FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THERE ARE THREE WORDS ONE OF THE MOST OUTSPOKEN LEADERS OF THE “NEVER TRUMP” MOVEMENT, MILWAUKEE CONSERVATIVE TALK RADIO HOST CHARLIE SYKES, NEVER WANTED TO UTTER. THOSE THREE WORDS? PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP. SO TONIGHT HIS REACTION, HOW HE THINKS IT HAPPENED AND HOW HE THINKS IT WILL GO. CHARLIE SYKES JOINS US FROM MILWAUKEE. AND THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

CHARLIE SYKES:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AT WHAT POINT ON ELECTION NIGHT DID YOU REALIZE THAT HE WOULD IN FACT BE PRESIDENT?

CHARLIE SYKES:

GEE, I DON’T KNOW. ALL NIGHT LONG YOU KEPT THINKING THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT AS SOON AS IT BECAME OBVIOUS THAT VIRGINIA WAS NOT BEING CALLED, I BEGAN TO THINK THAT MAYBE SOME OF THESE MODELS WERE NOT WORKING. BUT I THINK A LOT OF US, BECAUSE IT WAS SO INCONCEIVABLE THAT AMERICANS WOULD ELECT DONALD TRUMP, WE DIDN’T THINK IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE, SO WE TOLD OURSELVES AND OTHERS THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. OBVIOUSLY IN RETROSPECT THERE WAS A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE MISSED AND GOT WRONG.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT WAS AND WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE REALITY?

CHARLIE SYKES:

YOU KNOW, PART OF ME IS STILL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS HAPPENED AND HOW WE COULD HAVE BEEN SO WRONG AND WHAT IT’S GOING TO MEAN FOR THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT. I’D EXPECTED WE’D BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION TODAY ABOUT HOW DO CONSERVATIVES REBUILD IN THE ERA OF HILLARY CLINTON. NOW OF COURSE THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY PICK UP THE PIECES. I KNEW “NEVER TRUMP” CONSERVATIVES WOULD BE SPENDING SOME TIME IN THE WILDERNESS. I DIDN’T THINK THERE’D BE SO FEW OF US OR THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE SO LONELY. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE A “NEVER TRUMP” CONSERVATIVE AFTER THIS ELECTION, THAT’S A VERY, VERY SMALL AND DWINDLING TRIBE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO THOSE AROUND PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP LIKE PAUL RYAN WHOM YOU LIKE AND SUPPORT ARE WORKING WITH HIM. NOW THAT DONALD TRUMP IS PRESIDENT, DO YOU ALSO SUPPORT HIM?

CHARLIE SYKES:

NO. I WILL SUPPORT HIM WHEN HE’S RIGHT AND I WANT TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE WHEN HE’S WRONG. THERE ARE SOME GOOD SIGNS. IF IN FACT WE HAVE THE RATIONAL, RESPONSIBLE, CONTROLLED DONALD TRUMP THAT WE’VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE, THEN MAYBE HE WILL BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH SOME THINGS. MAYBE HE WILL BE ABLE TO SIGN SOME OF THE LEGISLATION THAT PAUL RYAN IS GOING TO PUT TOGETHER. BUT WE’VE ALSO SEEN WHO DONALD TRUMP IS. AND THE PRESIDENCY DOES NOT CHANGE WHO YOU ARE. IT MAGNIFIES WHO YOU ARE. SO I THINK THERE IS THIS HOPE, WHICH MAY BE THE TRIUMPH OF HOPE OVER EXPERIENCE, THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL BE SOMEBODY DIFFERENT NOW THAT HE HAS ALL OF THIS POWER THAN HE HAS BEEN FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE. HOW LONG WILL HE BE ABLE TO WORK WITH PAUL RYAN? HOW LONG WILL HE STAY ON MESSAGE? I JUST DON’T KNOW. I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISIONS WILL BE WHO HE NAMES AS HIS CHIEF OF STAFF. IF HE NAMES REINCE PRIEBUS, I THINK THAT’S A VERY, VERY GOOD SIGN. IF HE GOES WITH SOMEBODY LIKE STEVE BANNON, I THINK THAT WE ARE IN FOR FOUR YEARS OF AN ABSOLUTE DUMPSTER FIRE. AND I THINK WE’RE GOING TO FIND THAT OUT VERY SOON.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT GOING FORWARD PIECE, BUT FIRST GOING BACKWARD WHY DIDN’T THE “NEVER TRUMP” PERSUASION RESONATE TO THE EXTENT THAT IT STOPPED HIM ESPECIALLY HERE IN WISCONSIN, DO YOU THINK?

