Here & Now

Here & Now for Sept. 28, 2018

Announcer:
The following program is part of our “Here & Now” 2018 Wisconsin Vote election coverage.

Frederica Freyberg:
The race for U.S. Senate, the incumbent, Democrat Tammy Baldwin.

Tammy Baldwin:
If my opponent, Leah Vukmir, had been in the United States Senate last summer, she would have been the deciding vote to take people’s health care away.

Frederica Freyberg:
The Republican challenger, Leah Vukmir.

Leah Vukmir:
Everywhere I went I heard the same thing, that Tammy doesn’t represent us. She stands so far to the left.

Frederica Freyberg:
Tonight the candidates in their own words on the issues with in-depth analysis, as Wisconsin prepares to vote on November 6th.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

Frederica Freyberg:
Good evening. I’m Frederica Freyberg with Wisconsin Public Television.

Shawn Johnson:
And I’m Shawn Johnson with Wisconsin Public Radio. In less than six weeks, voters go to the polls to elect Wisconsin’s next U.S. Senator.

Frederica Freyberg:
For the next half-hour, we will compare and contrast two candidates in the running. They are U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin, first elected in 2012. And State Senator Leah Vukmir, first elected to the legislature in 2002.

Shawn Johnson:
We’ll dig into the latest from the campaign trail and be joined in studio by Wisconsin Public Radio’s Laurel White. We interviewed each of the candidates in recent weeks. What you’ll here tonight are excerpts from those interviews.

Frederica Freyberg:
But first, while these candidates stand in sharp contrast on nearly every issue there is, one rises to the top: health care. Healthcare, and specifically coverage for people with pre-existing conditions, figures prominently in the U.S. Senate race in Wisconsin. Republican candidate Leah Vukmir is a nurse and wants to repeal the Affordable Care Act, the law that includes prohibiting insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. The law also prohibits charging more or limiting benefits. The incumbent, Democrat Tammy Baldwin, is running hard on her support for the ACA and its protections for pre-existing conditions. She cites her own childhood illness that blocked her for getting coverage for her personal understanding of the issue. A Kaiser Family Foundation poll released this month showed that nationally 75% of those surveyed want to keep provisions prohibiting insurance companies from denying coverage because of a person’s medical history. And 72% don’t want insurers to be able to charge sick people more. In Wisconsin, more than 850,000 people have pre-existing medical conditions according to Kaiser. Health Policy Programs Director at the UW-Madison Population Health Institute, Donna Friedsam.

Donna Friedsam:
At least about 25% of adults in Wisconsin have some kind of excludable pre-existing condition.

Frederica Freyberg:
What do those include?

Donna Friedsam:
They could include — we think of the significant things like diabetes or heart disease, but they could include asthma. They can include fairly common conditions.

Frederica Freyberg:
Wisconsin, through State Attorney General Brad Schimel, is taking a lead along with 19 other states in a lawsuit to overturn the Affordable Care Act, which would of course get rid of its protections for people with pre-existing conditions. Here’s Tammy Baldwin.

Tammy Baldwin:
Right now one of the biggest concerns on the minds of Wisconsinites is healthcare. In particular they’ve seen a fight last year where they almost saw their healthcare ripped away and the protections ripped away. And right now, after we narrowly defeated that legislation, we’re seeing the administration try to unravel it as well as the case that’s going up to the Supreme Court, ultimately, to take away protections for people with pre-existing conditions. I am leading that fight in the Senate of the United States. I know what it was like to have a childhood illness and then be labeled as a child with a pre-existing condition.

Frederica Freyberg:
Baldwin’s challenger Leah Vukmir.

Leah Vukmir:
I support protecting people with pre-existing conditions. We did it here in Wisconsin before it was even part of Obamacare. I support bring healthcare decision-making back to the states. I’m a strong proponent of the principle of federalism. States know best how to take care of their own and before the Affordable Care Act was put in the place, Wisconsin had one of the lowest uninsured rates. We had a robust insurance market and we had a program for people with pre-existing conditions. And we had to get rid of that because of the one-size-fits-all Obamacare. I firmly believe that we can do better in Wisconsin and we should and we would take care of people with pre-existing conditions.

