Here & Now

Nick Gansner and Ed Hughes On Student's BB Gun Expulsion

AND IN MADISON, THINKING THE CONSEQUENCE WAS TOO HARSH, THE PARENTS OF A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY WANTED HIS MIDDLE SCHOOL EXPULSION HEARING TO BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC AND IT WAS. SO TONIGHT WE TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES SURROUNDING DEREIAN BROWN’S CASE BEFORE THE DISTRICT. THE SIXTH GRADER WAS ACCUSED OF BRINGING A BB GUN TO SCHOOL AND SUBJECT TO THE HARSHEST DISCIPLINE, BEING EXPELLED. BUT DEREIAN BROWN’S LAWYER ARGUED HIS CASE AS A GOOD STUDENT WITH NO PRIOR DISCIPLINE PROBLEMS. THE SCHOOL BOARD UPHELD HIS EXPULSION BUT FOLLOWING A 15 DAY SUSPENSION ALLOWED HIM TO RETURN TO SCHOOL. HE MAY BE ABLE TO HAVE THE EXPULSION REMOVED FROM HIS RECORD. THE MADISON DISTRICT CHANGED ITS ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY THAT CRITICS SAID CREATED A SCHOOL-TO-PRISON PIPELINE BY CRIMINALIZING STUDENTS AND FORCING THEM FROM SCHOOL. STILL DEREIAN BROWN’S CASE BRINGS UP ISSUES OF DISCIPLINE AS THEY RELATE TO THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP AND OPPORTUNITY. WE’RE JOINED BY ATTORNEY NICK GANSNER AND MADISON SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER ED HUGHES. THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING HERE. FIRST TO YOU, NICK. WHY, IN THE FAMILY’S VIEW, WAS THE DISCIPLINE TOO HARSH?

NICK GANSNER:

WELL, I THINK TO PUT IT MOST SUCCINCTLY, THEY FELT LIKE THE PUNISHMENT DID NOT FIT THE ALLEGED OFFENSE. DEREIAN WAS ACCUSED OF POSSESSING A BB GUN AT SCHOOL. THAT WAS THE ACCUSATION BY THE DISTRICT. HE WAS NEVER SEEN POSSESSING A BB GUN. HE ALLEGEDLY ADMITTED TO AN ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL THAT HE POSSESSED IT, BUT HE NEVER BRANDISHED IT, HE NEVER TOOK IT OUT. IT WAS PURPORTEDLY IN HIS BACKPACK THE ENTIRE TIME THAT HE HAD IT. HE NEVER THREATENED ANYONE. HE NEVER ENDANGERED ANYONE WITH IT. SO WHILE THE ALLEGATION WE WOULD SUGGEST THAT THAT ALLEGATION WAS NOT PROVEN WAS SUCH, HE REALLY DIDN’T ENDANGER ANYONE. FURTHERMORE, HE’S REALLY AN EXTRAORDINARY CHILD. HE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF GOOD GRADES, EXCELLENT PARTICIPATION IN ALL HIS CLASSES AT THOREAU ELEMENTARY AND AT CHEROKEE MIDDLE SCHOOL. ALL OF HIS TEACHERS SPEAK GLOWINGLY OF HIM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO ED HUGHES WHY IS THE DISTRICT’S POLICY SO STRICT EVEN ON A BB GUN EVEN IN A CASE LIKE THIS?

