Here & Now

Ross And Esenerg Discuss New Report On Act 10

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE DNR SAW A NUMBER OF RETIREMENTS, AS DID OTHER STATE AGENCIES, AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 IN 2011. THAT LAW ELIMINATED MOST PUBLIC SECTOR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS. A NEW STUDY BY THE CONSERVATIVE WISCONSIN INSTITUTE FOR LAW AND LIBERTY SAYS THAT NOTWITHSTANDING THE DIRE PREDICTIONS, ACT 10 SAVED THE STATE $5 BILLION AND HAS HAD LITTLE NEGATIVE IMPACT ON TEACHERS OR STUDENTS. TO THIS SOME MIGHT SAY, REALLY? WE HAVE BOTH SIDES TONIGHT. ATTORNEY RICK ESENBERG IS PRESIDENT OF THE WISCONSIN INSTITUTE OF LAW AND LIBERTY AND JOINS US FROM MILWAUKEE. SCOT ROSS IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ONE WISCONSIN NOW, A LIBERAL GROUP OPPOSED TO ACT 10. HE’S HERE IN MADISON. WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT AT WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION WE ARE STATE EMPLOYEES. THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING HERE.

RICK ESENBERG, SCOT ROSS:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FIRST TO YOU, RICK ESENBERG, IN MILWAUKEE. ACT 10 SAVED $5 BILLION. YOUR STUDY SAID THAT TEACHERS’ AVERAGE SALARY IS $2,000 LOWER AND FRINGE BENEFITS ARE $5500 LOWER AFTER THE LAW. WHAT ABOUT THAT IMPACT?

RICK ESENBERG:

WELL, WHAT WE WANTED TO DO IS WE WANTED TO TRY TO ASSESS WHAT THE IMPACT OF ACT 10 WAS. AND ANY SOCIAL SCIENTIST WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN’T SIMPLY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS BEFORE ACT 10 AND THEN LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AFTER ACT 10 AND ASSUME THAT ACT 10 CAUSED THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING THAT AFFECT TEACHER SALARIES, THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS, THAT TYPE OF THING. AND SO WE DID WHAT IS CALLED A DIFFERENCE IN DIFFERENCE ANALYSIS. THAT IS, WE COMPARED THE TRENDS BEFORE ACT 10 AND AFTER ACT 10 TO WHAT’S HAPPENING IN STATES SURROUNDING WISCONSIN. AND WE FOUND THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO DIFFERENCE, COMPARED TO OTHER STATES, POST-ACT 10, IN TEACHER-STUDENT RATIO, NO DIFFERENCE POST-ACT 10 IN ADMINISTRATOR TO STUDENT RATIOS AND THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO DIFFERENCE IN GROSS TEACHER COMPENSATION. THAT IS, THE ENTIRE AMOUNT THAT IS BEING PAID OUT IN TEACHER SALARIES HAS NOT CHANGED COMPARED TO OTHER STATES POST-ACT 10. WHAT HAS CHANGED IS BASE TEACHER SALARIES. THAT HAS GONE DOWN. BUT YOU’D EXPECT THAT WITH A LAW LIKE ACT 10 BECAUSE IT PERMITS SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO SHIFT COMPENSATION FROM BASE SALARY TO THINGS LIKE MERIT PAY BONUS. WE CAN’T SAY TO WHAT EXTENT THAT HAS HAPPENED, BUT WE CAN SAY THAT COMPARED TO OTHER STATES, EVERYTHING — ACT 10 HAS HAD VERY, VERY LITTLE IMPACT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SCOT ROSS, TO YOU.

SCOT ROSS:

WELL, I’D SAY IF YOU’RE A TEACHER, A PARENT OR A STUDENT IN PUBLIC SCHOOL AROUND THE STATE OF WISCONSIN YOU’D SAY THAT THE NUMBERS MAY SAY ONE THING, BUT THE REAL STORIES ARE MUCH DIFFERENT. AND THE FACT IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN UNDER ASSAULT, OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND HIS ADMINISTRATION TO THE TUNE OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS STRIPPED AWAY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS. PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE THE WAY IN WHICH KIDS GET OUT OF POVERTY. IT’S THE WAY PEOPLE GET A GOOD MIDDLE CLASS LIFE, A GOOD MIDDLE CLASS JOB. WE’VE ALREADY SEEN THE FACT THAT THESE ENTITIES, ENTITIES LIKE PROFESSOR ESENBERG’S, PROVIDING PROPAGANDA BASICALLY TO SAY, LISTEN, WE CUT MONEY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT IT’S NOT HURTING PUBLIC SCHOOLS. AND I THINK AS YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE REFERENDA ALL OVER THE STATE OF WISCONSIN, YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE SEEING $200 LESS PER PUPIL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE SEEING $900 MORE PER PUPIL? I THINK THAT’S THE STORY THAT PROFESSOR ESENBERG’S STUDY IS MISSING, AND INTENTIONALLY SO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RICK ESENBERG, YOUR STUDY ALSO SAYS WISCONSIN CANNOT BLAME DECLINES IN THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS ON ACT 10. WHY NOT?

