Here & Now

Here & Now for January 8, 2021

Announcer:

The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.

Frederica Freyberg:

Kenosha. No charges against the police officer in the shooting of Jacob Blake. A community is divided by the decision. Washington D.C., deadly violence as extreme Trump supporters ransack the U.S. Capitol even as the President watches the carnage on television. But Congress reconvenes certifying the Electoral College votes sealing the Biden-Harris victory and now there are calls for the removal of President Trump.

I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” U.S. Representatives Pocan and Grothman are here to reflect on the chaos this week at the nation’s capitol. The policing expert on the Jacob Blake case is here to explain his recommendation for no charges in the shooting. We’ll hear from a Kenosha community organizer who is also a Blake family friend. And Zac Schultz reports on the first week of the legislative session at the state Capitol. It’s “Here & Now” for January 8.

Announcer:

Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Mike Gallagher:

Mr. President, you have got to stop this. You are the only person who can call this off. Call it off.

Frederica Freyberg:

That was Wisconsin U.S. Representative Mike Gallagher in a Tweet during the siege on the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday. He went on to vote to certify the Electoral College votes of states as he had supported before the violent rioting. Our U.S. Senators Tammy Baldwin and Ron Johnson also voted to certify, though Johnson was fully behind voting to reject until the capitol was overrun. Of Wisconsin’s other members of Congress, only newly-elected Scott Fitzgerald and 7th District U.S. Representative Tom Tiffany voted to reject electoral votes. Those votes have the state’s largest newspaper calling for them and Senator Johnson to be immediately expelled from their seats or to resign as members of what’s been dubbed the “sedition caucus.” Tough words for actions in a failed attempt to overturn results of the election. In a moment, we will be joined by Republican U.S. Representative Glenn Grothman. Joining us now is Democratic Mark Pocan, U.S. Representative from Madison. And thank you very much for being here.

Mark Pocan:

Glad to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

At this point, you are among those calling to impeach President Trump, but why with only 12 days left in his term?

Mark Pocan:

Because with 14 days left in his term, we had an attempted coup on the U.S. Capitol and who knows what could happen in the remaining days. I mean Donald Trump is not normal by any stretch of the definition. No previous Democrat or Republican has brought so many of his followers into Washington D.C. when you’re there to certify the electors, asked them to march on to the Capitol. Egg them on for their actions. And we don’t know what else he could do in the remaining two weeks. Today Nancy Pelosi had to reach out to the head of the Joint Chiefs and worry about access to the nuclear codes in case Donald Trump would do something. It’s the Wall Street Journal. It’s the Association of Manufacturers, neither of which is a liberal organization. It’s Republicans and Democrats who are all calling for this right now because we have real concern for our country.

Frederica Freyberg:

Some Republicans say such moves just enhance divisions at a time when President-elect Biden is calling for unity.

Mark Pocan:

We absolutely should have unity but you can’t have unity if you’ve got someone who could do a dangerous action. The last time that there was a storming of the U.S. Capitol was in the War of 1812 by the British. So since this is something that Donald Trump did that hasn’t happened in several hundred years after following a pandemic that we haven’t had a 100 years, we’re starting to notice a pattern here. This President has acted in unprecedented ways and they have been unprecedented attacks on this country. Let’s face it, Donald Trump doesn’t care about the country. He cares about Donald Trump and his family and his family’s business. And I think people really woke up this week to that. But all the more we’ve got to protect our democracy and the integrity of the country. And you do that by either, one, having the cabinet do what they should do is invoke the 25th Amendment or, two, if they won’t, we have to do impeachment.

Frederica Freyberg:

What’s your response to Capitol Police losing control and allowing the building to be breached in that way?

Mark Pocan:

Yeah. It was sad. The feeling I still have is sadness from what happened the other day. One, I think there was some ill preparedness. They weren’t ready for what happened and they should have been better prepared. We lost one of the officer’s lives during this. And, you know, by the end of the day, they had 1800 people to make sure we could get the rest of the business done. I’m glad we went back immediately into session and got the business done that we had to. But it never should have gotten that far. We never should have had to worry about something like that. Donald Trump invited those people to come that day and he went to a rally and he and his family and his lawyer egged them on for their actions. So no one can act like Donald Trump is innocent on this and unfortunately, as you saw from the editorial, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and other places, they’re now referring to people as the “sedition caucus” who voted to overturn election results. None of this is normal. I’m just hoping that in a couple weeks we can get back to a place where business is done the way it traditionally has been done when Joe Biden is president. But in the next two weeks, I’m still very concerned for what could happen.

