Here & Now

Here & Now for May 22, 2020

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The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” what is safe to enjoy heading into this Memorial Day weekend? We will talk with Pat Remington with the UW Population Health Sciences Department. Plus, the struggles of reopening Wisconsin. Missy Hughes, Secretary-designee of Wisconsin’s Economic Development Corporation, joins us. And our weekly one-on-one with Governor Tony Evers, who gives up on COVID-19 restrictions amid Republican opposition. It’s “Here & Now” for May 22.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Memorial Day weekend is the unofficial launch of summer and one of the busiest tourist weekends in Wisconsin. This year, the landscape looks a bit different as the impact of coronavirus can be felt across the state. As you can see by this map, more than 10 Wisconsin counties have self-imposed restrictions in place based on the “safer at home” order. Those restrictions impact what businesses can open. Seven of Wisconsin’s 11 tribal communities also still have restrictions. The doors of businesses have swung wide open in the vast majority of the state and it is yet to be seen the impact that could have on the fight against COVID-19.

This week, Governor Tony Evers’ administration gave up the quest for any new statewide emergency rules to manage COVID-19 in Wisconsin. Evers says Republicans emboldened by a state Supreme Court decision erasing his stay-at-home order would never have allowed any such restrictions. I talked with Governor Evers earlier today, as we head into this holiday weekend. And, governor, thanks very much for joining us.

Tony Evers:

Thanks, Frederica.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why earlier this week in really what seemed like a rather sudden move did you withdraw your coronavirus rule plan?

Tony Evers:

Well, there’s only 24 hours in a day and all of us are focused on important things like getting some of this CARE money out to farmers and small business people and the Republicans made it clear. It wasn’t like a fight. It was a clear that they didn’t want to do anything that would restrict, do anything about restricting anything and they wanted– they didn’t want a statewide plan. They wanted a local plan. So, instead of fighting upstream against something that was just never going to happen, we’re going to be continuing to focus on the things that are important like testing and tracing and getting the right equipment, getting money out to farmers, and making sure that our small businesses get some get some resources. That’s what we need to focus on. And so, it just wasn’t worth the time.

Frederica Freyberg:

Was it a marker that partisan politics have gotten the better of public health?

Tony Evers:

Well, it got– it set a marker in saying that there will be never any restrictions on what might be a dangerous situation. You know, if we, if we did have a second wave or if we did have a surge, it’s likely at some point time we’re going to have to say, “Well, you can only have 50 people in this space rather than 500 people in this space,” but that just wasn’t going to happen. So, we will do the things we can do to make sure that people are safe.

Frederica Freyberg:

Are communications still happening between you and the Republican leadership?

Tony Evers:

Sure, we’ve talked a couple times this week, and, you know, talked about things like how schools can open up and making sure that you’re talking about the University of Wisconsin System. How we can communicate if there is a surge going forward. So, no, we are– it’s just the, first of all, the rule, the idea that there was going to be any grand bargain on this– and the Supreme Court kind of set the stage– just wasn’t an accurate one.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thursday, you allocated $100 million out of the federal CARES Act money toward helping long-term care facilities and emergency medical services, but that came the same day as our next guest in this program blasted you in a letter for what he said was ignoring nursing homes. Is that how this interaction though is going, notwithstanding some of the discussions you say you’re having?

Tony Evers:

Well, apparently, what the discussion we’re having with the leadership didn’t make it down to Representative Steineke. Clearly, we always had planned once the CARE money came in that we’re you know the long-term care facilities were the ones that really didn’t get any money or very little money from the previous federal allocation so this was going to happen and I know he made the claim that we hadn’t reached out to different organizations. We have constant conversations with people in those long-term care facilities. Heck, we’re trying to get in and make sure every one of those are tested so, you know, that communication didn’t happen from his leadership to him for some reason.

