OF THE VIRUS THAT ARE DEER VIRUS AND MINK VIRUS AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE? SO, YOU KNOW, STEPPING BACK FROM THE CLEAR PUBLIC HEALTH SIGNIFICANCE OF ALL OF THIS IS ACTUALLY A PRETTY INTERESTING REALTIME EXAMPLE OF VIRUS EVOLUTION. WHAT HAPPENS ON VIRUS THAT JUMPS SPECIES AND BEGINS TO ADAPT IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I WISH IT WEREN'T HAPPENING, BELIEVE ME, BUT THE FACT IT IS HAPPENING DOES GIVE US A LOT OF INTERESTING NEW INFORMATION ABOUT HOW VIRUSES BEHAVE. >> ALL RIGHT. WE LEAVE IT THERE. PROFESSOR TONY GOLDBERG OF THE UW SCHOOL OF VETERINARY MEDICINE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> YOU'RE VERY WELCOME. >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW" AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON WEDNESDAY."