Here & Now

Noon Wednesday: Is Wisconsin’s Democracy in Danger?

Marisa Wojcik:

Welcome to “Noon Wednesday,” I’m Marisa Wojcik, multimedia journalist for “Here & Now” on PBS Wisconsin. Today’s January 5. We are back, and it is 2022, although, it doesn’t feel like it. We are reaching new levels of the pandemic and still arguing over the 2020 elections, so how do we look forward? Our guest today wrote a new book that takes us through some recent and older political history in Wisconsin, and he says democracy in this state is in danger. Matt Rothschild is the author of “12 ways to save democracy in Wisconsin,” and he joins me now. Matt, thank you for the conversation.

Matt Rothschild:

My pleasure, thank you for having me on, Marisa, really appreciate it.

Marisa Wojcik:

So why exactly do you think democracy in Wisconsin is in any sort of existential danger?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, when I was writing this book, I was looking at some of the problems that have been corroding the foundations of our democracy here in Wisconsin and around the country to some extent. Money in politics, for instance, we deal with that every day at the Wisconsin democracy campaign, and gerrymandering is a huge problem, and it is reared its ugly head again in the last several months here in Wisconsin, and so that’s a problem, and there are some other larger issues, like racism and economic inequality that have been corroding the foundations of our democracy, and so all of those things, I think, represent a real threat, and on top of that is a threat I can only wave at in this back because I finished writing this almost a year ago, and that’s what happened on January 6th, the coup attempt and those surrounding Donald Trump and white nationalism and an epidemic of irrationalism, not only about the November elections but crazy irrationalism about covid and crazy irrationalism you see in Q’Anon. Hard to function with that level of irrationalism and then feeding this is a right wing media ecosystem that gives people in that camp, essentially, an IV drip 24/7 of that kind of propaganda, and so it is hard to breakthrough, and thats, I think, is very dangerous to our democracy, and here in Wisconsin, there were co-conspirators in this January 6th coup attempt. By that, I mean there was 15 legislators who signed a letter to Mike Pence on January 5th, a year ago exactly, of all days, telling the vice president not to ratify the electors, that Wisconsin sent to the electoral college. We had ten false electors, republicans who were imposter electors. They say they were the actual electors and that Trump had won Wisconsin, and so this denialism about what happened on November 3rd is very terrifying to me, actually, as is the assault on the Wisconsin elections commission, which we see almost daily, and on top of that, we have the Michael Gableman fishing expedition that’s costing us $676,000 or more and ticking, and he wants to arrest the mayors of Green Bay and the mayor Madison. This is craziness. We have not seen this level of partisan attack on the integrity of our collections of elections in my lifetime. It really is the scariest moment for democracy in Wisconsin and nationwide. I’ve been covering politics for 40 years and never seen anything like it.

Marisa Wojcik:

So let’s get into your list here. You have 12 chapters, 12 ways that you propose to save democracy, so the list is banning gerrymandering, campaign finance reform, making voting easier, reenfranchising former prisoners and banning prison gerrymandering, tightening recusal rules, direct democracy, rent choice voting, local control, save local media, root out racism, and move towards economic democracy. Are these unique, specifically to Wisconsin?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, no, none of them are unique to Wisconsin. A lot of them are national like gerrymandering, campaign finance, economic equality, racism, for sure, but take one easy one, like tightening recusal rules. This might seem obscure, but what a recusal rule is a rule whereby judges or justices need to get off a case when they have an obvious conflict of interest. They need to rescue themselves, as they say. Now, in Wisconsin, the rule on recusal is essentially no rule at all. The Wisconsin Supreme Court was invited by the League of Women Voters and by 54 retired judges and former justices in the Wisconsin supreme court to adopt a tight rule on recusal and conflict of interest, but what the Wisconsin Supreme Court did instead was adopt a rule that was written by the biggest lobbying outfit in Wisconsin, Wisconsin manufacturers and commerce, and the Wisconsin realtors, and, basically, the rule said it’s up to the judge or justice whether he or she could get off a case or not. That’s a rule with no teeth whatsoever. On top of that, if Im a lawyer in a case before a judge right now, I can give that judge’s re-election campaign a check for $2,000, and neither that judge nor I need to tell the lawyer on the other side of the case I just gave the judge $2,000. I mean, that’s an invitation to corruption. It’s basically legalized bribery, and we ought to do able to do better than that in Wisconsin. All we have to do is change the law. You know, Gary Hebel, State Assembly Representative in Sun Prairie , introduced a bill in several sessions of the legislature to do away with that ability to essentially legally bribe a judge and to have some real tough rules on recusal, so, you know, that’s particular to Wisconsin, and we are falling behind other states, which is a real sad thing for me. I came to Wisconsin 40 years ago because I was enticed by the progressive tradition and tradition of clean government, but we lost both of those. Other states are banning gerrymandering. Other states are re-enfranchising the formally incarcerated, other states are doing more on campaign finance than we are. So we are tumbling down the list.