Frederica Freyberg:
Vukmir refers to a program made defunct in Wisconsin by the ACA. It was a high-risk insurance plan for people with pre-existing conditions. According to Friedsam, it doesn’t really compare.

Donna Friedsam:
It’s important to recognize that it was a very limited program. It covered at its peak 20,000 people in Wisconsin. And we’re talking about compare that to the Affordable Care Act enrolling 200,000 people in the state.

Frederica Freyberg:
As for Wisconsin taking care of people with pre-existing conditions, Governor Scott Walker is also highlighting his moves to pass a new law to do that.

Scott Walker:
I propose that we enact a law in Wisconsin that will guarantee coverage of pre-existing conditions.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:
A bill did pass in the State Assembly last year that prohibited exclusion of people with pre-existing conditions.

Donna Friedsam:
The idea that has been introduced in our state is to, thus far, is to assure that insurance companies offer coverage for pre-existing conditions, but not excluding the underwriting provisions. So insurance companies could offer that coverage at any price they determine that is reasonable for covering that particular individual’s risk. And so while they may get an offer of coverage, that coverage may be unattainable in terms of the pricing.

Frederica Freyberg:
The Assembly bill never made it to the Senate or the governor’s desk. But he and his running mate are pledging to bring back legislation if something were to change. A change like the repeal of the ACA in a lawsuit championed by Wisconsin Republicans.

Rebecca Kleefisch:
Today in Wisconsin, people with pre-existing conditions are already covered.

Donna Friedsam:
The ACA, many people don’t realize, affects virtually everybody who has health insurance in Wisconsin, even people with employer-sponsored insurance. That happens in several ways. One of the most important ways is in terms of protecting people with pre-existing conditions, or providing prohibition on lifetime limits of coverage and annual limits in coverage. And this again is for people even with employer-sponsored insurance.

Frederica Freyberg:
Providers and insurers are bracing for potential change. For example, the healthcare plan of Marshfield Clinic in Wisconsin says, “The current legal efforts to invalidate the Affordable Care Act are concerning because there are not state-based backstops or federal guidance to prevent the market from reverting to pre-ACA conditions.” While Governor Walker pledges to change that if the ACA is repealed, the temperature on the issue continues to rise, from the race for governor to the campaign for U.S. Senate. We are joined here now by Laurel White from Wisconsin Public Radio and thanks for being here with us.

Laurel White:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
Well, it does appear that this race pivots a lot on the issue of healthcare. And national polling at least would seem to support Tammy Baldwin’s position on pre-existing conditions. Latest overall polling, just to put this in there, has — in Wisconsin has Baldwin win up 11 points on Leah Vukmir. Again, no idea where the healthcare issue, you know, is in all of that. But again, a pivotal issue.

Shawn Johnson:
Yeah, and it’s not just isolated to Wisconsin, either. I mean, if you look nationally, in this election cycle, Democrats are talking about healthcare more than Republicans are. And really, that’s the first election cycle we’ve seen that happen going back to 2010, when repeal of the Affordable Care Act or repeal of Obamacare has been a fundamental element of every Republican campaign. They have run on that. This time it’s Democrats that are running on the ACA but running on protecting it.

Frederica Freyberg:
This is the politics of healthcare at this point.

Laurel White:
That’s right. And I think it’s important to note that people aren’t talking about the entirety of the Affordable Care Act on these campaigns. They’re really focusing on the pre-existing condition issue. But there are other elements of healthcare and insurance in particular that have come up in this race quite a bit. So Tammy Baldwin has had a couple different ads talking about Leah Vukmir’s votes in the state legislature on requiring insurance companies to cover certain procedures. So a couple of those that Baldwin has pointed out was one vote that Vukmir took that would not require companies to cover oral chemotherapy. And another one was a vote on cochlear implants and surgery for hearing for children.

Frederica Freyberg:
How does Leah Vukmir reconcile that? She talks a lot about being a nurse. How does she reconcile those votes? Those “no” votes on those?

Laurel White:
She says that she understands healthcare and she believes that requiring insurance companies to do that is going to raise premiums for everyone.

Shawn Johnson:
We need to move along. For Democrats and Republicans alike, President Donald Trump himself will either be a winning or wedge issues for voters. The controversial president won Wisconsin in 2016 by fewer than 23,000 votes. Two years later, how much of an impact will the Trump factor have in the state’s U.S. Senate race? Here are the candidates on that subject. First, Leah Vukmir followed by Tammy Baldwin.

