Here & Now

First Look: Pocan On Trump Address, Relationship With Russia

Donald Trump:

We want all Americans to succeed but that can’t happen in an environment of lawless chaos. We must restore integrity and the rule of law at our borders.

[applause]

Frederica Freyberg:

President Trump talking lawless chaos. We check in now with the opposite side of the aisle with Democratic U.S. Representative Mark Pocan. He brought a college student to the address. Lupe Salmeron immigrated to Wisconsin from Mexico 12 years ago and is undocumented but received deportation exception under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. Congressman Pocan joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Mark Pocan:

Absolutely. Glad to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:

Why did you bring Lupe to the address?

Mark Pocan:

There’s a lot of different angles you could go to try to raise awareness but this is one issue where literally we’re tearing families apart who’ve been here for decades. In Lupe’s case, she’s been here for a dozen years. When we go and do what is starting the happen with the ICE raids and deportations and building the wall, we’re starting to put a fake narrative out there about people who are hard working in this country, want to be citizens and we had a bipartisan bill a couple of sessions ago to do just that and now we’re going in a completely different direction based on fear in order to kind of prove why he got elected. I think that’s not clear enough. You can’t destroy families just because it somehow addresses your political narrative.

Frederica Freyberg:

Switching directions. What is your reaction to Attorney General Sessions’ recusal?

Mark Pocan:

I'm glad that at minimum we’re getting the recusal. But honestly if you lie to the American people under oath you can be prosecuted if you’re an individual. At minimum he should be resigning. This is something where you can’t act like I didn’t remember this conversation. Oh yeah, I did have this conversation. He lied directly in testimony under sworn testimony to Al Franken as he asked questions, a senator from Minnesota. And more importantly I think is just this issue. This is an issue that’s not going away. There’s so much more coming out how the Russians interfered with our elections. I’ve read the classified report. I’ve asked on the floor of Congress — if they are so sure there’s nothing here, then declassify that report because I know what I read. And supposedly that’s what the president’s read. There is more information there and it’s not the hacking at the DNC. I could care less. People wrote dumb things in email and that got out, that’s not what changes elections. There’s more things that have happened and I think it’s very disingenuous to the point of questionable why they would say things like they’re talking about lifting sanctions and other things and now we’re finding all these people had all these meetings from the Trump Administration and the campaign with Russian officials. There’s more than smoke. There is a big forest fire here and we need to let the American people know about it.

Frederica Freyberg:

President Trump calls this a political witch hunt.

Mark Pocan:

I would call it a political witch hunt if I was in the middle of something like this as well. He’s trying to find subterfuge wherever he can to try to confuse the issue. The bottom line is 17 different intelligence agencies came out with a unified report that said the Russians interfered with our elections. I’ve read that report. There’s far more even than has come out so far. Then all this other information now is coming out that’s not in some of the various intelligence reports about his campaign officials and his administrative officials having all these connections with Russia and whether it be about the interference in the election or the issue of sanctions or the issue of the fact we haven’t seen his tax returns we don’t know how much business involvement he has in Russia. The American people just need to know the very basics about this before we can even move on to things like the Affordable Care Act and tax reform and other issues. This is something that goes way deeper than Democrat, Republican politics. This is something that’s –inside the beltway is one way. I’m from Wisconsin. I’m not from inside the beltway. Here if you lie, you lie. It’s not how — what version of lying is what they always debate about in D.C. And when a country like Russia comes in, interferes with our elections, that should bother everybody. I give people like John McCain and others credit because they’re saying that. But the fact that Donald Trump acts like nothing happened makes me even more suspicious of how much he knows and when he knew about it.

Frederica Freyberg:

What about other people across the aisle, your peers, are they taking this as seriously as you are?

Mark Pocan:

More and more are as more information comes out. So I think at first they also were told there is nothing here to look at. Nothing here to look at. But now you find out the son-in-law of the president met with Russian officials at the Trump Tower after having them come in the back door. You’re finding out that Attorney General Sessions now suddenly after explicitly saying he didn’t meet with Russian officials, oh yeah, he did. We’re starting to find this avalanche of information like this. Something’s extremely suspicious by Wisconsin Midwestern standards and I think that we have to get the truth for the people.

Frederica Freyberg:

On the Affordable Care Act, I wonder if the time has come for Democrats to kind of face the reality that this is being repealed and they are working to replace it with President Trump saying quote I am calling on all Democrats and Republicans in the Congress to work with us to save Americans from this imploding Obamacare disaster.

Mark Pocan:

First of all I don’t know if it’s an imploding disaster. They’re trying to help create that narrative around it. If you listened to the speech, yes he had a different tone but he still said there is an immigrant around every corner trying to attack you with the Affordable Care Act. He watches too much Mad Max I think when he gave that clip you played at the beginning of the interview. We all know there has to be changes to the Affordable Care Act. The problem is they want to repeal it without really a replacement. And supposedly this week we’re going to see some language. But they won’t have a hearing on it before the mark-up. They’re not going to do any kind of public exposure of the bill. Again that is the wrong way to do it. We had a lot of debate around the Affordable Care Act when it came together. And I would argue — I wasn’t there when it happened and it wasn’t a perfect process but there was plenty of public review and debate which we’re not seeing on whatever they’re going to come up with next.

Frederica Freyberg:

Let me ask you about some of the prongs we’re hearing about and have heard about for a while. Those include tax credits based on age versus these kind of subsidies that Obamacare had, based on income. What is your opinion of those kinds of tax credit?

Mark Pocan:

You have to have the money to be able to afford health insurance so the subsidies at least helps you buy it on a monthly basis. Tax credits don’t necessarily work in the same way and it’s not going to be as clear. They’re also talking about health savings account which are great if you have lots of money. But again it’s not for the average middle class family or someone trying to aspire to be in the middle class. They talk about things like buying across state lines. We know that’s not proven to provide any savings. My measurement is, is this going to provide — protect the healthcare that everyone has right now, provide increased levels of healthcare and make it more affordable? I don’t think any of those levels right now are being addressed by the plan they’re roughly talking about.

Frederica Freyberg:

What happens to those in Wisconsin just over the poverty line that were encouraged to sign up in the marketplace when we didn’t take expanded Medicaid in any of these kinds of replacement plans?

Mark Pocan:

They're the ones that are going to fall through the holes in this plan because there’s not going to be a safety net for them. Even though they keep telling us people will have coverage, it’s going to be that they’re offered a plan for coverage but not that they’re going to be covered. We really need to have a thorough review of what they’re going to put out there. And that’s why when they’re fast tracking this without any kind of hearings or anything, again it just makes me suspicious. My Wisconsin Midwest common sense is like ringing all sorts of bells when they are trying to move it this fast when for six years they’ve had no plan and now in one week they’re going to come up with a plan. It just doesn’t pass the smell test.

Frederica Freyberg:

All right. Representative Mark Pocan. Thanks very much.

Mark Pocan:

Absolutely, thank you.