Here & Now

Guardian Reporter On John Doe Documents Story

SCOTT WALKER:

THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THERE’S NO ONE IN AMERICA IN ELECTED OFFICES WHO’S FACED MORE SCRUTINY OVER THE LAST SIX PLUS YEARS THAN I HAVE. MULTIPLE COURTS, MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS. ULTIMATELY REACHING, GETTING TO THE SAME CONCLUSION, WHICH WAS THAT THE INVESTIGATION WAS BASELESS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THAT WAS GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER RESPONDING TO THE LEAKED JOHN DOE DOCUMENTS. NOW TO THE GUARDIAN REPORTER WHO BROKE THE STORY, ED PILKINGTON, WHO JOINS US FROM NEW YORK AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR DOING SO.

ED PILKINGTON:

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THE TITLE OR THE HEADLINE OF YOUR STORY IS “BECAUSE SCOTT WALKER ASKED.” WHAT DOES THAT REFER TO?

ED PILKINGTON:

WELL, WE RECEIVED A STASH OF ABOUT 1,500 PAGES OF DOCUMENTS THAT WERE LEAKED TO US FROM THE JOHN DOE INVESTIGATION THAT WENT ON FOR SEVERAL YEARS IN WISCONSIN. AND AMONG THE DOCUMENTS WERE SEVERAL CHECKS THAT CAME IN FROM INDIVIDUAL, WEALTHY DONORS, AS WELL AS DIFFERENT CORPORATIONS. AND ONE OF THEM WAS A DONATION FROM A WEALTHY CORPORATE OWNER THAT HAD WRITTEN INTO THE SUBJECT LINE “BECAUSE SCOTT WALKER ASKED.” AND THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT, LIKE SO MUCH OF THE OTHER DOCUMENTS WE FOUND AMONG THIS STASH OF LEAKED DOCUMENTS, WAS THAT THE MONEY DID NOT GO TO SCOTT WALKER’S PERSONAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE, WHICH HE SET UP TO RUN HIS RECALL ELECTION IN 2012. IT WENT TO A THIRD OUTSIDE GROUP, A SO-CALLED DARK MONEY GROUP, THAT HAD UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF MONEY THAT IT COULD COLLECT AND NEVER HAD TO DISCLOSE WHERE THE SOURCES OF ITS INCOME CAME FROM, UNLIKE SCOTT WALKER’S OWN CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE. AND THAT’S REALLY THE NUB OF OUR STORY. SO WHEN WE SAW THAT CHECK AND WE SAW THE HANDWRITTEN NOTE IN THE SUBJECT LINE, WE THOUGHT IT KIND OF SUMMED UP WHAT WE WERE SEEING AND IT SUMMED UP THE STORY WE WERE TRYING TO TELL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, AS FOR THESE DOCUMENTS, THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT IN SHUTTING THE JOHN DOE DOWN RULED THEY SHOULD BE DESTROYED AT FIRST, THEN SAID THEY SHOULD BE SEALED. GIVEN THAT SEAL AND THE SECRET NATURE OF THIS PROBE, HOW BIG OF A DEAL WAS IT TO HAVE THESE DOCUMENTS LEAKED TO YOU?

ED PILKINGTON:

WELL, ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, A VERY BIG DEAL, AND FOR THE GUARDIAN EQUALLY. SOMETHING WE TOOK VERY SERIOUSLY. THE GUARDIAN HAS HAD A TRACK RECORD OF DEALING IN VERY LARGE LEAKS, WIKI LEAKS, THE EDWARD SNOW-NSA REVELATIONS AND OTHERS. SO IT’S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS ENTIRELY NEW TO US. BUT WHENEVER SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS, AND I’M SPEAKING PERSONALLY HERE, IT’S SOMETHING YOU DON’T DEAL WITH LIGHTLY. IT’S A VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE ABOUT WHETHER ONE SHOULD PUBLISH DOCUMENTS AT ALL. WE DECIDED THAT WE HAD TO THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT THE PUBLIC INTEREST AT ISSUE HERE. AND THE CONCLUSION, IN THE END WE FELT FAIRLY STRAIGHT FORWARD. WE FELT FAIRLY COMFORTABLE WITH IT BECAUSE WE SAID TO OURSELVES WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE MORE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST THAN THE HEALTH OF DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA OR IN WISCONSIN. AND THE STORY WE FOUND IN THESE DOCUMENTS IS A WISCONSIN STORY. BUT WE THINK IT VERY MUCH APPLIES TO EVERY OTHER STATE IN THE UNION AND THEREFORE WE WANTED TO TELL A STORY THAT ASKED SOME PRETTY SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE WAY DEMOCRACY AND ELECTIONS IN PARTICULAR ARE BEING RUN IN THIS COUNTRY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO JUST BACK TO THE LEAK OF THE DOCS FOR A MOMENT, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF CALLS TO INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THAT LEAK BEING MADE HERE IN WISCONSIN NOW?

