Here & Now

UW Journalism Professor Analyzes U.S. Senate Debate

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG WITH ANALYSIS OF TONIGHT’S DEBATE ON THIS SPECIAL LIVE EDITION OF “HERE AND NOW.” WE JUST SAW INCUMBENT U.S. SENATOR RON JOHNSON AND CHALLENGER FORMER U.S. SENATOR RUSS FEINGOLD IN AN AT TIMES CONTENTIOUS 60-MINUTE FACE-OFF. BEFORE THE DEBATE, HERE’S WHAT VOTERS WE TALKED WITH HOPED THE CANDIDATES WOULD COVER.

KAY LORE:

I DEFINITELY THINK TALK ABOUT TAX, CONTINUE ABOUT OBAMACARE.

KRIS PETERSON:

WISCONSIN’S ECONOMY. IMPROVING THE WISCONSIN ECONOMY. JOBS, CERTAINLY, FINDING MORE JOBS.

AIDA ZYGAS:

CLIMATE CHANGE AND TRYING TO COMBAT THE GREENHOUSE GASES. SO THAT’S SOMETHING THAT’S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME.

BRYAN VITO:

STUDENT LOAN DEBT IS A BIG ONE FOR ME.

BRAD HUTNIK:

ONE QUESTION I’D LIKE TO HEAR THEM ADDRESS IS EXPANDING RURAL BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS FOR RURAL WISCONSIN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL WE JUST SAW THE CANDIDATES DUKE IT OUT FOR THE LAST HOUR AND DID THOSE VOTERS HEAR WHAT THEY WERE HOPING FOR? WE GO TO UW-MADISON JOURNALISM PROFESSOR MICHAEL WAGNER. AND TICKING DOWN THAT LIST, THEY GOT TO A LOT OF IT.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

THEY DID. THERE WERE KIND OF 10 SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES THAT WERE DISCUSSED OVER THE COURSE OF THE DEBATE, PLUS THE “DO YOU SUPPORT YOUR PARTY NOMINEE?” QUESTION AS WELL. NOT EVERYTHING ON THAT LAST, BROADBAND QUALITY MAY BE AN EXAMPLE THAT DIDN’T GET ASKED. BUT IN GENERAL THIS WAS A PRETTY SUBSTANTIVE DEBATE FOR ONE HOUR AND TWO PEOPLE WITH SOME FOLLOW-UPS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YEAH. SO IF YOU HAD TO TAKE THE WHOLE THING AND ENCAPSULATE IT, YOU THINK THERE WAS A CLEAR WINNER AT ALL HERE?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I DON’T KNOW THAT THERE WAS A CLEAR WINNER. I THINK BOTH SENATOR FEINGOLD AND SENATOR JOHNSON DID A GOOD JOB EXPRESSING WHAT THEIR VIEWS ARE, WHY THEY HAVE THEM. THEY WERE CONSISTENT WITH ISSUES THEY’VE PRESENTED IN THE PAST AND VIEWS THEY PRESENTED IN THE PAST. I’M NOT SURE THERE WAS A CLEAR WINNER. I THOUGHT THAT SENATOR FEINGOLD WAS A LITTLE MORE ON MESSAGE WITH RESPECT TO THE ADS HE’S RUNNING THAN SENATOR JOHNSON WAS. JOHNSON SEEMS TO BE AIRING ADS SAYING FEINGOLD’S A CAREER POLITICIAN. AND HE DIDN’T REALLY BRING THAT UP A LOT DURING THE DEBATE UNTIL THE VERY END AT THE CLOSING. THE OTHER PARTS OF THE DEBATE HE WASN’T DOING THAT AS MUCH. BUT THEY WERE BOTH ANSWERING QUESTIONS AND NEITHER MADE AN ENORMOUS GAFFE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I GOT THE SENSE THAT IT STARTED KINDA SLOWLY, THEY KIND OF GOT THEIR FOOTING AND THEN NEAR THE END THEY REALLY WANTED TO GET THEIR JABS IN AND GET MORE AGGRESSIVE.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