Frederica Freyberg:

I just wanted to point to this. How different do you think this would have been for the protestors had they been Black Lives Matter demonstrators?

Mark Pocan:

No question. There were only 55 arrests. During the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, there were over 200 arrests. This was a very poorly-executed effort and already, my committee, the Appropriations Committee, one of the subcommittees that has oversight over the Capitol Police is having a hearing. There’s probably going to be more reviews and reports done. The chief of the Capitol Police is resigning as are the sergeant-at-arms. This clearly was done poorly. And to say you’re going to go and arrest people after the fact, arrests that day would have helped quite a bit.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you have real concerns for the next days in terms of national security with Donald Trump still the sitting president?

Mark Pocan:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Donald Trump is so unpredictable. He’s such a narcissist. Who knows what else he could do? And that’s what I think our real worries are. He’s already been talking about being tougher on Iran. We don’t need to start a war in the last couple weeks of anyone’s presidency when you’ve got someone new coming in on January 20th. That’s why I think we’re so concerned and why we think not only does he have to be punished for what he did, which was an assault on our democracy on Wednesday, but we have to make sure that he doesn’t do any more damage to this country.

Frederica Freyberg:

Meanwhile, nearly lost in all of this, Democrats just won control of the Senate. What will Democrats do with this leadership?

Mark Pocan:

So it’s a tight margin. It’s a 50-50 Senate. The tie-breaking vote is going to be Kamala Harris, the vice president-elect. Our House margin is a relatively small margin. So it’s not like you’re going to see a lot of action happening on things that I might like to see as someone who’s more of a progressive Democrat. But it does mean that hopefully we can get some of the appointments through that we need to. We can get some basic bills that need to fix some of the damage that was done by the Trump presidency through Congress. But it’s not exactly a huge margin in either house.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. U.S. Representative Mark Pocan, thanks for joining us.

Mark Pocan:

Absolutely. Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:

We move to the other side of the aisle now. Republican U.S. Representative Glenn Grothman did not vote to reject the electors. He joins us from Fond du Lac. Thanks for being here.

Glenn Grothman:

Glad to be on the show as always and glad to be back in Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

I imagine. So as to the deadly violence at the U.S. Capitol, in a statement you condemned the rioters and put blame on Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump Jr. for encouraging the behavior of those insurrectionists. What about the President himself? What blame do you give him?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, I haven’t heard his statements, you know. First of all, when the kind of insurrection, whatever we call it, took place, I was in my office. So I followed things on TV rather than live. And on TV, they kept repeating Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump Jr.’s statements. So that’s why they were included in my press release.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about the rally before that? What about the rally that the President fronted before they marched down Pennsylvania Avenue?

Glenn Grothman:

Right. I’m not sure what he said. I will say this. I think there were irresponsible people who described this day as being more than it would be. Normally this is a very perfunctory vote to approve the Electoral College. It’s something you barely remembered when it was done when Donald Trump was sworn in. And I think led by some – I’ll call them irresponsible congressmen – the public was allowed to believe that this was going to be a much more significant vote than it was. And that’s why you had tens of thousands of people there, many of them very wonderful people from Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:

Many of those people wonderful people is what you’re saying now?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, there were tens of thousands of people west of the Capitol that you didn’t see on TV. And a lot of those people are very nice people. They were typical people that you’d see at any rally and I don’t think a lot of people were aware that they were around here as well.

Frederica Freyberg:

I want to ask your reaction to efforts to remove the President before his term ends in 12 days.

Glenn Grothman:

I think it’s a silly media circus. He’s going to end in 12 days. Why you would try to rush something through in the final 12 days and have Mike be President for one or two days seems kinda silly to me.

Frederica Freyberg:

Do you believe, as others do, that the President after this riot at the Capitol represents a national security risk in his remaining days?