Frederica Freyberg:

Now, by far, the largest allocation in my understanding was a billion dollars that Wisconsin allocated to testing and contact tracing. Describe why those things are such a major focus?

Tony Evers:

Absolutely, well, that is how, if we have a surge and or if there is a second wave, this is how we’re going to have to contain this and it always has been the most important thing. The more people we test, the more people we can find out if they’re, they are ill and get them give them isolated and get the people that they’ve contacted isolated. As we do that across the state, we start to slowly start to manage this system. So it’s absolutely the most important thing, in addition to getting the equipment we need. And so, we’re doing well. I know we hit, I think, 9,000, almost 10,000 tests just today and we want to keep that up. We want to do 85,000 a week and as we do that, we’re able to you know make it less likely that any surge will happen.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Trump, as you well know, gets tested every day and he talks about that. Do you, likewise, get tested or take extra precautions?

Tony Evers:

I take extra precautions because I’m essentially self-quarantined at the executive residence or the capitol. There’s very few people that interact with me and the people that do have very few interactions either so there’s no use wasting a test on me because we are– my wife and I are essentially self-isolating in our lives right now.

Frederica Freyberg:

Just very briefly, with only about 30 seconds left. What do you think about much of the state being reopened heading into this holiday weekend?

Tony Evers:

Yeah, well, I’ll make it very clear. One thing we have to do is spend time reflecting upon those people that not only died in this epidemic, but obviously, paid the ultimate sacrifice, in our armed services over time. That reflection, I think, should give us an opportunity to think about staying closer to home. I think it is going to be a lot of people coming in from out of state and we– I think, you know, social distancing, doing the things that we need to do, as far as making sure that we’re doing the hygiene. Staying closer to home, I think, is the best recommendation I have, but Memorial Day is about that reflection and so hopefully people will be doing that.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right, Governor Tony Evers, thanks again.

Tony Evers:

Thanks a lot, Frederica. Take care!

Frederica Freyberg:

Governor Evers cited Republican pushback as his reason for abandoning statewide guidelines for reopening Wisconsin. For reaction, we talked to Assembly Republican Majority Leader Jim Steineke. He joined us early this afternoon. Representative Steineke, thanks for being here.

Jim Steineke:

Absolutely, thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Did the majority Republicans in Wisconsin get what they wanted when Governor Evers withdrew his coronavirus rule plan?

Jim Steineke:

No, I mean, I think what we wanted all along was the ability to sit down and craft a plan together and unfortunately after the Supreme Court case, the governor, in our initial conversation, pretty much said that he was planning on reintroducing the rule as he has had it before, without really giving us any indication he was going to negotiate with us and I think that’s kind of where things broke down and that’s where– why we ended up where we are today.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, is the status quo right now with counties imposing their own orders or not how the management of the pandemic should proceed in your mind?

Jim Steineke:

I think really it’s our best option right now given the fact that the administration isn’t really willing to work on a more regional plan. So having the local health departments, who have all of the same tools that the state does, having them do it in areas where there are greater impacts to the virus than some other areas, I think, does make some sense and we’ve are also said to the counties that if they need any additional tools or if there’s gaps in what they’re able to do, that they need to be able to do more, we’d be happy to talk to them about that.

Frederica Freyberg:

So at this point, it doesn’t seem as though the legislature will take up any kind of rules?

Jim Steineke:

No, I mean again what we’re– what we understand is the county and local health departments have the tools necessary. They’re– they deal with infectious diseases on a regular basis, much less covered and much less of an impact than the coronavirus has had, but they do have the tools at their disposal, and especially in a situation like this where the hotspots are localized in this state, I think it’s a reasonable way to attack this.

Frederica Freyberg:

It seems fair to say that the communication between the majority Republicans in the Legislature and the governor are strained, with your letter saying that Governor Evers was ignoring nursing homes coming the same time that he allocated $100 million to them. What is going on?