YEAH. THE VERBAL KNIVES WERE OUT MORE IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE DEBATE THAN THE FIRST HALF FOR SURE. I THINK THAT’S RIGHT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW DIFFERENT DO YOU GAUGE THIS DIALOG BETWEEN THESE CANDIDATES AND THAT THAT WE’RE SEEING AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL BETWEEN THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

NIGHT AND DAY. I THINK THIS WAS TEN ISSUES PLUS A QUESTION ABOUT TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON IN ONE HOUR WITH FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS FROM THE MODERATORS, SO A LOT MORE SUBSTANCE WAS DISCUSSED. BOTH THE SENATORS WERE RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER IN TERMS OF NOT INTERRUPTING EACH OTHER. YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE IT WAS SOMEONE’S TURN TO GO. THAT SORT OF STUFF THAT WE’RE SEEING REALLY DOMINATE THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE WE’RE NOT SEEING HERE IN THE WISCONSIN SENATE DEBATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AGAIN AS YOU JUST SAID, THE FIRST QUESTION OUT OF THE CHUTE, AS ONE MIGHT EXPECT, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT’S GOING ON IN ELECTIONS RIGHT NOW, HAD TO DO WITH DONALD TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON. AND WE KNOW WHAT RON JOHNSON SAID AND I THINK WE HAVE A SOUND-BITE FROM THIS DEBATE ISOLATING THAT QUESTION TO THE CANDIDATES ON DONALD TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON. LET’S LISTEN.

RON JOHNSON:

I’M NOT GOING TO DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE, WHICH TRUTHFULLY IS KIND OF A MARKED DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MYSELF AND SENATOR FEINGOLD, WHO MUST BE ABOUT THE LAST AMERICAN WHO THINKS THAT HILLARY CLINTON IS TRUSTWORTHY. AND HE HAS COMPLETELY SUPPORTED HER, EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS DECADES, DECADES WORTH OF RECORD OF CORRUPTION, LYING BOLDFACE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, HER DERELICTION OF DUTY IN BENGHAZI.

RUSS FEINGOLD:

I THINK IT WILL BE VERY FRIGHTENING FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD IF WE ELECTED DONALD TRUMP. SENATOR JOHNSON HAS A CHANCE TO FOLLOW THE LEAD OF THE OTHER SENATORS, REPUBLICAN SENATORS, HIS COLLEAGUES WHO ARE ALSO IN TOUGH RE-ELECTION FIGHTS WHO HAVE SAID NO. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I’M NOT GOING TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP. I CHALLENGE HIM TO DO THE SAME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO HOW HARD IS IT FOR THESE DOWN-BALLOT CANDIDATES WITH THESE TWO CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

WELL, I THINK IT’S HARDER FOR PEOPLE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE BECAUSE THERE’S BEEN SO MANY THINGS DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID THAT HAVE CAUSED SO MANY PROBLEMS WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT CONSTITUENCIES. THESE CANDIDATES ARE GETTING PRESSURE FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE TO DISAVOW SUPPORT FOR TRUMP AND THAT SORT OF THING. BUT THEY’RE ALSO GETTING PRESSURE FROM A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BASE TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP. YOU SEE SENATOR JOHNSON TRYING TO WALK THAT LINE, SAYING I’M NOT GOING TO DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE, BUT WE SURE DON’T WANT HILLARY CLINTON. HE SAID IN HIS ANSWER THERE ARE LOTS OF AREAS WHERE I AGREE WITH TRUMP AND DISAGREE. HE DIDN’T NECESSARILY OUTLINE THE POLICIES THAT TRUMP HAD THAT SENATOR JOHNSON AGREED WITH, BUT HE DID TALK ABOUT THINGS HE DISAGREED WITH. SAYING I DO AGREE, BUT HERE ARE THE THINGS I DON’T LIKE AND THAT’S THE LINE THAT SPEAKER RYAN, SENATOR JOHNSON AND MANY OTHERS ARE TRYING TO WALK. IT’S BEEN HARDER FOR THEM I THINK THAN FOR FOLKS SUPPORTING HILLARY CLINTON.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, BECAUSE EVEN AS DONALD TRUMP COMES INTO WISCONSIN, WE NOTE THAT MANY OF THE TOP REPUBLICANS, INCLUDING RON JOHNSON, DON’T NECESSARILY APPEAR WITH HIM. THAT’S VERY UNUSUAL.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