Glenn Grothman:

No, I don’t think so. He’s said he’s going to go along with the transition. I expect the next 12 days to be as boring as the last 12 days of Barack Obama’s presidency.

Frederica Freyberg:

You say now that the U.S. Constitution is very clear that states determine their own electors, calling votes to reject results in Congress this week, you said both absurd and dangerous. But you also say that you almost did that yourself. What stopped you in the 11th hour? Was it a political calculation? What stopped you?

Glenn Grothman:

No. I think actually politically it might have been easier to vote the other way. I’m sure it would have been easier to vote the other way. Like I said, it was a very close decision, and I think the people who made the point of the importance of the Electoral College, the bad precedent you’re setting for the future is the reason why I decided to uphold the Electoral College. The other reason would be there are a lot of people who felt this election was — there was cheating going on and I think they need a voice as well and I sympathize with the congressmen who voted the other way.

Frederica Freyberg:

You describe it as a very close call for yourself and yet on the other hand, you talk about this being dangerous and absurd. But I just want to move on. You think that we do need to investigate election fraud, because, you say, Trump supporters believe the election was stolen. But hasn’t this been kind of asked and answered in the courts? There is no evidence for election-tipping fraud. Can’t you just tell your Trump supporters that?

Glenn Grothman:

Well, let’s go through things that are incontrovertible. Here in Wisconsin we had over 200,000, I believe, voters who claimed to be indefinitely confined who probably weren’t. We put up with that all the time, but I think that’s — people want to hear a little bit more about that. In other states, we had a judge in Arizona, where they don’t have same-day registration, extend the time to vote, which eventually was undone by the 9th Circuit. Now, I have a feeling that President Biden’s supporters will even like what comes out of there because people will realize that not that many new people voted. But nevertheless, it’s the type of thing that concerns people.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, it may concern people but you know as well as others, that the judges in these cases across the country and here in Wisconsin, many of them Trump judges, so-called, ruled there was no evidence to move these cases forward.

Glenn Grothman:

Well, let’s take the example in Arizona.

Frederica Freyberg:

You know what, sir? Actually, actually, I’m out of time and I’m sorry. I’m sorry to cut you off.

Glenn Grothman:

I’m sorry.

Frederica Freyberg:

With the Arizona example. But we look forward to talking with you again.

Glenn Grothman:

Absolutely. Okay. Very good.

Frederica Freyberg:

From Washington to Kenosha, where this week prosecutors decided no charges would be filed against the officers involved in the August shooting that left Jacob Blake paralyzed. Kenosha residents took to the streets in the wake of the decision, but remained peaceful in calling for change. “Here & Now” Reporter Will Kennelly reports from Kenosha.

Michael Graveley:

It is my decision now that I announce today before you that no Kenosha law enforcement officer in this case will be charged with any criminal offense.

Will Kennelly:

It was the decision that Jacob Blake’s family didn’t want to hear.

Jacob Blake Sr.:

We’re unhappy with what was said today. We expected it. It did not sideswipe us or jump us from the backside.

Will Kennelly:

Kenosha DA Michael Graveley says it would be too hard to prove officers last August did not shoot Blake in self-defense. The investigation laid out a timeline of what happened. Police first responded to a 911 call over a dispute about a vehicle. And when they arrived, they tried to arrest Blake on a domestic violence warrant.

Police Officer:

Did they get you under arrest?

Jacob Blake:

They Tased me.

Police Officer:

They Tased you? Ok.

Jacob Blake:

I ripped it out.

Police Officer:

Ok.

Jacob Blake:

I said don’t do that.

Police Officer:

You told them not to do that?

Jacob Blake:

They told me not to do that.

Police Officer:

Okay.

Jacob Blake:

So then they hit me again.

Will Kennelly:

Blake moved toward the car carrying a knife. The DA says police started shooting when Blake turned toward the officers with the knife.

Jacob Blake:

They didn’t have to shoot me like that.

Police Officer:

They didn’t have to shoot you like that?

Jacob Blake:

I was just trying to leave. He had options to shoot my tires, even punch me.