Jim Steineke:

Yeah, so that was– the letter went out before they made the announcement on the $100 million. Now, the fact is that $100 million, it’s a step in the right direction so I’m appreciative and I know the nursing homes are thankful to Governor Evers for providing that through the CARES Act, but the fact is, it is a much larger problem in nursing homes. 40% of the deaths come from nursing homes. Only 5% of the federal money went towards them. They’re going to need much more investment in the future, and I just wish the administration had talked to them about their needs before announcing the $100 million.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, will the majority Legislature draft measures to spend any state money for needs of the people like those needs. Earlier, you had said that you wanted to kind of wait and see what was coming in from the feds. Well, we now know that.

Jim Steineke:

Yep, so the truth is and as most people know that we don’t– the state doesn’t have any money. We had an $800 million surplus before the virus struck. That’s all but been wiped away. Going forward, we’re probably looking at deficits. So we don’t have the ability to spend money that we don’t have like the federal government does. So we have to be really fiscally conservative here going forward to make sure that we’re doing the right things because come January 1st, if there are no changes, we’re probably going to have to have cuts to the budget so we just simply don’t have state money to spend right now.

Frederica Freyberg:

What is your position as to whether or not you would like federal money to come into state government coffers?

Jim Steineke:

Yeah, so the federal government already gave Wisconsin about $2 billion through the initial round of the CARES Act. That was a large sum of money and I think an important step. What they do going forward, I’m not sure. That’s something they’re going to have to then negotiate but we’ll have to see. But right now I think we have to utilize that $2 billion in a way that assumes that we won’t be getting more from the federal government.

Frederica Freyberg:

Would you like to see though federal money coming in in any additional federal legislation that goes directly to state government, like government operations?

Jim Steineke:

As long as it is dealing strictly with dollars going for COVID relief, so we’re not paying for the mistakes of state governments over the course of a number of years and bad management practices. But if we’re, if we’re talking about just money to help support the relief efforts for the COVID-19 crisis, I’m all in favor of that, but I’m not in favor of propping up governments who made bad mistakes in the past.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right Majority Leader Jim Steineke, thanks very much for being here.

Jim Steineke:

Absolutely, thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Wisconsin’s political infighting has businesses and customers alike confused about how to handle the pandemic as we head into the holiday weekend. Tourism areas are preparing for an influx of crowds and tourists from Illinois and Minnesota will join Wisconsin residents heading to cabin properties. Lake Geneva has seen an uptick in business as the summer tourism season launches and yet social distancing is not always observed. The Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation offers advice and guidance to business owners on how to reopen with safety in mind. Secretary-designee and CEO of the WEDC, Missy Hughes, joined us earlier from Viroqua, and thanks very much for doing so.

Missy Hughes:

Good morning.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, even as Wisconsin starts to reopen, how bad is it out there for businesses and their workers across Wisconsin economically?

Missy Hughes:

You know, it’s been a real struggle for many businesses. Whether the businesses were considered essential or non-essential, managing this new normal that we’re all facing of keeping your customers and your employees safe has created challenges across the board. And then, of course, the economic impact of either having to close your doors or to have to reduce your operations has been really challenging for businesses.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, in fact, the WEDC created a kind of comprehensive reopen guidelines. This is kind of a cover sheet of your best practices for businesses. What are you hearing from them about whether they’re using your guides and taking them seriously?

Missy Hughes:

We’ve actually had a really fantastic response to the guidelines. We started creating those with the governor’s Badger Bounce Back plan, in order to help businesses be ready when the time came to open. I could only imagine how hard it is as a small business to be standing inside your baby that you’ve created and thinking about ‘how do I change my tables?’ if I’m a restaurant or I’m a retail shop, and I’ve arranged it all beautifully, and I need to be thinking about, ‘can I do social distance and how will that all work?’ and so, the guidelines were meant to really help businesses be ready when that time came to open. Businesses had to ask themselves hard questions about how to operate. The guidelines were meant to help, kind of, walk through that process. Because of the Supreme Court’s ruling with safer-at-home, we needed to, you know, speed that process up and I’m glad the guidelines were there to help businesses.

