Here & Now

McCabe On Third Party Possibilities In Presidential Race

THE FOUNDER OF BLUE JEAN NATION WAS APPARENTLY ON TO SOMETHING IN A VERY REAL WAY. MIKE MCCABE WROTE A BOOK TITLED “BLUE JEANS IN HIGH PLACES:THE COMING MAKEOVER OF AMERICAN POLITICS,” DESCRIBING HOW THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE IS FED UP WITH THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM AND YEARNING FOR SOMETHING NEW. THIS WEEK MCCABE TALLIED RECENT POLLING THAT PUTS A SHARP POINT ON HIS PREMISE. AND HE JOINS US TONIGHT. THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

MIKE MCCABE:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO YOU RECENTLY WROTE THAT 90% OF VOTERS LACK CONFIDENCE IN THE COUNTRY’S POLITICAL SYSTEM, WHERE UPWARDS OF HALF SAY THE TWO-PARTY STRUCTURE IS SERIOUSLY BROKEN. HOW DOES THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION CYCLE BEAR THIS OUT?

MIKE MCCABE:

THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS LIKE THE CANARY IN A COAL MINE. IT INDICATES THAT THERE’S SOMETHING TOXIC. FROM ALL APPEARANCES IT LOOKS LIKE THE PARTY ESTABLISHMENTS ARE GOING TO KEEP GOING RIGHT DOWN THE MINE SHAFT. BUT THERE IS SOMETHING TOXIC THERE. AND TO ME IN A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC, WHEN THERE IS A PUBLIC CONSENSUS THAT WE, THE PEOPLE, ARE BEING RULED AND NOT REPRESENTED, THAT’S THE VERY DEFINITION OF SYSTEM FAILURE. AND THAT’S WHAT WE’VE GOT ON OUR HANDS HERE, IS A SYSTEM THAT’S FAILING. AND THAT’S WHAT THAT ASSOCIATED PRESS POLLING SHOWED, IS THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THESE PARTIES, THESE POLITICIANS AREN’T LISTENING TO US, THEY’RE NOT REPRESENTING OUR INTERESTS. WE’RE NOT BEING REPRESENTED. AND THE RULING CLASS HASN’T CLUED INTO THAT YET.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, HAVING WATCHED THE RISE OF DONALD TRUMP AND BERNIE SANDERS, BOTH OF WHOM APPARENTLY KIND OF TAP INTO VOTER ANGER, DO YOU FIND YOURSELF SAYING I TOLD YOU SO?

MIKE MCCABE:

WHEN I WROTE THAT BOOK, I DIDN’T SEE DONALD TRUMP COMING OR BERNIE SANDERS COMING. BUT I DID SEE THE BOILING DISCONTENT, THAT THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENTS WEREN’T SENSITIVE TO OR WERE BLOWING OFF. I DON’T KNOW WHICH IT IS, BUT THEY JUST WEREN’T TAKING THAT SERIOUSLY. AND OF COURSE TRUMP IN HIS WAY AND SANDERS IN HIS WAY TAPPED INTO THAT ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT FEELING. AND, YOU KNOW, IT MANIFESTED ITSELF IN A REALLY TUMULTUOUS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR. LIKE I SAID, IT’S THE CANARY IN A COAL MINE. IT SAYS WHAT’S GOING ON. IT SAYS SOMETHING POWERFUL ABOUT WHAT’S GOING ON IN OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU’VE DONE A LOT OF THINKING ABOUT THIS AND A LOT OF WRITING. HOW DID WE GET TO THIS PLACE?

MIKE MCCABE:

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE THING THAT IS INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT STILL PEOPLE FIND IT UNIMAGINABLE THAT A MAJOR PARTY COULD DIE OR A NEW MAJOR PARTY COULD BE BORN. AND IT’S UNIMAGINABLE BECAUSE IT HASN’T HAPPENED IN OUR LIFETIMES. BUT IF YOU GO BACK IN AMERICAN HISTORY, IT HAS HAPPENED. THE INTERESTING THING IS EVERY TIME IT’S HAPPENED THE CONDITIONS WERE EERILY SIMILAR TO THE CONDITIONS TODAY, THE SAME KIND OF PUBLIC DISCONTENT. THE SAME KIND OF RISING ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, THE SAME KIND OF ANGST YOU SEE TODAY WAS PRESENT IN THE PAST WHEN WE HAD THE POLITICAL EQUIVALENT OF EARTHQUAKES. AND I THINK ANOTHER ONE IS COMING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

GIVE ME SOME OF THOSE EXAMPLES.

MIKE MCCABE:

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS BORN AND WHEN IT WAS BORN, IT WAS THE TIME OF SLAVERY. AND WHEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS BORN, THE WHIG PARTY DIED. THE WHIG PARTY SPLINTERED. IT LOST ITS ENTIRE NORTHERN BASE OF SUPPORT, INCLUDING ABRAHAM LINCOLN. ABE LINCOLN WAS A WHIG AND BECAME A REPUBLICAN. SO THIS NEW MAJOR PARTY CAME ON THE SCENE AND DROVE THE WHIGS TO EXTINCTION. YOU FAST FORWARD A GENERATION AND A HALF OR SO AND THE PROGRESSIVE PARTY WAS BORN AND THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT AND THE POPULACE WERE RESPONDING TO THE GILDED AGE, THE AGE OF THE ROBBER BARONS. GROTESQUE ECONOMIC INEQUALITY AT THAT TIME. THE COUNTRY HAD PLUMMETED INTO DEPRESSION IN THE MID 1890s. THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT FORCED BOTH MAJOR PARTIES AT THE TIME TO ADAPT OR PERISH LIKE THE WHIGS DID. THEY ADAPTED. THEY EMBRACED THE PROGRESSIVE AGENDA. THEY ENACTED THOSE PROGRESSIVE REFORMS AND THEY SURVIVED. SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON HOW A MAJOR PARTY RESPONDS TO THESE CONDITIONS, BUT THEY WILL HAVE TO EITHER ADAPT OR PERISH, ONE OF THE TWO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU DON’T THINK THAT TODAY’S PARTIES HAVE MORE POWER AND INFLUENCE THAN THOSE IN THE PAST? IN OTHER WORDS, TO HOLD ON?

MIKE MCCABE:

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PEOPLE WHO WHEN IN POWER BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN FOREVER HOLD ON TO POWER AND THAT THEY CAN LOOK INTO THEIR PLAY BOOK AND THEY CAN FIND SOME TRICK THAT WILL ENABLE THEM TO HOLD ONTO POWER EVEN WHEN CONDITIONS MAKE THEM ILLEGITIMATE LEADERS. WE’RE AT A POINT WHERE TODAY’S LEADERS HAVE GROWN ILLEGITIMATE IN THE EYES OF THE PUBLIC. THEY’RE USING EVERY TRICK IN THE BOOK TO TRY TO HANG ON TO POWER. THEY ARE GOING TO EVENTUALLY HAVE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT THEY’LL EITHER HAVE TO ADAPT OR PERISH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. MIKE MCCABE. HIS BOOK IS “BLUE JEANS IN HIGH PLACES.” THANKS VERY MUCH.

MIKE MCCABE:

MY PLEASURE.