Noble Wray:

The officers involved in this used every one of the intervention options to try to restrain Blake during this situation. It was everything from presence, dialogue, hand techniques, diffusing techniques, to Tasers, to eventually unfortunately, really unfortunately was the use of deadly force.

Will Kennelly:

The decision drew protests from Kenosha residents, which remained largely peaceful. Members of Blake’s family want to turn that energy into action.

Justin Blake:

It’s time to put on some working boots and get in this game. We built this nation yet we don’t reap the benefits or the liberties that this nation has to offer. It’s outrageous. It’s unconscionable and it is in 2021.

Will Kennelly:

Reporting from Kenosha, I’m Will Kennelly for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

The man appointed by the state Department of Justice to recommend whether to charge the police officer who shot Jacob Blake says he struggled with seeing a Black man shot in the back but in the end described it as lawful but awful. We sat down with police reform consultant and former Madison Police Chief Noble Wray. Thanks very much for joining us.

Noble Wray:

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Frederica Freyberg:

Are you at peace with the recommendation you gave to the Kenosha DA not to charge the officer who shot Jacob Blake? And, if so, why?

Noble Wray:

I was at peace with coming to that conclusion, but I would never be at peace when a citizen, an African-American male, is shot on a city street in the United States.

Frederica Freyberg:

Because a friend of the Blake family and organizer in Kenosha lamented your and the DA’s decision saying that we should not live in communities where as Black people, “if you step outside, you’re fair game.” So you understand what she’s saying?

Noble Wray:

I understand it, and in so many ways. And that is the struggle because I understand it from a — you know, a police officer. Police officers, there are African-American police officers feel the same way. I understand it from a personal standpoint. I don’t — I feel that way. I have — like I said, I have sons. Now I have grandsons. I feel that way. It is like this heavy weight that sits over us that is kind of pervasive, that — it is a weight that the justice system — it just seems like it hangs over being Black in America.

Frederica Freyberg:

Under one police reform proposal in the state of Wisconsin, the standard for use of force would change to using deadly force only as a last resort. Would that have changed your recommendation had that been in place?

Noble Wray:

You know, don’t stop shooting until you stop the threat. I think that does deserve some more dialogue and understanding. I think by introducing a law that says the last resort would cause us to go back and look at that. In my report, that’s the last thing I ended on my report. I said that we still need to focus on the sanctity of life. And what I meant by that is just that. I don’t think we’re doing enough in this. The parameters that we have to use to judge this puts us in a framework where we don’t have the flexibility of being able to think out of the box. Now, obviously, those that are in the policing profession right now would probably push back on that. Because it is a tough job. It is tough when you are exercising and using deadly force, to make that in a split second decision with all of these things going on. But I do think the obligation for us to look at this as a last resort, but have a framework to work with, it would be really important.

Frederica Freyberg:

On another matter, and unrelated, what is your response to the U.S. Capitol Police basically losing control to the Trump mob, as it were, compared to response in Washington and elsewhere to Black Lives Matter protestors?

Noble Wray:

Clearly they were not prepared. Clearly there was a differential response. Everyone that watched the protests that took place in the spring and the summer, post-George Floyd, saw this. But the reality is is that they did not have enough. And it was painfully obvious they didn’t have enough.

Frederica Freyberg:

So you just described it as painfully obvious. What was your reaction when you saw that and realized that that was happening?

Noble Wray:

My reaction was from an African-American in this society is why is that happening that way? It almost appeared to be to me to come across as intentional. It was so obvious that there were not enough people. You have a national event taking place. But from a policing standpoint, I had mixed feelings, obviously. I knew that the officers that were out there were trying their best. They were trying their best to do it. So I’ve been in those situations, you know, given Mifflin Street on Halloween here in Madison, where you want to put people in their best position to succeed. I don’t think the leadership, Capitol Police, put those folks in the best position to succeed. And we’re very lucky that more did not happen in this whole thing or people were not hurt or potential loss of life.

Frederica Freyberg:

As to the Jacob Blake shooting, Noble Wray says in his view all officers in Wisconsin should be equipped with body cameras. Kenosha officers are not. The full-length interview with Wray can be seen at PBSwisconsin.org. Earlier in the week, “Here & Now” Reporter Marisa Wojcik sat down with Tanya McLean, executive director of Leaders of Kenosha and friend of the Blake family for reactions and next steps.

