Here & Now

Former State Corrections Secretary On Challenges Ahead

ZAC SCHULTZ:

CURRENT DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS’ SECRETARY ED WALL IS RESIGNING AT THE END OF THE MONTH AND GOVERNOR WALKER HAS APPOINTED A FORMER CORRECTIONS SECRETARY JOHN LITSCHER TO THE POST. JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE JOB FACING THE NEW SECRETARY IS FORMER SECRETARY OF CORRECTIONS AND RETIRED UW LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR WALTER DICKEY. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

WALTER DICKEY:

GLAD TO BE HERE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

IN GENERAL, WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES FACING THE NEW SECRETARY OF CORRECTIONS?

WALTER DICKEY:

WELL, I REALIZE LINCOLN HILLS STANDS OUT AS A PLACE THAT’S UNDER INVESTIGATION BY THE FBI AND OTHERS, BUT THIS IS A CHALLENGING JOB IN THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES. FIRST OF ALL, YOU’VE GOT A VERY LARGE PRISON POPULATION AND A LARGE POPULATION IN WISCONSIN COMMUNITIES. AND SO THE SORT OF MAINTENANCE OF ORDER, OF SAFETY, THE PROTECTION OF THE PUBLIC ARE ONGOING CHALLENGES WHEN YOU’VE GOT SORT OF A SYSTEM OF THAT DIMENSION WITH THE KIND OF NUMBERS THAT WE’VE GOT, OVER 20,000 INMATES AND UPWARDS OF 50,000, 60,000 PEOPLE ON PROBATION AND PAROLE. AND THEN YOU’VE GOT THE JUVENILE SYSTEM, WHICH OBVIOUSLY HAS ALWAYS BEEN DIFFICULT.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

NOW, GOVERNOR WALKER SAYS HE’S NOT TAKING ANY OPTIONS OFF THE TABLE FOR WHAT THE NEW SECRETARY CAN DO. WHAT KIND OF OPTIONS ARE OUT THERE?

WALTER DICKEY:

WELL, WHEN YOU SAY OPTIONS, IF YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT LINCOLN HILLS, I WOULD SAY THERE ARE PROBABLY A COUPLE. ONE OBVIOUSLY IS TO GET THE INSTITUTION STRAIGHTENED OUT, RUNNING THE WAY AN INSTITUTION OF THAT KIND SHOULD BE RUN. I WOULD IMAGINE THAT’S PROBABLY THE MAJOR CHALLENGE AND THAT’S PROBABLY WHERE MOST ENERGY IS GOING TO BE DIRECTED. I WOULD THINK A SECOND POSSIBILITY IS THAT YOU’D LOOK FOR SECURE CUSTODY IN OTHER PLACES. THAT MIGHT BE A MORE COMMUNITY-BASED SYSTEM, BUT WHERE YOU NEED EFFECTIVELY MAXIMUM SECURITY OR SOMETHING CLOSE TO IT BECAUSE THERE’S A PORTION OF THE KIDS WHO REALLY NEED THAT LEVEL OF CUSTODY. THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE IN SMALLER UNITS. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I DON’T KNOW THAT THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF OPTIONS. THOSE ARE THE TWO MAJOR ONES, FIX IT OR START TO DIVIDE UP THE POPULATION AND START TO PUT THEM IN PLACES THAT ARE SAFE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

AND THEY ACTUALLY DID CLOSE DOWN AN OPERATION JUST A FEW YEARS AGO THAT WAS CLOSER TO SOUTHEAST WISCONSIN AND SHIPPED A LOT OF THOSE INMATES NORTH TO LINCOLN HILLS. DO YOU THINK THAT WAS A WISE MOVE GIVEN WHAT WE’VE SEEN? YOU TALKED BEFORE ABOUT A HISTORY OF ISSUES AT LINCOLN HILLS AND THE ISOLATION UP THERE.

WALTER DICKEY:

YEAH. SO ETHAN ALLEN WAS AN AGED INSTITUTION. I DOUBT THERE WERE VERY MANY OPTIONS BEYOND CLOSING IT BECAUSE, AGAIN, EVEN BACK WHEN I WAS SPENDING A LOT OF TIME THERE, THE COST TO REALLY REFURBISH THAT IN THE WAY THAT WOULD NEED TO BE REFURBISHED I THINK WOULD BE EXCESSIVE. SO I DON’T KNOW THAT CONTINUING THAT INSTITUTION, KEEPING IT OPEN, WAS REALLY A VERY VIABLE OPTION. AND IT’S TRUE THAT I THINK THE CORRECTIONAL POPULATION HAS BEEN DECLINING, AT LEAST THE MALE POPULATION HAS BEEN DECLINING. AND SO WHILE IT MAKES A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SENSE TO PUT THEM ALL IN ONE PLACE WHEN YOU’VE GOT THE BEDS AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF, I THINK THE DISTANCE FROM POPULATION CENTERS LIKE MILWAUKEE, RACINE, KENOSHA AND BELOIT WHERE A LOT OF THE KIDS COME FROM CAUSES ISSUES.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

NOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT A CULTURE PROBLEM AT LINCOLN HILLS, BUT THEY’VE ALSO HAD A LOT OF TURNOVER. DO CULTURE AND TURNOVER GO TOGETHER, OR ARE THOSE OPPOSED?