THAT IS UNUSUAL. AND WE SAW SOME OF THAT GET THROWN BACK IN THE — KIND OF THE UNITY RALLY’S FACE WHEN SOME PEOPLE AT THE RALLY WEREN’T HAPPY THAT DONALD TRUMP OR MIKE PENCE WEREN’T THERE. ON THE OTHER HAND, RUSS FEINGOLD DIDN’T REALLY GIVE A FULL-THROATED SUPPORT FOR HILLARY CLINTON. HE SAID HE SUPPORTED SANDERS AND CLINTON. HE CERTAINLY KNOWS HIS CANDIDATE DIDN’T WIN THE WISCONSIN PRIMARY EITHER IF HE WAS FOR SANDERS. IT’S NOT REALLY CLEAR WHO HE WAS FOR. THE SAME GOES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE. THE PEOPLE WHO WON THE RACE IN THE WISCONSIN PRIMARY FOR PRESIDENT AREN’T THE CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT AND THAT’S KIND OF A UNIQUE SITUATION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT THEY SPOKE ABOUT WAS, OF COURSE, ISIS AND TERROR. THERE WERE KIND OF A LOT OF QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THE MILITARY AND SECURITY, BUT WE HAVE ANOTHER CLIP FROM THE DEBATE ON THIS TOPIC.

RON JOHNSON:

THEY’RE BEGGING FOR AMERICAN LEADERSHIP. WE DON’T NEED TO PROVIDE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF TROOPS. WE NEED TO LEAD. WE NEED TO PROVIDE THE AIR COVER. WE NEED TO PROVIDE THINGS LIKE NO-FLY ZONES. BUT AMERICA HAS TO LEAD. THEY’RE BEGGING FOR OUR LEADERSHIP AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN DOING SO. SENATOR FEINGOLD SAYS HE HAS A PLAN. THE PROBLEM IS IT’S PRESIDENT OBAMA’S PLAN AND AFTER MORE THAN TWO YEARS, CIA DIRECTOR JOHN BRENNAN SAID DESPITE OUR EFFORTS ISIS REMAINS A FORMIDABLE, RESILIENT, AND LARGELY COHESIVE ENEMY.

RUSS FEINGOLD:

THIS IS BEYOND POLITICS. THIS SHOULD BE WHEN WE TALK TO EACH OTHER AS FRIENDS AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO DESTROY THIS ORGANIZATION? WHAT YOU HEARD FROM SENATOR JOHNSON WAS NO PLAN AT ALL. I SPECIFICALLY BELIEVE THERE’S SEVERAL THINGS WE NEED TO DO AND DO MORE INTENSIVELY. FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO KNOCK OFF THEIR LEADERS. WE HAVE TO KILL THEM. THERE IS A SPECIAL FORCE STARTING THAT. THEY GOT THE NUMBER TWO GUY THEY THINK RECENTLY IN ISIS. BUT THAT NEEDS TO BE INTENSIFIED.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I REALLY THOUGHT THIS WAS EMBLEMATIC OF THE ENTIRE DEBATE IN TERMS OF THE TWO CANDIDATES’ STRATEGIES. YOU HAD ON THE ONE HAND SENATOR JOHNSON TAKING THE ANSWER ON DEFENSE SPENDING, TAKING THE ANSWER ON ISIS AND TALKING ABOUT THEM FROM A CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY POINT OF VIEW AND FROM A PARTISAN POLITICS POINT OF VIEW. SO HE OUTLINED HIS CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY, OPPOSING WHAT HE CALLED THE HOLLOWING-OUT OF THE MILITARY, WHICH HE REFERRED TO AT LEAST THREE TIMES DURING THE COURSE OF THE DEBATE. AND HE TALKED ABOUT HOW DEMOCRATS DON’T LIKE TO FUND THE MILITARY UNLESS THEY ALSO GET SOMETHING FOR SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAT SENATOR JOHNSON SAID DON’T WORK. SO HE WAS REALLY ARTICULATING CONSERVATIVE PHILOSOPHY AND THEN TALKING PARTISAN POLITICS. SENATOR FEINGOLD IN ALMOST EVERY ANSWER TALKED ABOUT BEING BIPARTISAN, GOING TO 72 COUNTIES AND LISTENING, HEARING WHAT IT IS PEOPLE HAVE TO SAY. AND ON THOSE DEFENSE ANSWERS TALKED A LOT ABOUT HOW HE WANTED TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS IN WAYS THAT HE COULD AGREE WITH SOME REPUBLICANS ON. SO I THINK THEY WERE OUTLINING DIFFERENT STRATEGIES, SENATOR JOHNSON MORE THE PARTISAN BATTLER AND SENATOR FEINGOLD MORE THE BIPARTISAN PERSON TO TRY TO WORK ACROSS PARTY LINES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALTHOUGH THE ONE THING I DO KNOW ABOUT RUSS FEINGOLD TOO, WE HEARD IT HERE TONIGHT AND HE HAS SAID IT BEFORE THAT HE THINKS THERE SHOULD BE MORE MONEY FOR THE MILITARY, AT LEAST TO THE EXTENT THAT THERE NEED TO BE MORE SPIES, MORE FBI, MORE CIA, SO PERHAPS THAT’S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TAKE.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

HE DID SAY THAT TONIGHT. HE ALSO SAID HE THOUGHT SPENDING OUGHT TO BE TAILORED TO THE PARTICULAR KINDS OF THREATS WE FACE. SO HIS ANSWERS WERE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN WE TEND TO HEAR FROM DEMOCRATS ON THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU KNOW, JUST WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE TWO CANDIDATES RUNNING, BOTH SENATORS, ONE FORMER, ONE CURRENT, THE FORMER SENATOR WORKING PRETTY CLOSELY ON THESE VERY TYPES OF ISSUES DURING HIS TENURE AND NOW THE CURRENT SENATOR BEING THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HOMELAND SECURITY COMMISSION, AS WELL AS BEING ON THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE. SO IT’S ALMOST LIKE THEY LOOK AT EACH OTHER WHEN THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES THINKING, “YEAH, REALLY? I THINK I KNOW BETTER.”

MICHAEL WAGNER:

THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF THAT. AND SOME OF THE MORE FIERY MOMENTS OF THE DEBATE WERE I THINK ABOUT THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES WHEN SENATOR FEINGOLD ALL BUT CALLED SENATOR JOHNSON A LIAR AFTER ONE OF THOSE ANSWERS RELATED TO SOME OF THOSE ISSUES RELATED TO–CARE OF VETERANS IN PARTICULAR. AND SO WE SAW THAT. AND IT WAS CLEAR, I THINK, THAT THEY BOTH WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANT ROLE WISCONSIN SENATORS PLAY IN FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS. THEY HAVE VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF THE WORK THEY’VE DONE WHILE IN OFFICE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT ABOUT THAT DYNAMIC WHERE RON JOHNSON STILL BELIEVES HIMSELF TO BE THE NON-CAREER POLITICIAN EVEN THOUGH HE IS THE CHAIR OF A COMMITTEE AND RUSS FEINGOLD NOW COMES AS THIS OUTSIDER CHALLENGER? ARE THOSE — ARE THESE UNUSUAL DYNAMICS?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