Marisa Wojcik:

Now, you say in the book Wisconsin was once a laboratory of democracy. Now, for the last decade or so, there are many examples of republican policies originating in Wisconsin and then being adopted by other states. Is Wisconsin still not a laboratory for democracy even if it’s not for the democratic party’s policies?

Matt Rothschild:

No, it’s not a laboratory for democracy anymore, I think its a laboratory for plutocracy ruled by the rich or a laboratory for reaction or a petri dish for the Koch brothers or privatizers. Look what Scott Walker did attacking labor unions. We were a leading state as far as giving labor unions the right to organize here in Wisconsin, including the right to organize in the public sector. We were the first state to allow that, and Walker got rid of that.

Marisa Wojcik:

So there is a lot of finger pointing in this book at Republicans, and you do have an openly progressive stance on politics, but the very nature of a lot of these issues has just become hyperpolarized to even have a conversation about. What is your appeal to Republicans or Conservatives who read this and may want to just dismiss it early on for being too liberal? How do you bring them into the conversation?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, Im all for conversation and argumentation. I think we need more of that across the aisle here in Wisconsin. I invite anyone who would like to debate me to debate me or just, you know, have a private exchange. I’m for that. We need more opportunities to do that. I have sections in every chapter about counter arguments and complexities and try to give some expression to views that don’t align with mine, and I do want to salute a couple Republican elected officials right now who I think have been very courageous, especially senator Kathy Bernier, heading the Wisconsin Senate Committee on Elections calling the Gableman fishing expedition is charade and needs to end and said almost tearfully in a press conference quoting Ben Franklin who said, you can have a republic, if you can keep it. She said we may not be able to keep it at the rate we’re going. That was very powerful to me. I saw her in a public hearing with other clerks and with a member of the Wisconsin Elections Commission saying we have all of these checks and balances for our elections here in Wisconsin. Our elections are not being stolen, and that was courageous. The other Republican I want to salute is state senator Rob Coles who heads the Legislative Audit Committee, the co-head of it, and he said that our elections are safe and secure. Now, they are under tremendous pressure from their base and from some other people in the republican caucus and the legislature to keep hyping the propaganda about the last election and keep regurgitating Trump’s big lie, and they refuse to do that, and they deserve credit for doing that.

Marisa Wojcik:

Some of the topics in the book, such as carrying out the results of the 2020 — carrying out and the results of the 2020 election, these are still very much playing out in real-time. Lots of things even just this month in January coming through the courts. How much of your concern for the state of democracy in Wisconsin stems from what’s just happening in the last five to ten years or less?

Matt Rothschild:

Well with, a lot of it happened in the last year. The last year’s made me even more worried about the state of our democracy here in Wisconsin. And over the last ten years, I just think money and politics has become much more extreme. After the Citizens United decision, a U.S. Supreme court decision back in 2010, that said super rich people and other groups can spend as much money as they want to try to elect this or that candidate, and then in 2015, the Republican Legislature, again, with the exemption of Senator Rob Coles, passed a bill that totally rewrote our election law in Wisconsin, which is ironically called, you know, Chapter 13, and — no, Chapter 11, ironic they call it Chapter 11, the Bankruptcy Chapter, and what it did is allow super rich people and corporations to have more sway over elections than ever before. It allowed corporations for the first time in 100 years, for instance, to contribute directly to political parties. Poor LaFollette, the great governor and senator from our state who his whole life fought against corporate control of politics would be rolling over in his grave right now if he saw that. They can spend unlimited amounts money on political parties, before, there was a $10,000 de facto limit of what a super rich could spend on politics, and now there’s no limit whatsoever. There was an expression in Wisconsin that’s now antiquated, and that was, I maxed out, and some rich folks in Wisconsin, on both sides, who like to play in the political arena, actually like this expression because they can tell a candidate who came to them begging for another donation, that, you know what, Id love to help you, but I maxed out, I spent the $10,000 limit, and now there’s no way for a super rich person in Wisconsin to max out.

