Here & Now

Hall Explains New Information Regarding Public Records

AND TONIGHT THERE’S MORE ON THE WALKER ADMINISTRATION’S HANDLING OF PUBLIC RECORDS. LAST WEEK WE TALKED ABOUT HOW THE DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION DID NOT PRODUCE REQUESTED TEXT MESSAGES BECAUSE THEY WERE NEWLY-DEEMED TRANSITORY AND THEREFORE NOT MAINTAINED. SOME VISITOR LOGS AT THE GOVERNOR’S MANSION LIKEWISE FELL UNDER THE TRANSITORY DEFINITION. BUT NOW DEE HALL AND THE CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM HAS ADDITIONAL REPORTING ON THIS. DEE, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

DEE HALL:
THANKS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO LET’S GET THE LAY OF THE LAND. WHO DID YOU TALK TO IN YOUR REPORTING?

DEE HALL:
I INTERVIEWED TWO FORMER CABINET SECRETARIES UNDER GOVERNOR WALKER, PAUL JADEN, HEAD OF THE WISCONSIN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION, AS WELL AS PETER BILLSTON, WHO HEADED UP THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU?

DEE HALL:
THEY TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS A POLICY THAT WAS — A VERBAL POLICY, AN ORALLY-TRANSMITTED POLICY TO THEM THAT THEY SHOULD AVOID THEIR STATE EMAIL AND STATE TELEPHONES WHEN CONDUCTING IMPORTANT BUSINESS OR BUSINESS OF ANY CONSEQUENCE REGARDING THE STATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
DID THEY TELL YOU WHY THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE TOLD THAT?

DEE HALL:
THEY BOTH SAID THAT EVERYONE CAN DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS, BUT THAT THERE WAS DEFINITELY A PREFERENCE BY THE DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION SECRETARY MIKE HUEBSCH AT THE TIME TO NOT COMMUNICATE USING OFFICIAL CHANNELS, BUT RATHER THEIR PRIVATE CELL PHONES OR TO WALK DOCUMENTS OVER. NOT TO EMAIL THEM BUT TO WALK THEM OVER TO HIS OFFICE OR THE GOVERNOR’S OFFICE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
NOW, IT’S CLEAR THAT EMAILS LEAVE A PAPER TRAIL, BUT ARE STATE PHONE LOGS OR NOTES OF CONVERSATIONS SUPPOSED TO BE SUBJECT TO OPEN RECORDS?

DEE HALL:
SURE. YEAH. YEAH. PRETTY MUCH ANY RECORD THAT’S CREATED IN THE COURSE OF DOING STATE BUSINESS IS DISCOVERABLE. THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS THERE, MEDICAL RECORDS AND SOME OTHER THINGS. AND THEN THERE’S THIS NEW — NOT A NEW EXCEPTION, BUT IT’S ONE THAT WE’RE HEARING ABOUT NOW HAVING TO DO WITH TRANSITORY RECORDS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHAT DOES BILL LUEDERS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE WISCONSIN FREEDOM OF INFORMATION COUNCIL, SAY ABOUT THIS?

DEE HALL:
HE’S SAID THAT HE BELIEVES IT’S AN OBVIOUS ATTEMPT TO AVOID DETECTION AND PUBLIC SCRUTANY OF WHAT THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS UP TO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHEN YOU ASKED THE FORMER SECRETARIES ABOUT THIS, WHAT DID MIKE HUEBSCH AND GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER HAVE TO SAY IN RESPONSE?

DEE HALL:
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THEY DENY THERE’S ANY KIND OF POLICY OF ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO COMMUNICATE BY PRIVATE CHANNELS. THEY STATE THAT THEIR POLICY IS THAT HOWEVER YOU COMMUNICATE, WHETHER IT’S THROUGH YOUR STATE PHONE, STATE EMAIL, PRIVATE PHONE, PRIVATE EMAIL, IT’S ALL DISCOVERABLE UNDER THE OPEN RECORDS LAW. BUT SIMPLY IT COMES DOWN TO THE SECRETARIES SAYING, NO, THEY WERE INSTRUCTED TO DO THE OPPOSITE, TO USE PRIVATE CHANNELS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
BUT IN TERMS OF WHAT THE GOVERNOR WALKER ADMINISTRATION SAYS, I MEAN, SHIELDING PUBLIC RECORDS BY NOT CREATING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE MAY NOT BE ILLEGAL.

DEE HALL:
RIGHT. I WAS TALKING WITH BOB DREXEL. HE TEACHES AT THE JOURNALISM PROGRAM. AND HE TEACHES MEDIA LAW. AND HE SAID THAT IT’S NOT NECESSARILY ILLEGAL TO AVOID CREATING ANY KIND OF RECORD OF WHAT YOU’RE DOING, YOUR OFFICIAL BUSINESS, BUT THAT HE QUESTIONS WHETHER THAT IS GOVERNMENT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST WHEN YOU DO THAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
AND YOU’VE BEEN DOING THIS KIND OF WORK FOR A LONG TIME.

DEE HALL:
YES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
HAVE YOU SEEN THIS KIND OF THING BEFORE, OR AT LEAST BEEN MADE AWARE OF IT, THAT PEOPLE WERE LITERALLY PHYSICALLY WALKING RECORDS, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL BLOCKS TO A DIFFERENT OFFICE INSTEAD OF PICKING UP THE PHONE?

DEE HALL:
THAT ONE I DON’T KNOW IF I’VE SEEN THAT SPECIFIC ONE, BUT I DO KNOW THAT DURING THE SO-CALLED JOHN DOE ONE INVESTIGATION, THERE WERE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF EMAILS AND OTHER TYPES OF MESSAGES, CORRESPONDENCE RELEASED AS PART OF THAT INVESTIGATION ENDING AND THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION. THOUSANDS OF EMAILS REALLY USING PRIVATE EMAILS AMONG THE WALKER ADMINISTRATION STAFF.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
SO WHAT DOES WHAT YOU’RE REPORTING ON TODAY RELATE — HOW DOES IT RELATE TO THE NEW DEFINITION OF TRANSITORY RECORDS?

DEE HALL:
WELL, IT MAY OR MAY NOT RELATE TO THAT. IT’S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE I THINK THERE’S A LOT OF CONFUSION RIGHT NOW AMONG THE PUBLIC, EVEN AMONG THOSE OF US WRITING ABOUT THIS ISSUE AS TO WHAT A TRANSITORY RECORD IS AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WHAT THE PUBLIC RECORDS BOARD DID BACK IN AUGUST REALLY MADE ANY REAL SIGNIFICANT CHANGE. I THINK THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT BOARD IS KIND OF CONFUSED AND SURPRISED BY THE PUBLIC REACTION. I THINK THE QUESTION COMES DOWN TO HOW THIS DEFINITION IS BEING APPLIED WHEN IT COMES TO INDIVIDUAL OPEN RECORDS REQUESTS. AND I THINK THEY’RE GOING TO REVISIT IT NOW. THEY FEEL THAT THEY NEED TO JUST KIND OF OPEN IT UP AND HAVE PERHAPS A PUBLIC — LET THE PUBLIC IN, RE-NOTICE THE MEETING AND KIND OF START OVER IN TERMS OF REDEFINING WHAT A TRANSITORY RECORD IS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:
DEE HALL, THANKS VERY MUCH.

DEE HALL:
THANK YOU.