Here & Now

Jim Bender Defends Funding For Voucher Programs

WITH SCHOOLS BACK IN SESSION ACROSS WISCONSIN THIS WEEK, DEMOCRATIC LAW MAKERS OPPOSED TO THE STATE K-12 PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHER PROGRAM ARE RAILING AGAINST THE COST OF IT AT WHAT THEY SAY IS AT THE EXPENSE OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS. SENATOR MINORITY LEADER JENNIFER SHILLING POINTS OUT VOUCHER SCHOOLS HAVE COST THE STATE MORE THAN A BILLION DOLLARS SINCE 2011. SHILLING SAYS IT’S NOT FAIR THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE TAKING CUTS WHEN PRIVATE VOUCHER SCHOOLS ARE GETTING WHAT SHE CALLS A BLANK CHECK. A FISCAL BUREAU ANALYSIS SHILLING REQUESTED SHOWS VOUCHER FUNDING INCREASED SEVEN TIMES AS FAST AS PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDING SINCE 2011. WE HAVE TWO SIDES OF THIS ISSUE TONIGHT, STARTING WITH THE PRESIDENT OF SCHOOL CHOICE WISCONSIN, JIM BENDER. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

JIM BENDER:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSE TO THE CRITICISM THAT PRIVATE VOUCHER SCHOOLS ARE TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM ALREADY INCREASINGLY-STRAPPED PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

JIM BENDER:

WELL, I WOULD SAY YOU’VE GOT TO PUT THESE NUMBERS INTO CONTEXT. AND THE FIRST THING TO UNDERDSTAND IS THAT EDUCATION IN WISCONSIN IS FUNDED ON A PER-PUPIL BASIS, MEANING THE PUBLIC SCHOOL OR PRIVATE SCHOOL OR VIRTUAL SCHOOL OR CHARTER SCHOOL, THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS IN YOUR CLASS ARE SENT AN X AMOUNT OF MONEY PER STUDENT. FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS IT’S A LITTLE OVER $12,000 A YEAR. FOR EVERYBODY ELSE WE’RE KIND OF IN THE $7,000 – $8,000 RANGE. BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MONEY GOING TO A PROGRAM OR MONEY GOING TO A PUBLIC DISTRICT, IT’S NOT REALLY THAT MONEY IS GOING THERE PER SE AS IT IS CHILDREN AND STUDENTS ARE GOING THERE. SO WHEN YOU’VE GOT MORE THAN 100,000 STUDENTS THAT ARE INVOLVED IN PUBLIC SCHOOL OPEN ENROLLMENT, CHARTER SCHOOLS, INDEPENDENT CHARTERS, THE VOUCHER PROGRAM, ALL OF THOSE THINGS FALL OUTSIDE OF THE PUBLIC DISTRICT, BUT ALL OF THOSE STUDENTS ARE INVOLVED IN THOSE PROGRAMS ON A VOLUNTARY DECISION FROM PARENTS TO PUT THEIR STUDENTS INTO THAT SYSTEM. SO WHEN YOU HAVE THE PROGRAM GROWING, LIKE THE VOUCHER PROGRAM IS GROWING, AND YES, MORE ADDITIONAL DOLLARS ARE GOING THERE, BUT THAT’S BECAUSE PARENTS ARE VOLUNTARILY PUTTING THEIR CHILDREN INTO THAT PROGRAM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND YET I THINK THAT THE OPPONENTS WOULD SAY YES, BUT IF THAT PROGRAM HAD NOT BEEN EXPANDED STATEWIDE AND THE CAPS GRADUALLY BEING TAKEN OFF, THEN YOU WOULDN’T HAVE THIS MONEY FOLLOWING THE PUPIL INTO THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

JIM BENDER:

WELL, THAT MIGHT BE, BUT IF YOU HAVE A DISTRICT THAT HAS PARENTS THAT ARE VOLUNTARILY LEAVING, YES, THERE ARE FEWER STUDENTS IN THAT PUBLIC SCHOOL. THEREFORE, THEY WILL GET FEWER DOLLARS. THEY’RE ALSO EDUCATING FEWER CHILDREN. BUT THE MATH OF IT IS VERY SIMPLE. WHEN YOU LOOK ESPECIALLY AT THE MILWAUKEE PROGRAM, THE STUDENTS ON A VOUCHER ARE GETTING EDUCATED AT SUCH A LOWER RATE THAT ELIMINATING THE VOUCHER PROGRAMS DOESN’T PUT MORE MONEY BACK IN THE SCHOOLS. IN FACT IT COSTS MORE MONEY. SO YOUR COST PER STUDENT OR YOUR AVAILABLE DOLLARS PER STUDENT WOULD ACTUALLY GO DOWN IF YOU ELIMINATED THE VOUCHER PROGRAMS BECAUSE THEY’RE SUCH AN EFFICIENT MEANS OF EDUCATING CHILDREN. SO IT’S AN APPLES TO APPLES AND I THINK THE BIGGEST THING OVERALL TO LOOK IS THEY THROW OUT SOME BIGGER NUMBERS OF A BILLION DOLLARS HERE. BUT LET’S JUST LOOK AT NEXT YEAR. FOR NEXT YEAR, THERE WILL BE OUTSIDE OF MILWAUKEE $38 MILLION SPENT ON THE NEW STATEWIDE PROGRAM IN RACINE. THERE WILL BE $5.4 BILLION SPENT ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS. IT IS LESS THAN 1% OF THE ALLOCATION GOING TO THE VOUCHER PROGRAM THAN COMPARED TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. SO TO SAY THAT THIS 1%, THIS TINY, LITTLE BIT IS HAVING A DRAMATIC IMPACT ON THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE DOLLARS THAT ARE GOING INTO THE PUBLIC SYSTEM IS A BIT OF A RED HERRING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE GROWTH OF ENROLLMENT IN THE CHOICE PROGRAM. LAST YEAR THERE WERE ABOUT 30,000 STUDENTS ATTENDING PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND THAT REPRESENTS A MORE THAN 25% INCREASE SINCE THIS 2011 NUMBER WHICH PEOPLE ARE USING.