WALTER DICKEY:

NO. SO IN TALKING BEFOREHAND I MENTIONED MY MEMORY OF SOME OF THE ISSUES WE HAD WHEN WE WERE THERE AND I THINK CULTURE PROBLEMS WOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE WAYS I WOULD HAVE CHARACTERIZED THEM. I THINK THERE’S A RIGHT MIX OF STABILITY IN A STAFF AND TURNOVER. WHEN I SAY TURNOVER, I MEAN A COUPLE DIFFERNT THINGS. ONE IS SIMPLY TRANSFERS. ANOTHER ONE IS OPPORTUNITIES FOR PROMOTION. AND WHEN YOU’VE GOT A SINGLE JUVENILE INSTITUTION AND YOU’RE BASICALLY LOCKED INTO THAT JUVENILE SYSTEM, THE OPPORTUNITIES TO PROMOTE OR TO TRANSFER ARE LIMITED. IT’S TRUE YOU CAN MOVE OVER INTO THE ADULT SYSTEM, BUT THAT’S NOT NECESSARILY SUCH AN EASY TASK. SO I THINK A REAL CHALLENGE IS TO TRY TO HAVE AN ALIGNMENT OF THE RIGHT KIND OF TURNOVER AND THE RIGHT NUMBERS, BUT WITH A LEVEL OF STABILITY THAT KEEPS THINGS STABLE, BUT ALSO FRESHENS THINGS WITH NEW IDEAS AND NEW PEOPLE AND FRANKLY WITH NEW OPPORTUNITIES.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A TRICKY BALANCE.

WALTER DICKEY:

IT CERTAINLY IS. AS I SAID, 30 YEARS AGO WE HAD ISSUES UP THERE AND TO A GREAT EXTENT I THINK THOSE ISSUES WERE A FUNCTION OF TOO LITTLE TURNOVER. WE HAD PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN THERE SINCE THE OPENING OF THE INSTITUTION. THEY’D GOTTEN INTO RUTS AND THEY NEEDED FRESHNESS AND NEW IDEAS AND THEY DIDN’T REALLY SEE OPPORTUNITY. I DON’T KNOW THAT THAT’S THE ISSUE NOW, BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE NEED FOR THE KIND OF MIX THAT I JUST DESCRIBED.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

NOW, DEMOCRATS AND UNION LEADERS ARE SAYING THAT ACT 10 IS PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS WE’RE SEEING ACROSS CORRECTIONS, THAT THE REGULAR WORKERS HAVE LOST THEIR VOICE AND MANAGEMENT IS DISCONNECTED FROM THAT. HOW DO YOU SEE THAT PLAYING OUT TODAY? AND HOW IMPORTANT WAS IT FOR YOU TO HEAR FROM UNION LEADERS WHEN YOU WERE CORRECTIONS SECRETARY?

WALTER DICKEY:

IT’S TRUE. WE MET PERIODICALLY WITH UNION FOLKS AS DID PEOPLE IN THE INSTITUTIONS. I’M NOT SURE THAT I WOULD SAY IT’S A UNION MANAGEMENT ISSUE. I THINK ANY INSTITUTION OF THAT SIZE, ANY SYSTEM LIKE THE CORRECTIONS INSTITUTION, HAS GOT TO HAVE DIALOGUE GOING ON BETWEEN THE LINE WORKERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN MANAGEMENT AND RUNNING THE INSTITUTIONS. AND IT’S REALLY SORT OF UNTHINKABLE TO ME THAT THERE ISN’T COMMUNICATION OR EFFORTS TO HAVE COMMUNICATION OF THAT KIND, WHETHER THERE’S AN ACT 10 OR NO ACT 10, BECAUSE I DON’T THINK ANY RESPONSIBLE CORRECTIONAL SYSTEM CAN EXIST WITHOUT DIALOGUE GOING ON BETWEEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CARRYING OUT THINGS AT A LINE LEVEL AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN MANAGEMENT. AND, AGAIN, I DON’T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE INSTITUTION TO KNOW WHETHER THERE’S BEEN A BREAKDOWN OF THAT. I’D BE RELUCTANT TO ASCRIBE IT TO ACT 10 OR ANYTHING ELSE. IT COULD JUST BE PEOPLE ARE DOING BUSINESS IN WAYS MAYBE THEY SHOULDN’T BE. BUT I HAVE NO REAL WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER THAT’S ACTUALLY TRUE.

ZAC SCHULTZ:

THANK YOU FOR THE INSIGHTS YOU’RE ABLE TO PROVIDE TODAY.

WALTER DICKEY:

GLAD TO BE OF HELP.