Frederica Freyberg:

You have specific guidelines across industries, but you also have kind of a set of general guidelines. What are those?

Missy Hughes:

The general guidelines are really kind of your first foray into how to address your business. So, thinking about social distancing, cleaning and disinfecting on a regular basis. What are those high-touch areas that need to be taken care of? Should my employees be wearing masks? What– you know, how do you work through all of that? And then, questions like, ‘What happens if one of my employees get sick? What should I do about that?’ and so, the general guidelines are really meant to help you kind of approach that initial set of questions and then for specific businesses like hairstylist, or restaurants, construction, we have other ideas and thoughts that you might want to consider.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, you just mentioned that employee– employers are encouraged to tell employees who are sick to stay home, but are employers required to provide sick leave?

Missy Hughes:

You know, one of the things that started just as we entered into this process was paid leave for employees, and so a lot of employers have taken that up because they want to make sure they have a plan in place. So, they want to encourage their employees to, you know, say, “Hey, I’m not feeling well,” so that their employees stay home.

Frederica Freyberg:

And employers are also encouraged under the guidelines to provide a personal protective equipment to their workers. But are there enough stocks of those out there right now for employers to provide that?

Missy Hughes:

Yeah, one of the things that we have heard from employers is challenges in finding the right equipment, whether it’s masks or gloves or Plexiglas. So, one of the things that we’ve done at WEDC is stand up our Wisconsin supplier network to be a location where you can resource PPE. So, we’ve had the Wisconsin Supplier Network for a number of years to connect businesses to businesses along the supply chain and we’ve added a feature where if you’re looking for PPE, you can go to the Wisconsin Supplier Network, which is wisconsinsuppliernetwork.com and find sources of PPE. Or, if you’re a provider of PPE, you can list yourself on there to help businesses find you.

Frederica Freyberg:

What in your mind is the best way for retailers or restaurants or bars to engender consumer confidence, which is obviously key to getting people back into businesses?

Missy Hughes

You know, I think really important is to be communicating with your consumers and your customers that you’ve taken into consideration their safety. So, whether it’s through signage or making sure that your employees are trained up and are communicating the steps that they’re taking, and just being really accountable and transparent about it is the best way. I came– before I came to WEDC, Organic Valley is an incredibly consumer-focused business, and that’s one thing that hasn’t changed through all of COVID: “the customers is right.” And so, thinking about your business from the customer’s perspective as they walk in through your doors, what do you want them to experience? And what do you want them to know that you’re thinking about?

Frederica Freyberg:

Secretary-designee and CEO of WEDC, Missy Hughes, thanks very much.

Missy Hughes:

Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

Ready or not, Wisconsin is reopening for business, including water parks, restaurants, bars and gift shops. So how do you know what activities are safe and how do you best protect your family? Professor Emeritus Pat Remington is with the University of Wisconsin Department of Population Health Sciences, and Professor Remington joins us this week with his insights. Thanks a lot for being here.

Pat Remington:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So, first, what is your belief as to whether or not the time is right to start reopening the economy?

Pat Remington:

Well, I certainly think it’s time. The question is not ‘when we do it’ but more ‘how we do it.’ We know there are risks of COVID-19 being transmitted from person to person and that risk will continue for a long time. So what we should do is understand the science and the evidence about how risk is determined. How the virus is transmitted from person to person. And then, once we understand that, then take those steps: baby steps at first, and then, eventually, work towards a complete opening of business.

Frederica Freyberg:

Even as we start to do this now, should we then expect spikes in positive cases?