ED PILKINGTON:

IT DOESN’T SURPRISE ME THAT CALLS ARE BEING MADE. WHENEVER THERE’S A BIG LEAK, THERE TENDS TO BE AT LEAST SOME PROCESS OF LEAK INVESTIGATION. I CAN’T OBVIOUSLY TALK ABOUT OUR SOURCES. BUT I WOULD SAY THIS: ALTHOUGH IT’S PERHAPS NOT SURPRISING THAT CALLS ARE HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT, IT’S SOMEWHAT DISAPPOINTING IN THAT WHAT THE DOCUMENTS TALK TO ARE FAIRLY MAJOR ISSUES ABOUT PROPRIETY IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. ABOUT THE WAY CORPORATE MONEY IS BECOMING PREVALENT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, AND NOT JUST IN WISCONSIN, AS I SAID, NOR IS IT JUST BY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS DOING A VERY SIMILAR THING. SO IT’S KIND OF DISAPPOINTING THAT SENIOR OFFICIALS IN WISCONSIN, THE ONLY REACTION SO FAR IS TO SAY WE MUST HAVE A LEAK INQUIRY. THEY HAVEN’T RESPONDED AT ALL TO THE ISSUES OF SUBSTANCE THAT ARE RAISED BY THESE DOCUMENTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BACK TO THE ISSUES IN YOUR REPORTING. HOW DOES LEAD PAINT FIGURE INTO ALL OF THIS?

ED PILKINGTON:

WELL, SORT OF HALF OF ANY CAMPAIGN FINANCE REGULATION AND THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS MADE THIS POINT MANY, MANY TIMES GOING BACK DECADES IN MANY OF ITS MOST IMPORTANT CAMPAIGN FINANCE RULINGS — IS THE NEED TO PREVENT — NOT ONLY AGAINST THE RISK OF CORRUPTION, BUT AND THE SUPREME COURT AGAIN SAYS THIS, AGAINST EVEN THE APPEARANCE OF POTENTIAL CORRUPTION. BECAUSE THEY THINK EVEN IF THINGS LOOK LIKE THEY MAY BE CORRUPT, THAT COULD DAMAGE THE PUBLIC FAITH IN DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA. AS I SAY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT. NOW, AMONG THE DOCUMENTS WE FOUND THAT SCOTT WALKER’S CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE WENT TO A BILLIONAIRE CALLED HAROLD SIMMONS, WHO — HE DIED IN 2013, BUT HE LIVED UNTIL THEN IN TEXAS. AND HE OWNED A COMPANY CALLED NL INDUSTRIES, WHICH WAS A MAJOR PRODUCER OF LEAD AND UNTIL 1978 WHEN IT WAS BANNED, A MAJOR PRODUCER OF LEAD PAINT. IN THE DOCUMENTS WE FOUND THREE DIFFERENT CHECKS FROM HAROLD SIMMONS AND HIS COMPANY GOING TO THE THIRD PARTY GROUP THAT SCOTT WALKER’S CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE WAS WORKING CLOSELY WITH DURING THE RECALL ELECTIONS OF 2011 AND 2012 AND THEY AMOUNTED TO $750,000 OF DONATIONS FROM HAROLD SIMMONS. AT THE SAME TIME FRAME, THE REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE IN WISCONSIN MADE SEVERAL EFFORTS TO CHANGE THE LAW THAT WOULD MAKE IT VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR VICTIMS OF LEAD PAINT POISONING TO SUE ANY LEAD PRODUCER, PRODUCING COMPANIES. AND WHEN I TALK ABOUT VICTIMS, I’M TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN PRIMARILY AS WE’VE SEEN IN FLINT, MICHIGAN. IT’S CHILDREN WHO GET DAMAGED MOST BY LEAD. IT CAN REALLY IMPAIR THEIR DEVELOPMENT. AND THE LEVELS OF LEAD POISONING THAT WERE FOUND AMONG SOME OF THESE CHILDREN PARTICULARLY IN MILWAUKEE WERE ABOUT 50 TIMES HIGHER THAN WE’VE SEEN IN FLINT, MICHIGAN. SO YOU CAN SEE HOW SERIOUS THIS IS. NOW, WAS THAT CORRUPTION? THERE’S NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS IN THESE DOCUMENTS. COULD IT POSSIBLY BE SEEN AS APPEARING LIKE CORRUPTION? WE RAISE THAT QUESTION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU KNOW, WE’RE SHORT ON TIME HERE. THIS WAS EXTREMELY ROBUST REPORTING WITH ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, AS YOU SUGGEST. BUT JUST ONE LAST QUESTION. WHAT KIND OF REACTION HAVE YOU GOTTEN TO THIS REPORTING?

ED PILKINGTON:

WELL, IT’S CLEARLY BEEN VERY DRAMATIC IN WISCONSIN FROM EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN HEARING. I HAVEN’T MYSELF BEEN IN YOUR STATE. AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY I THINK PEOPLE HAVE RESPONDED TO IT, YOU KNOW, IN DEPRESSINGLY PARTISAN WAYS. A LOT OF THE REACTION SEEMED VERY POSITIVE. PEOPLE VERY DISTURBED AND CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING TO ELECTIONS RIGHT ACROSS AMERICA BY THE WAY THAT CORPORATE MONEY IS FLOODING INTO THEM. AND THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE PEOPLE SAYING THAT THIS IS JUST TYPICAL SORT OF LEFT WING PROPAGANDA, WHICH, YOU KNOW I HASTEN TO ADD, IT ISN’T ON OUR PART.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. ED PILKINGTON, WE LEAVE IT THERE. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM NEW YORK.

ED PILKINGTON:

THANKS A LOT.