Here & Now

Robert Golden Expresses Concern Over Fetal Tissue Bill

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE INTERVIEWED THE U.W. SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND PUBLILC HEALTH DEAN ROBERT GOLDEN EARLIER TODAY. HE DID NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO REPRESENTATIVE JACQUE’S INTERVIEW. AS FOR JACQUE’S CLAIMS THAT SCIENTISTS ARE NOT USING FETAL TISSUE TOWARDS ALZHEIMER’S RESEARCH, GOLDEN GAVE US THIS RESPONSE. HE SAYS, QUOTE, THE WAISMAN CENTER AT U.W. IS, IN FACT, STUDYING DOWN SYNDROME AND ITS LINKS TO ALZHEIMER’S. SCIENTISTS ARE LOOKING AT THE EARLIEST STAGES OF DEVELOPMENTAL DEFECTS IN NERVE CELLS IN BRAIN. THIS RESEARCH ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES ACCESS TO FETAL TISSUE. THE LEAD SCIENTIST PRESENTED THIS WORK TO VISITORS FROM THE STATE LEGISLATURE THIS WEEK, INCLUDING A MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE WHICH HEARD TESTIMONY ON ASSEMBLY BILL 305. THIS WORK RECENTLY RECEIVED THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE RATING BY AN NIH REVIEW COMMITTEE. NOW THE U.W. SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND PUBLIC HEALTH CONDUCTS RESEARCH USING FETAL TISSUE AND CELL LINES. THIS TYPE OF RESEARCH EMPLOYS MORE THAN 1,400 PEOPLE IN 100 LABS. THE WORK ATTRACTED ABOUT $76 MILLION IN FEDERAL RESEARCH FUNDING IN THE MOST RECENT FISCAL YEAR. DR. ROBERT GOLDEN TESTIFIED AT THIS WEEK’S HEARING. HE’S THE DEAN OF THE U.W. SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND DOCTOR, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

ROBERT GOLDEN:

THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WE LED, OF COURSE, WITH THE NUMBER OF LABS AND PEOPLE AND THE AMOUNT OF FEDERAL FUNDING. BUT TO EXPRESS THE TONE OF THE COMMITTEE BEFORE WHICH YOU TESTIFIED, THE CHAIR, REPRESENTATIVE JOEL KLEEFISCH, SAID THIS TO YOU, QUOTE, BABIES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT SENTIMENT?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

OF COURSE, BABIES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY. AND THAT’S WHY IT’S SO IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE WITH THE RESEARCH, WHICH INCLUDES IMPORTANT PROJECTS AIMED TO SAVE BABIES FROM DEVASTATING DISEASES FOR WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE ADEQUATE TREATMENTS NOW. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, AT LEAST IN MY VIEW OR THE VIEW OF THE UNIVERSITY. IT’S ALL ABOUT LIFE-SAVING TREATMENTS THAT DEPEND ON THE AVAILABILITY OF FETAL TISSUE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT KINDS OF RESEARCH IS BEING DONE WITH THE USE OF FETAL TISSUE?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

IT COVERS THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM. WE HAVE IMPORTANT PROJECTS GOING ON IN SO MANY AREAS. AND THEY SPILL OVER ONE TO ANOTHER. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN OUR WAISMAN CENTER, NATIONALLY RENOWNED CENTER, THERE IS A RESEARCH TEAM THAT IS REALLY GOING AFTER THE BIOLOGY OF BOTH DOWN SYNDROME AND ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE, WHICH SHARE SOME COMMON LINKS. FOR NOW THEY NEED AS A TOOL IN THEIR DISCOVERY ACCESS TO FETAL TISSUE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHY IS FETAL TISSUE USED FOR SUCH RESEARCH?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN UNIQUE PROPERTIES ABOUT IT. THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS IN WHICH FETAL TISSUE IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER AVAILABLE MATERIALS. WHENEVER POSSIBLE WE USE OTHER APPROACHES AND HERE ON THIS CAMPUS, AS I KNOW YOU KNOW, JAMIE THOMSON DEVELOPED OTHER ALTERNATIVES WITH PLURIPOTENT INDUCED STEM CELLS, IN ORDER FOR HIM TO DEVELOP THAT, HE HAD TO HAVE ACCESS TO FETAL TISSUE. THERE ARE SEVERAL SITUATIONS WHERE WE CAN ONLY USE FETAL TISSUE. WHENEVER WE CAN USE ALTERNATIVE APPROACHES, WE DO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IN TERMS OF THE USE OF FETAL TISSUE, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO COME FROM AN ABORTED FETUS? I KNOW SOME PEOPLE AT THAT HEARING WERE TALKING ABOUT WHY CAN’T IT COME FROM A WOMAN WHO HAS A MISCARRIAGE, FOR EXAMPLE?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