Pat Remington:

Well, we will expect continued transmission. Despite the number of cases and the number of deaths, there’s a large portion of the population that’s susceptible. So we will continue to see transmission from person to person. What we want is those spikes to be very small and to be contained through isolation of sick individuals and then contact tracing. If we do that, then we can keep those spikes– what I like to think about is small grass fires that you can put out, as opposed to a big forest fire that overwhelms our health care system’s ability to care for people.

Frederica Freyberg:

Notwithstanding the fact that it’s almost become kind of a political message, is it your belief that we should all be wearing masks?

Pat Remington:

Well, I think wearing masks is an important demonstration of your concern about spreading the illness to others. And there’s good evidence: both epidemiologic, but also experimental that if you happen to be sick and not know it and you cough, or sneeze, or even breathe, that wearing a mask will keep the virus from spreading that’s– to that six-foot range. So, we don’t know if we’re sick. Lots of people don’t have symptoms or you develop– you are contagious before those symptoms develop so putting a mask on is just in case I’m sick and I don’t know it or just in case I’m about to become ill. I’m going to reduce the risk that I’ll infect someone else and there’s good evidence on that. So, it’s I think it’s a good thing to do. Particularly if you’re going to be in a shopping center or in a hair salon, closer than that six-foot range, that’s an extra a bit of insurance to make sure you don’t transmit the virus to someone else.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, speaking of which, I wanted to kind of tick down some of the kinds of activities that people might be doing and ask you whether or not it’s your belief that these are safe, including restaurants and bars. What about that?

Pat Remington:

Well, again, I think indoor spaces are higher risk than outdoors. So, if a restaurant or a bar can seat patrons out of– outdoors, then that will reduce the risk. Also, if we know that the six-feet is generally accepted distance that is safer than being closer to that. So, if it’s a restaurant or bar, that can seat people at a distance of six feet or more, then that makes it a safer. But anytime you go indoors, you are at risk of coming into contact with someone who might be sick. So, there’s a risk, but what we want to do is keep that risk as small as possible.

Frederica Freyberg:

You know, a lot of people are saying, “Well, pools should be safe because the chlorine kills the virus.” What about things like pools and water parks?

Pat Remington:

Well, again, I think– as long as people can stay physically distant, six feet or more, then outdoor places are better than indoor places. We know that from research studies. But the risk is that you go to a place like a pool and it gets crowded and all of a sudden, you don’t have that physical distancing but we know outdoors- the sun, the wind, just the drying effects- won’t help the virus be transmitted so that reduces the risk. And I think, as long as you can maintain that six-foot distance. Obviously, wearing a mask is not practical when you’re swimming so that extra protection won’t be available, but I think as long as you maintain physical distancing and engage in good hand hygiene, should you touch surfaces that might be contaminated, that those places will generally be safe for people to visit.

Frederica Freyberg:

You know, it seems like the kind of safer-at-home or stay-at-home orders has set in kind of a fatigue over all of that, and you’re increasingly see, kind of, groups of children at playgrounds. What about things like that, like play dates and even going back to school?

Pat Remington:

Well, I think it gets back to, again, understanding what the risks for transmission are. First of all, if you’re ill, not feeling well, obviously stay at home and self-isolate. But even if you’re well and you go out and you’re thinking you’re going to be closer than six feet to an individual, the use of a mask will reduce the risk substantially. So, I think that’s a good thing to do, should you gather in your backyard with neighbors. And then, finally, just engage in physical distancing. It’s not hard to set tables six feet apart. It’s not hard to have lawn chairs that are set far apart. I’ve seen it in our neighborhood. I’ve seen it down in the University Bay fields where people are gathering, but the chairs are spread far apart. That knowing what we know about the virus, being outdoors in the wind and the sun, and being physically distant, certainly there is a potential risk, but that risk is very small.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right, Dr. Pat Remington, thanks very much.

Pat Remington:

Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Thank you for watching “Here & Now.” Next week, a look at contact tracing as part of Governor Evers’ billion dollar push to keep COVID-19 under control. We hope you’ll join us. Stay well, Wisconsin! I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.