Leah Vukmir:
President Trump is succeeding. I don’t want to look for ways to bring him down. I think that when President Trump succeeds, that America succeeds. And his record is showing that he is doing policies that people want and our country is turning around. The economy is turning around. The deregulatory reforms are making a difference. He’s standing up to foreign leaders in a way that people really are thirsting for in leadership and picking Supreme Court and other judicial nominees that adhere to the Constitution. So those are the things that I am focused in on. I’m not looking for ways to bring him down.

Tammy Baldwin:
We saw one set of guilty verdicts in a trial of his former campaign manager and another, his personal lawyer, plead guilty on several counts including two where he directly implicated the president. On the other hand, I would tell you that my approach to the president and I think I had the chance earlier to tell you the story of my first time meeting with him, where I said, I’m going to talk about buy America policies because that’s clearly something that we agree on and we can work together on. And so the bottom line is, if he is proposing something that helps Wisconsin, I’m probably going to work with him. And if he’s proposing something or has done something to harm Wisconsin, I’m going to stand up, just as I always do.

Frederica Freyberg:
As for Donald Trump, is he a help or a hindrance to Leah Vukmir? We know she said she’s all in on Donald Trump and she fully supports his Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh. Baldwin of course does not. But a help or a hindrance?

Shawn Johnson:
I mean I guess if you look at every midterm election, whoever is in control of Congress and the White House can tend to have a tough time of it in the midterms, right? So just from that perspective, no matter if the president is controversial or not, it’s not a great time to be a Republican if that historic pattern holds. You know, as far as Trump, the more — the controversial outspoken figure, I don’t think Vukmir has any choice but to embrace him to some degree. I mean he obviously struck a nerve here a couple years ago and is still, you know, supported by most of the Republican Party.

Laurel White:
I think it’s interesting to note that in the latest poll we got from Marquette University, Trump’s approval rating in Wisconsin has ticked down a little bit. So that could be a little bit of a liability for Vukmir. I think what’s important here is she does need to be reaching out to independent voters as Baldwin does as well, and how those independent voters feel about Trump is incredibly important.

Frederica Freyberg:
Because 54% of independent voters in that poll disapproved of President Trump and again, those independent voters I understand are really key in this midterm election.

Shawn Johnson:
Yeah. And you look for that movement at the end. And movement is shifting away from the president right now.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. We move along. We move now to the topic of immigration. A topic that has been as tied up in the courts as it has been in the halls of Congress. We asked Tammy Baldwin and Leah Vukmir where they stood on immigration policy. We hear first from Baldwin.

Tammy Baldwin:
I do not support the elimination of ICE, but I do support a real focus on setting priorities. The enforcement of our immigration laws ought to be prioritized to start with dangerous criminals, drug dealers. And when we see and hear some of the stories, it’s clear that they don’t always have their priorities right and they ought to be overseen both by the administration and the Congress of the United States. But on the larger topic, I do believe we need comprehensive immigration reform. We have a broken system for sure. That that comprehensive reform ought to address the plight of the dreamers, these child separations that are immoral on our southern border, and also create a strong but smart border security.

Leah Vukmir:
I believe we are a nation of laws and we have to uphold those laws. We have to first build that wall and then we can start talking about the other aspects of immigration reform. But I feel very strongly that the wall is important for a variety of reasons. It’s not just to stem the flow of illegal immigrants. But human trafficking, drug trafficking. We have problems with MS-13 gang members. And as a nurse I also look at public health concerns. I do remember the times hearing grandmother talk about various people who were stuck at Ellis Island because of health concerns. And we have no control over that as people cross this border illegally because we have porous areas on the border.

Frederica Freyberg:
Tammy Baldwin says she’s not in favor of eliminating ICE and Leah Vukmir says first priority, build that wall. So they’re far apart on this issue as well. What about those ICE arrests in Wisconsin in the past several days, too? Anything from them?

Shawn Johnson:
Yeah, I think the noteworthy thing is you haven’t heard a lot from them on those arrests or really this issue as far as the campaign goes. Yes, they have very different views, but if you kind of step back and look at this campaign as a whole, would you say that either candidate is making immigration a centerpiece of their campaign? You know, I don’t think you would.

