Here & Now

Harvard Professor, UW Grad On His New Book About Eviction

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

MATTHEW DESMOND, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

MATTHEW DESMOND:

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU SAY QUOTE, IF INCARCERATION HAD COME TO DEFINE THE LIVES OF MEN FROM IMPOVERISHED BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS WHICH PARENTHETICALLY IT HAS IN MILWAUKEE, EVICTION WAS SHAPING THE LIVES OF WOMEN. HOW SO?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

EVICTIONS USED TO BE RARE. THEY USED TO BE THINGS THAT DREW CROWDS IN OUR CITIES. BUT NOW EVICTIONS ARE COMMON PLACE, ESPECIALLY IN POOR NEIGHBORHOODS. THE FACE OF OUR EVICTION EPIDEMIC IS THE FACE OF MOMS AND KIDS. IT’S ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR MOMS AND KIDS IN LOW-INCOME, PREDOMINANTLY AFRICAN-AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOODS. ONE IN FIVE BLACK WOMEN RENTERS IN MILWAUKEE REPORTS HAVING BEEN EVICTED SOME TIME IN HER LIFETIME. IT’S ABOUT ONE IN 15 WHITE WOMEN RENTERS IN THAT CITY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU EMBEDDED IN MILWAUKEE. WHAT DID THAT ENTAIL?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

I MOVED INTO A TRAILER PARK AND I LIVED IN A TRAILER ON THE FAR SOUTH SIDE OF THE CITY FOR ABOUT FIVE MONTHS. THEN I RENTED A ROOM IN A ROOMING HOUSE ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE CITY, THE INNER CITY AND I LIVED THERE FOR TEN MONTHS. I FOLLOWED FAMILIES GETTING EVICTED AND THE LANDLORDS DOING THE EVICTING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE IN THEIR LIVES?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

YEAH. YEAH. I LEARNED SO MUCH. YOU KNOW, I SAW A LOT OF SUFFERING. I SAW A LOT OF PAIN. BUT I ALSO SAW A LOT OF COURAGE IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY. A LOT OF SPUNK, A LOT OF BRILLANCE. AND I LEARNED THAT HOUSING IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO THE LIVES OF LOW-INCOME FAMILIES. AND EVICTION ISN’T JUST A CONDITION OF POVERTY BUT IT’S A CAUSE OF IT. IT’S MAKING THEIR LIVES MUCH, MUCH HARDER.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, OF ALL THE RENTERS THAT YOU FOLLOWED, WHOSE STORY STANDS OUT?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

THERE ARE SO MANYS STORIES THAT STAND OUT TO ME. I THINK OF A WOMAN LIKE ARLENE WHO IS A SINGLE MOM TRYING TO RAISE TWO BOYS, BUT SPENDING 88% OF HER INCOME ON RENT AND TRYING TO MAKE ENDS MEET UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS. I THINK OF LAMAR, WHO IS THIS ROLE MODEL IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD FOR A GROUP OF YOUNG BOYS AND TRYING TO WORK OFF THE RENT WITH HIS LANDLORD AND THAT WAS NOT WORKING OUT SO WELL FOR HIM. I THINK OF A GRANDMOTHER LIKE LORRAINE THAT I MET AT THE TRAILER PARK WHO HAD TO DECIDE SHOULD I PAY MY RENT OR SHOULD I PAY THE GAS BILL SO I CAN TAKE A HOT SHOWER. THESE PEOPLE REALLY AFFECTED THE WAY THAT I SEE INEQUALITY IN AMERICA TODAY AND AFFECTED ME PERSONALLY AS WELL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT STANDS OUT AMONG THE LANDLORDS THAT YOU GOT TO KNOW?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

IT’S COMPLICATED. I THINK THAT WE LET OURSELVES OFF THE HOOK IF WE JUST BLAME THE TENANTS FOR BEING IRRESPONSIBLE OR WE BLAME THE LANDLORDS FOR BEING GREEDY. THE REALITY IS IT’S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT AND WE NEED TO BE UP FOR A MORE COMPLICATED CONVERSATION. ONE THING THAT DID STAND OUT TO ME ABOUT THE LANDLORDS IS THEY HAVE A LOT OF DISCRETION OVER THE EVICTION DECISION. THEY HAVE A LOT OF POWER OVER TENANTS’ LIVES. IF WE WANT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY LOW-INCOME FAMILIES ARE MOVING SO MUCH, WHERE THEY LIVE, WHERE MOST OF THEIR MONEY IS GOIN TO, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON LANDLORDS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BEING LITERALLY THROWN OUT ON THE STREET IS BAD ENOUGH, BUT WHAT ARE THE KIND OF RIPPLE EFFECTS OF EVICTION, FOR EXAMPLE, ON CHILDREN?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