Marisa Wojcik:

You have two chapters in particular I found interesting you incorporated relating to the incarcerated, so, one, end prison gerrymandering, and the other is to restore voting rights to those who have been recently released from prison, but they are still on some sort of parole or probation. Why did these two topics in particular make your list? When you hear about them less than issues like campaign finance reform or voter id, things like that.

Matt Rothschild:

Glad you brought these up because these are two issues that I’ve become familiar with over the last of seven years in the Wisconsin democracy campus that I didn’t know that much about before but are really important. One is re-enfranchising the formally incarcerated. Now, there’s 64,000 people in Wisconsin right now who served their time. They paid their dues. They served their term behind bars. They are now living in the community. Still, they can’t vote. They are citizens of Wisconsin. They did the time. They can’t vote. They can’t vote because theyre here on paper, as it’s called, on extended supervision and parole, and sometimes that lasts 10, 12, 15 years. If thigh serve the penalty for their crime, the severest part of the penalty, which is sacrificing freedom and living behind bars for the whole term of their sentence, they should be able to vote, and now a lot of states including our neighboring states let people vote once they get out behind bars. Two states actually let people vote while behind bars, Vermont and Maine. But here in Wisconsin, you know, we’re making these people feel like a total outcasts even after serving their time, and I think that’s wrong. Prison gerrymandering is another issue that I didn’t know much about. Now prison gerrymandering essentially means counting you as living in the place where the prison is located rather than where you actually live, the community you come from. In other words, if you are arrested and convicted in Milwaukee and sent to Wapon, the census counts you as living in Wapon for ten years, even though likely you’re only there for a year and a half or two and then you go back to Milwaukee. As a result, Milwaukee is undercounted and under resourced. Wapon has greater representation and greater resources that flow from that representation because of the way we count where prisoners live, and that seems to be wrong. And, again, other states are moving on this issue of banning prison gerrymandering, and we are not moving at all.

Marisa Wojcik:

And we have reported on that very topic of prison gerrymandering on this program speaking to spokes from Expo, and they reiterated that that is a way to address racism in Wisconsin. Additionally, in your book, you talk about how campaign finance reform is a way to address some forms of racism in Wisconsin. Why are some of these things directly related to race?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, race, you know, undergirds a lot of what’s wrong with our country and a lot of the malfunctioning of our democracy, and to ignore racism as a problem across the board is a mistake, and even in particular in campaign finance, for instance, because of the gross disparities in wealth and income on racial lines in Wisconsin and in the country, Black people and Latinos have less of an ability to compete in the money game, and the money game is a big part of the real game who is elected and who doesn’t and what laws are passed and what aren’t, and what policies are pursued and what are junked, and so they are in a disadvantage that way. We also, at the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign looked at top 50 donors to Democrats and top 50 donors to Republicans, and we could find only one person who was not white, and so, you know, if the funding is being done primarily by white folks, you know, chances are the laws that are being passed or the policies pursued are not really reflecting the needs and interests of the folks who are not white.

Marisa Wojcik:

Now, I, particularly, liked the chapter on saving local media as well as how to have a respectful dialogue. Are people too entrenched in their own echo chambers, and is that contributing to this erosion of democracy?