Frederica Freyberg:
Not yet.

Laurel White:
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting to look at public perception at immigration issues and how that’s evolved over time. We know that more people in Wisconsin and across the country favor a path to citizenship. And so maybe that’s an area where this is a more toward the middle issue. And so they’re not focusing on it quite as much. I think it’s also interesting to note that Vukmir does mention that she’s from an immigrant family in her first general election campaign ad. So there’s a little mention there.

Frederica Freyberg:
And Vukmir has also said that it was troubling for her to see the separation of these families at the border and of course Tammy Baldwin says that as well.

Shawn Johnson:
Yeah but in a way they’re both going toward, I don’t know, the mythical middle on this one where Baldwin is not with the left of her party when it comes to eliminating ICE, for example. And Vukmir yes, she supports building the ball but she also emphasizes, as Laurel mentioned, her roots coming from a family of immigrants. So doesn’t seem like they’re making it the issue that President Trump did in 2016 where every stop was build the wall.

Frederica Freyberg:
President Trump signed tax cuts into law in late 2017. Over 10 years, the cost of those cuts and changes is projected at $1.5 trillion. That’s the reduction in federal revenues. Average taxpayers are projected to see about a $1600 reduction in 2018. More for higher income people. We hear now from the candidates on the tax cuts. Starting with Tammy Baldwin and then Leah Vukmir.

Tammy Baldwin:
83% of the tax measure went to the top 1% in the individual side and very profitable multi-national corporations and others on the corporate side. Actually gave corporations more than they asked for, leaving over a trillion-dollar hole in our nation’s budget. We were told it would trickle down, but I haven’t seen the sort of pay raises and investments in manufacturing that I was told or, you know, that was part of what was touted. And lastly, with this hole in our budget now, of a trillion dollars, there are people who are talking about cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. The safety nets for a secure retirement for somebody who’s worked hard their whole life. That is absolutely unacceptable to me.

Leah Vukmir:
The tax cuts are going to — they already are spurring the economy and it’s going to take some time for it continue to do so. I talk to folks all across the state who are thrilled to have that extra money in their pockets to do with as they see fit for their families. And that’s why I advocate for these tax cuts to be permanent. And I think we are going to see that the economy will continue to grow, not only with the tax cuts but also with the regulatory reform that the president and Congress have been enacting. This a key important thing. And we saw the same thing here in Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
The classic split between a Republican and a Democrat on tax cuts. Tax cuts versus spending or service cuts. And yet how are opinions kind of shifting on this?

Shawn Johnson:
You know, I guess a good test will be in, you know, less than two months. But there has been some indication in public polling that, you know, people would rather pay for services than get more tax cuts, at least in state issues here this Wisconsin, for example. They’d rather have more money go to schools than to tax cuts. Obviously we’re talking about federal tax cuts here. But you hear very similar arguments from Leah Vukmir who is completely in support of tax cut and says Tammy Baldwin doesn’t want to put that money back in your pocket, I do. And that these are working. And really this is the big bill that Republicans were able to pass during these couple years of Republican control in Washington. So makes sense that they would be talking about it. Tammy Baldwin is taking the argument that Democrats took from the get-go on these tax cuts. That they are for the wealthy and that services you value, social security, Medicare, could be cut.

Frederica Freyberg:
Now, another big issue that affects Wisconsin as well as the rest of the country and frankly the world are tariffs. Tariffs are a tax by another name. You’ve done some reporting on that.

Laurel White:
Absolutely. And what’s interesting there is that while we’re seeing a very traditional Democrat and Republican message on taxes, we’re not quite seeing that with tariffs. So Leah Vukmir is running very close to the president on the issue. She says that China’s been eating our lunch and we need to take action. But Tammy Baldwin is sort of departing from other Democrats in that she’s not denouncing the tariffs as a whole. She’s saying that it’s wise to step up and tell bad actors like China that they can’t continue to do what they’re doing, but she says the president needs to do more to target those tariffs, to make sure that our trade allies aren’t affected.

Frederica Freyberg:
Because it is a big issue, as we know, in Wisconsin with all of our manufacturing and agriculture as well. So we move along now to our next topic.