CHARLIE SYKES:

WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT AFTER THE CONVENTION THERE WAS THIS OVERWHELMING SENSE AMONG REPUBLICANS THAT THEY HAD TO HOLD THEIR NOSE, THAT IT WAS A BINARY CHOICE. AND THE SENTIMENT WAS SO NEGATIVE ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON. AND SHE WAS SUCH A FLAWED CANDIDATE. THERE BECAME TREMENDOUS PRESSURE THAT OK, EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP MIGHT BE TRUE. YES, HE SAYS THIS ABOUT THE DISABLED, ABOUT WOMEN, ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS BUT HE'S NOT HILLARY CLINTON. AND SO I DO THINK IT WAS KIND OF A REFLECTION OF THE INCREASING TRIBALIZATION OF AMERICAN POLITICS WHERE HE’S OUR GUY AND NO MATTER HOW BAD HE IS, HE’S GOT TO BE BETTER THAN HER. I THINK THERE WAS TREMENDOUS PRESSURE. IN THE END, MOST REPUBLICANS DID COME HOME. AND NOW THEY DON’T HAVE THE “BUT HILLARY” ARGUMENT. WE’RE GOING TO FIND OUT WHAT WE’VE GOTTEN.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, WHAT’S YOUR SENSE WHETHER ESTABLISHMENT REPUBLICANS CAN AND WILL WORK ON HIM — WORK WITH HIM ON PRIORITIES OF HIS, LIKE BUILDING A WALL OR INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING?

CHARLIE SYKES:

WELL, I DON’T KNOW. THE BUILDING THE WALL WAS ALWAYS ONE OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, BIZARRE PROMISES HE MADE. WHO’S GOING TO PAY FOR THAT? WHAT ARE THE LOGISTICS OF BUILDING THAT BALL? WE’RE NEVER GOING TO BUILD A WALL ACROSS THE BORDER. INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING, AND HE’S TALKED ABOUT SPENDING A TRILLION DOLLARS. THAT IS A DEMOCRATIC INITIATIVE. WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CONSERVATIVES SAY HEY BY THE WAY, WE ARE ACTUALLY CONSERVATIVES. WE OUGHT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEBT AND THE DEFICIT. WE’RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT. WHAT HAPPENS? DOES DONALD TRUMP THEN BREAK WITH THEM? DOES HE UNLEASH THE FLYING MONKEYS OF BREITBART TO ATTACK THEM? DOES HE GO BACK TO WAR WITH PAUL RYAN? DOES HE MAKE A DEAL WITH THE DEMOCRATS? I DON’T KNOW. REPUBLICANS RIGHT NOW ARE CELEBRATING AND I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT THE REALITY IS THAT DONALD TRUMP REMAINS A DEEPLY FLAWED, DEEPLY UNPOPULAR FIGURE. AND RIGHT NOW HE IS THE FACE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE FACE OF CONSERVATISM AND THAT’S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM. IT’S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE HE HASN’T CHANGED AND THOSE ISSUES HAVE NOT GONE AWAY, EVEN WITH ALL THE KUMBAYA SINCE TUESDAY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

CHARLIE SYKES, WE LEAVE IS THERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

CHARLIE SYKES:

THANK YOU.