A LITTLE BIT, YOU KNOW, BUT SENATOR JOHNSON HAS NOT BEEN IN POLITICS AS LONG AS SENATOR FEINGOLD HAS. BUT WHEN YOU’RE THE INCUMBENT SENATOR AND SERVED FOR SIX YEARS, IT’S HARD TO PAINT YOURSELF AS AN OUTSIDER AS COMPARED TO SOMEONE ELSE. I THINK JOHNSON’S VIEW IS WELL FEINGOLD HAS BEEN IN OFFICE AND BEEN A POLITICIAN WAY LONGER THAN I HAVE. THAT’S HIS CAREER. I DID SOMETHING ELSE AND THEN DECIDED TO SERVE, BUT I WANT TO DO IT AGAIN. IT’S THE BUT I WANT TO DO IT AGAIN THAT MAKES HIM MORE LIKE A CONVENTIONAL POLITICIAN. SOMEONE SEEKING RE-ELECTION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND YET RON JOHNSON HAS NOW SAID THAT HE WOULDN’T RUN FOR RE-ELECTION IF HE WON.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

THAT’S RIGHT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

WELL, THAT’S A LITTLE BIT OF AN EASIER PLEDGE TO MAKE WHEN YOU ARE SAY NORTH OF 50 AND IN THE U.S. SENATE BECAUSE THE TERMS ARE LONGER AND SO COMMITTING TO A TERM LIMIT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT EASIER TO DO. THE HISTORY OF THESE IN POLITICS — NOT SPEAKING FOR SENATOR JOHNSON AT ALL, BUT IN POLITICS IS THAT USUALLY WHEN PEOPLE MAKE A TERM LIMIT PLEDGE, THEY FIND A WAY TO WEASEL OUT OF IT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT VETERANS AND THOSE ISSUES AND HOW CONTENTIOUS THIS GOT, THIS ISSUE GOT DURING THIS DEBATE. LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP WE HAVE ON THAT.

RON JOHNSON:

I’M NOT QUITE SURE WHY SENATOR FEINGOLD OR HIS STAFF DIDN’T RAISE THE ALARM BELLS WHEN THEY GOT MEMOS ADDRESSED TO– HAND-DELIVERED TO SENATOR FEINGOLD OR GIVEN TO REPS OF SENATOR FEINGOLD LAYING OUT THE PROBLEMS WITH TOMAH, DESCRIBING CANDY MAN, CALLING IT CANDY LAND. NOTHING HAPPENED IN 2008, 2009. IS THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS STAFF DIDN’T CARE OR SENATOR FEINGOLD DIDN’T?

RUSS FEINGOLD:

IT’S A SAD MOMENT WHEN A SENATOR FROM WISCONSIN SAYS SOMETHING HE KNOWS FOR SURE IS NOT TRUE. IT WAS TESTIMONY BEFORE HIS COMMITTEE THAT MADE IT VERY CLEAR MY OFFICE NEVER RECEIVED ANYTHING OF THE KIND. AND IN FACT THIS TRAGEDY OCCURRED FIVE YEARS LATER OR SEVERAL YEARS LATER UNDER SENATOR JOHNSON’S WATCH. SO THIS IS A SAD MOMENT, WHEN SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS FOR SURE THAT SOMETHING IS UNTRUE REPEATS IT BECAUSE HE’S A POLITICIAN WHO’S TRYING TO GET RE-ELECTED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHO DO YOU THINK WON THAT?

MICHAEL WAGNER:

I THOUGHT THAT THE BEGINNING OF THAT WAS SENATOR JOHNSON’S STRONGEST MOMENT OF THE NIGHT, TALKING PASSIONATELY ABOUT VETERANS, TALKING ABOUT HOW EIGHT VETERANS ARE ON HIS STAFF AND GOING AFTER SENATOR FEINGOLD PRETTY AGGRESSIVELY. THE SAD MOMENT I THINK COMMENT FROM FEINGOLD IS ONE WE’LL PROBABLY SEE A LOT IN CLIPS IN THE COMING DAYS. HE FOUGHT BACK HARD AT WHAT WAS JOHNSON’S STRONGEST MOMENT OF THE NIGHT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. MIKE WAGNER, WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE WITH US.

MICHAEL WAGNER:

MY PLEASURE.