RICK ESENBERG:

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RAW NUMBERS, YOU SEE THAT THE TEACHING WORK FORCE DECLINED BY ABOUT 2.2% PRIOR TO THE ENACTMENT THE OF ACT 10 AND HAS BEEN ESSENTIALLY FLAT AFTER ACT 10. AND THAT SHOULDN’T SURPRISE US EITHER BECAUSE THE WHOLE PURPOSE BEHIND ACT 10 WAS TO AVOID ATTEMPTING TO CLOSE THE BUDGET GAP WITH CUTS IN SERVICES. YOU KNOW, SCOT CAN SAY THAT THE REALITY IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT THE NUMBERS SHOW. HE CAN SAY THAT WE’RE ENGAGED IN PROPAGANDA. BUT I WOULD INVITE HIM OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION TO TRY TO REPLICATE THE STUDY THAT WE DID. WE RELIED ON PUBLICLY AVAILABLE DATA. WE WERE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT WE DID. ANYBODY ELSE WHO WANTS TO CONDUCT THE SAME ANALYSIS THAT WE CONDUCTED AND SEE IF THEY REACH THE SAME RESULTS IS FREE TO DO SO. ANYBODY WHO THINKS THAT THERE’S SOME OTHER ANALYSIS, SOME OTHER STUDY THAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH ACT 10, WE WOULD WELCOME THAT. WE BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE DID IS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED STUDY ON THE IMPACT OF ACT 10 TO DATE. BUT WE SAID IN OUR REPORT, THERE ARE OTHER QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED. THERE IS OTHER RESEARCH TO BE DONE. AND WE WOULD WELCOME — AND WE’RE GOING TO TRY TO DO SOME OF THAT AND WE WOULD WELCOME SCOT’S ORGANIZATION OR ANYBODY ELSE TO DO THEIR OWN WORK AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEBATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I WANT TO CUT IN HERE JUST A MINUTE AND SAY THAT STATE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT TONY EVERS SAYS PART OF WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE PASSAGE OF ACT 10 WAS THE VILIFICATION OF TEACHERS AND THAT’S ONE REASON THE STATE FACES WHAT HE CALLS A LOOMING TEACHER SHORTAGE. SCOT, DOES THAT FEELING PERSIST ON THE PART OF TEACHERS?

SCOT ROSS:

ABSOLUTELY. I TALK TO TEACHERS ALL THE TIME. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY SAY TO ME IS WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU ATTENDED A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION CEREMONY WHERE THE VALEDICTORIAN GOT UP THERE AND SAID I WANT TO BE A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER IN WISCONSIN PUBLIC SCHOOLS? IT’S NOT. BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A CONCERTED EFFORT BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND PAID PROPAGANDISTS LIKE RICK ESENBERG TO PROVIDE A FORUM IN WHICH TEACHERS ARE VILIFIED. PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE VILIFIED AND THEY STEAL MONEY FROM OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND GIVE IT TO PRIVATE, UNACCOUNTABLE ENTITIES. WE HAVE SEEN THESE MASSIVE CUTS TO PUBLIC EDUCATION. GOVERNOR WALKER OWES HIS ELECTION AND HIS MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATURE TO THE PRIVATIZATION INDUSTRY. FOR INSTANCE, THE BRADLEY FOUNDATION WHICH HAS GIVEN RICK $4 MILLION OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS. THAT’S HIS CAMPAIGN CHAIR. THEY WANT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO BE PRIVATIZED AND THIS IS PROPAGANDA.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

RICK, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO SAY TEACHERS FELT AND STILL FEEL VILIFIED AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 AND THE IMPACT OF THAT?

RICK ESENBERG:

YEAH. WE WERE IN A DIFFICULT POSITION IN 2010. WE HAD AVOIDED DIFFICULT BUDGETARY DECISIONS BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL STIMULUS PACKAGE THAT WAS RUNNING OUT. NOW, GOVERNOR WALKER, HE COULD HAVE RAISED TAXES SIGNIFICANTLY. COULD HAVE DONE THAT. HE CHOSE NOT TO. HE COULD HAVE SIMPLY DECIDED TO ADOPT A SET OF POLICIES THAT WOULD INVOLVE DRAMATIC CUTS IN THE TEACHING WORK FORCE IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. HE CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT. HE CHOSE A THIRD WAY. ACT 10 REPRESENTED THAT THIRD WAY. IT SAVED TAXPAYERS MONEY AND DID NOT HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON STUDENT-TEACHER RATIOS, ADMINISTRATOR-STUDENT RATIOS. IT DIDN’T HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON TEACHER SALARIES. IT DIDN’T HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE EXPERIENCE LEVEL OF TEACHERS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALSO LOOKED AT. LOOK, I UNDERSTAND THE TALKING POINTS. I UNDERSTAND THAT SCOT WANTS TO GET UP THERE AND SAY BRADLEY FOUNDATION AND CONSERVATIVE AS OFTEN AS HE CAN. BUT MATH IS UNFORGIVING AND THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS AND THIS IS HOW THEY CAME OUT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO GIVE THE LAST RESPONSE TO SCOT ROSS. AND I ASK, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES THAT YOU AND OTHERS PREDICTED AS A RESULT OF ACT 10 DID NOT MATERIALIZE?

SCOT ROSS:

NO. THEY HAVE MATERIALIZED. WE DON’T KNOW HOW MANY YOUNG, BRIGHT COLLEGE GRADUATES DIDN’T GO INTO TEACHING SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE FIVE-YEAR VILIFICATION OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS BY GOVERNOR WALKER AND HIS PAID PROPAGANDISTS OUT THERE. IT’S VERY SIMPLE. WHEN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SCHOOL RATIO THING, WISCONSIN USED TO LEAD THE NATION IN SMALLER CLASS SIZES. US NOW BEING WITH THE REST OF THE PACK IS NOT HELPING PUBLIC SCHOOLS. MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT’S NOT HELPING PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SCOT ROSS, RICK ESENBERG, THANKS VERY MUCH.

RICK ESENBERG, SCOT ROSS:

THANK YOU.