IT HAS AN ENORMOUS EFFECT ON FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES. EVICTION CAN CAUSE YOU TO LOSE YOUR JOB. IT’S SUCH A CONSUMING STRESSFUL EVENT. YOU CAN GET FIRED WHILE YOU’RE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. YOU LOSE NOT ONLY YOUR HOMES, BUT ALSO YOUR COMMUNITIES. CHILDREN LOSE THEIR SCHOOLS. WE KNOW THAT FAMILIES RELOCATE TO WORSE NEIGHBORHOODS AND TO WORSE HOUSING AFTER THEIR EVICTION, OFTEN BECAUSE EVICTION HAS A RECORD AND LANDLORDS REFUSE TO RENT TO YOU. AND WE ALSO KNOW EVICTION TAKES A TOLL ON YOUR SPIRIT. MOMS THAT WERE EVICTED, TWO YEARS LATER REPORT HIGHER RATES OF DEPRESSIVE SYMPTOMS. YOU ADD THAT ALL UP AND YOU HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT EVICTION IS A CAUSE, NOT JUST A CONDITION OF POVERTY. THAT’S LEAVING A REALLY DEEP AND JAGGED SCAR ON THE NEXT GENERATION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE USUAL EVICTEES’ INCOME GOES TO RENT?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

A LOT. AND SO WE’VE REACHED THE POINT IN AMERICA WHERE THE MAJORITY OF POOR RENTING FAMILIES ARE SPENDING AT LEAST 50% OF THEIR INCOME ON HOUSING AND ONE IN FOUR ARE SPENDING AT LEAST 70% OF THEIR INCOME JUST ON RENT AND UTILITIES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND SO IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG IN THEIR FINANCIAL PICTURE, THEY GET BEHIND.

MATTHEW DESMOND:

YEAH. I THINK THAT MOST AMERICANS STILL THINK THAT THE TYPICAL LOW-INCOME FAMILY LIVES IN PUBLIC HOUSING OR RECEIVES SOME SORT OF HOUSING ASSISTANCE. BUT THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. ONLY ABOUT ONE IN FOUR FAMILIES THAT QUALIFY FOR ASSISTANCE RECEIVE ANYTHING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BECAUSE THERE ARE LONG LINES FOR PUBLIC HOUSING. AND WHAT ABOUT THE HOUSING THEY ARE PAYING 50% OR MORE OF THEIR INCOME FOR? WHAT DOES THAT STOCK LOOK LIKE IN MILWAUKEE?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

IT’S OFTEN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE MARKET. SOMETIMES IT HAS PRETTY BAD HOUSING PROBLEMS. THINGS LIKE PLUMBING BEING BROKEN. WHEN I LIVED IN THE TRAILER PARK, FOR EXAMPLE, MOST OF THE TIME I LIVED WITHOUT HOT WATER, EVEN THOUGH I TOLD THE LANDLORD THAT I WAS A WRITER WRITING A BOOK ABOUT HIM AND HIS TRAILER PARK. SO IF I EXPERIENCED THAT, IMAGINE WHAT A LOT OF OTHER FOLKS IN THAT AREA WERE EXPERIENCING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT IN YOUR MIND CAN OR SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THAT PIECE OF IT, KIND OF THE PROPERTY AND ITS UPKEEP?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

YEAH. THAT’S RIGHT. IF WE DON’T CONFRONT THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING CRISIS, WE CAN’T CONFRONT POVERTY AND ITS UPKEEP. THEY BOTH GO TOGETHER. YOU HAVE RIGHTS IN CITIES LIKE MILWAUKEE OR MADISON, BUT TENANTS WHO ARE BEHIND IN THEIR RENT THAT HAVE TO ASK THEIR LANDLORDS COMPASSION, THEY EXERCISE THOSE RIGHTS IN A REALLY DANGEROUS WAY. THEY CAN BE EVICTED IF THEY CALL THE BUILDING INSPECTOR OR REPORT HOUSING PROBLEMS, NOT BECAUSE IT’S OKAY FOR LANDLORDS TO RETALIATE, BUT BECAUSE THEY’RE BEHIND ON THEIR RENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT POLICYMAKERS OR LEASDERS ARE TURNING A BLIND EYE TO THIS?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

I THINK WE ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION TODAY ABOUT INEQUALITY. AND I THINK THAT POLICYMAKERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE CARE DEEPLY ABOUT POVERTY IN OUR COUNTRY, WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. BUT I THINK MOST FOLKS ARE STILL FOCUSED ON JOBS. MORE JOBS, BETTER JOBS, INCENTIVIZING WORK, INCREASING WAGES. I THINK THAT’S FINE AND GOOD, BUT IT’S HALF THE SOLUTION. WE CAN’T FIX POVERTY WITHOUT ALSO FIXING HOUSING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, NEW LAWS IN WISCONSIN MAKE IT GENERALLY EASIER FOR LANDLORDS TO EVICT. ON TOP OF EVERYTHING YOU KNOW, WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

MATTHEW DESMOND:

I FEEL THAT YOU HAVE TO CONFRONT THE FACT THAT WE’RE PAYING AS A SOCIETY FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF EVICTION. WE’RE PAYING FOR PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUES WHEN MOTHERS HAVE HIGHER RATES OF DEPRESSION OR CHILDREN GET ASTHMA BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN SUBSTANDARD HOUSING. WE’RE PAYING FOR POLICE BECAUSE COMMUNITIES ARE BEING DESTABILIZED. WE KNOW THAT INCREASES CRIME IN THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS. AND SO I THINK THAT IF WE DO THINGS TO LOWER EVICTIONS AND PREVENT EVICTIONS, WE CAN REAP THE COST DOWNSTREAM. I THINK THAT ANYTHING THAT’S DESIGNED TO DO THAT WOULD BE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

MATTHEW DESMOND, THANKS VERY MUCH.

MATTHEW DESMOND:

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.