Here & Now

UW-Madison Professor Leaving UW After Tenure Policy Changes

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AS WE MENTIONED, ONE HIGH-PROFILE UW-MADISON FACULTY MEMBER ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK SHE IS LEAVING THE UNIVERSITY FOR ANOTHER JOB IN ANOTHER STATE, CITING TENURE CHANGES AS A LEADING CAUSE. SARA GOLDRICK-RAB IS PROFESSOR IN THE SCHOOL OF EDUCATION AND FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF THE HOPE LAB, WHICH RESEARCHES COLLEGE AFFORDABILITY AND ACCESS FOR LOW-INCOME STUDENTS. THE LAB HAS BROUGHT MORE THAN $10 MILLION FEDERAL RESEARCH DOLLARS TO UW-MADISON. PROFESSOR GOLDRICK-RAB JOINS US NOW BY PHONE. AND THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE TENURE CHANGES THAT PROMPTED YOU TO LEAVE UW-MADISON?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

WELL, WHAT PROMPTED ME TO LEAVE HAS TO DO WITH THE CHANGE THAT SAYS THAT TENURED FACULTY CAN BE LET GO NOT BECAUSE OF ISSUES OF JOB PERFORMANCE OR BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL SITUATION OF THE INSTITUTION, BUT MERELY BECAUSE OF A DESIRE TO ALTER PROGRAMS THAT WE TEACH IN AT THE UNIVERSITY. UNDER THE NEW RULES, IF A PROGRAM IS BEING MODIFIED IN SOME WAY OR REDIRECTED IN SOME FASHION, WE CAN SIMPLY BE LET GO AND OUR SERVICE TO THE INSTITUTION NOTWITHSTANDING, WE WILL BE OUT OF A JOB.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE UNIVERSITY DISCONTINUING PROGRAMS IF THERE IS LOW ENROLLMENT AND PERHAPS THEY COST TOO MUCH MONEY TO JUSTIFY?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT THE ASSESSMENT OF WHAT COSTS TOO MUCH OR WHAT IS NO LONGER NEEDED IS NOT GOING TO BE UNDERTAKEN IN A WAY THAT PRIORITIZES THE EDUCATIONAL MISSION OF THE INSTITUTION. THE QUESTION OF WHAT STUDENTS NEED IN EDUCATION IS A DIFFICULT ONE, AND IN MANY CASES ENROLLMENT ON A YEAR-TO-YEAR BASIS IS A PRETTY POOR ASSESSMENT, ACTUALLY, OF WHAT THE INSTITUTION NEEDS OVER THE LONG RUN. WE’VE HAD PROGRAMS RISE AND FALL IN TERMS OF THEIR ENROLLMENT OVER TIME THAT OVER THE LONG RUN ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES. FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE STUDY OF EDUCATION, IT’S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A PERSPECTIVE ON EDUCATIONAL PHILOSOPHY. PHILOSOPHY HELPS US THINK ABOUT THE PURPOSES OF EDUCATION. BUT OVER TIME IN MY DEPARTMENT WE’VE HAD CHANGES IN THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS ENROLLING IN THAT AREA. DOES THAT MAKE IT ANY LESS IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL PHILOSOPHER? WELL ACTUALLY NO. THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE EDUCATION OF ALL OF THE STUDENTS IN THE PROGRAM. SO THIS IS A CASE WHERE, FOR EXAMPLE, AN EDUCATION PHILOSOPHER WHO HAD WORKED VERY HARD TO GET TENURE AND WAS MAKING A SERIOUS CONTRIBUTION COULD BE LET GO FOR THE WRONG REASONS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

PRESIDENT RAY CROSS SAYS TENURED PROFESSORS SHOULD NOT BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE JOBS FOR LIFE. WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

NO ONE BELIEVES THEY HAVE A JOB FOR LIFE. IT’S A VERY EASY THING TO SAY AND IT’S A HIGHLY INACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT BEING TENURED MEANS. BEING TENURED MEANS THAT IF YOU DO YOUR JOB WELL, YOU HAVE A JOB AND YOU CAN’T BE LET GO FOR CAPRICIOUS REASONS. THAT’S SOMETHING EARNED AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HAVING A JOB FOR LIFE. THAT’S REALLY A GREAT OVERSIMPLIFICATION, A WAY TO DISMISS THE IMPORTANCE OF TENURE TO THE CONTINUITY OF AN INSTITUTION’S HIGH-QUALITY PROGRAMMING FOR STUDENTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND WE DID SPEAK WITH RAY CROSS AHEAD OF SPEAKING TO YOU AND HE SAYS IN REACTION TO YOUR LEAVING THAT HE WISHES YOU WELL, HE VERY MUCH UNDERSTANDS YOUR GREAT ACHIEVEMENT, BUT HE SAYS YOU SHOULD CHECK TEMPLE UNIVERSITY’S TENURE POLICY BECAUSE IT MIRRORS UW’S NEW ONE. WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

NO. NO. I’M SORRY. THAT’S ENTIRELY INACCURATE. AND OF COURSE I CHECKED IT. I’M SOMEONE WHO DOES HER HOMEWORK QUITE THOROUGHLY. IF FACT TEMPLE UNIVERSITY’S POLICY IS ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH AAUP RECOMMENDATIONS AS TO THE CRITERIA FOR TENURE AND FOR WHEN ONE IS TO BE LET GO. UW’S IS NOW COMPLETELY OUT OF SYNC WITH THAT. THE AAUP HAS WEIGHED VERY STRONGLY SUGGESTING THAT RAY CROSS IS WRONG IN THIS MATTER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT’S YOUR EXPECTATION ABOUT WHETHER MORE FACULTY WILL BAIL ON THE UW FOLLOWING THIS WEEK’S VOTE?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

WELL, TO BE HONEST, I DON’T THINK ANYBODY IS BAILING ON THE UW. THE UW REALLY BAILED ON US. THE UW HAS CHANGED THE CONDITIONS OF OUR WORKING OVERNIGHT IN A WAY THAT HAPPENED REALLY, FRANKLY, WITHOUT REAL PUBLIC DISCUSSION OR DEBATE. THEY SAID THAT WE HAD VOICES AT THE TABLE, BUT THESE WERE MERELY ADVISORY AND NO REAL DECISION-MAKING OF THE FACULTY WERE INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS. WILL OTHER PEOPLE LEAVE? SURE. WILL TONS OF PEOPLE LEAVE? NO. BECAUSE THESE ARE JOBS AND PEOPLE FEEL LIKE IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT HAVING A JOB IS SIMPLY VALUABLE. THAT’S AN UNDERSTANDABLE THING. BUT WHO TEACHES AT THIS UNIVERSITY AND THE QUALITY AND THE WAY IN WHICH THEY TEACH WILL IN FACT SHIFT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BRIEFLY, WHAT ARE YOUR HEARING OUTSIDE OF WISCONSIN ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE TO THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM?

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

FRANKLY, I’M HEARING THAT PEOPLE ARE APPALLED. THEY’RE SHOCKED. THEY’VE LOOKED UP TO THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN AS A WHOLE AS A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN SPEAK FREELY AND WHERE THEY REALLY VALUE INTELLECTUAL DIVERSITY OF THOUGHT. AND THEY ARE SURPRISED TO SEE IT COMPROMISED IN THIS WAY. AND OF COURSE THEY’RE SCARED BECAUSE IN THIS WAY WE REALLY ARE GOING TO BE A VANGUARD FOR POLICY-MAKING IN OTHER STATES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

SARA GOLDRICK-RAB:

THANK YOU.