ED HUGHES:

WELL, FREDERICA, OUR FIRST OBLIGATION REALLY IS TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF OUR SCHOOLS, OUR STUDENTS AND OUR TEACHERS. AND SO THE LIST OF EXPELLABLE OFFENSES IN THE MADISON SCHOOL DISTRICT HAS REALLY BEEN DECREASED OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AS WE’VE TAKEN A GOOD LOOK AT OUR BEHAVIOR EDUCATION PLAN AND TRIED TO KEEP STUDENTS IN SCHOOL AS MUCH AS WE CAN BECAUSE STUDENTS DON’T LEARN WHEN THEY’RE NOT THERE. SO THE LIST OF EXPELLABLE OFFENSES WE HAVE NOW IS REALLY NARROWED DOWN TO BRINGING WEAPONS TO SCHOOL AND DRUG TRANSACTIONS IN SCHOOLS AND WE THINK THESE ARE VERY SERIOUS OFFENSES. AND SO WHEN STUDENTS DO CONDUCT THAT MEETS THE NARROW GROUNDS WE’VE IDENTIFIED, THEN THE CONSEQUENCES ARE WHAT’S SPELLED OUT IN OUR PLAN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND SO EVEN UNDER THE KIND OF NEW BEHAVIOR EDUCATION PLAN, THIS STUDENT’S DISCIPLINE WOULD NOT HAVE LOOKED DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT RISES TO THE LEVEL OF THAT EXPELLABLE OFFENSE.

ED HUGHES:

RIGHT. RIGHT. AND, TOO, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT AN EXPELLABLE OFFENSE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EXPULSION, WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT IS REMOVING THE STUDENT FROM THE SCHOOL FOR LONGER THAN FIVE DAYS BECAUSE THAT’S THE MAXIMUM PERIOD OF A SUSPENSION. SO WHEN YOU HAVE SOME CONDUCT THAT WE THINK REQUIRES REMOVAL FROM THE CLASSROOM FOR MORE THAN FIVE DAYS, EXPULSION IS A PROCESS. BUT IF A STUDENT IS EXPELLED, THEY’RE NOT THROWN OUT OF SCHOOL FOR GOOD. WE TRY AND GET THEM BACK IN SCHOOL AS SOON AS WE CAN AND FORTUNATELY DEREIAN IS BACK IN SCHOOL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NICK GANSNER IN YOUR MIND IS THERE ENOUGH ROOM EVEN UNDER THE CURRENT POLICIES TO ACCOUNT FOR A STUDENT LIKE DEREIAN WHO HAD NO PRIOR DISCIPLINE OR ACADEMIC PROBLEMS?

NICK GANSNER:

AS I READ THE POLICY AND I THINK AS MR. HUGHES WOULD EXPLAIN IT, NO. NOT AS IT GOES TO A DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE WILL BE EXPELLED. AND ONE POINT THAT I THINK IS EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT IS THAT THE NEW BEP DOES REFLECT CHANGES. THERE ARE FEWER EXPELLABLE — FEWER ZERO TOLERANCE EXPELLABLE OFFENSES THAN THERE USED TO BE. THE MADISON METROPOLITAN SCHOOL DISTRICT’S BEP IS STILL HARSHER THAN STATE STATUTE. STATE STATUTE REQUIRES THAT IF A STUDENT BRINGS A FIREARM – A REAL GUN AS DEFINED UNDER FEDERAL LAW – ONTO SCHOOL PROPERTY, THEY MUST BE EXPELLED. STATE LAW DOES NOT REQUIRE A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY THAT CALLS FOR THE EXPULSION OF A STUDENT WHO BRINGS A BB GUN OR THE LIKE ONTO STUDENT GROUNDS. THE MADISON METROPOLITAN SCHOOL DISTRICT’S BEP MAKES THAT MANDATORY, MAKES THAT A ZERO TOLERANCE EXPELLABLE OFFENSE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT ABOUT THAT, ED HUGHES? WHY SO STRICT THEN?