Shawn Johnson:
All right. Up next, the topic of guns and gun control. Leah Vukmir has an A+ rating from the NRA. Tammy Baldwin has an F. Tonight we hear first from Leah Vukmir. We asked her whether there should be measures in place to allow taking guns from people who demonstrate danger, as in so-called red flag laws. She speaks about a new law aimed at improving the national background check system in order to prevent felons and domestic abusers from purchasing firearms. Tammy Baldwin follows her with her support for universal checks.

Leah Vukmir:
That’s an area that I think needs to be investigated and looked at very carefully. As long as those laws are carefully looking at particular issues. For example, the Fix NICS bill that was done by Senator Cornyn, looked specifically at that, making sure that law enforcement and individuals have the information necessary when they see red flags. We also have to make sure we have a carefully-crafted law that looks at mental health issues, because that is a significant aspect that underlies a lot of these. And I’d rather look at those aspects before we start looking at taking away people’s guns from them. Because when you do that, you are taking away the ability of law-abiding citizens to protect themselves and that’s why I stand so strongly with that Second Amendment right and as you know, have been endorsed by the NRA.

Tammy Baldwin:
I’m a gun owner myself. And so I strongly support the Second Amendment. But I do not think that the Second Amendment precludes common sense safety legislation. At the federal level, I think we need to have a comprehensive universal background check with no loopholes for internet sales or going to gun shows and not having a thorough background check. And then I think we have to go beyond there. There are a number of provisions relating to, frankly, the ability to convert a semiautomatic weapon into an automatic weapon with a bump stock. And I think we should be considering these enormous magazines that can allow so many shots to be fired. Those aren’t needed for — those are weapons of war basically on our streets and we’ve got to step up.

Frederica Freyberg:
On this issue, let’s recall that Leah Vukmir’s first campaign ad featured her with a gun at her side. But of late, Vukmir is laying on the ads for the Tomah Veterans Hospital opioid controversy and the death of a veteran there of an overdose. In those ads, she blames Tammy Baldwin. For Baldwin’s part, she did discipline top aides over her offense’s response to that. She also released an ad describing her own mother’s struggles with addiction. So these are some of the other kinds of issues that are coming out in this U.S. Senate race in Wisconsin.

Shawn Johnson:
Yeah, it seems like election cycle after election cycle, there are people who think maybe this will be the year that the gun issue or gun control is kind of a centerpiece of the campaigns that we’re going to talk about for the next, you know, couple years. We had mass shootings in the past couple years that have really energized younger voters, for example. So the issue is very much in front of people. But when it comes to campaigns, general election campaigns, you do see it tend to fade off into the distance and something like Tomah, the VA becomes something that Leah Vukmir wants to highlight and Tammy Baldwin feels the need to step in and kind of stake out her ground, too.

Frederica Freyberg:
What do you think over the next fewer than six weeks, we should be expecting in this race?

Laurel White:
I think we’ll hear more about the Tomah VA scandal and I think we’ll hear about something that’s related to the Tomah VA scandal, the opioid epidemic. I think both women talk frequently about their different ideas for combating the opioid epidemic in Wisconsin. That’s something that we’ll continue to see. And I think that we’ll continue to see them getting very personal. We’ve seen that from Leah Vukmir in her first ads introducing herself to voters and we’re seeing that in a new way from Tammy Baldwin this time that we really haven’t from her in the past. Where she’s talking about her past, her mother’s addiction when she was growing up and things like that.

Frederica Freyberg:
I think we leave it there. And we thank you very much, Laurel, for joining us.

Laurel White:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
And finally tonight, another election special is on the horizon October 12th. That’s when Shawn and I will co-moderate a debate between the candidates running for attorney general.

Shawn Johnson:
Incumbent candidate Republican Brad Schimel and Democratic challenger Josh Kaul will be here for a one-hour live debate from 7:30 to 8:30pm on Wisconsin Public Television and Radio.

Frederica Freyberg:
That is Friday night, October 12th. I’m Frederica Freyberg with Wisconsin Public Television.

Shawn Johnson:
And I’m Shawn Johnson with Wisconsin Public Radio. Have a good night.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.
For more information on “Here & Now” 2018 election coverage, go to WisconsinVote.org.