Tanya McLean:

Jacob is disappointed. I mean he’s laying paralyzed right now and he’s in a tremendous amount of pain constantly. So he’s extremely disappointed and saddened by Gravely’s decision. His father is saddened. The entire family is. Justin is extremely emotional. He’s just concerned for, you know, African descendants throughout this country that basically if you step outside, you’re fair game if someone says, well, I felt threatened. And that’s no way any of us should have to live. We’re demanding things now. This whole narrative of asking and all of that, we’re done with that, because, I mean, we’ve done all we can do. I mean, we’re marching, we’re protesting, we’re getting to the polls. We’re doing everything the correct way. We’re following protocol, right, as to how we want to see things change. We have lawmakers and officials say, well, just do this. Well, we’ve done everything. And people have been doing this for many, many years before us. And we’re still fighting the exact same fight. I was on a call last night and the question was asked what do we need to do. But we’re committed to continuing to fight. So there’s a large group of us. We’re going to be meeting to talk about different strategies because we know we have to be strategic about how we move forward. You know, all of us basically have had the wind knocked out of us. So we’re just trying to regroup and figure out the best way to make the things happen that we need to see happen in our communities and to stop all this — the police terror. Because that’s what it is. It’s police terror.

Frederica Freyberg:

You can watch the extended interview with Tanya McLean on our website. Now to the Wisconsin Capitol, where Assembly Republicans are already setting up their first showdown of the new legislative session with Governor Tony Evers, this time over the state’s COVID-19 response. “Here & Now” Senior Political Reporter Zac Schultz has the story.

Woman:

That I will support the Constitution of the United States.

Zac Schultz:

The biennial inauguration is supposed to be a bipartisan celebration of the new legislative session. For one day at least, Democrats and Republicans welcome new members and play nice.

Robin Vos:

Today we celebrate our Wisconsin bonds, not as Republicans or Democrats, even though Democrats aren’t here, but as Wisconsinites.

Zac Schultz:

But the pomp and circumstance of the day could not mask our state’s fractured and partisan response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Democrats in the Assembly did not even take the floor because Republicans would not mandate masks at this indoor event.

Tony Evers:

I’m absolutely jazzed to be here today and I want to offer my sincere congratulations to everyone getting sworn in.

Zac Schultz:

Some took the oath of office before the New Year, administered over Zoom by Governor Tony Evers. Others outside before a judge.

Woman:

My duty as state representative.

Zac Schultz:

Wisconsin’s COVID-19 response is also the first issue to reach the floor. Governor Evers reissued his bill from last December. Democrats introduced their own bill. But Republicans control the Legislature, so Assembly Bill 1 comes from them.

Robin Vos:

The proposal we are introducing today has over 44 provisions to help fight the virus and reopen our economy and our schools.

Zac Schultz:

The most controversial provisions include a civil liability shield for businesses, meaning they couldn’t be sued by employees who get COVID on the job. Banning a local health authority from shutting down religious services. Local school closures would be limited to two weeks, while local shutdown orders are limited to two days. After that the school board or local government would need to vote by a two-thirds majority for another two-week order. The bill passed Thursday on a party line vote, with Democrats debating the measure wearing plastic face shields while some Republicans did not wear a mask at all. It now moves on to the Senate where some Republicans say it doesn’t go far enough. Even if it passes there, Democrats say it faces a certain veto from Governor Evers. Reporting from Madison, I’m Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:

As to how the COVID relief package fares in his chamber, Senator Majority Leader Devin LeMahieu joins us next Friday, when he’ll also respond to the governor’s State of the State Address, being delivered remotely this coming Tuesday at 7:00 p.m. We will air that address on the Wisconsin Channel and livestream it on PBSwisconsin.org. Meanwhile, on Thursday the state announced that more than 110,000 vaccine doses have been administered to health care workers and nursing home residents. Our partners at WisContext have prepared a new data visualization of the vaccine distribution. It’s part of an ongoing series of charts and maps tracking the COVID-19 pandemic in Wisconsin. Again, that’s at WisContext.org. And that is our program for tonight. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.