ED HUGHES:

EACH SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE STATE HAS AN OBLIGATION I THINK TO DEVELOP THEIR OWN CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONSEQUENCES FOR BEHAVIOR. AND, AS I SAID BEFORE, WE WANT THE EXPELLABLE OFFENSES TO BE A SMALL NUMBER. WE WANT THEM TO BE OBJECTIVE CONDUCT SO THAT THERE’S NOT GROUND FOR SUBJECTIVITY IF THERE’S INSUBORDINATION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WE DON’T WANT THAT TO BE AN EXPELLABLE OFFENSE. AND WE WANT IT TO BE THE KIND OF OFFENSE WHERE IT’S NOT GOING TO BE A STUDENT DOES SOMETHING IMPULSIVE IN THE CLASSROOM. WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT BRINGING WEAPONS TO SCHOOL. WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT BRINGING DRUGS TO SCHOOL FOR DRUG TRANSACTIONS, THOSE ARE DELIBERATE CHOICES BY STUDENTS TO ENGAGE IN THAT CONDUCT. SO EVEN IN THE SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE A STUDENT WHO OTHERWISE HAS A GOOD RECORD IN SCHOOL AND IS A GOOD STUDENT, WE STILL THINK THAT WE NEED TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES ATTACHED TO THOSE FEW EVENTS WHICH REALLY DO ENDANGER THE SAFETY OF OUR STUDENTS AND OUR STAFF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT IN MOVING TO THE BEHAVIOR EDUCATION PLAN, DID THE DISTRICT KIND OF RECOGNIZE THIS SO-CALLED SCHOOL-TO-PRISON PIPELINE AND LOSS OF OPPORTUNITY?

ED HUGHES:

ABSOLUTELY. OVER THE COURS OF THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT WHAT OUR CODE OF CONDUCT SHOULD BE. HOW CAN WE REDUCE OUT OF TIME SUSPENSIONS FOR OUR STUDENTS AND THEY ARE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. THE NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS FOR EXPULSION HAVE DECREASED BY ABOUT 75% OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, NICK, YOU ARE A MEMBER OF A GROUP CALLED THE STUDENT EXPULSION PREVENTION PROJECT. WHY?

NICK GANSNER:

I’M NOT SURE THAT IT’S FAIR TO SAY THAT I’M PART OF THAT GROUP. MY CO-COUNSEL IN THIS CASE, MATT, IS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THAT GROUP. AND I WORKED ALONGSIDE HIM HERE. BUT I THINK THE REAL QUESTION IS WHY WOULD I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS MATTER. AND THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS BECAUSE I’M A MADISON NATIVE. I’M A PRODUCT OF THE MADISON SCHOOLS. I’VE RETURNED TO MADISON AS AN ADULT. AND MY EYES HAVE BEEN OPENED SIGNIFICANTLY ABOUT THE RACIAL DISPARITIES IN OUR COMMUNITY. THE ACHIEVEMENT DISPARITIES IN OUR SCHOOLS. AND THAT’S SOMETHING THAT I CARE A GREAT DEAL ABOUT. I THINK THE SCHOOL BOARD IS TO BE COMMENDED FOR THE IMPROVEMENTS THAT THEY’VE MADE IN THEIR POLICY. THOSE ARE REFLECTED IN THE BEP. AND MR. HUGHES JUST SPOKE TO THOSE. RECOMMENDATIONS FOR EXPULSIONS ARE DOWN. THAT’S A GOOD THING. I WOULD POINT OUT THAT THE BEP, MADISON’S BEP, IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE POLICIES OF A GREAT MANY SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN. THE WISCONSIN ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL BOARDS RELEASED A MEMO IN 2011, THE FALL OF 2011, THAT DESCRIBED UNDER THE CURRENT STATE OF WISCONSIN LAW ALL OF THE WAYS THAT SCHOOL DISTRICTS CAN EXERCISE DISCRETION. AND I THINK IT’S FAIR TO SAY THAT THE MADISON METROPOLITAN SCHOOL DISTRICT EXERCISED THEIR DISCRETION AT THE BOARD LEVEL IN PASSING THIS PARTICULAR POLICY. THE DISCRETION THAT WAS EXERCISED WAS TO ELIMINATE DISCRETION AND TO MAKE THESE OFFENSES LIKE DEREIAN’S A MANDATORY EXPULSION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANKS VERY MUCH.

NICK GANSNER AND ED HUGHES:

THANK YOU.