Matt Rothschild:

I do think it is poisonous for the our democracy to have people in their own camps, in their own media ecosystems, you know, you can be a lefty and watch MSNBC and “Meet the Nation,” or be a progressive and Democracy Now on the radio, and live in Madison and not bump into anybody who disagrees with you and be a right winger elsewhere in the state and listen to Fox News and reading right wing stuff on the tablets, and because of the algorithms, you are fed more and more of that stuff and you’re in separate media universes and separate camps, and you view the other person as not only having different ideas than you have, but as being evil and as being, you know, totally off the charts. Someone you can’t even have a conversation with, and I think we need more conversations across the aisle. We need to find forums where we can have civil dialogue and so Im looking for those forums. I’m hoping to have more of them here in Wisconsin, and we can’t give up on each other. I mean, half of the people of Wisconsin voted for a candidate that the other half didn’t. Now, not everybody in the other side is an evil person, and we got to figure out how we can first listen to each other. I think that’s really important. Try to connects with other people, unless, of course, the other people are, you know, waving confederate flags and have swastika tattoos on the muscles, I’m not as left-wing Jewish atheist going to engage in a conversation with that person because it could be dangerous for me, frankly, but that’s the majority of the people who voted in ways different than I do or view the world in a way different than I do. There are so many people in the state, and I have some friends who are in this category too, really good people, nice people, did not vote the way I voted. I’m trying to have conversations with many of them, and I think we need to bring people back from the abyss of anti-democracy. I see this anti-democracy movement sweeping this country, and alive and kicking here in Wisconsin, and it scares the bejesus out of me, frankly.

Marisa Wojcik:

And, since the pandemic, I mean, there’s ways in which we’ve become more isolated, but there’s also ways in which the internet has allowed us to become more connected, so, definitely two sides of the coin there, so your final chapter is on hope. Why is that important to you, and how do you foresee movements on the ideas that you have laid out in this book?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, yeah. Hope is something you have to have just to get out of bed in the morning, and if you’re a political person, you need to have it; otherwise, you wouldn’t engage in this politics, and I also have hope because I work with a lot of tremendous pro-democracy nonprofits, and activists within and outside those nonprofits here in Wisconsin. We’re lucky in this state to have so many groups out there that are doing such great work. I’m referring to, like, the League of Women Voters, a tremendous organization. Common Cause, Block, Lip, the African-American Round Table, Wisconsin Conservation Voters, Wisconsin Farmers Union. They are just so many good organizations doing great work across the state, and I travel around the state giving talks, at least I did so before covid, and I would meet these folks all the time just doing great work in every community, and look at the civil rights protests that happened a year and a half ago. They happened in more than 48 communities. Many of these communities had never seen a civil rights protest, you know, in their lives, and so that’s encouraging to me, and so I take hope from that. I also take hope from the teachings of Howard Zen, who wrote for me when I was at the progressive for many years and also worked for Ralph Nader right out of college, both stressing the need for citizen activism and need for non-violent mass movements, and those are things that give me hope still to this day.

Marisa Wojcik:

Now, tomorrow is the one-year anniversary of the insurrection on the U.S. Capitol. Do you think strengthening democracy nationwide through ideas that you put forth in this book could prevent something like that from happening again either at the U.S. Capitol or even here in our own state?

Matt Rothschild:

Well, I think we need something more even than the ideas sketched into the book, frankly. I think, first of all, Merrick Garland, United States Attorney of the United States, has a legal, moral, and historical obligation to indict Donald Trump for election tampering and conspiracy to commit subversion. Donald Trump needs to be held accountable for the crimes against our democracy. When you are the President of the United States and you call up the Secretary of state of Georgia say, just give me 11,780 votes, that’s the very definition of election tampering. When he was plotting with people in the oval office about, you know, six ways he could overturn the election and not have Vice President Pence ratify the electoral college votes, that’s conspiracy to commit subversion. He needs to be held accountable. On top of that, we have to do things to prevent a president in the future from overturning our democracy. One of those things is to take off the books the Insurrection Act. There’s a law called the Insurrection Act that allows the President of the United States to put U.S. Troops in the streets of this country. Trump, on January 19th, 2021 could have invoked the Insurrection Act to stay in power. There’s also the National Emergency Act allowing the president and president alone to declare a national emergency for 30 days and basically suspend our system of checks and balances. I mean, we cannot leave these loaded guns in the top drawer of the oval office for the next Donald Trump who comes in.

Marisa Wojcik:

All right. We need to leave it there. Matt Rothschild, author of “12 ways to save democracy in Wisconsin,” thank you for the conversation.

Matt Rothschild:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Marisa Wojcik:

For more from “Here & Now” and PBS Wisconsin, you can visit pbswisconsin.org/news, and thank you so much for joining us on “Noon Wednesday.”