THINK ABOUT IT FROM A PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE. THIS IS MATERIAL THAT HAS TO BE CAREFULLY OBTAINED, PROCESSED, AND THAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE IN IT A PLANNED WAY, IN AN APPROPRIATE ENVIRONMENT. UNFORTUNATELY WHEN WOMEN HAVE SPONTANEOUS MISCARRIAGES, THEY USUALLY DO NOT TAKE PLACE IN A HEALTH CARE FACILITY. THEY’RE SPONTANEOUS. MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IT MIGHT BE 2:00 IN THE MORNING IN THEIR HOME. SO IT JUST ISN’T FEASIBLE TO USE THAT TYPE OF MATERIAL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DESCRIBE FOR US SOME OF THE KINDS OF MEDICAL BREAKTHROUGHS THAT WE WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH THAT RESULTED FROM EARLIER WORK WITH FETAL TISSUE?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

WELL, YOU AND I AND OUR CHILDREN HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE POLIO VACCINE. IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED IF THIS LAW WAS IN EFFECT AT THAT TIME. MORE RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AS YOU KNOW, THE EBOLA OUTBREAK. WE ARE WORKING ON THIS CAMPUS REALLY HARD TO DEVELOP A VACCINE TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF EBOLA AND WE NEED TO HAVE ACCESS TO FETAL MATERIAL.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO IF THIS LAW WERE PASSED IN WISCONSIN, WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR CURRENT RESEARCH?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

TURN OFF THE LIGHTS FOR ANY OF THE PROMISING AVENUES OF RESEARCH IN THE ENTIRE STATE OF WISCONSIN, INCLUDING IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR THAT DEPENDS ON FETAL TISSUE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, WHAT ABOUT A CHANGE IN THE BILL THAT WAS DISCUSSED THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR THE USE OF FETAL TISSUE AND CELLS FROM ABORTIONS PERFORMED BEFORE 2010? WOULDN’T THAT ALLOW THIS RESEARCH TO CONTINUE?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

IT WOULD ALLOW A FRACTION OF THE CURRENT RESEARCH TO CONTINUE. THE FRACTION THAT IS ABLE TO USE PROPAGATED CELL LINES THAT ARE IN THE FREEZER. THAT WOULD COVER JUST A PART OF THE RESEARCH, BUT SO MANY OF THE STUDIES, INCLUDING THE ONES THAT I’VE REFERRED TO, REALLY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO NEW TISSUE. I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS YEAR 2010 WAS PULLED OUT OF THE AIR. BUT IT JUST WILL NOT WORK IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR CASES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW SHOULD SUCH A BILL, EVEN IN AN AMENDED FORM, WITH THAT KIND OF 2010, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN USE THE TISSUE — 2010 AND BEFORE, BUT EVEN IN SUCH AN AMENDED FORM, WHERE WOULD THAT PUT WISCONSIN’S BIO-MEDICAL RESEARCH REPUTATION?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

WE WOULD BE A FLY-OVER STATE. WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ATTRACT AND RECRUIT THE KINDS OF SCIENTISTS THAT MAKE OUR UNIVERSITY THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN THAT IT IS. WE WILL SEE AN EXODUS OF OUR FACULTY. WE’LL SEE AN EXODUS OF THE BIOTECH INDUSTRY THAT OUR STATE’S ECONOMY DEPENDS ON. AGAIN IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. BUT IT MEANS THAT BOTH IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND IN THE PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES AND IN THE PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES IN THIS STATE, WE WILL BE A FLY-OVER STATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DOES EVEN THE SPECTOR OF IT CAUSE SOME UNCERTAINTY IN THAT WAY?

ROBERT GOLDEN:

IT’S ALREADY BEGINNING TO HAVE DAMAGING EFFECTS. ESPECIALLY ON TOP OF OTHER EVENTS OF THE PAST YEAR. BUT FACULTY WHO UP TO THIS POINT HAVE BEEN VERY HAPPY HERE AND HAVE FELT VERY SECURE, ARE BEGINNING TO RETURN PHONE CALLS FROM COMPETING UNIVERSITIES IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT THEY ORDINARILY WOULDN’T BE RESPONDING TO.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. DR. ROBERT GOLDEN, THANKS VERY MUCH.

ROBERT GOLDEN:

THANK YOU.