JIM BENDER:

RIGHT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT DOES THIS YEAR LOOK LIKE?

JIM BENDER:

THIS YEAR LOOKS LIKE, SO JUST FOR THE MECHANICS OF IT, THE CAP ON THE NUMBER OF SCHOOLS PARTICIPATING HAS BEEN ELIMINATED. THE OVERALL ENROLLMENT CAP HAS BEEN ELIMINATED. BUT THERE’S STILL A 1% EXIT CAP. SO A PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT CAN’T EVER LOSE MORE THAN 1% OF ITS STUDENTS IN A YEAR GOING TO THE PROGRAM. THAT’S QUITE FRANKLY NOT SOMETHING WE’RE ALL THAT FOND OF, BUT NONETHELESS THAT IS A VERY LIMITING FACTOR ON THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS THAT COMING IN. THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION IS CURRENTLY RUNNING THE LOTTERY, SO WE DON’T HAVE THE FINAL NUMBERS YET. BUT THERE WERE 1,000 STUDENTS IN THE STATEWIDE PROGRAM. THAT’S LIKELY TO DOUBLE OR BE A LITTLE BIT HIGHER TO A FEW THOUSAND STUDENTS THIS TIME. AND THE RACINE PROGRAM WILL LIKELY GROW BY A FEW HUNDRED. AGAIN, WE’LL HAVE A FEW THOUSAND MORE STUDENTS COMING. WITH THAT 1% CAP ON THERE, YOU WILL SEE GROWTH EVERY YEAR, BUT IT WILL BE VERY MEASURED GROWTH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT AFTER TEN YEARS THAT 1% IS GONE AND ALL CAPS ARE OFF. WHAT’S YOUR GOAL FOR ENROLLMENT AT THAT POINT?

JIM BENDER:

I THINK THE GOAL FOR ENROLLMENT ISN’T A SPECIFIC NUMBER. IT REALLY NEVER HAS BEEN. I THINK THE GOAL FOR ENROLLMENT, WHETHER IT BE IN MILWAUKEE, WHERE THERE IS NO CAP OR RACINE, WHERE THERE IS NO CAP, I THINK THE BIGGEST THING IS TO MAKE SURE THERE’S ENOUGH HIGH-QUALITY SEATS SO THAT THERE AREN’T WAITING LISTS. RIGHT NOW AT EVERY HIGH-PERFORMING SCHOOL – BE THAT PUBLIC, CHARTER, CHOICE – THERE ARE LONG WAITING LISTS. PARENTS WANT TO GET INTO HIGHLY-SUCCESSFUL SCHOOLS. I THINK THE GOAL FOR EVERYBODY SHOULD BE THERE AREN’T ANY WAITING LISTS. PEOPLE ARE GETTING INTO THE SCHOOLS THEY WANT TO GET INTO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

LET ME JUST ASK YOU BRIEFLY WITH A MINUTE LEFT, THE SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAM HAS CERTAINLY CHANGED SINCE ITS INCEPTION. NOW A FAMILY WITH TWO CHILDREN CAN MAKE LIKE $75,000 A YEAR AND STILL BE ELIGIBLE. SO WHY GIVE MONEY TO THESE KINDS OF FAMILIES TO ATTEND PRIVATE SCHOOLS WHEN I UNDERSTAND THAT LIKE THREE-QUARTERS OF THEM ALREADY HAD THEIR CHILD ATTENDING THE PRIVATE SCHOOL THAT THEY ARE NOW ENROLLING IN AS A CHOICE VOUCHER STUDENT.

JIM BENDER:

WELL THOSE NUMBERS ACTUALLY DON’T APPLY FOR THE OUTSTATE PROGRAM. THAT’S 185% OF POVERTY LEVEL. YOU HAVE TO ALMOST CUT THAT NUMBER IN HALF FOR INCOME IN ORDER TO BE ELIGIBLE. BUT WE TOOK A SURVEY OF THE SCHOOLS THAT DID THAT. 99% OF THE STUDENTS THAT WERE IN THE PROGRAM THAT WERE QUOTE-UNQUOTE PRIVATE PAY WERE ON SCHOLARSHIP. THEY WEREN’T PAYING TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE. THEY WERE ON SCHOLARSHIP. THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT RECEIVED VOUCHERS. SO WHEN THOSE STUDENTS RECEIVE VOUCHERS, WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IS THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS REPURPOSED THOSE SCHOLARSHIP DOLLARS AND BROUGHT A NUMBER OF PUBLIC STUDENTS IN. NONETHELESS, WE ARE ALL TAXPAYERS. EVERYBODY IS PAYING INTO THE SYSTEM. THE ONLY THING THE LEGISLATURE HAS DONE IS THROUGH ALL THESE DIFFERENT OPTIONS HAS SAID EVERYBODY THAT’S PAYING INTO THE SYSTEM, YOU GET MORE THAN THE ONE SIZE FITS ALL PUBLIC SYSTEM. THERE ARE OPTIONS THAT PARENTS HAVE TO REPURPOSE THOSE DOLLARS THAT WE’RE ALL PAYING INTO THE SYSTEM. THEY GET ACCESS TO THOSE DOLLARS NOW TO FIND THE BEST FIT FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. JIM BENDER, THANKS VERY MUCH.

JIM BENDER:

THANK YOU.